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Source: (consider it) Thread: Anyone know any 'cured' gay folk?
Jane R
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orfeo:
quote:
Because gluttony wouldn't be nearly as bad a sin, right?
Well, you're unlikely to catch an STD from a box of chocolates...

Strange how nobody seems to be interested in preaching sermons on the sin of theobromine addiction.

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orfeo

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He's hardly doing his cause any good. "Look, see how fit and healthy I was, then I developed some hatred for my sexuality and solved that by comfort eating until I couldn't fit in my pants any more. PRAISE JESUS!"

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
the sin of theobromine addiction.

Are you addicted to air? Are you addicted to water?
Chocolate is not an addiction, but a vital resource for mind and body.

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Starlight
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Well, you're unlikely to catch an STD from a box of chocolates...

Except that getting overweight puts you at higher risk of diabetes, which is worse than HIV.
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Jane R
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lilbuddha:
quote:
Chocolate is not an addiction, but a vital resource for mind and body.
...well, that was sort of my point. You can live without it, but then life becomes grey and dull.

We'd probably get more sermons about overindulgence in chocolate if ministers confined themselves to preaching about sins they themselves were tempted to commit.

[ 19. June 2014, 08:27: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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The5thMary
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I guess it depends on what food the ex-Gay eats. Kielbasa, 12 inch hot dogs, foot long salami...

[Killing me]

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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Whatever happened to spotted dick? [Ultra confused]

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Dennis the Menace
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Whatever happened to spotted dick? [Ultra confused]

A good dose of penicillin usually fixes that!!

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ToujoursDan

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One of the stars of the "ex-gay" movement has repudiated it. Former 'Ex-Gay' Activist Backs Away from Past, Now Supports GLAAD

She said:

quote:
"Many people I knew suspected all along that change— true change where all same-sex attractions disappear or become rare and incidental, and heterosexual attractions take their place — never happened," she explained. "I can say I’ve never met an 'ex-gay' man I thought was not still attracted to men, and would not go back to gay relationships under the right circumstances. One of my colleagues tried to fix me up with an 'ex-gay' man when I was still single. I said, 'No way. I have no interest in dating an ex-gay man. I don’t trust that they’re actually ex-gay.' "


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Augustine the Aleut
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I have friends (2 lesbian, 1 male gay) who have married persons of the opposite sex. Apparently, the persons they found were of an unsuitable sex, but they are willing to overlook the anomaly. One of the lesbians makes it quite clear that she is still a lesbian, just married to a man. However, I do not think that any of them would say that they are cured or changed.
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L'organist
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A dear friend married someone who she later discovered had been 'cured' - done through something called Deliverance Ministry??? Anyway, whatever was done was through some church-type outfit.

Problem was the marriage lasted less than a month: not sure what tipped him back over the ledge but it was a situation of living under one roof as separate individuals for a couple of years before he found a job in a different part of the country.

Friend endured hell as people assumed she'd refused to follow him to his new post - and as he wasn't 'out' even to his family she felt unable to give the real reason for his move; so she just put up with the gossip and unpleasantness.

It took a further 20 years before he got around to telling his parents he was gay and a further 5 before he apologised to my friend for using her.

Apparently marriage was suggested as the final part of his 'cure' and so he found her and proposed.

I think we can safely take it that his 'cure' didn't work.

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I think we can safely take it that his 'cure' didn't work.

Now, now. Let's not jump to conclusions. If it was done "in Jesus' name", it must have worked. Perhaps the poor man was subsequently demonised by a spirit of gayness?

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SvitlanaV2
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Putting aside the medical or psychiatric value (or otherwise) of these treatments, the most obvious problem, ISTM, is that the potential wife, who is meant to be part of the cure, isn't told what she's getting into. How can she 'play her role' if she doesn't have a clue what's going on?

Women are usually accused of marrying men and then trying to change them. It's a bit unfair to marry a woman in the expectation that she'll change your sexuality, but then deny her the thrill of knowing what a whopping great 'project' she's going to have on her hands. It's shocking if church leaders are actually advising these men to keep this information secret from their future wives. Would any of these church leaders happily give their own daughters in marriage to men who had secretly been 'cured' of being gay?

I don't know if anyone's mentioned lesbians on this thread. There are fewer (adult) lesbians than gay men in the church to start with so I suppose evangelical churches don't have as many of them to 'work on', but I wonder how it works out when they deliberately marry men as part of some sort of 'cure'.

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know if anyone's mentioned lesbians on this thread. There are fewer (adult) lesbians than gay men in the church to start with so I suppose evangelical churches don't have as many of them to 'work on', but I wonder how it works out when they deliberately marry men as part of some sort of 'cure'.

It's still just as messy.

I knew a guy (ordained) of charismatic evangelical conviction. His wife (of some years) "came out" and moved in with another woman. The children were highly confused and angry. The husband was utterly dumbfounded. The church members were appalled.

It turned out that she had always known that she was a lesbian but had tried to "cure" herself by marrying a devout Christian training for the ministry.

(The whole story took a tragic twist some months later when the woman she moved in with committed suicide, partly (I suspect) as a result of the intense scrutiny that the relationship was under and that she was regarded by the church members as having "corrupted" the minister's wife.)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

I don't know if anyone's mentioned lesbians on this thread.

Yeah, it has been discussed. Mostly by straight men, as per usual.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

There are fewer (adult) lesbians than gay men in the church to start with so I suppose evangelical churches don't have as many of them to 'work on', but I wonder how it works out when they deliberately marry men as part of some sort of 'cure'.

Well, I think it a different case. Women in conservative churches have long been "encouraged" to be submissive. In this culture, little attention has been given to how, or even what a woman thinks.
Culturally, this has been true as well.
But, in this day and age, I would think that anyone whose sexuality is unidirectional would fare poorly in a "cure" type of situation.

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ChastMastr
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I'm thinking of the episode of the US version of Queer as Folk in which Emmett and a lesbian he's met at an "ex-gay" group make themselves have sex with each other, and they're lying there saying, "Well... I guess I didn't absolutely hate it..." After which they both leave the group. [Killing me]

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Penny S
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from lilbuddha
quote:
In this culture, little attention has been given to how, or even what a woman thinks.
I feel moved to add "or even whether a woman thinks".
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:


I knew a guy (ordained) of charismatic evangelical conviction. His wife (of some years) "came out" and moved in with another woman. The children were highly confused and angry. The husband was utterly dumbfounded. The church members were appalled.

To be fair, I suppose this messiness might occur in any situation where the wife turns out to be gay, regardless of her motives on entering the marriage.

In the story you mentioned, were the two lesbians still mixing in church circles? It's rather odd that the church could have been 'scrutinising' them if they'd simply left, as most people would do in those circumstances. If they were so devoted to this particular church why did they make their relationship public, knowing what the reaction was likely to be?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There are fewer (adult) lesbians than gay men in the church to start with

Is there any evidence for that?

I remember a lot of unmarried women who lived together and went to church.

More so than gay men - not least because there are more women than men in churches in the first place.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There are fewer (adult) lesbians than gay men in the church to start with

Is there any evidence for that?

I remember a lot of unmarried women who lived together and went to church.

More so than gay men - not least because there are more women than men in churches in the first place.

The USA-focused research I've heard about claims that gay men are overrepresented in the church while lesbians are underrepresented. Women are overrepresented, but it's a certain type of heterosexual woman.

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question19.html

I do wonder to what extent lesbians are found in church leadership, or close to church leadership.

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leo
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That's interesting - thanks.

I was thinking back to m,y youth when there were a lot of 'misses' - but then many of these old ladies would have lost sweethearts in World War 1.

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Penny S
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Or simply never met them.

We used to be quite cruel about the single teachers who were odd (if not odd, no need to joke about them), little thinking that some of us were the third wave.

First wave - the obvious women who were not married because of WWI.
Second wave - the smaller group not married because of WWII, and possibly because they were born during and just after WWI (I'm not aware of a bulge phenomenon then).
Third wave - the girls born during and immediately after WWII, when because of the rarity of congress, more girls were born than boys. In the Bulge, as the men returned, more boys were born than girls. Not much commented on, but I have read that at one time dating agencies would not take women from that wartime cohort because of the shortage of men.
I wonder how that has influenced people's choice of partners in the years as those groups have grown up.

[ 08. August 2014, 21:57: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Starlight
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I have friends (2 lesbian, 1 male gay) who have married persons of the opposite sex. Apparently, the persons they found were of an unsuitable sex, but they are willing to overlook the anomaly. One of the lesbians makes it quite clear that she is still a lesbian, just married to a man. However, I do not think that any of them would say that they are cured or changed.

I am honestly very curious about the details of this, as much as you know and are willing to share... particularly their approximate age, their motivations for entering their marriages, how they feel about the legalization of gay marriage, and approximately how long their opposite-sex marriages have been going for and how they feel about them...? These people would obviously have an interesting perspective, and one I am interested in hearing.

I've only ever talked to one (40 years older than me) gay guy who had deliberately entered an opposite sex marriage while knowing he was gay, and I found it a fascinating conversation. He had felt at the time that there just wasn't any choice - you married a woman because that was what you did. Now, decades later, he and his wife are divorced, and he's living with a gay partner.

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Gracious rebel

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

R
I knew a guy (ordained) of charismatic evangelical conviction. His wife (of some years) "came out" and moved in with another woman. The children were highly confused and angry. The husband was utterly dumbfounded. The church members were appalled.

To be fair, I suppose this messiness might occur in any situation where the wife turns out to be gay, regardless of her motives on entering the marriage.

In the story you mentioned, were the two lesbians still mixing in church circles? It's rather odd that the church could have been 'scrutinising' them if they'd simply left, as most people would do in those circumstances. If they were so devoted to this particular church why did they make their relationship public, knowing what the reaction was likely to be?

Why is it odd for them still to be in church circles? I find that a rather dismissive sweeping statement. Just because I have realised I am a lesbian and have set up home with another woman, creating this "messy" situation you speak of, why should I also have to give up going to church - my faith is still an integral part of who I am. And why should i have to keep my relationship and my living conditions secret from my fellow churchgoers - have you any idea what a strain that is? And yes I am not speaking hypothetically, this is how my life is now.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Woman's Hour this week had two women discussing changes in sexual identity:
quote:
Rosie Garland identified as a lesbian for twenty years but is now in a relationship with a man, Jayne Headon-Meldrum was married to man for over 20 years and they had children together, but she now in a relationship with a woman. They join Jenni to discuss the reactions they have experienced to their changed sexual identities.
You can listen again to the conversation on the link above.

And then there's Tom Robinson, of Glad to be Gay fame who describes himself as "a gay man who happens to be in love with a woman" and added this verse to Gay to Be Gay:
quote:
Well if gay liberation means freedom for all,
a label is no liberation at all.
I'm here and I'm queer and do what I do,
I'm not going to wear a straitjacket for you.

following press coverage of his marriage and children.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

R
I knew a guy (ordained) of charismatic evangelical conviction. His wife (of some years) "came out" and moved in with another woman. The children were highly confused and angry. The husband was utterly dumbfounded. The church members were appalled.

To be fair, I suppose this messiness might occur in any situation where the wife turns out to be gay, regardless of her motives on entering the marriage.

In the story you mentioned, were the two lesbians still mixing in church circles? It's rather odd that the church could have been 'scrutinising' them if they'd simply left, as most people would do in those circumstances. If they were so devoted to this particular church why did they make their relationship public, knowing what the reaction was likely to be?

Why is it odd for them still to be in church circles? I find that a rather dismissive sweeping statement. Just because I have realised I am a lesbian and have set up home with another woman, creating this "messy" situation you speak of, why should I also have to give up going to church - my faith is still an integral part of who I am. And why should i have to keep my relationship and my living conditions secret from my fellow churchgoers - have you any idea what a strain that is? And yes I am not speaking hypothetically, this is how my life is now.
I'm not saying they shouldn't go to any church at all, but why would they hang around at a church that seriously disapproves of their relationship, and where people are feeling raw about a marriage that's been broken up? If they value their peace of mind that doesn't make any sense. If you live in a small community there's no option but to be 'scrutinised' by a particular group of people, but otherwise there are usually a few more options.

I suppose the strength of evangelicalism is that people are loath to tear themselves away, but it's a bit of a problem if people stay who'd do better somewhere else. Meanwhile, supposedly more tolerant churches sometimes find it hard to hold on to people. This lopsided situation will have unhelpful consequences, I think.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
We used to be quite cruel about the single teachers who were odd

Female teachers in England were not allowed to marry. They resigned upon marriage until 1994.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
]Female teachers in England were not allowed to marry. They resigned upon marriage until 1994.

1944, surely!
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
]Female teachers in England were not allowed to marry. They resigned upon marriage until 1994.

1944, surely!
Whoops -sorry - yes, that is what I meant.

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Horseman Bree
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Female schoolteachers having to resign upon getting married was pretty well the norm until the '50s. Increased mobility and consolidation of schools shifted that attitude quite quickly.

In the rural one-room-school days, a young lady moved on to another community to teach, since she probably had siblings or near relatives in her home district. This offered "new blood" to the new community. If she got married, she had to get out of the way to let the next potential partner (sacrificial victim?) come in.

And, in any case, a lady would be far too busy keeping house and kids to allow her any time to actually go out to paid work! In that dimly-perceived far off past, everyone was so happy in their ordained roles in life that no-one would question Things As They Are. A lady's job in life was to join the birthing-disaster roulette, not to take part in something as pointless as education.

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Penny S
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I was writing about the 1950s and 60s. I am not so old that I remember the teachers who had to leave when they married!
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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In the story you mentioned, were the two lesbians still mixing in church circles? It's rather odd that the church could have been 'scrutinising' them if they'd simply left, as most people would do in those circumstances. If they were so devoted to this particular church why did they make their relationship public, knowing what the reaction was likely to be?

The couple weren't mixing "in church circles" as such. But as they were still living in the area and the minister's wife was fairly well known, it was inevitable that they would bump across church members on a regular basis, especially when the ex-wife had care of the children and was picking them up from school or other activities.

(The couple couldn't move out of the area as they both had jobs which they couldn't afford to give up. I guess it would have been better for all concerned if they HAD left the area completely, but sadly financial realities rarely make that possible.)

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SvitlanaV2
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I see. It does sound like a fairly small area.

I live in a big city, where it must be easier for the ex-wives of clergymen to drift off the radar. It's also the case that in the church circles I know best, Methodist ones, ministers seem to move (or be moved) to a different circuit after getting divorced, so their congregations don't have a vivid and regular reminder of a painful situation every time they go to worship. They have a new minister to get to know, often someone with a family, and things move on.

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Gee D
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The father of the author E F Benson became Archbishop of Canterbury. After his father's death, his mother set up house with a daughter of the previous archbishop.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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SvitlanaV2
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Yes, I thought of her!

I think it was easier in those times, because people, Christians included, weren't generally expected to seek self-fulfilment and public honesty above all else. Nowadays, we feel obliged to break up a marriage and a family, and even undermine a religious community, in order to be true to our feelings in a very public way. Previous generations didn't necessarily believe that everything had to be lived out in the open. This isn't just about homosexuality, of course, but how we live in general. It has its pros and its cons.

[ 10. August 2014, 21:37: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Gee D
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The other example of course is that of the Ladies of Llangollen, who seem to have been accepted and in fact received some sort of Royal pension.. The fact that we know of these 2, but not of a general acceptance, suggests to me that things were not generally easier then than now (not saying that it's easy now, just easier than 100 or 200 years ago).

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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SvitlanaV2
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Not easy in the sense of being free to be 'out', no. But easier in the sense that the women concerned didn't feel obliged to be 'true to themselves' in a very open way. Women had duties above all, not feelings that had to be obeyed, nor a desire for their feelings to be publicly accepted.
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SvitlanaV2
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It's interesting to note that 'the first modern lesbian', Anne Lister, recognised similarities between herself and the ladies of Llangollen.

Anne was a very committed Anglican, according to Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Lister

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Curiosity killed ...

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There was the marriage of Arabella Hunt to Amy Poulter in 1680 which predates Annie Lister by nearly a century

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Dennis the Menace
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An acquaintance of ours has just come out of a 22 year relationship with a male partner as he says he is 'in love' with a female he has known for many years. By all accounts in Face Book this relationship has been consumated!!

I wonder was he ever gay or is it a phase he is going through? I asked him was he now 'straight' but said he didn't identify with 'labels'. It is the former partner I feel for now as he is rather shaken up by the whole experience.

One hears of 'becoming gay' after many years of marriage but not the other way round, so to speak.

Anyone else with similar experiences?

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"Till we cast our crowns before Him; Lost in wonder, love, and praise."

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Palimpsest
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I had a friend who was in a gay relationship for 4 years. He left his partner, joined a church and married a woman.

The term "LUG" Lesbian Until Graduation is used to describe those who are Lesbian until they have to go back to the family. Some of them are in relationships that are destroyed.

Now that Gay Marriage and Relationships are often tolerated, it seems like there would be less pressure to "be straight if you possible can" so people who are uncertain might opt for a gay relationship. Labels aside, it's not too different from the usual couple meets, couple splits up, couple moves on to new partners.

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Starlight
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Dennis,

Let's keep in mind that bisexuality is a thing: A person having a relationship with a man, and then having one with a woman, doesn't really need any kind of special explanation. And the Kinsey scale is somewhat helpful in thinking about this, as it reminds us that some people are predominately attracted to people of a given sex but do occasionally find people of the other sex attractive.

Probably a lot of people who think of themselves as "straight" or "gay" are really somewhere on the bisexual continuum and are actually attracted to the occasional person outside of the labels they have put on themselves. Those labels often represent generalizations. Also, no person has met everyone in the world so no one can be sure that there doesn't exist a person of the same/opposite sex out there somewhere that they would be attracted to.

In my own limited observation, people who say they don't identify with labels are usually people who I would describe as bisexual.

It's also not unheard of for a person's sexual orientation to change over time without any particular apparent reason. Various studies have found that it appears to happen over time to a very small percentage of people, more commonly women, who find they change from straight to bisexual or to gay or vice versa. (On average, there is no particular general trend towards or away from any particular sexuality over the course of people's lifetimes... ie we don't all become more bisexual as we age or less gay or anything like that) What people like and find attractive sometimes does change with time and experience.

quote:
One hears of 'becoming gay' after many years of marriage but not the other way round, so to speak.
Really? I've never heard of that. I've heard of a lot of older gay men who were forced to marry women in their youth because that's what was allowed, who subsequently have got divorced and come out. But that's quite different to the idea of what they find sexually attractive actually changing.

quote:
I wonder was he ever gay or is it a phase he is going through?
I hope that question is meant in jest.
A 22 year relationship is not "a phase". And no one would have spent 22 years in a same-sex relationship at a time when society was so anti-gay relationships unless they had strong same-sex attraction.

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Dennis the Menace
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quote:
I wonder was he ever gay or is it a phase he is going through?
quote:
I hope that question is meant in jest.
A 22 year relationship is not "a phase". And no one would have spent 22 years in a same-sex relationship at a time when society was so anti-gay relationships unless they had strong same-sex attraction.

Sorry I didn't meant the 22 year relationship as the phase, I meant the current one.

[ 12. August 2014, 22:42: Message edited by: Louise ]

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"Till we cast our crowns before Him; Lost in wonder, love, and praise."

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Liopleurodon

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It's a difficult issue because often people are seen as making some kind of ideological stance when all they've actually done is met someone and fallen in love. I identified as a lesbian until the age of 29. Now I'm "er sort of bi, I guess, maybe?" and married to a guy. I do feel very strongly that I don't want my sexuality to be used as a cudgel to hit someone else with. I don't want it to be "see? She got married! There is hope for you, sad gay person!" because I don't think that people can consciously change their sexuality, and I don't think there's any reason why they should. There's nothing like having been in serious gay and straight relationships to know that there really, seriously, isn't that much difference in how they operate.

Human sexuality is broad and wide and weird as all shit, basically. It can do things that you'd never expect. That doesn't mean that it responds to people's efforts to change it though, and I didn't actively change anything. I do not want to be used as an example of how people can mould their sexuality into something more socially acceptable. Unfortunately I've met many people who I know don't respect that wish.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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lilBuddha
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ISTM, there are a sizable percentage of people who do not question their own sexuality. They accept their initial attractions or societies expectations.
I am exploring this concept, it is new to me, so forgive me if I do not express it well.
I question myself constantly, about everything. The result being I am fairly certain my sexuality will not deviate or broaden. However, if one does not, I could easily see missing a component.
People are fascinatingly variable.

Well, as a species. Individually...

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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ChastMastr
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I'm pretty sure I could broaden my attraction-focus to women if I worked on it, but since I don't think this will go anywhere useful for me, any hypothetical "her," and the offspring I really don't think would be wise for me to beget (since for me it would need to aim for marriage and children), I don't really think it wise for me to go out of my way to do so.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Crœsos
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Bumping this thread because of development related to an earlier post.

quote:
New Jersey Superior Court Judge Peter F. Bariso Jr. granted a permanent injunction today [December 18, 2015] after an agreement by both parties requiring JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives for Healing) to shut down entirely and prohibiting founder Arthur Goldberg and counselor Alan Downing from engaging in any form of conversion therapy commerce in New Jersey.

The jury in the case found unanimously on June 25 that by offering services it claimed could turn gay people straight, JONAH committed consumer fraud and engaged in unconscionable commercial practices.

The therapy, based on the idea that LGBT people are sick and need to be cured, has been denounced by every major U.S. medical and mental health association. Not only can it be psychologically damaging, the American Psychological Association has noted that it promotes a climate of bigotry and discrimination against the LGBT community.

“JONAH’s conversion therapy program harmed countless LGBT people and their families,” said David Dinielli, SPLC deputy legal director. “JONAH peddled discredited, pseudo-scientific treatments to people who weren’t sick, who weren’t broken, and who needed nothing but love and support.”

This seems right. The objection that sank JONAH wasn't so much that it was dressing up religious dogma in a medical cloak (though it was undoubtedly doing that as well), but that its "treatments" were a mass of fraudulent quackery (which was also true) subject to the same law as other forms of fraud.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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L'organist
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I know someone who was advised (by a DDO, no less) to "marry himself straight": moreover, he was told that if it "worked" he'd be recommended for training but if he stayed single he wouldn't because he might be "at risk".

Of course it didn't work because he is a gay man. The outcome is a woman who was almost destroyed by feeling that she had "turned" her husband gay (he didn't tell her pre-wedding - again at the suggestion of the DDO) and a man who would have made a fine priest so disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the church he no longer goes.

I'd say that's a negative on him being "cured" of his gayness.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Joesaphat
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ISTM, there are a sizable percentage of people who do not question their own sexuality. They accept their initial attractions or societies expectations.
I am exploring this concept, it is new to me, so forgive me if I do not express it well.
I question myself constantly, about everything. The result being I am fairly certain my sexuality will not deviate or broaden. However, if one does not, I could easily see missing a component.
People are fascinatingly variable.

Well, as a species. Individually...

I agree, lilBuddha, my first boyfriend was simply not a highly sexed person. He grew up dating girls, because that's what everyone did, and simply concluded that sex wasn't all it's cracked up to be.

[ 09. March 2016, 07:12: Message edited by: Joesaphat ]

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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.

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Louise
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bumping up for housekeeping reasons

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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