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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What is it with some of these worship songs and the tinkly introductions? All it reminds me of is some US Medical soap opera - can't decide if its St Elsewhere or ER.
And just to add to the confusion I can only imagine is also the title of a song recorded by Lil'Wayne which is rather different from the worship song of the same title. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
How great is our God - "he wraps himself in light - I thought he is the light, no? Guess I need to relearn basic theology.
It's a quote from Psalm 104:2:
quote:
You are clothed with honor and majesty/wrapped in light as with a garment.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
How great is our God - "he wraps himself in light - I thought he is the light, no? Guess I need to relearn basic theology.
It's a quote from Psalm 104:2:
quote:
You are clothed with honor and majesty/wrapped in light as with a garment.
Thanks.
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
As the deer. Well past its sell-by date, involves singing lyrics about joy at a pace that rather suggests boredom, and stops paraphrasing just before the Psalm gets good. Actually, that last bit's probably a blessing at tha-at pa-ace...
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
As the deer. Well past its sell-by date, involves singing lyrics about joy at a pace that rather suggests boredom,
LOL, today we sang the Sanctus to a secular dirge about suicide. I started giggling at the contrast and missed a few beats trying to stifle it.
Someone mentioned Amazing Grace. I really hadn't thought of it as a like or dislike, maybe because it so familiar and I relate to words more than tune, and if it sounds a bit of a lament that's appropriate for the story behind it. But usually I hear it at an almost peppy pace.
And it's fun to invent descants to it, I enjoy playing with music, being easy to play with decreases the dislike factor.
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
What's really striking me, in contrast to many choir leaders, the "worship leaders" I have met have zero formal music training. The leader is self-taught, learns music (and guitar) by ear, and genuinely believes the only valid questions about any song are "do I like it?" and "is it addressed to God with words of praise?"
OK, you've just triggered my "Oh do fuck off" reflex, only partially redeemed by the fact that it's "in your experience" and so therefore can't be argued with.
That situation is no different to the majority of leaders I've experienced who are of a more traditional bent. In fact, if anything, the more modern lot (whilst often being irritating in other ways) are much more concerned about content and overall flow than the traditional "Let's pick this hymn because I know it" brigade.
It's a besetting sin for anyone regardless of style, musical training, or theology when they haven't been taught to think about these issues in a fuller way. And more effort goes into that within the contemporary scene (although not nearly enough) than the traditional IME.
I can't speak to choirmasters as I abandoned choir as soon as I could, and I suspect there will be a Pond Difference, but get off the snobby horse on that one. I do, however, worship in a church that straddles both traditional and contemporary boundaries, and serve with highly trained formal musicians as well as chord-sheet/ear only folk. All it has ever shown me is that most people are doing their best with what they have, and seeking to serve God and the church. And that most worship/service leaders are under-trained and under-developed in terms of what they're about, regardless of style/background/musicality. And that all congregations contain ignorant folk who unless something is entirely to their preconceived and generally ill-informed, narrow, closed-minded taste, it's wrong and Of Satan, and they'll get more delight in banging on about that than they will in meeting to worship God and encourage their brothers and sisters (that's not a passive aggressive dig at Belle Ringer, just a genuine tangential observation).
I'm not going to address the rest of the post because it will get far too hellish, and I'm almost certainly dragging off-Ship emotions into my responses on these issues, but a little bit more "love one another" and a little less smug superiority and passive-aggressive stereotyping might go some way towards a start. As well as a modest amount of personal study on What The Whole Bloody Point Is.
(Makes mental note to try harder to stop reading this thread, it's just not good for me yet like a junkie I keep coming back for one more hit).
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
As the deer. Well past its sell-by date, involves singing lyrics about joy at a pace that rather suggests boredom, and stops paraphrasing just before the Psalm gets good. Actually, that last bit's probably a blessing at tha-at pa-ace...
Yes, yes, yes! Been toying with the idea of suggesting this one for ages and never got round to it.
I don't mind modern worship songs and don't even mind the cheesy naff ones: "Shine Jesus Shine"? Great! "I the Lord of Sea and Sky"? No problems! Even "Our God is a Great Big God" - at least it tells children that they can be part of "God's amazing plan", rather than simply teaching them to be good and quiet. I wouldn't be able to lead worship at our church if I couldn't at least tolerate them.
But "As the Deer" sucks all the passion out of one of the most powerful psalms of all, turning it into "Well I wouldn't mind it if you were here, God - yeah, that'd sort of OK if you didn't mind" with a dose of borderline God-is-my-boyfriend as well. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
Sorry for the double-post, but meant to add that the tune's as wet and soggy as a rainy day in Manchester, or like one of those annoying, cloying children's cartoons were everything's bright and sunny and full of cream cakes until the bad people come and make it a bit cloudy, but then the heroes teach them all to be friends and everybody's happy again*.
And breathe...
Surely those words deserve an urgent, desperate tune - not the soppiness of "As the deer". Are there any other musical treatments of Psalm 42?
*Yes, we let our children watch too many of those...
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
But "As the Deer" sucks all the passion out of one of the most powerful psalms of all, turning it into "Well I wouldn't mind it if you were here, God - yeah, that'd sort of OK if you didn't mind" with a dose of borderline God-is-my-boyfriend as well.
There's another thing about it that unsurprisingly didn't make it into a message posted from a mobile phone in a pub after church last night. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) It only starts as Psalm 42, but then goes on a bit of a metaphor raid through scripture. I've spotted Proverbs 7.2 (naturally, the metaphor makes much more sense the other way around, as at Deuteronomy 32.10) and Psalm 119.72. Now, there's nothing wrong in that in itself, but it somewhat stretches it when this song is used as a metrical psalm.
Now, if you'll all excuse my going a bit Keryg for a moment, I'd argue that even taking the two stanzas and refrains that we number 42 leaves things hanging a bit too much at "where is your God?", rather than including 43 and getting to the punchline "Send forth your light and your truth, and let them lead me [...] Then will I go to the altar of God, to God the joy of my gladness" (neatly turning the complaint at Psalm 42.4). So if I were writing a paraphrase of that Psalm, I'd make sure I'd actually get there!
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Surely those words deserve an urgent, desperate tune - not the soppiness of "As the deer". Are there any other musical treatments of Psalm 42?
There are plenty of others, but they all tend to be dreadful in their own ways. The classic problem is metrical psalms with dozens upon dozens of verses carefully paraphrasing each line into at least one rhyming couplet, and occasionally an entire quatrain to get the stanza breaks in the right places. I vaguely recall a version to one of Mendelssohn's Songs without Words. Better tune, but still probably on the wet side.
It's one of those ones where it would be tempting to circulate "anonymous" lyrics...
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
...goes on a bit of a metaphor raid through scripture.
Ha ha ha ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
A few people have commented (here and in the All Saints thread) about songs containing sentiments that they can't sing with integrity - things like 'Oh, I feel like dancing', for example. Well I'd like to add Unfailing Love by my fellow Vineyarders in Nottingham (full lyrics towards the bottom of this page):
'We wait in hope for You
Our shelter and our truth
You are always faithful to Your word...
Unfailing love
You never let us down'
Difficult to sing when you're feeling abandoned and let down by God, or when someone close to you is suffering...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
South Coast Kevin
But you could say the same about most religious music; it praises God rather than expressing anxiety about abandonment.
African American spirituals and some of the Moody and Sankey hymns deal with pain and distress, but that kind of thing seems not to be popular in the British middle class charismatic churches, for obvious reasons.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
True that, SvitlanaV2. There are a few examples of modern worship songs that do deal in the messy reality of life though. One that springs to my mind is 'Shadows' by the David Crowder Band - song here and words here.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
True that, SvitlanaV2. There are a few examples of modern worship songs that do deal in the messy reality of life though. One that springs to my mind is 'Shadows' by the David Crowder Band - song here and words here.
But the music that accompanies the words (that get repeated over and and over) seems to be the same worship-style genre that cannot create a sense of contemplative reflection suggested by the lyrics.
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But you could say the same about most religious music; it praises God rather than expressing anxiety about abandonment.
But if one paraphrased Psalm 42/43 properly, it would do both! (And, yes, I know it's easier to take the first couple of verses of the Psalm and veer off into platitudes instead.)
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
But the music that accompanies the words (that get repeated over and and over) seems to be the same worship-style genre that cannot create a sense of contemplative reflection suggested by the lyrics.
At least, it doesn't create a sense of contemplative reflection for you. But each to their own, eh? In any case, a church or group of musicians could take this song and rework the music in whatever way they felt more appropriate; e.g. introducing a string quartet, or a folk guitar and flute, or a brass band...
Also, I wasn't meaning to hold up the song as a shining example of modern music-craft; it's just a song I like that has more realistic, life-is-sometimes-crap words than a lot of church hymns / songs. I know the music won't be everyone's cup of tea; what music is?!
On that point about reinterpreting hymns / songs in a different musical style, does anyone have examples they think are particularly effective? My church does a Christmas service most years, with traditional hymns played on electric guitar, drums and so on. I really like it. Are there other examples of reworkings that folks would like to share?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
But the music that accompanies the words (that get repeated over and and over) seems to be the same worship-style genre that cannot create a sense of contemplative reflection suggested by the lyrics.
At least, it doesn't create a sense of contemplative reflection for you. But each to their own, eh? In any case, a church or group of musicians could take this song and rework the music in whatever way they felt more appropriate; e.g. introducing a string quartet, or a folk guitar and flute, or a brass band...
Also, I wasn't meaning to hold up the song as a shining example of modern music-craft; it's just a song I like that has more realistic, life-is-sometimes-crap words than a lot of church hymns / songs. I know the music won't be everyone's cup of tea; what music is?!
On that point about reinterpreting hymns / songs in a different musical style, does anyone have examples they think are particularly effective? My church does a Christmas service most years, with traditional hymns played on electric guitar, drums and so on. I really like it. Are there other examples of reworkings that folks would like to share?
Normally I blanche at such reworkings, but honourable mention to http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HCY-Bi1_IYI
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
But the music that accompanies the words (that get repeated over and and over) seems to be the same worship-style genre that cannot create a sense of contemplative reflection suggested by the lyrics.
At least, it doesn't create a sense of contemplative reflection for you. But each to their own, eh? In any case, a church or group of musicians could take this song and rework the music in whatever way they felt more appropriate; e.g. introducing a string quartet, or a folk guitar and flute, or a brass band...
Also, I wasn't meaning to hold up the song as a shining example of modern music-craft; it's just a song I like that has more realistic, life-is-sometimes-crap words than a lot of church hymns / songs. I know the music won't be everyone's cup of tea; what music is?!
On that point about reinterpreting hymns / songs in a different musical style, does anyone have examples they think are particularly effective? My church does a Christmas service most years, with traditional hymns played on electric guitar, drums and so on. I really like it. Are there other examples of reworkings that folks would like to share?
Normally I blanche at such reworkings, but honourable mention to http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HCY-Bi1_IYI
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
It's one of those ones where it would be tempting to circulate "anonymous" lyrics...
Yes, have some "anonymous" lyrics. Total doggerel, of course, as merits this thread; but better to go off on an idly-creative tangent than just moaning about other paraphrases.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
South Coast Kevin
But you could say the same about most religious music; it praises God rather than expressing anxiety about abandonment.
African American spirituals and some of the Moody and Sankey hymns deal with pain and distress, but that kind of thing seems not to be popular in the British middle class charismatic churches, for obvious reasons.
We sang "What a friend we have in Jesus" the other day. A wonderful and totally non-crappy song, shot through with the pain of abandonment and defeat. Same goes for "Jesus lover of my soul"
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
and genuinely believes the only valid questions about any song are "do I like it?" and "is it addressed to God with words of praise?"
OK, you've just triggered my "Oh do fuck off" reflex...
That situation is no different to the majority of leaders I've experienced who are of a more traditional bent. In fact, if anything, the more modern lot (whilst often being irritating in other ways) are much more concerned about content and overall flow than the traditional "Let's pick this hymn because I know it" brigade.
You are quite right that plenty of hymn lovers are primarily interested in "do I like it." And there must surely be contemporary music leaders who work hard to choose songs that have appropriate content for the week.
I guess I've been lucky, all the choral leaders I've sung with - paid or volunteer leader, big church or small - have been music majors who took music selection seriously, and also tried to teach us some of why various songs were chosen or not. The few contemporary worship leaders I've known, I have not been lucky.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
and genuinely believes the only valid questions about any song are "do I like it?" and "is it addressed to God with words of praise?"
OK, you've just triggered my "Oh do fuck off" reflex...
That situation is no different to the majority of leaders I've experienced who are of a more traditional bent. In fact, if anything, the more modern lot (whilst often being irritating in other ways) are much more concerned about content and overall flow than the traditional "Let's pick this hymn because I know it" brigade.
You are quite right that plenty of hymn lovers are primarily interested in "do I like it." And there must surely be contemporary music leaders who work hard to choose songs that have appropriate content for the week.
I guess I've been lucky, all the choral leaders I've sung with - paid or volunteer leader, big church or small - have been music majors who took music selection seriously, and also tried to teach us some of why various songs were chosen or not. The few contemporary worship leaders I've known, I have not been lucky.
Oh, I definitely think that many (most, ime) contemporary worship leaders focus very strongly on song selection, but not in quite the same way as do more traditionally leaning church musicians. Whilst the traditional organist and/or choir leader might think primarily about the way that chosen hymns would fit in with the objective content of the service (liturgical season/lectionary reading/sermon topic), contemporary leaders would tend to be much more interested in the dynamic content of the service (where is the congregation "at" at the moment, what is God saying to us today, how do we help people to realise and express what is already potentially there in their hearts, how do we guide them safely and securely through their current pilgrimage.) Both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses, and require great skill and not a little prayer to do well. In the worst case, the former can become arid, didactic, and impersonal, whilst the latter can degenerate into emotional manipulation and "feelgoodism", cast adrift from objective truth. But it's certainly not true to say we don't think about these things.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Whilst the traditional organist and/or choir leader might think primarily about the way that chosen hymns would fit in with the objective content of the service (liturgical season/lectionary reading/sermon topic), contemporary leaders would tend to be much more interested in the dynamic content of the service (where is the congregation "at" at the moment, what is God saying to us today, how do we help people to realise and express what is already potentially there in their hearts, how do we guide them safely and securely through their current pilgrimage.) Both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses
Hmm, interesting, maybe the "blended service" is a third aproach - neither about reflecting the sermon/season nor about seeing where the congregation is at right now. Typically in "blended services (that I have attended) the CCM songs simply replace hymns in the song slots, neither reflecting the sermon or season, nor responding to the congregation. Verse, chorus bridge chorus chorus. Song is done, sit down, on to the next reading or prayer of the liturgy. It's a different use of music than the 30-45 minutes of "praise and worship" separated from the spoken (sermon/teaching) part of the morning.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I ran across this article disdaining use of a piano in church as too emotional.
organ yes, piano no.
What an odd argument:
“When it comes to the Church’s public worship of Almighty God and the reënactment of the sacrifice of Calvary, we have to make sure that the music is of a certain seriousness, loftiness, and dignity... I love the piano, but it is not a sacred instrument.”
Surely this is just personal opinion masquerading as objectivity? Nothing wrong with personal opinion, of course, but that's all it is; a personal viewpoint. Personally, FWIW, I find most organ music to be a droning dirge, very obstructive to my focusing on praising God. But that's just my opinion. There's nothing objectively bad about the organ as a musical instrument.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Meanwhile a quick Google search shows it is easy to find those who argue that it is un-Christian to have any kind of instrument in worship other than the human voice. Mostly AFAICT on the basis that the NT does not either describe or mandate the use of any musical instrument.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Meanwhile a quick Google search shows it is easy to find those who argue that it is un-Christian to have any kind of instrument in worship other than the human voice. Mostly AFAICT on the basis that the NT does not either describe or mandate the use of any musical instrument.
No shortage of OT references, though. It would be a bit strange if the NT Christians did not share, to some extent, a worship culture similar to that of the Jewish people of which, at least at first, they were a subset.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
To anyone who argues about only using the human voice for worship there is a simple answer:
Read Psalm 150. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I ran across this article disdaining use of a piano in church as too emotional.
organ yes, piano no.
What an odd argument:
“When it comes to the Church’s public worship of Almighty God and the reënactment of the sacrifice of Calvary, we have to make sure that the music is of a certain seriousness, loftiness, and dignity... I love the piano, but it is not a sacred instrument.”
Surely this is just personal opinion masquerading as objectivity? ...
I thought it just another personal opinion, but he quotes "Pope St. Pius X wrote in an official Church document (1903): 'The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.'"
I have no idea if other Popes have said otherwise, if not it's a personal opinion with a powerful backing in some circles.
Surprised me. Lots of local churches use piano because few people play organ anymore.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I thought it just another personal opinion, but he quotes "Pope St. Pius X wrote in an official Church document (1903): 'The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.'"
Here it is! Points 15-21 from 'Tra le Sollecitudini', indeed written by Pope Pius 10th in 1903. 'Noisy or frivolous instruments' - good grief. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
We sang "What a friend we have in Jesus" the other day. A wonderful and totally non-crappy song, shot through with the pain of abandonment and defeat. Same goes for "Jesus lover of my soul"
On the subject of Jesus, lover of my soul: Charles Wesley was a genius. A talented hymn writer would have written something obvious like 'give sight to the blind'. Wesley wrote 'lead the blind'. The hymn (at least in the four verse version as usually sung) ends up in a different place from where it sets out; or rather, it ends up in the same place looked at with different eyes.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Prowling "worship leader" blogs, I came across this instructional page for worship leaders which lays it all out including why the songs must have minimal content - unless the verses are few and simple, most people won't remember them all.
quote:
Do not distribute sheets with lyrics on them.
Why?
Never give people anything they can fidget with... The rustle of paper can be very distracting.
...If people are to read from the paper, the lights will have to be brightened, which breaks the atmosphere that has been built.
People often close their eyes during prayer. They will have to open their eyes to read the words on the paper. Concentration is broken and once again, atmosphere is lost.
Do not display lyrics on a screen. ...
Why?
...it makes people open their eyes, breaking concentration and atmosphere.
Not displaying lyrics also helps people memorize the verses faster.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Prowling "worship leader" blogs, I came across this instructional page for worship leaders which lays it all out including why the songs must have minimal content - unless the verses are few and simple, most people won't remember them all.
quote:
Do not distribute sheets with lyrics on them.
Why?
Never give people anything they can fidget with... The rustle of paper can be very distracting.
...If people are to read from the paper, the lights will have to be brightened, which breaks the atmosphere that has been built.
People often close their eyes during prayer. They will have to open their eyes to read the words on the paper. Concentration is broken and once again, atmosphere is lost.
Do not display lyrics on a screen. ...
Why?
...it makes people open their eyes, breaking concentration and atmosphere.
Not displaying lyrics also helps people memorize the verses faster.
In other words: Shut up and listen you poor, simpleminded buffoons! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
This is why I stay away from churches like that!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
why the songs must have minimal content - unless the verses are few and simple, most people won't remember them all.
quote:
Do not distribute sheets with lyrics on them.
Do not display lyrics on a screen. ...
In other words: Shut up and listen you poor, simpleminded buffoons!
Or "we do only simple songs your 6 year old can learn because worship should be solely emotional ("heart"), not at all intellectual ("mind") and getting rid of content is the best way to write easy to learn songs for people to enjoy with only heart no mind. La la la la, wo-oh wo-oh."
Apparently a lot of what I have objected to as poor writing and poor choices of songs is intentional. The assumed purpose of music, the why we sing together, is different. What is believed to constitute "worship" is different. The place - or non-place - of the human mind in worship and of emotions in worship is different. Not just different music style - whole lot more going on.
Open Letter from Brian McLaren:
quote:
Too many of our lyrics are embarrassingly personalistic, as if the whole gospel revolved around "Jesus and me." Personal intimacy with God is a priceless gift indeed... But it isn’t the whole story. In fact...it isn’t necessarily the main point of the story
Lots more in the open letter, ending with
quote:
And finally, can our lyricists start reading more good poetry, good prose, so they can be sensitized to the powers of language, the grace of a well-turned phrase, the delight of a freshly discovered image...[instead of] a monotonous recycling of plastic language and paper triteness.
open letter to worship songwriters
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
To anyone who argues about only using the human voice for worship there is a simple answer:
Read Psalm 150.
Ah, but that's pre-Pentecost.
The Church shouldn't have instruments like the Jews in the previous dispensation. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Mudfrog
The Church shouldn't have instruments like the Jews in the previous dispensation.
Because?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
quote:
posted by Mudfrog
The Church shouldn't have instruments like the Jews in the previous dispensation.
Because?
THEY say (not me of course) that after Pentecost when the church came into being there is no mention in the NT of worship with instruments. Don't blame me - we have brass bands!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
A church in my town does allow instruments to accompany singing - but only the piano. Apparently they do indeed have theological reasons for the piano being the only suitable form of music for worship ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
A church in my town does allow instruments to accompany singing - but only the piano. Apparently they do indeed have theological reasons for the piano being the only suitable form of music for worship
Are they concerned that any other form of music might lead to sex and hence, inevitably, to dancing?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Jade Constable
A church in my town does allow instruments to accompany singing - but only the piano. Apparently they do indeed have theological reasons for the piano being the only suitable form of music for worship
This is completely baffling.
If they want to be "biblical" and are determined in having a hammered stringed instrument they ought to be insisting on a dulcimer.
Meanwhile, what about the instruments mentioned in the OT: psaltery, cymbals, harp, lyre, shofar, organ, pipe, trumpet, etc, etc, etc ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
No idea what the argument is (I'm sure it's hilariously stupid). It's the favoured church of the CU though....
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
A church in my town does allow instruments to accompany singing - but only the piano. Apparently they do indeed have theological reasons for the piano being the only suitable form of music for worship
Are they concerned that any other form of music might lead to sex and hence, inevitably, to dancing?
They're not a church that forbids dancing.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Meanwhile, what about the instruments mentioned in the OT: psaltery, cymbals, harp, lyre, shofar, organ, pipe, trumpet, etc, etc, etc
Of course some of those are mentioned only in the context of the image which Nebuchadnezzar had set up, and are thus associated with pagan worship, not Judaeo-Christian.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
...
My church does a Christmas service most years, with traditional hymns played on electric guitar, drums and so on. I really like it.
Aaaarrgh nooooooo! ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
I can cope with disliking modern worship songs by thinking that at least some people find them helpful to worship. But to have the traditional hymns and carols that I really like singing fouled up, bastardised, and generally bashed around with is unbearable. It means that I'm not even allowed to worship in a style that I find amenable, and the tastes of others have to be imposed even on to what I prefer.
It's like artwork. I might not like modern art, and can't bear to look at it, but I can accept that others might appreciate it. But suppose I happen to like Rembrandt's works, and the modern art-lovers come along, deride them for being so old-fashioned, and slap a load of paint on them to 'modernise' them and make them 'contemporary', I think I would be justified in being very upset. OK, so I might be overstating the case in comparing old hymns to old master paintings, but the parallel is, I suggest, appropriate.
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
A. Pilgrim
But on the positive side, I suppose most churches will be doing a traditional thing at Christmas so it's not as though you won't be able to find something to your taste.
I myself sometimes wonder how worship-band churches manage at Christmas; it doesn't seem very authentic to be 'modern' the rest of the year and then suddenly go sub-Victorian in December! Maybe I should deliberately attend a charismatic service the Sunday before Christmas day to see what it's like.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I myself sometimes wonder how worship-band churches manage at Christmas; it doesn't seem very authentic to be 'modern' the rest of the year and then suddenly go sub-Victorian in December! Maybe I should deliberately attend a charismatic service the Sunday before Christmas day to see what it's like.
A surprising number of hymns can be done with a rock band... Come to my church's Christmas service and see what you think!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I myself sometimes wonder how worship-band churches manage at Christmas; it doesn't seem very authentic to be 'modern' the rest of the year and then suddenly go sub-Victorian in December! Maybe I should deliberately attend a charismatic service the Sunday before Christmas day to see what it's like.
A surprising number of hymns can be done with a rock band... Come to my church's Christmas service and see what you think!
They can be done, but that doesn't mean they're done well ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Big bolshy revivalist hymns work better with a band than anything older, unsurprisingly.
(former member of con-evo Anglican place that did a lot of hymns, but by a worship band - organ never ever used)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
A surprising number of hymns can be done with a rock band...
They can be done, but that doesn't mean they're done well
Oh yes, of course; Hark the Herald Angels with guitar and drums won't be everyone's cup of tea! (Though it absolutely works for me.) I was just saying that churches with what SvitlanaV2 called a 'modern' style certainly don't have to go 'sub-Victorian' at Christmas. Perfectly possible to keep the same style of instrumentation and service generally, IMO. I know it won't be to everyone's taste but I imagine people who want a 'traditional' Christmas service are unlikely to find their way to a modern-style church service.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Does anyone else have the echo of the Christmas muzak at their local supermarket ringing in their ears?
(We get pop versions of carols all through December and Christmas pop classics.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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