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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
The attempts from so many, to proof-text for either error or correctness are totally silly. Christmas carols are not theological documents.
No (except for "Hark the herald angels" and "Of the Father's heart begotten"). But I don't think they should mislead either.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
In defence of 'Mary, did you know?' here's Pentatonix rocking it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifCWN5pJGIE
Gorgeous. I don't care if shipmates find this song crappy: I don't.
Same goes for 'O, holy night'. Musically third-rate my arse. I was at a Cathedral Eucharist on Christmas Eve and the choir sang it beautifully. The lyrics are both profound and moving.
That's all for now. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I hate that bloody donkey!! It takes as long to play the carol as it did to make the original journey!!
I think maybe you are getting Little Donkey and Rutter's The Lame Donkey Song- the 5/4 one mixed up. I wish the Rutter donkey would move in with the Grand Canyon Suite donkey, and be never heard from again. That one is indeed many, many pages too long.
I think Little Donkey is just fine for the four and five year olds to sing at the Christmas Pageant. I like it.
Mudfrog, if you can hate the bloody donkey, I ask you to allow me the privilege to despise Mary, did you know...
The attempts from so many, to proof-text for either error or correctness are totally silly. Christmas carols are not theological documents.
I hate Little Donkey from the privileged position of playing it in a brass band. Just a chore to play it on cornet...
And as for your last comment about theology and Christmas carols not being theological documents, tell it to Charles
Sorry, didn't see BTF's post before I posted this.
[ 03. January 2015, 20:54: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Salicional
Shipmate
# 16461
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Posted
I find the music of 'Mary, did you know' mediocre at best, but the text is worse. How could Mary NOT have known? Gabriel told her, Elizabeth told her, Simeon told her. To suggest she didn't know seems rather like an insult to her intelligence.
Posts: 68 | From: near Lake Erie | Registered: Jun 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
can someone link to little donkey? I don't think I know it. Thanks.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
can someone link to little donkey? I don't think I know it. Thanks.
Where ignorance is bliss...
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Lovely - really reminded me why I retired. Was that the English Hymnal I saw burning in the grate?
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Salicional:
I find the music of 'Mary, did you know' mediocre at best, but the text is worse. How could Mary NOT have known? Gabriel told her, Elizabeth told her, Simeon told her. To suggest she didn't know seems rather like an insult to her intelligence.
erm... that he would walk on water? That he would heal the blind man and calm the storm?
Did Mary really understand all these things?
[ 08. January 2015, 19:52: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
can someone link to little donkey? I don't think I know it. Thanks.
Where ignorance is bliss...
You are correct. Ignorance was bliss.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Salicional:
...'Mary, did you know'... How could Mary NOT have known? Gabriel told her, Elizabeth told her, Simeon told her. To suggest she didn't know seems rather like an insult to her intelligence.
erm... that he would walk on water? That he would heal the blind man and calm the storm?
Did Mary really understand all these things?
She had minimal idea what she was getting into, the scene at the temple when Jesus was 12 shows that.
Israel expected a messiah and Mary probably expected as she had been taught by her culture - not the Messiah they got. Bring peace and justice (which surely would mean overthrowing Rome!) yes; walk on water and get killed and resurrected, not what anyone expected. Even when Mary was sure Jesus could provide for the wedding fest (what had she seen privately before that event?), I doubt she had any idea what was coming in the next few years.
I rather like the song, except that (like O Holy Night) it's overdone these days. (Speaking of overdone, last year I attended a Christmas Eve service that did NOT include Silent Night - refreshing!)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Salicional:
I find the music of 'Mary, did you know' mediocre at best, but the text is worse. How could Mary NOT have known? Gabriel told her, Elizabeth told her, Simeon told her. To suggest she didn't know seems rather like an insult to her intelligence.
erm... that he would walk on water? ...
Did Mary really understand all these things?
Some would seem to think she might have done
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(Speaking of overdone, last year I attended a Christmas Eve service that did NOT include Silent Night - refreshing!)
According to our pew bulletin, we were supposed to sing it after Communion, kneeling, with the lights dim. I groaned inwardly.
Our priest apparently forgot about it and went into the Post-Communion Prayer.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Is Little Donkey primarily only known in Britain, or primarily in the Commonwealth? I in the US had also never heard it (although I did just listen to it on YouTube and understand why it's so unpopular on this thread).
When was it written? Was it written to perform in worship or to play on the radio? Is it associated with any particular singer or band?
I would bash it but I do live in the country that gave us "Grandma got run over by a reindeer" - which isn't a Christian song per se but who knows there might be some church that uses it.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
When was it written? Was it written to perform in worship or to play on the radio? Is it associated with any particular singer or band?
It's for the children.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
"Shine, Jesus, Shine" has been our post-Communion response since Epiphany.
I've never been more eager for Lent.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) you poor thing!
Mind you, one of our small singing group wanted 'Colours of Day' yesterday, but our organist reckoned not many of the congo knew it, so he chose 'And can it be' instead....phew, what a relief!
Now of course I have *two* alternate earworms going in my head, something about Colours of shiny Jesus... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
"Shine, Jesus, Shine" has been our post-Communion response since Epiphany.
I've never been more eager for Lent.
I can imagine repeated renditions of Shine, Jesus, Shine being a very deep Lenten discipline (followed by I cannot tell/Danny boy for depth of discipline). I'd be begging for a scourging.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
You could always sing Sent forth by God's blessing (tune The Ash Grove) for light relief.
Or for even more scourging, add in a rendition of One more step along the world ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
I feel the need to confess a slight nostalgic moment on the "One more step" front....
I taught for several years in a special school and this was our School Hymn
I would have to play it on the guitar whilst all the pupils (aged 7-16) belted it out joyfully.
Does this place me completely beyond the pale, I wonder?!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
You could always sing Sent forth by God's blessing (tune The Ash Grove) for light relief.
...
Or perhaps one of the many other sets of verses that may be sung to that fine tune ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I feel the need to confess a slight nostalgic moment on the "One more step" front....
I taught for several years in a special school and this was our School Hymn
I would have to play it on the guitar whilst all the pupils (aged 7-16) belted it out joyfully.
Does this place me completely beyond the pale, I wonder?!
I really like 'One more step'. The lyrics are straightforward, and could apply to any Christian (certainly to me), whereas with some of the older hymns the words occasionally seem rather particular to the person who wrote them. This means you have to make more of an effort to read yourself into the context you're singing about.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
There are songs that are utterly fantastic belted out by 7 year olds backed by an enthusiastic guitar strumming that sound beyond naff on an organ with beautifully enunciated words.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
We used to sing One more step along the world at Toddler Church when children left - so moved up to school or moved away.
I'd agree with mdijon - I really didn't want to sing in church things that worked in Toddler Church. Unfortunately I walked into one service to find I was expected to lead the actions on He's got the whole world in his hands. No, I hadn't been consulted. Yes, I refused.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I've never associated 'One more step' with kids, which seems like a good thing, because a Sunday school vibe seems to be the kiss of death for hymns!
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Bad luck, One more step is in all the modern children's hymn books. I learnt it working in schools.
Btw - Toddler church =/= Sunday School - I'm referring to a midweek pram service with both parents and children. And it was one of the hymns the mothers all remembered from their school days.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Interesting. I never sang it at day school in the '70s, and it was never particularly associated with my life at Sunday school. The informal adult choir at my church used to sing it without any comment.
Maybe its kiddie connection is more of a CofE thing? I worshipped with the Methodists, and never attended a church school.
[ 08. February 2015, 13:11: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
My school used the English Hymnal and appropriate settings of the canticles by the likes of Stanford, Sumsion, etc.
I'm told there was a brief foray into something approximating Series 3 but they've gone back to a liturgy that sounds like 1928.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Meanwhile, although there was a piano at assembly for my primary school years, the rest of us plebs in the state sector were stuck with singing along with CDs, if there were any hymns at assembly. (Primary school only, no church services in any secondary I've been near and I've worked in a number of secondary schools)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
I quite like One More Step, which we had the other week (probably at our all-age service).
Completely differently on the other hand, among the lovely hymns this morning we had St Patrick's Breastplate and Jesu Lover of my Soul ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I've never sung One More Step at church - strictly a school hymn, in the category of Lord Of The Dance.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I've never sung One More Step at church - strictly a school hymn, in the category of Lord Of The Dance.
You've never sung Lord of the Dance in church?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
You've never sung Lord of the Dance in church?
I haven't, either. I'd join Pomona as ranking it strictly school assembly material, along with "when I needed a neighbour", which I have never sung in church either.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
We had a minister whom I'm sure had shares in the music copies of Lord of the Dance. Unfortunately, this meant we were faced with singing that drivel every Easter. Now that we have a new minister, I'm 'sad' to report that the music for LOTD seems to have become lost somewhere in the choir vestry.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I've never sung One More Step at church - strictly a school hymn, in the category of Lord Of The Dance.
You've never sung Lord of the Dance in church?
Definitely not. I've sung it at Beer & Hymns, which may count, but not at a standard church service. Perhaps this is down to UK schoolchildren singing hymns in school - some hymns get labelled as 'school assembly hymns' and don't get used in regular church services because of that. I would be very surprised if UK churches used it outside of a children's service/uniformed group service - except if a non-churchgoing couple used it at a wedding because they remember it from school.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Interesting. I never sang it at day school in the '70s, and it was never particularly associated with my life at Sunday school. The informal adult choir at my church used to sing it without any comment.
Maybe its kiddie connection is more of a CofE thing? I worshipped with the Methodists, and never attended a church school.
I sang it at school, and I never attended a church school. It seems to be a standard primary school hymn. I was at primary school (my secondary school never had religious services) in the mid-90s to 1999, so maybe it started being used later?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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mrs whibley
Shipmate
# 4798
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Interesting. I never sang it at day school in the '70s, and it was never particularly associated with my life at Sunday school. The informal adult choir at my church used to sing it without any comment.
Maybe its kiddie connection is more of a CofE thing? I worshipped with the Methodists, and never attended a church school.
I sang it at school, and I never attended a church school. It seems to be a standard primary school hymn. I was at primary school (my secondary school never had religious services) in the mid-90s to 1999, so maybe it started being used later?
We certainly sang 'One more step' in our non-church primary in the 70s. IIRC it was written specifically for children undergoing a particular life transition but I don't remember whether it was leaving primary or secondary school or confirmation.
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I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli
Posts: 942 | From: North Lincolnshire | Registered: Aug 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I've never sung One More Step at church - strictly a school hymn, in the category of Lord Of The Dance.
Now, I do remember singing 'Lord of the Dance' at school. But I'm sure I've sung it on other occasions since then. Not really at Methodist church services though.
BTW, it should be said that 'One More Step' is in the Methodist 'Hymns and Psalms' book (1983), which was the main Methodist hymnbook until the new one came out in 2011. HP doesn't have a distinct category for 'children's hymns'.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I seem to recall Rabbi Blue saying that when he visited Sydney Carter towards the end of his life, "One More Step" was one of the things he could remember.
When I searched for confirmation, I found this quote from a Rabbi Blue gig about the song: “That says everything about religion that I ever want to say,” he said.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
We had a minister whom I'm sure had shares in the music copies of Lord of the Dance. Unfortunately, this meant we were faced with singing that drivel every Easter. Now that we have a new minister, I'm 'sad' to report that the music for LOTD seems to have become lost somewhere in the choir vestry.
That shouldn't be a problem. Any half decent musician can play it by ear.
Given all the world of Christian Music Drivel why anyone would pick on the Lord of the Dance is beyond me. It's hardly Spem in Allium, granted, but it's hardly Dropkick me Jesus through the Goalposts of Life either.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What have you people against Bobby Bare's famous oeuvre?
At least it provides for the possibility of a sportsman having faith, albeit in rather simplistic fashion.
And its given many of us much innocent and wholehearted laughter over the years.
Lord of the Dance: can be found in a prominent position on the CofE's own wedding music suggestion page, along with other cringe-making numbers.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I don't see why it's so cringe-worthy. Possible a bit heretical and Shiva-esque but that's a different problem.
Maybe it's the way you are playing it. The Dubliners do a good version.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Back in Lincolshire many years ago the rector would discourage some material, including some recent hymns and songs for weddings, on the grounds that the copyright fees would be substantial.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
There's a song I like and dislike simultaneously.
We are marching in the light of God.
The lyrics:
We are marching in the light of God.
We are marching in the light of God.
We are marching in the light of God.
We are marching in the light of God.
We are marching, we are marching,
We are marching in the light of God.
We are marching, we are marching,
We are marching in the light of God.
Peppy, cheerful fun, but does it actually say anything?
Praise band does it often - two acoustic guitars hitting chords, straight rhythm, no vocal harmony.
I like it as done with instrumental and rhythmic interest but I keep wondering where are we marching, why are we marching?
Am I being too literal, just relax and enjoy the rhythm?
At least it's easy congregational singing, unlike a lot of songs these days!
[ 10. February 2015, 15:33: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I love this one too, I'm afraid! I tend to sing it or hear it sung in black or multicultural congregations.
It seems suitably meaningful to me: it says that God is always with us, no matter what we're doing. Not terribly deep or theologically complex. But let's be honest: we Christians are such a pluralistic bunch these days that it seems a bit hypocritical for us to demand too much theological complexity in our religious music. It proves our intellectual superiority if we understand complex theological ideas, but it certainly doesn't prove our orthodoxy, or the orthodoxy of our group.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Surely one could even worship without saying any words at all or use a much shorter phrase over and over. (I'm thinking taize here for instance, and have often found taize music useful in my personal devotions.)
No, if I were objecting to We are Marching, I would object to the way it's sung in the average white church. It feels like it would do much better with more movement and energy, which is probably how it was originally done. At the end of worship at the United Methodist church I attend, we have a time I call Joyful Racket where all the children, and any adults who want, get a rhythm instrument. That sort of energy does very well for Siyahamba. (Same title, original language, and that's how I think of the song since I prefer the sound of the untranslated words.)
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Surely one could even worship without saying any words at all or use a much shorter phrase over and over.
Why not? "I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will sing praise with the mind also" - St. Paul (1 Cor. 14:15). Some worship (especially IME in Reformed churches) can be terribly "worthy and wordy", there is a place for simply exalting in spirit as well.
[ 10. February 2015, 17:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Am I being too literal, just relax and enjoy the rhythm?
At once too literal and not literal enough. It's a South African song and there's a huge emotional impact to get literal about.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I must admit that I try to avoid singing this these days, not least because I first came across it some 25 years ago, and it's not the kind of song that ages well.
I can see how it might still suit its original context in SA, but it seems increasingly false for comfortable, white, middle-class congregations to sing it. I think part of the problem for me is also connected to where and when I first sang it. I was in a charismatic Baptist church, at a time when there was a huge surge of triumphalism. We were "claiming" the Kingdom and being "prayer warriors". Well, others were. I was increasingly standing in the corner, feeling rather out of place. This song was used a lot back then because it expressed the rather militaristic mood of the time. It takes me back to that time and the unrealistic expectations that were being stoked up.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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