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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I don't know off the top of my head which hymn book that that is from, but it may be an attempt to gain a copyright in the amended version.
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I don't know off the top of my head which hymn book that that is from, but it may be an attempt to gain a copyright in the amended version.
It's from Together in Song. The practice is referred to in the linked article but, as I indicated, it's more the general farting-around-with than the inclusifying.
Of course there are odd places where the inclusive language has been done carelessly, thus changing the meaning. "Born to raise us from the earth" is not the equivalent of "born to raise the sons of earth", for example.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Indeed. One that raises my hackles is in 'City of God, How Broad and Far'- changing the line 'the true thy chartered freemen are' to something supposedly more inclusive, but missing the point that 'chartered freemen' is a metaphor with a particular meaning and that female freemen are called, um, freemen...)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Indeed. One that raises my hackles is in 'City of God, How Broad and Far'- changing the line 'the true thy chartered freemen are' to something supposedly more inclusive, but missing the point that 'chartered freemen' is a metaphor with a particular meaning and that female freemen are called, um, freemen...)
Yeah, but since most people, me included, haven't got a clue what the feck a "chartered freeman" is, it's a bit lost anyway.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well, if it tickles your curiosity you can look it up. I'm sure you don't only ever expose yourself to words and expressions that you are already familiar with.
[ 19. March 2015, 12:42: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
NEQ
I had to look up your 'Arky Arky' song
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
You have to respect a lyricist who can rhyme arky arky with barky barky, threesies with beesies, and floody floody with muddy muddy. It is a fantastic song for children and for adults who remember singing it as children.
You bunch of total bastards. We used to sing that pile of drivel in Sunday School. I hated it then because I thought it was patronising and irritating, and I hate it now - and because of all of you it's now running unfettered around the cavernous vacuum inside my head yelling its twee little lungs out.
<mutter mutter grumble> ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Which just goes to show that "one person's meat is another person's poison". The point about feeling patronised is important, though, as I think it happens quite a lot in Junior Church/Sunday School.
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
I wrote a "praise song" (not a "hymn," which is too "churchy" sounding) …
It goes like this --
Jesus, I love you so much.
Jesus, I love you so much.
You know that I love you,
I know that you love me.
Jesus, I love you so much.
Father, I love you so much … (etc.)
Spirit, I love you so much … (etc.)
Brothers, I love you so so much … (etc.)
Sisters, I love you so much … (etc.)
It could easily be transmogrified into a nature religion song too -- ("Forests, I love you so much … Oceans, I love you so much … etc …")
(Note that I have established copyright on the lyrics since 2008 …)
[ 20. March 2015, 02:44: Message edited by: Teilhard ]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Well, if it tickles your curiosity you can look it up. I'm sure you don't only ever expose yourself to words and expressions that you are already familiar with.
I don't expect to have to feck around with Google to understand a hymn. Especially given I don't exactly have much chance to do that between seeing the words and being expected to sing them.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
It's not that obscure a metaphor anyway. You've heard of a person being given the Freedom of a City or Borough (e.g. being made a Freeman of the City of London)? You may not know off the top of your head exactly what the rights and privileges associated with being a Freeman are or really nowadays were (heck, I don't, and I am a Freeman of the City of London) but you have a general idea that it means or historically meant some kind of special status or full citizenship of that city which others don't have. That's what it's about.
[ 20. March 2015, 11:56: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Call me dumbed down, but I prefer to sing stuff I can understand without having to research. If I have to research it, my "this is utterly irrelevant" circuits start beeping.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
You have to respect a lyricist who can rhyme arky arky with barky barky, threesies with beesies, and floody floody with muddy muddy.
No, really, you don't.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
What a pity.
Not really. Works for me.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Sure, each to his own. Just sounds a bit limiting to me.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I do have an understanding of what "freemen" are, or were, at least in a local context. Main advantage - no tolls, and exemption from some other city rules. Main obligation - part of the city watch and requirement to keep your weapons in good order.
Female freemen only became a thing in the twentieth century. Earlier the requirement for brute strength and a good sword arm, quite apart from social norms, excluded them.
Freemen were historically lower middle-class, or skilled working class. It wasn't a position for the aristocracy, for whom freedom from tolls made little difference, and who would have their own fighting force, rather than be part of the city watch. Ditto, it wasn't for academics or clergy, but for men capable of working with their hands. Bakers, coopers, wrights, shoemakers, weavers, butchers.
"Freemen" makes me envisage Ankh-Morpork rather than the City of God, but that might be because I haven't come across the hymn "City of God, how broad and far" before.
If I found myself singing it, I'd be intrigued by the lyrics. I think I like them.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
NEQ
I think you're confusing freemen as in not serfs, with Freemen - which is those who have been given an Honorary Freedom of X.
Freemen were those who were not obliged to labour for their hereditary lord - by which token you could say that a Prince of Wales is less a freeman than, say, your average tax inspector.
But all Princes of Wales have been Freemen (of London, Cardiff, etc, etc).
Of course, it would have helped enormously if the first category had kept the letter D which was probably in the middle of their descriptive at some point...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Albertus said:
quote:
It's not that obscure a metaphor anyway. You've heard of a person being given the Freedom of a City or Borough (e.g. being made a Freeman of the City of London)? You may not know off the top of your head exactly what the rights and privileges associated with being a Freeman are or really nowadays were (heck, I don't, and I am a Freeman of the City of London) but you have a general idea that it means or historically meant some kind of special status or full citizenship of that city which others don't have. That's what it's about.
I was continuing on from Albertus, talking about the same sort of Freemen as I understood he was talking about.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, NEQ, that is just what I meant: thank you for setting out so succinctly what the status could entail. I think- not sure without looking it up- that in the case of the City of London at least, one had to be a Freeman to take any part in the government of the city- so pretty substantial merchants must have had the stsus from a fairly early tiime. Certainly we were free of tolls and indeed when you get your freedom certificate you also get a little red wallet to put it in, which presumably could be airily waved at the gatekeepsrs as you passed through, when such a thing was still necessary. Anyway, this is a tangent, now.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
So have you taken up your right to herd a flock of sheep over London Bridge yet, Albertus?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
In Aberdeen, there was a fund to stop any of their widows or unmarried daughters from falling into poverty - it provided for their "poore widows and aged virgins" provided they had lived a life "frie of publict scandale"
Not sure if London likewise provided for their scandal-free virgins, but it does fit into the City of God hymn imagery.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So have you taken up your right to herd a flock of sheep over London Bridge yet, Albertus?
I did think about it, for about three seconds. Mind you, for a long sense of historical and institutional identity, how about this conversation between my cousin (who is a Freeman and was one of my sponsors) and his son, to whom my cousin had been explaining some of the rights and privileges of the City:
Son: So whay does the Queen have to ask the Lord mayor's permission to enter the City?
Cousin: Because we won the Civil War...
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Somebody in northern Norway had a brilliant idea in producing an aurora T-shirt. They printed the words "I've seen the Light" on the back. Guess my earworm.
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
You won't believe this! I had to play for a wedding this afternoon and they chose the hymn 'Nearer My God to Thee' to the tune Horbury, which for those who have seen the movie 'A Night to Remember' was the hymn played as the ship went down. The words are totally inappropriate for a wedding being more suited to a funeral! The choir dissolved into giggles at rehearsal but thankfully managed straight faces for the wedding. I couldn't help but hope that the couple had a night to remember. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Well, Bib, at least they chose the right tune.
In the James Cameron film Titanic they used the tune Bethany which a band of mainly British musicians would never have used for that hymn.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Nostalgia trip or me. I haven't heard that since the '80s.
Like a lot of modern songs I think it served its purpose, and its time has gone.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Oh, and for me- Young Communicants' meetings on Sunday evenings c 1982
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
That's the one that starts "I am the bread of life...." isn't it?
Very popular in early 90s when I was going to big noisy meetings with lots of big noisy songs. It's an odd thing, and it's very high.
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
In these parts it's known as 'Toolan's Revenge', named for both it's creator and the impossibility of singing it without the risk of burst blood vessels and/or ear drums.
We haven't sung it for many years mainly because after the 1st verse the lyrics don't fully scan with the music.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I actually like it - tho' I think it works best if the verses are sung by a soloist and everyone else just sings the refrain. That gets over the problem with the scansion, too.
I first sung it in 1977/8 - I believe it came out of St. Michael-le-Belfry in York.
[ 06. April 2015, 10:03: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Looked it up in The Hymn Book Whose Name We Cannot Bear to Speak (you know which one I mean, Mr Mayhew) and that suggests it was written in the mid-60s.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Thanks for the story in the link: just goes to show that sometimes you should trust your first instincts.
Actually it's not all that bad and I have reasonably fond memories of it at a particular period and place. Not surprised to discover it's RC, though- just made for nuns to play on the guitar.
[ 06. April 2015, 19:35: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I could see how it would work much better with the verses sung solo & refrain altogether. Yes. Much better.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You're right: see here. Perhaps it came to Britain later.
I certainly remember singing it in the mid 70´s.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I could see how it would work much better with the verses sung solo & refrain altogether. Yes. Much better.
As a congregant of no particular musical skill or talent, I hate this. I don't want to sing hymns where the choir / soloist / whoever gets all the interesting bits, and I get the occasional repetitive "Woohoo, you're amazing, God!" or whatever.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
That's the one that starts "I am the bread of life...." isn't it?
It was sung at my mother's funeral. In my opinion it's one of the very few "Singing Nun" ditties that has any musical merit whatsoever. Like anything else, it can be sung poorly or well.
As for scansion, it's no worse than trying to squeeze a psalm into the tight corset of Anglican chant.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I could see how it would work much better with the verses sung solo & refrain altogether. Yes. Much better.
Na. The chorus is the hard bit with a high F.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Depends on the key you sing it in. I've seen a version in G which only goes up to a D. But it also goes down a long way at the beginning - some might struggle.
But the same problem is true of any hymns which have a wide tessitura - "I cannot tell" to "Londonderry Air" or "I vow to thee my country" to Holst's "Jupiter" are other cases in point.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
Is it just me, or is Vaughan Williams' tune for the Easter hymn Hail Festival Day purposefully written so that even when it does fit the words it sounds like it doesn't?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I don't know if it's purposeful - but it does strike me that the note lengths and stresses don't tie in well with the words.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Is it just me, or is Vaughan Williams' tune for the Easter hymn Hail Festival Day purposefully written so that even when it does fit the words it sounds like it doesn't?
Given that it's sung in procession, it's doubly difficult - older choir members shuffling round the pews, their reading glasses sdcanning the hymn book and the floor.
I don't think I've ever heard the hymn sung well.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Depends on the key you sing it in. I've seen a version in G which only goes up to a D. But it also goes down a long way at the beginning - some might struggle.
Second note would be a bottom G - I only gained the ability to sing them beyond 10am after a long throat infection. A would have been a better bet.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I don't know if it's purposeful - but it does strike me that the note lengths and stresses don't tie in well with the words.
To be fair to Vaughan Williams, I think the words are written to a non-iambic metre, so that finding a tune that fits the metre and feels natural was a tough task anyway.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I could see how it would work much better with the verses sung solo & refrain altogether. Yes. Much better.
As a congregant of no particular musical skill or talent, I hate this. I don't want to sing hymns where the choir / soloist / whoever gets all the interesting bits, and I get the occasional repetitive "Woohoo, you're amazing, God!" or whatever.
In general, I wholeheartedly agree. As a congregant and occasional ivory-thumper. It's why musical solos in songs also make me want to commit violence. Er, in Christian love, obv. What I bring to worship is my voice, and I get distinctly miffed to be told I can't use it. I was just thinking about the scansion (or not) of this particular song, and how to make it less tricky.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I could see how it would work much better with the verses sung solo & refrain altogether. Yes. Much better.
Na. The chorus is the hard bit with a high F.
Splitting hairs slightly, but I think I've sung it in A, so the top note is an E. Even so, yes, that's a bit high for me - my range is low alto - tenor - Barry White, depending on how much shouting I've done lately.
[ 10. April 2015, 19:23: Message edited by: Jemima the 9th ]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Dafyd quote:
To be fair to Vaughan Williams, I think the words are written to a non-iambic metre, so that finding a tune that fits the metre and feels natural was a tough task anyway.
Not only that, he tried to have one tune that could be used for the "Englished" version of latin processionals for Easter, Ascension and Pentecost, plus one for Dedication.
The trick is to learn all the verses of each by heart (best done in childhood)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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