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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Right, I'm not sure any Real Presence theology allows for the Host being a 'token crumb'. Surely if it's a token then that's memorialism?
You can have very 'realised' memorialism, eg how the Brethren do it - but it's still memorialism.
Edited to add: nice to see you back SCK ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 26. September 2015, 19:04: Message edited by: Pomona ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Right, I'm not sure any Real Presence theology allows for the Host being a 'token crumb'. Surely if it's a token then that's memorialism?
I was describing the physical aspect used to convey the real presence. It's called a feast but we are physically given just a tiny piece of physical bread or cracker, a token of the feast, which causes physical crumb that sometimes gets stuck in the physical throat. That God is fully present in that physical token of the feast and in the physical crumbs causing the physical coughing, I agree. I used to be memorialist, got corrected by experience.
Discussion about God's just as real presence in other than Eucharist is way off topic.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok. I don't doubt that God is 'in' your solos, Belle Ringer, just as I don't doubt that he's involved in the way Snags shapes and leads the worship in his context.
But for me part of the whole eucharistic thing is that it takes attention from us and our abilities - God-given though these are - and places it beyond ourselves on what Christ has done and that we cannot do.
Whether this is celebrated with hells, robes and incense or wirh the minimum of ceremony, that point remains. I'm less worried about it being a crumb or a wafer rather than a three-course banquet - it's what it signifies and what it effects - but you know all that ...
YMMV but it's the Mystery that's important rather than the experience. We none of us live on a high-octane cloud of spiritual transcendence 24/7.
However we cut it, our public worship should convey something if the 'Mystery of godliness ... He [God] appeared in a body ...'.
Of course,there are different ways of doing that and we need a range of means - the public reading of scripture, song, the kind of mutual encouragement SCK has mentioned, preaching, teaching, the eucharist ...
There is wriggle-room but how tightly we set the framework is bound to vary across and within traditions.
Within reason, crap, like beauty, is in the eye of the heholder to a certain extent.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Heh heh heh ...
Yes, I spotted my typo too late!
Mind you, the Mystery Worshipper template does contain a question about what aspects of services might might us feel like we were in 'the other place ...'
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Incidentally, my elderly evangelical Anglican mother-in-law clearly found the presence of bells and smells distinctly 'hellish' the other Sunday when I took her on a visit to the liberal catholic Anglican parish here. She's a regular at the evangelical Anglican parish but I sometimes take her to other churches when she has a fancy to go.
She said all the prayers and so on but didn't go forward to receive when it was time for communion. She didn't say anything at the time but later told my wife that the incense had put her off - although why that was any more or less apparent in the communion line (or semi-circle, it's done 'in the round') than where she was sitting I don't know ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I see that K*v*n M*yh*w are advertising for a sales rep in the South of England. Seems like a heaven sent opportunity for soemone to get the job and do it in a way that ensures that no-one ever buys any of their stock .
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
Next time we use the harvest song "God almighty set a rainbow" I am refusing to use the tune to which it is set. (Clementine)
I don't care if "People know the tune and the children can use the percussion instruments.". They were too busy giggling and trying not to sing the Clementine words. The less said about the tambourines which had been liberated from their dark cupboard, the better.
We can use "Daily, Daily" instead and I can sing "Ye who own the faith of Jesus" under my breath to keep me calm.
Still, the other percussion instruments seem to have mysteriously vanished and I am not complaining.
[ 11. October 2015, 17:55: Message edited by: Japes ]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'm still shuddering from our primary school's rendition of the Cauliflowers fluffy nonsense last weekend. Not a wide choice for a school without a music specialist - the rhythms are quite complicated and the intervals aren't too easy either. Still, I suppose its better than their contribution a couple of years ago which was all about pollution, prompting one of our local farmers to walk out of church.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No mention of God there, I see. What's wrong with We plough the fields and scatter or Come ye thankful people, come, anyway?
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
We got We plough the fields, Come, ye thankful people come, Think of a world without any flowers and Cauliflowers fluffy for lay-led, all-age harvest today. The organist come music leader set Cauliflowers fluffy for the orchestral band and piano with a very clear bridge.
(And a talk on poverty and sharing based on a re-enactment of Stone Soup that had me giggling before the guy one side of me started adding pantomime asides, which set the friend off on my other side. It spread so a group of us not ended up not behaving well. Shame one of the others was sworn in as something major at the end of the service.)
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But- unless there are some additional words which i have not found online- is 'cauliflowers fluffy' in any sense actually a hymn or worship song, since it appears not to contain the slightest or most oblique reference to God?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
"The broadbeans are sleeping in the blankety bed" - I wonder what naughty word was edited out and substituted by "blanket"?
Yes, God (or even a Creator) does seem to be notably absent (I don't know the song at all).
This perhaps does display the dilemma that we also feel at All-age services: the children who only come at these times know a completely different repertoire of songs to the adults. You can say, "We'll only have the well-known Christian hymns" but this completely alienates the children. Or you have school assembly songs which are unfamiliar to the adults and may not be very "Christian".
We've struggled with this for years; it may be less of a problem where CofE churches have linked schools and there is much more of a two-way flow in worship.
[ 12. October 2015, 08:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But it didn't use to be such a problem, because there was some overlap between ordinary school assembly hymns and the more general repertoire: or at least there was in my ordinary county (non CofE) primary school 40 years ago.
(Actually I rather like 'blankety bed' in itself: often thought I could happily snuggle down in a giant broad bean pod.)
[ 12. October 2015, 08:47: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I don't disagree; but we have to work with the situation as it is today. So what's the answer, Shipmates?
(P.S. My bed is not "blanket" but "duvety").
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure there is an answer - unless we all become Orthodox and only sing things that are in the Vespers and Liturgy and which are 1,000 or so years old. The tunes themselves are a lot more recent - most of the Russian ones are from about 1820 onwards.
As for the rest of us ... as I've observed here before, here in suburban/semi rural Cheshire those who dislike drum'n'bass or liturgical innovation of any kind, tend to flee to rural Zoars out in the countryside - temporarily swelling the congregations of village parish churches within easy striking distance (until such time as they shrug off this mortal coil).
Those parishes slightly further out of range have tiny congregations.
The non-conformists - mainly Methodists hereabouts - get around it by arranging special services for those who like the more contemporary songs - whilst keeping their main services fairly traditional in a hymn-prayer-sandwich sense.
Other than coming on here and perennially bleating about the issue, which is cathartic if nothing else, I'm not sure what we CAN do ... the genie is out of the bottle, Pandora's Box is open ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As I've observed here before, here in suburban/semi rural Cheshire those who dislike drum'n'bass or liturgical innovation of any kind, tend to flee to rural Zoars out in the countryside - temporarily swelling the congregations of village parish churches within easy striking distance (until such time as they shrug off this mortal coil).
There is a village URC not far from here which has grown considerably over recent years with disaffected Nonconformists. It's actually a nice church to be in (but don't mention modern music!)
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well, the answer to the disconnection of school worship songs from the main repertoire rather lies in the hands of the schools. But that in turn requires the schools to be abit less embarrassed about school worship (and perhaps also a bit less patronising in their ideas about what young children can cope with), which in turn requires some changes in the views that many teachers, like many others, hold about the place of cultural and ritual (in its widest sense) relgion, which requires... and so on and so on.
But then if you're having the children into a church service, why not use that as an opportunity to expand the repertoire (one familiar one, to them, and one that's new to them)? The answer, I suspect, is 'can't be arsed'.
[ 12. October 2015, 11:33: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure there is an answer - unless we all become Orthodox and only sing things that are in the Vespers and Liturgy and which are 1,000 or so years old. The tunes themselves are a lot more recent - most of the Russian ones are from about 1820 onwards.
It's suddenly seeming an attractive option
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I've been asked to sing in a special Evensong to mark that church's 150 years of their choir. However, that church rarely has a choir these days, having opted for a music group and what they call praise music. They have decided to sing hymns for this special service, but I'm horrified with the selection. I really don't think that at such a service of celebration it is appropriate to sing Kendrick's hymn "Beauty for brokenness, hope for despair, Lord in the suffering this is our prayer" It is all so dreary and miserable for such and occasion. I think I might be too unwell to participate that evening.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Well, the answer to the disconnection of school worship songs from the main repertoire rather lies in the hands of the schools.
While I see your point, I think that, if churches are seeking to reach out and communicate to unchurched people, it is up to us to use the music they know - or, at least, seek to meet them half-way. Why should schools (especially non-church ones in a secular or multicultural setting) learn the Church's songs, except to educate the children about this country's Christian heritage?
[ 12. October 2015, 13:43: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well, you've given half the answer yourself. I believe that part of education is about cultural transmission.
But to come back to the particular crappy chorus that sparked this off, having a so-called worship song that doesn't mention God is the worst of both worlds.
[ 12. October 2015, 16:05: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I've been asked to sing in a special Evensong to mark that church's 150 years of their choir. However, that church rarely has a choir these days, having opted for a music group and what they call praise music. They have decided to sing hymns for this special service, but I'm horrified with the selection. I really don't think that at such a service of celebration it is appropriate to sing Kendrick's hymn "Beauty for brokenness, hope for despair, Lord in the suffering this is our prayer" It is all so dreary and miserable for such and occasion. I think I might be too unwell to participate that evening.
Is there a particular reason why this song was chosen? Maybe the organisers want to acknowledge that the choir has been through tough times, which would seem to be the case if the church doesn't really have a functioning choir any more. Or maybe the church itself has had difficulties to face. If so, it's reasonable for the event to recognise this, and not just focus on the jolly things.
Anyway, so long as this isn't the last hymn of the service it won't be so bad!
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm still shuddering from our primary school's rendition of the Cauliflowers fluffy nonsense last weekend. Not a wide choice for a school without a music specialist - the rhythms are quite complicated and the intervals aren't too easy either. Still, I suppose its better than their contribution a couple of years ago which was all about pollution, prompting one of our local farmers to walk out of church.
I have never heard Cauliflowers Fluffy, but the title alone doesn't give great promise.
However I am a little puzzled by the reaction of the farmer to the year before - part of celebrating Harvest is remembering our responsibility to care for a planet entrusted to us by God, and given Laudato Si the connections between Christianity and ecological concerns could not be stronger. I am not doubting that there was dreadful music used, but pollution is a entirely appropriate topic for a Harvest Festival. Ignoring it rather guarantees that there won't be many more harvests to create a festival for. Farmers surely must care about that!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure there is an answer - unless we all become Orthodox and only sing things that are in the Vespers and Liturgy and which are 1,000 or so years old. The tunes themselves are a lot more recent - most of the Russian ones are from about 1820 onwards.
As for the rest of us ... as I've observed here before, here in suburban/semi rural Cheshire those who dislike drum'n'bass or liturgical innovation of any kind, tend to flee to rural Zoars out in the countryside - temporarily swelling the congregations of village parish churches within easy striking distance (until such time as they shrug off this mortal coil).
Those parishes slightly further out of range have tiny congregations.
The non-conformists - mainly Methodists hereabouts - get around it by arranging special services for those who like the more contemporary songs - whilst keeping their main services fairly traditional in a hymn-prayer-sandwich sense.
Other than coming on here and perennially bleating about the issue, which is cathartic if nothing else, I'm not sure what we CAN do ... the genie is out of the bottle, Pandora's Box is open ...
I do love the image of a pastor/vicar who thinks he's really cool (and for some reason they are almost always male clergy) by putting on drum n bass nights (at least 10? 12? years out of fashion) while the actual yoof put on their own grime worship or whatever. I have a friend who's really into skating (as in skateboarding not ice skating) and organised herself a pilgrimage where she skated most of the route where possible. Ten times more authentic than cringey 'down with the kids' pastors.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I have never heard Cauliflowers Fluffy,
Let me help you change that.
I had dislodged it from my mind, but as I've been ear-wormed with it since being reminded of the existence of the song, I'm sharing it with you.
[ 13. October 2015, 06:19: Message edited by: Japes ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I am a little puzzled by the reaction of the farmer to the year before - ... pollution is a entirely appropriate topic for a Harvest Festival. Ignoring it rather guarantees that there won't be many more harvests to create a festival for. Farmers surely must care about that!
Are we sure he walked out because he was a farmer and felt that the focus of the service was wrong? Or was it more because, like so many people, he had huge folk-expectations about Harvest Festival and was angry when they were not fulfilled?
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Japes:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I have never heard Cauliflowers Fluffy,
Let me help you change that.
For all the bile that this song has generated against modern worship the song does not seem that modern to me. As pop music styles tend to change every three and a half years schools are better off not being too contemporary in any case. I can imagine this style of song being sung by Millicent Martin on TW3. It seems to be of that era.
Just to be fair, the absence of God in the lyrics does not mean the song is inappropriate, it all depends on the context in which it is used. (I'd prefer that context to be a service that I don't attend though.)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Japes:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I have never heard Cauliflowers Fluffy,
Let me help you change that.
For all the bile that this song has generated against modern worship the song does not seem that modern to me. As pop music styles tend to change every three and a half years
Do they? Bloody hip-hop, techno and all that sails in it seems to have held sway with little change for about the last 30 years. It went Bum shitty bum shitty bum shitty bum in 1988 and it's still going Bum shitty bum shitty bum shitty bum now.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
For all the bile that ['Cauliflowers Fluffy'] has generated against modern worship the song does not seem that modern to me. As pop music styles tend to change every three and a half years schools are better off not being too contemporary in any case. I can imagine this style of song being sung by Millicent Martin on TW3. It seems to be of that era.
Just to be fair, the absence of God in the lyrics does not mean the song is inappropriate, it all depends on the context in which it is used. (I'd prefer that context to be a service that I don't attend though.)
I've just listened to 'Cauliflowers Fluffy', and it seems like one more cheerful kids' song. It has a lot of likes, so someone approves of it!
The strange thing about it, though, is that it's just a list of fruit and veg, with no element of thanksgiving attached, not even to Mother Nature let alone to God. It could have been written by the BBC to teach infants what food looks like!
Songs that are vague about God are, I imagine, appealing to primary schools because they don't risk offending parents who are non-religious or who follow a different religion, whereas Christians can always claim that God is implicit in the lyrics even if he's not mentioned directly. It's surely a win-win situation for the writers.
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
"The broadbeans...
"We'll only have the well-known Christian hymns" but this completely alienates the children. Or you have school assembly songs which are unfamiliar to the adults and may not be very "Christian".
C-Fluffy is at least 25 years old. So probably a fair number of the parents know it too.
(I've had the 'the apples are'&'broad beans' bouncing in my head a year or two, waiting for me to put it with the rest of the song, so hopefully that can be exorcised now)
In fairness to primary school, a lot of them weren't as bad as I remembered them at the time. Or rather I've realised it's an impossible situation, and got more realistic standards.
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
I've sung 'Cauliflowers Fluffy' many times at school assemblies when my kids were at primary school (C of E) ... in fact the song was called 'Paintbox' for some reason, and I am embarrassed to admit that I hadn't even registered that it didn't mention God at all. It was just one of those cheerful school songs like 'Autumn Days'
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There are collections of songs suitable for primary schools with words for projection and a CD for the music, sold to the many many primary schools required to engage in a daily act of worship without musicians to lead music. I know Cauliflowers Fluffy or Paintbox from working in primary schools, along with a whole lot of other cheerful songs that may or may not have a Christian message. From the volume of singing I was one of the few in church who did know it, but I can't sing, so I mime.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
C-Fluffy is at least 25 years old. So probably a fair number of the parents know it too.
Although popular churches may attract many nuclear families, a lot of congregations are dominated by middle aged and older people, even though there are children who attend.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Japes:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I have never heard Cauliflowers Fluffy,
Let me help you change that.
For all the bile that this song has generated against modern worship the song does not seem that modern to me. As pop music styles tend to change every three and a half years
Do they? Bloody hip-hop, techno and all that sails in it seems to have held sway with little change for about the last 30 years. It went Bum shitty bum shitty bum shitty bum in 1988 and it's still going Bum shitty bum shitty bum shitty bum now.
Can't speak about techno, but ummm hip-hop has changed massively?
Hip-hop is a genre based in Black emancipation and social commentary. Nice job reducing the voice of disenfranchised Black youth to 'bum shitty bum' ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) .
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Pomona:
Hip-hop is a genre based in Black emancipation and social commentary. Nice job reducing the voice of disenfranchised Black youth to 'bum shitty bum' [Roll Eyes] .
Not everything in the world has to be dreadfully earnest all of the time.
Also, something may well have very worthy origins yet still sound like utter shit to folk, what with music being such a subjective thing (hence this entire thread, arguably)
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
What I thought ironic about your statement, Snags, is that it is a very much an older person type comment. And older people tend to resist change
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
I'm very much a middle-aged person, and whilst not typical, self-awareness compels me to say probably not as a-typical as I'd hope.
I'm certainly not resistant to change. Generally I'm quite comfortable with change, particularly musically.
I don't particularly like hip-hop as a genre, musically, although I can cope with most anything in small doses. But not liking hip-hop musically isn't the same as having no sympathy for any of the social/political/cultural roots. Don't think I could fairly lay claim to empathy, what with being decidedly white, middle-class and non-urban, but sympathy, yes.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What I thought ironic about your statement, Snags, is that it is a very much an older person type comment. And older people tend to resist change
Wrong! Middle-aged people tend to be resistant to change. Old people know that their days are numbered and that change has to happen.
(Generalisations, of course but it's my experience.)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Indeed, although with advancing longevity I think the window is sliding upwards.
Those most resistant to change at church are certainly those who are me+5 to me+20; I'm entering the danger zone. However, I'm not sure that thinking a reaction to a simplistic dissing of hip-hop is a touch over-earnest necessarily equates to being anti-change. Still, maybe I'm more pipe and slippers then I realised. As long as I don't have to start liking Horlicks I can probably cope.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As surely as the Grim Reaper, a liking for Horlicks will come ...
(Mind you, I can't remember the last time I drank any - it must have been as a child. Funny how Horlicks was a kids' drink at one time ... as well as something old biddies drank before they went to bed. But they used to drink Manns too ...)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
My wife drinks Ovaltine - does that count? (I can't stand the stuff).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Japes:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I have never heard Cauliflowers Fluffy,
Let me help you change that.
For all the bile that this song has generated against modern worship the song does not seem that modern to me. As pop music styles tend to change every three and a half years
Do they? Bloody hip-hop, techno and all that sails in it seems to have held sway with little change for about the last 30 years. It went Bum shitty bum shitty bum shitty bum in 1988 and it's still going Bum shitty bum shitty bum shitty bum now.
Can't speak about techno, but ummm hip-hop has changed massively?
Hip-hop is a genre based in Black emancipation and social commentary. Nice job reducing the voice of disenfranchised Black youth to 'bum shitty bum' .
I'm supposed to like it because of who's playing it? Sorry, Pomona, but it's always sounded shite to me regardless. I can't make myself like it any more than I can make myself like Cinzano.
If I described it the way I did because of its origins, you'd have a point. But I didn't. I gave an (admittedly subjective, because it's an artform innit) assessment of how it sounds to me.
[ 19. October 2015, 11:45: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
It's a very diverse genre, and I doubt you've heard it all.
Sorry but it's very common for genres of music associated with Black people to be dismissed as unimportant or not as musically accomplished as 'proper' (ie White) music.
It's one thing for it to not be your favourite kind of music (it isn't mine) but that doesn't mean you can't appreciate the cultural and musical influence that hip-hop has had generally. Hip-hop's legacy deserves respect regardless of whether it's your preferred type of music or not, which means not making derogatory comments like 'bum shitty bum'.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
quote:
Pomona:
Hip-hop is a genre based in Black emancipation and social commentary. Nice job reducing the voice of disenfranchised Black youth to 'bum shitty bum' [Roll Eyes] .
Not everything in the world has to be dreadfully earnest all of the time.
Also, something may well have very worthy origins yet still sound like utter shit to folk, what with music being such a subjective thing (hence this entire thread, arguably)
Except that demonising hip-hop has been used to demonise Black youth (playing into the 'thug' stereotype for example), who in case you haven't noticed, haven't had a brilliant time in recent years. Dismissing hip-hop and other genres associated with Black people as unimportant compared to Important White Music IS part of culturally-accepted racism. You can appreciate the legacy and cultural importance of hip-hop without dismissing it as bad. There is cultural baggage surrounding Black music that means that it's not just about what it sounds like. If something has brought cultural value to the world then arguably it can't inherently be bad.
There is a world of difference between understanding and appreciating the importance of hip-hop while not being a fan, and making derogatory comments about it as an entire genre (despite its diversity).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
You can appreciate the legacy and cultural importance of hip-hop without dismissing it as bad.
Or you can recognize that it has cultural importance and think that it's bad.
quote:
There is cultural baggage surrounding Black music that means that it's not just about what it sounds like.
But here's the thing - I don't care about its cultural baggage - I care about whether it's enjoyable to listen to, which means that, qua music, I only care about what it sounds like. I'm not at all interested in listening to socially important bad music.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Pomona, does this mean you are insisting we accept and celebrate Gangsta Rap in all its glory because of its origins in the black community?
There's a Purgatory thread in this - but I don't have time to set it up until next week, in half term.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
It's a very diverse genre, and I doubt you've heard it all.
I've not tried every type of fish, but all the ones I've tried I've hated so I don't bother any more. Same with Hip-Hop
quote:
Sorry but it's very common for genres of music associated with Black people to be dismissed as unimportant or not as musically accomplished as 'proper' (ie White) music.
I didn't say it's unimportant or not accomplished. I said that I dislike it and I fail to personally appreciate the musical accomplishment. I can tell it takes some skill; I couldn't do it, but the end result is for me like the finest fish pie - it may take a Rick Stern to make it, but I'd still have to chuck it straight in the bin.
quote:
It's one thing for it to not be your favourite kind of music (it isn't mine) but that doesn't mean you can't appreciate the cultural and musical influence that hip-hop has had generally. Hip-hop's legacy deserves respect regardless of whether it's your preferred type of music or not, which means not making derogatory comments like 'bum shitty bum'.
I do apologise for honestly telling you how it sounds to me. People have seldom held back from telling me what they think of the music I like, and I don't see why this form should get special treatment.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
quote:
Pomona:
Hip-hop is a genre based in Black emancipation and social commentary. Nice job reducing the voice of disenfranchised Black youth to 'bum shitty bum' [Roll Eyes] .
Not everything in the world has to be dreadfully earnest all of the time.
Also, something may well have very worthy origins yet still sound like utter shit to folk, what with music being such a subjective thing (hence this entire thread, arguably)
Except that demonising hip-hop has been used to demonise Black youth (playing into the 'thug' stereotype for example), who in case you haven't noticed, haven't had a brilliant time in recent years. Dismissing hip-hop and other genres associated with Black people as unimportant compared to Important White Music IS part of culturally-accepted racism. You can appreciate the legacy and cultural importance of hip-hop without dismissing it as bad. There is cultural baggage surrounding Black music that means that it's not just about what it sounds like. If something has brought cultural value to the world then arguably it can't inherently be bad.
There is a world of difference between understanding and appreciating the importance of hip-hop while not being a fan, and making derogatory comments about it as an entire genre (despite its diversity).
There is also a world of difference between saying "Personally, I think this is crap" in the sense of "I'm terribly sorry old chap, but this particular form of music is not to my personal taste, and I am expressing this in the vernacular" and demonising it. Which is really where the comment about not everything having to be desperately earnest stems from.
It is actually possible to have a personal subjective opinion on something as music independent of one's opinion on whether or not a particular people group have had the shitty end of the stick.
When my dear old dad said "Dear God in heaven, how can you listen to that shit, it's just noise, it's not even music?" he wasn't making a sweeping dismissal or demonisation of teenagers, counter-culture, rock'n'roll, the delta blues roots it was (mis)appropriated from or anything else. He was merely expressing the opinion that my music of choice was marginally less enjoyable to him than listening to static at full volume.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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