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» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Dead Horses   » Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
Niteowl

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I'm not thrilled with that chorus, but I'd consider it a great one for small children. That makes it child like, not childish. Childish is when one makes up lyrics that mock.

I don't think that's what we mean in this context. A chorus that deliberately mocks wouldn't be allowed in church at all. What I find most annoying is a very simple statement repeated over and over again - most children wouldn't appreciate it either I don't think.
Very small children would do well with it. Think Jesus Loves Me, a song most of us sang growing up. My point, however, was that it was child like in simplicity. Childish is more snotty or selfish behavior that you get from small children.

As to songs with mocking lyrics, you'd be surprised at what I've heard over they years. Perhaps not mocking Christianity, but certainly mocking others. Another way not to win converts.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
May I pull you up on The Feast? This does not allude to Communion, but to the Wedding Supper Of The Lamb - the wedding reception we'll all be guests at in Heaven after Jesus has come back etc. Refers to the events in Revelation.

OK, but doesn't Holy Communion itself allude to this banquet? (amongst many other other things)

quote:
... for the record, something might be theologically sound - but the delivery causes the listener to wince. Or cringe with overuse of certain musical or lyrical ideas...
That's what I've been trying to say all along.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Very small children would do well with it. Think Jesus Loves Me, a song most of us sang growing up.

Oh yes - conceded - I'd forgotten about that.
quote:
As to songs with mocking lyrics, you'd be surprised at what I've heard over they years. Perhaps not mocking Christianity, but certainly mocking others. Another way not to win converts.
You mean like
quote:
Dare to be a Protestant,
Dare to stand alone,
Dare to say the Bible's true,
And down with the pope of Rome.

...and you wonder I turned my back on protestantism?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Niteowl

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Very small children would do well with it. Think Jesus Loves Me, a song most of us sang growing up.

Oh yes - conceded - I'd forgotten about that.
quote:
As to songs with mocking lyrics, you'd be surprised at what I've heard over they years. Perhaps not mocking Christianity, but certainly mocking others. Another way not to win converts.
You mean like
quote:
Dare to be a Protestant,
Dare to stand alone,
Dare to say the Bible's true,
And down with the pope of Rome.

...and you wonder I turned my back on protestantism?

Trust me, I've seen the same amount of disrespect from some in the Orthodox church, the RCC and evangelicals. It's generally a minority faction and you'll find them no matter what flavor of Christianity you turn to. Maturity is realizing that a few bad examples don't represent the whole and that every Christian, whether Happy Clappy or Smells and Bells people are the Body of Christ and to be respected as such. Turning your back on a whole side of the church because of the ill behavior of a few isn't the answer. I know this from personal experience and I've worked with and attended a wide variety of churches over the years.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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Mark Betts,

Admin Tiara On

If you want a discussion and are able to abide by the 10 Commardments, then you're in the right place. But if you're just here to wind people up, slag off other Christian traditions and attempt to convert us all to the One True Faith then your time here is going to be short and not particularly sweet.

Re-read the 10 Commandments and start behaving like they apply to you as well as everyone else. Otherwise the next Admin post with your name on it will be telling you just how long a break from the Ship you'll be having.

Admin Tiara Off

Tubbs
Member Admin

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North East Quine

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
What I find most annoying is a very simple statement repeated over and over again - most children wouldn't appreciate it either I don't think.
I think young children do like repetition; popular songs such as "The Wheels on the Bus" or "Old MacDonald had a Farm" are full of repetition.
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leo
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Forgive me if i have posted this before - my best friend and i used to get together for a drink or four on Sunday evenings and we'd both escaped evangelical childhoods. I found the music editions of three volumes of CSSM choruses and we had a raucous singalong. After about the second bottle of we, we did 'Wide, wide as the ocean' and when we got to the big about' deep, deep as the deepest sea is my saviour's love', i turned to her in that way pissed people do and said, 'You know ... it's all true.'

Maybe today's worship songs are inferior but those old choruses were not trite nor judgmental.

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Barnabas62
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Including

"I though so unworthy,
still am a child of his care
For His Word teaches me
that His love reaches me

EV - RY - WHERE" ?

Including the hand signs for "unworthy"?

Why leo! An "in vino veritas" moment.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Forgive me if i have posted this before - my best friend and i used to get together for a drink or four on Sunday evenings and we'd both escaped evangelical childhoods. I found the music editions of three volumes of CSSM choruses and we had a raucous singalong. After about the second bottle of we, we did 'Wide, wide as the ocean' and when we got to the big about' deep, deep as the deepest sea is my saviour's love', i turned to her in that way pissed people do and said, 'You know ... it's all true.'


One of my all time favourite choruses! (Complete with actions!) I learnt it as a very young child, and it still moves me as a crusty old adult.

BTW, you did mean 'after the second bottle of wine' didn't you? [Biased]

[ 10. June 2012, 20:49: Message edited by: Anselmina ]

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Gill H

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'Our God is a great big God' is liked by quite a few small children I know. I'm always rather put off by the musical similarity to King Herod's Song from 'Jesus Christ Superstar' myself.

Again, context is everything. 'The Feast Is Ready' worked wonderfully when 500 of us conga-ed round the Big Top in Minehead in the 1980s, to the sound of live trumpeters doing their Latin American thang. I wouldn't try and use it in 2012 in a little local church with an organist.

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Curiosity killed ...

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For My God is a great big God, I've seen 8 - 11 year olds hating every minute of having to demonstrate the actions to a church of people who were being urged to participate too, every time this particular leader lead the aforementioned Service of the Word. I used to take that song on the music listing as advance notice that this week was time to go elsewhere. That made me hate it so much I didn't inflict it on the pram service, when it might have been more appropriate, but round here skyscrapers and submarines are not common, so not really much very young children could relate to

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
'Our God is a great big God' is liked by quite a few small children I know.

As is the children's TV show Clifford the Big Red Dog. I used to combine the two and sing "My Dog is a Great Big Dog" with appropriately placed barking noises.

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justlooking
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
BTW, you did mean 'after the second bottle of wine' didn't you? [Biased]

I took it as a comment on the quality.
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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
BTW, you did mean 'after the second bottle of wine' didn't you? [Biased]

I took it as a comment on the quality.
[TANGENT]Must be French wine from a chateau.
Chat is French for cat.
Eau = water.
Is it any wonder it tastes of cat's water?
(Apologies for plagiarising Terry Pratchett.)[/TANGENT]

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Helen-Eva
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I've seen 8 - 11 year olds hating every minute of having to demonstrate the actions to a church of people who were being urged to participate too.

I went to a confirmation service where the younger ones getting confirmed (aged 9-11 I guess) were made to do an action song in front of the congregation. I could feel the waves of embarassment coming off them, particularly the boys. It was wrong on so many levels.

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Pigwidgeon

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If they're old enough and mature enough for Confirmation, they're too old for action songs.

JMHO, of course!

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Mockingale
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quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I've seen 8 - 11 year olds hating every minute of having to demonstrate the actions to a church of people who were being urged to participate too.

I went to a confirmation service where the younger ones getting confirmed (aged 9-11 I guess) were made to do an action song in front of the congregation. I could feel the waves of embarassment coming off them, particularly the boys. It was wrong on so many levels.
I wonder how much embarrassing silliness puts young people off of church. I hated Sunday School. I don't think I ever liked it. It felt like baby stuff pitched at the lowest common denominator (generally, it is). I hated the songs in particular. The only thing that saved me was that I had the good sense to join the choir at 7 or 8 and got involved in adult liturgy.

But even then, I wasn't free. Our fifth grade teacher (I went to a school that was affiliated with our church) decided that we were going to sing this cutesy song about God loving all the children and the whole world in front of the entire school at chapel. It was mortifying and probably only entertaining for weird cat-ladies who teach fifth grade.

I felt like every single thing that was pitched toward kids at church assumed that we were five or six years younger than we were, and assumed that we may or may not have suffered some sort of brain damage. Every middle school youth group activity was like trying on the ugly, cutesy sweater that your grandmother made you.

It was only when I joined high school youth group and had a leader who was somewhat mature and "cool" that I could acknowledge that maybe not every expression of faith was infantile or for the benefit of old women...

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
May I pull you up on The Feast? This does not allude to Communion, but to the Wedding Supper Of The Lamb - the wedding reception we'll all be guests at in Heaven after Jesus has come back etc. Refers to the events in Revelation.

OK, but doesn't Holy Communion itself allude to this banquet? (amongst many other other things)

Quite so, and more than alludes, I would say. The cosmic and eschatological nature of the Eucharist is such that I cannot imagine it independently of the Marriage Feast of the Lamb. Hymms and songs often draw on this dual imagery and it seems that Kendrick's offering is no exception.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Yay! Here we go...

Let me start with that all time Christmas classic everyone knows.
[snip]

Have you guessed what it is yet?

Of course! [Yipee]
[QUOTE]
Come and join the celebration,
It's a very special day,
Come and share our jubilation
There's a new King born today...
[/QUOTE

Not quite "everyone" -- maybe "everyone in England" or "everyone in my (former) evangelical church" or even "everyone who had the songbook it comes from". But not "everyone". Nowhere near.

John

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
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<Minor_Tangent>
Actions are funny things. We rarely do "up front" actions for the children's songs in services, so some kids, and some adults, do them and some don't.

However, at Holiday Club and other child-specific events where there are hordes of kids and very few adults, the kids love doing the actions, and will be singing the songs to themselves as they wander around for weeks afterwards.

I sometimes wonder if the embarrassment is imposed rather than innate ...
</Minor_Tangent>

On the specifics of Our Dog Is A Great Big Dog, As For Me And My Mouse and other such songs, again, context is everything. Decent band and an enthusiastic congregation they work fine for the intended age group, and the oldies can cope (excluding the early/mid-teens in their too-cool-for-school phase where everything is cringey). In a limp congregation with a deadly organist, forget it. And obviously, the above is all assuming a basic context where That Kind Of Thing is part of the local culture. It's not going to travel up the candle very well [Smile]

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Jolly Jape
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Quite frankly, if you think OGIAGBG is the nadir of children's worship songs, you need to get out more! As Snags says, context is everything. There really is some dire, dire stuff out there, but that particular song is competantly written, singable, has a memorable tune, and is theologically orthodox (plus I enjoy singing it, especially the false end - catches 'em out every time [Big Grin] ).

If you've ever had to work with someone whose idea of a good children's song is "Jumping up and down, sing hosanna" (I kid you not), you would thirst for songs like "OGIAGBG" and Judy Bailey's truely excellent "I reach up high".

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Helen-Eva
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
If they're old enough and mature enough for Confirmation, they're too old for action songs.

JMHO, of course!

That's exactly what I thought. And I dare say quite a few of those kids have now learned that church is about being embarassed and made to feel silly so they won't want to come back.

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Curiosity killed ...

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No, I don't think Our God is a Great Big God is the nadir of awful children's songs - I know it's not. What was particularly bad about it was the way it was used. And yes, I agree with others' comments: it doesn't work without a decent backing band. You should hear it a capella - which was another reason it wasn't on the pram service list.

When I was looking for alternative things to sing with the pram service I spent some time searching through HymnQuest's suggestions - there's a lot of really horrific stuff out there.

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
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I have once refused point blank to play something; something so dire I've expunged it from my memory, but I remember the shock at the refusal. (Generally I subscribe to the view that I'm there to serve the service leader & congregation and not to have editorial input, but whatever the heck it was was not going to serve the congregation however well we played it).

Bearing in mind that I sucked it up and played "We have a king who rides on a donkey" for a couple of services, whatever I've redacted from my memory must have been truly execrable [Smile]

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Arethosemyfeet
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I've come very close to refusing to sing "Autumn Days" on the basis of dated twee 1960s references and a total lack of theological juice. I relented only because it was specifically requested by a young boy who was receiving communion for the first time.

I will say that, when faced with these abominations, I find the best thing to do is jump in with both feet and get on with it, it's less cringemaking that way.

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Jolly Jape
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Snags, were we twins separated at birth? I, too, have refused to play a song on one occasion (actually, the aforementioned "jumping up and down"), and yes, it really is worse, much, much worse than "we have a King" (sung, for those who have had the good fortune never to have encountered it, to the tune of "what shall we do with a drunken sailor").

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Curiosity killed ...

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Now, I have encountered We have a King - and sung it with the pram service - that one is OK a capella and is OK for 0-4 year olds.

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hatless

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Turn your eyes upon Bultmann,
look full on his wonderful words,
and the things you believe will grow strangely dim,
in the light of Kerygma and Myth.

(An improvement, I think.)

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Gill H

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Does it continue 'Hoo-ray and up He rises' ...?

I thought Autumn Days was 1990s but maybe that's when I heard it. It is certainly twee, and would have me scared to go on a plane in case it needed to be refuelled in the air!

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Curiosity killed ...

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nope, Jesus the King has risen ... Early in the morning - you can hear it here

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Jolly Jape
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Whilst we're on awful children's songs, anything by "douggie doug doug" Horley is usually dire, but "Oi, Oi, we are gonna praise the Lord" is a particularly dreadful example of the genre, with the the classic line "He's an exciting, pulverising, c-colossal, humongous-mongous God!"
Not really the sort of theology that we'd want to teach our kids.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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la vie en rouge
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quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
I thought Autumn Days was 1990s but maybe that's when I heard it. It is certainly twee, and would have me scared to go on a plane in case it needed to be refuelled in the air!

Definitely older than that. I sang it at primary school in the 80s and I don't think it was new then.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
"we have a King" (sung, for those who have had the good fortune never to have encountered it, to the tune of "what shall we do with a drunken sailor").

"Clap you hands 'cos Jesus loves you," to the tune Bobby Shafto anyone? No? Thought not.

As for the coolness of early teen, it all comes back round a few years later. If you've never seen 17 to 21 year olds singing children's songs in a sarcastic voice you have missed something. It's wonderful when they discover irony.

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Posts: 8832 | From: Somewhere else | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Alaric the Goth
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# 511

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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Whilst we're on awful children's songs, anything by "douggie doug doug" Horley is usually dire, but "Oi, Oi, we are gonna praise the Lord" is a particularly dreadful example of the genre, with the the classic line "He's an exciting, pulverising, c-colossal, humongous-mongous God!"
Not really the sort of theology that we'd want to teach our kids.

Yes... [Disappointed] Indeed. The 'Oi, Oi,...' song is an even lower point, when used in the 'all age' service, than 'Our God is a great big God'.
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I can't work out if "Water of Life" ("See the raindrops") is rubbish, or just ruined by having the chorus sung to the tune of "Rupert the Bear."
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Aravis
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# 13824

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There are some unbelievably awful "popular" hymns from about a century ago (I grew up with the Redemption Hymnal).

An example (to a tune very similar to "Knees up Mother Brown":

For Jesus is my Saviour,
He's washed my sins away,
Paid my debt on Calv'ry's mou-oun-tain,
Happy in his dying love,
Singing all the day,
I'm living, yes I'm living in the fountain.

The words are bad, but to that tune they're bordering on offensive IMO.

There are plenty of other examples, I've tried to wipe most of them from my memory.

Posts: 657 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Niminypiminy
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# 15489

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Just going back to OGIAGBG for a second, compared to 'God's love is big' it's sublime. Oh, how I cringe when we have to sing:

God's love is big
God's love is great
God's love is fab
And he's my mate

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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/

Posts: 775 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
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# 13356

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'God's love is fab'? Ah, there's up to date, relevant language that really speaks to da yoof- ahem.

Honestly, even if we're being charitable to the people who write this kind of stuff and allow that for them it may be a very heartfelt expression of their faith and so eminently acceptable to God, what kind of slack-jawed drooling moron (a) thinks this kind of stuff is worth publishing to a wider audience and (b) thinks it's worth including in public worship?

Refuse to sing it and indeed sit down sharply when it begins is my advice!

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6460 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
drnick
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# 16065

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We sang a song yesterday which contains the words:

"We call you now to worship him
As Lord of all.
To have no other gods but him:
Their thrones must fall!"

Which frankly appals me. Not a very positive attitude to people of other faihs.

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"Christians like you are why God invented lions" Pagan Wanderer Lu.

Posts: 58 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged
leo
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# 1458

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Not necessarily. I believe that most folk of other faiths are worshipping the same God as us.

The 'gods' whose thrones must fall are things like status, money, despot regimes.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23075 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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Eric fucking Whitacre.

Writing for choirs doesn't prevent you from writing crappy choruses apparently.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
drnick
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# 16065

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not necessarily. I believe that most folk of other faiths are worshipping the same God as us.

The 'gods' whose thrones must fall are things like status, money, despot regimes.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought about it like that. I withdraw my comments.

It is clearly open to misinterpretation though (given that I did so). And I still don't like it.

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"Christians like you are why God invented lions" Pagan Wanderer Lu.

Posts: 58 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged
mrs whibley
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# 4798

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quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
Just going back to OGIAGBG for a second, compared to 'God's love is big' it's sublime. Oh, how I cringe when we have to sing:

God's love is big
God's love is great
God's love is fab
And he's my mate

First 3 lines - poor choice of language; last line - poor theology, I don't sing that one.

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I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli

Posts: 941 | From: North Lincolnshire | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
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# 13356

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Snipped due to a complaint by someone mentioned in the post.

Tubbs

[ 21. June 2017, 21:36: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6460 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Jonah the Whale

Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244

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Does "he's my mate" mean anything different from "he's my friend"? It doesn't in my view, it is just more informal. So where is the theological problem? Style-wise, sure, there will be loads of people who won't like it.
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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[Tangent]

quote:
originally posted by Albertus

A curious church: apprently CofE, tho' you wouldn't know it from the website which is fronted by a nauseating picture of the Vicar ('Senior Pastor' in his parlance) apparently having his nipples groped (out of shot) by a blonde woman who I can only assume, in all charity, is his wife.


Actually (though it doesn't, in fact, front the website), I think it's quite sweet. Maybe not your taste, but hardly soft porn. And any Church which admits on its website that it doesn't always get everything right is a rare jewel, and has got to have something going for it.

[/Tangent]

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
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# 13356

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[Biased]
Posts: 6460 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

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quote:
Originally posted by drnick:
We sang a song yesterday which contains the words:

"We call you now to worship him
As Lord of all.
To have no other gods but him:
Their thrones must fall!"

Which frankly appals me. Not a very positive attitude to people of other faihs.

That would be Graham Kendrick's "Make Way" - 1983, wasn't it?
Posts: 2138 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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Reminds me of the praise song with the line "Our God is an awesome God"

which rather implies that there are other gods after all,

not something that us monotheists should say loudly in worship.

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It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5369 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Reminds me of the praise song with the line "Our God is an awesome God"

Given a dual penchant for Eucharistically-centered worship and bad puns, I usually hear this as "Our God is a gnaw-some God".

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged



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