Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


We none of us live on a high-octane cloud of spiritual transcendence 24/7.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
If any of you are interested there is an excellent article in the latest edition of The Catholic Herald about music in the RC church with the writer suggesting that lousy music may be one of the reasons why the pews are emptying.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

In a small minority of cases it may cause someone to opt to attend a different church, but not to leave altogether. Saying otherwise seems to me to be blame-shifting away from a whole combination of things of which the music is only a (usually) small part: preaching, teaching, pastoral care, sense of fellowship and acceptance, love, community etc.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

But most growing churches use this music too.

The problem is not the music but that churches are allowing guitarists who can barely string three chords together, or even tune their instruments, and have no experience of playing in front of people to lead the worship.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
In many areas there have been not only thriving choirs but churches that have been a beacon of musical excellence which have been systematically destroyed in the name of some spurious 'relevance' by clergy with little, if any, knowledge of either music or poetry, performance or quality.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Not my experience at all - in any case, you're talking about people who already come, while ignoring that fact that many who don't attend are actively discouraged/ put off by the lousy music.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[/b]

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Vicars with all this energy to meddle ought to be sent to one of the many failing CofE congregations that need re-vitalising, not to comfortable churches with excellent choirs.

---

--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posted                          

quote:

---

Vicars with all this energy to meddle ought to be sent to one of the many failing CofE congregations that need re-vitalising, not to comfortable churches with excellent choirs.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
We've had a case of a clergy person moving into a medium-sized parish near here and ridding themselves of organist, choir, the only person in the music group with any talent, plus two out of three Readers in under 3 years.

Colateral damage - in the shape of those who were sacked/alienated being related to people with other jobs in the parish - has been that there is now no Sunday School, creche or youth club. The informal toddler group is still hanging in with the help of the one remaining Reader but the PP has them in their sights as well.

Of the musicians, all have found a welcome at other places within a reasonable distance (yes, some in my own choir); one of the sacked Readers is now number 2 in the Cathedral's chaplaincy team, the triumvirate who headed up creche, SS and youth group have been welcomed as a team by a neighbouring parish (in which one of them already lived). The outlook for the toddler group isn't looking rosy because the PP refuses to advertise that it exists and as the children get to school age they don't go.

The bishop is officially 'concerned' but the PP immediately claimed to be stressed when the damage was brought up and took 3 months off as sick.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

jolly-japes

---

You rang?

--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Albertus

Re your earlier post:

I can see how cathedrals and other historically significant - and well-funded - churches might feel obliged to maintain a specific way of being regardless of who attends or doesn't attend their services. In that sense, cathedral worship isn't personalised by those who participate in it. But I can't see how that would work for the majority of churches, perhaps even for the majority of CofE churches, today.

Speaking for myself, I currently attend CofE worship fully accepting that I have no influence over what happens there (i.e. during worship). But in order to belong in a proper sense I'd eventually have to attend a church where I did feel I could have a say.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Truly skilled practitioners can offer something which "everyone can approach at their own level". But it's a rare gift to be able to do that!

Perhaps a more realistic compromise is a service where there is a "bit" for everyone, and the others are asked to quietly watch the sections that aren't directly "aimed" at them.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Truly skilled practitioners can offer something which "everyone can approach at their own level". But it's a rare gift to be able to do that!

Perhaps a more realistic compromise is a service where there is a "bit" for everyone, and the others are asked to quietly watch the sections that aren't directly "aimed" at them.

---

I'd be interested to know how this would work. The problem these days, of course, is that people have short attention spans. 'Quietly' watching stuff that doesn't interest you isn't what happens in our culture. You might as well give people time out so they can check their phones!

I know of a church in my city that has worship via 'stations'. Different things happen in different parts of the building, all at the same time. The main sanctuary is where people start, and traditional worship continues there. Then these who want to can go off to do other things worshipfully in other rooms. I really must get to this church so I can see how it works, but the problem I can think of straight away is that it's likely to absorb a huge amount of manpower and resources.

---

It works by having people who know what they're doing do it

As others have said, true All Age Worship can be great, but is very difficult to do, and not many folk have the necessary gifting/skill-sets (or interest to develop them, perhaps). Also, I think it's fair to say that to some extent the potential for success is going to be modified by the wider tradition within which you sit. If you're in a tradition where the only "proper" service is one done to a very clear and strict pattern, including structure, forms of words etc. then it is and it is, and that's that in terms of content (although delivery can be widely different, I suspect).

If you come from a lower background where you need to include certain elements, but exactly how is open, you have more leeway to do something that can work for everyone, more or less. "All Age" doesn't have to be a synonym for "primary school", even if it's often much abused in that way.

--------------------
Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
It saddens me that many choose to create churches that are clones of each other without recognising that people aren't all the same and have different needs, particularly as they age.

---