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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
One problem that I've mentioned before is that many non-charismatic late 20th c. hymns tend to be rather worthy, and some of them seem to go out of fashion rather quickly. (What happened to that Wild Goose stuff?)
I wonder if, as with some modern choral music, some of the hymn writers of the future may identify as agnostics, or even as non-Christians. The mainstream churches may well find it hard to find enough talent in their own ranks and, in any case, the CofE already hires organists and choristers who don't have to be religious. Good tunes can be written by any highly talented person, as can lyrics, although you'd need to have a theological adviser on board.
I understand that many musicians are bypassing the mainstream music publishing market these days, so perhaps that could be explored. But yes, the impetus would need to come from down below.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Maybe the writer got mixed up with "rains."
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Sorry, a new page and other posts separated my stupid comment from the post to which I was lamely responding.
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
I would like to register a strong objection to one line in the chorus:
quote:
And like a flood, his mercy reigns
How, precisely, do floods reign?
Really, what seems to have happened here is that the writer has taken the phrase "like a flood" and thought "yep, that sounds Christian-chorusy" and the phrase "his mercy reigns" and thought "yep - definite Christian chorus vibe there" - and then jammed the two together without noticing the appalling final product.
Thus my dumb remark about "rains."
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One problem that I've mentioned before is that many non-charismatic late 20th c. hymns tend to be rather worthy, and some of them seem to go out of fashion rather quickly. (What happened to that Wild Goose stuff?)
We use a fair amount of Wild Goose stuff up here, it features heavily in the most recent CofS hymnary, probably due to John Bell's involvement.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One problem that I've mentioned before is that many non-charismatic late 20th c. hymns tend to be rather worthy, and some of them seem to go out of fashion rather quickly. (What happened to that Wild Goose stuff?)
Worthy and also wordy, good on social conscience but less good as congregational hymns. Andrew Pratt is another example - although I have used some of his.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Re: Amazing Grace,
Are we sure that "reigns" is what Messrs Tomlinson, Giglio et al actually wrote? I've always assumed it was a typo by the person transcribing the music, and that the authorial intent was "rains", a common motif in contemporary worship songs (see "Holy Spirit, rain down" and other such songs). That would, at least, make sense.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Reminds of the prayer allegedly said by a fervent Christian:
"Lord God, if there be any spark of life, any little flame ... Please, God, water it!"
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Consider 'Amazing Grace'. How many modern, moderate, respectable Christians see themselves as ever having been a 'wretches' who were ever 'lost'?
Oooh, you got me going with that, Svitlana!
I guess not many, in my Methodist church, more's the pity. I'm 'only' 45 (which tells you everything about my church's demographics) but that language really speaks to me.
Another one in the same vein, which always brings a lump to my throat:
quote:
...tell me the story simply, as to a little child,
for I am weak and weary, and helpless, and defiled...
Perhaps I ought to seek out Mudfrog in RL.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
Consider 'Amazing Grace'. How many modern, moderate, respectable Christians see themselves as ever having been 'wretches' who were ever 'lost'?
Oooh, you got me going with that, Svitlana!
I guess not many, in my Methodist church, more's the pity. I'm 'only' 45 (which tells you everything about my church's demographics) but that language really speaks to me.
I'm the same age as you. The weird thing about being in a Methodist church is that the term 'young people' can mean anyone from the age of about 5 to the age of 45, or perhaps even a bit older.
The thing with 'Amazing Grace' is that it was written by a man who'd undergone a great conviction of sin. But the Methodist Church doesn't emphasise that experience today. Even talk of 'conversion' is deemed to be rather awkward. Most members were born into the church, and severe personal crises of faith leading to eventual repentance and renewal are more a part of the church's heritage than of its current identity.
Still, there's not much point in apportioning blame to mainstream or charismatic churches for their relationship with music. Christians have different requirements, and it's very hard for beleaguered institutions to please everyone in such an individualistic culture. 'Unrest' must be the natural state of affairs in such a culture.
[ 12. June 2016, 15:37: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Many years ago my wife was asked to play a little ditty which includes the lines:
I’m rejoicing night and day
As I walk the narrow way,
For the Comforter abides with me.
and
I’m as happy as a bird and just as free;
For the Spirit has control;
Jesus satisfies my soul,
Since the Comforter abides with me.
and
There’s no thirsting for the things
Of the world—they’ve taken wings;
Long ago I gave them up, and instantly
All my night was turned to day ....
She refused, on the grounds that they simply weren't true for her or most Christians. Whether it's right for the pianist to tell the service leader what to sing is, of course, a moot point!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Of course she was right. As a Christian she has a committment to speaking the truth, and, it follows, the congregation have a reasonable expectation that she is speaking the truth, in her whole life so far as it is humanly possible, but especially in her ministry. How could she not be right.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It's an interesting idea, to reject certain hymns or songs because they don't reflect the experience of 'most' Christians. It must be easier to do if the song in question isn't a 'classic' (even of the popular sort) in church musical history.
Some hymns and songs are also aspirational, I think. We sing them because we'd like to be in the position of the narrator, not because we already are.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
John Newton was Anglican, of course ...
As was William Cowper.
Times change.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
Consider 'Amazing Grace'. How many modern, moderate, respectable Christians see themselves as ever having been a 'wretches' who were ever 'lost'?
Oooh, you got me going with that, Svitlana!
I guess not many, in my Methodist church, more's the pity. I'm 'only' 45 (which tells you everything about my church's demographics) but that language really speaks to me.
Another one in the same vein, which always brings a lump to my throat:
quote:
...tell me the story simply, as to a little child,
for I am weak and weary, and helpless, and defiled...
Perhaps I ought to seek out Mudfrog in RL.
You rang...
What's the question?
And what's RL?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Of course she was right. As a Christian she has a committment to speaking the truth, and, it follows, the congregation have a reasonable expectation that she is speaking the truth, in her whole life so far as it is humanly possible, but especially in her ministry. How could she not be right.
On the contrary, no-one expects the music to reflect the musician's faith -- especially given the number of parish and cathedral musicians in the UK who appear to have faith in music and don't want to be asked about anything else (and of course I do know that some musicians are ardent believers, it's just that most of the UK musicians I have known are rather more tenuously tied to christian faith than that). Just as no one should expect everyone in a choir to believe everything they sing. If we restricted membership of the organists, musicians and choir community to ardently believing CHristians, it would be a much smaller community.
Moreover, it is the responsibility of the minister/pastor/incumbent to vet the music. If s/he (or the person to whom the job has been delegated) believes it is appropriate, that's the job done.
Honestly, looking at any collection of well-known traditional hymns ("old favorites"), you have to wonder if anyone at all believes some of the things they have all the singers proclaim, especially every one that features "I" or even "we", as opposed to simply praising God.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's an interesting idea, to reject certain hymns or songs because they don't reflect the experience of 'most' Christians. It must be easier to do if the song in question isn't a 'classic' (even of the popular sort) in church musical history.
Some hymns and songs are also aspirational, I think. We sing them because we'd like to be in the position of the narrator, not because we already are.
Well put.
Praising my Saviour all the day long, has never been my experience, but I have no problems singing it as that is what I aspire to.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
RL = Real Life.
Ah, IC.
But why would he want to seek me out in real life?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Because I'm a Wesleyan who (compared to my church) is not very liberal and who likes singing old hymns of redemption. Sorry to have been cryptic - I used your name as ship shorthand for the whole S.A., where perhaps I might find like minds.
cheers
Mark
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
On the contrary, no-one expects the music to reflect the musician's faith -- especially given the number of parish and cathedral musicians in the UK who appear to have faith in music and don't want to be asked about anything else (and of course I do know that some musicians are ardent believers, it's just that most of the UK musicians I have known are rather more tenuously tied to christian faith than that). Just as no one should expect everyone in a choir to believe everything they sing.
I think this varies between traditions. In most Nonconformist (and, I suspect, Evangelical Anglican) churches, the faith of the musicians is considered very important. And this must be true of the vast number of churches where the musicians are volunteers, drawn from the congregation.
I know a traditional Anglican church with a rich musical heritage who appointed a Music Director on largely "musical" grounds. For various reasons he didn't stay long and, when the new job description was drawn up by the (unchanged) Parish Staff, spiritual criteria were placed much higher up the list.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Because I'm a Wesleyan who (compared to my church) is not very liberal and who likes singing old hymns of redemption. Sorry to have been cryptic - I used your name as ship shorthand for the whole S.A., where perhaps I might find like minds.
cheers
Mark
Yes, you must come along.
We produced a brand new song book last year that is for the entire English-speaking SA and it still contains loads of Wesley songs - ones the Methodists haven't included for decades - and loads of revivalist songs.
And guess what? We haven't altered any of them whatsoever for PC inclusive language.
'Ye that are men now serve him' is still there!
And so are the militant imagery ones.
Come and join us!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
I have two songs to complain about. Not the worst of their genre by a long way, but they've been bugging me for a while.
First, we have this exerable first verse:
quote:
Everyone needs compassion
A love that's never failing
Let mercy fall on me
Everyone needs forgiveness
The kindness of a saviour
The hope of nations
Sure, the music might be okay - but LOOK at the lyrics! They simply do not work, on any level. And yet congregations sing them passionately, eyes closed, hands held high... I don't get it.
I dislike that song enormously, and I get the great joy of playing it regularly! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Lucky me.
The words are facile beyond belief, and the second verse is no better - "I give my life to follow everything I believe in" - could just as easily relate to joining the Communist Party or the Girl Guides. It's so unspecific as to be meaningless.
I don't like the music either, sub-Coldplay noodling that it is. (Esp the introduction, if one braves the Youtube...)
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Among the Lutherans I know, faith in a musician is taken for granted. We get squirmy at the idea of someone performing lyrics etc. who doesn't really mean them, or at least aspire to them (yeah, some hymns are over the top). And we will refuse to sing songs we're in disagreement with*.
This is a huge reason why I'm not in the local "praise band." I would be kicking up no end of a fuss about certain crappy choruses that IMHO are pernicious pieces of theological garbage.
* That is, assuming that we're actually paying enough attention to recognize that we are in disagreement with them, which doesn't always happen.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
If there is one song that I absolutely, totally hate with passion it's this one. The music is a dirge, the words are dreadful. I cannot stand it.
How Great is Our God
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by John Holding quote:
On the contrary, no-one expects the music to reflect the musician's faith -- especially given the number of parish and cathedral musicians in the UK who appear to have faith in music and don't want to be asked about anything else (and of course I do know that some musicians are ardent believers, it's just that most of the UK musicians I have known are rather more tenuously tied to christian faith than that). Just as no one should expect everyone in a choir to believe everything they sing.
Speaking as someone who has worked in church music for both the RC and Anglican churches over a period of more than 40 years, I don't think it is necessarily a case of no belief: rather that, in common with many 'traditional' churchgoers (particularly those brought up as regular attenders) we tend not to bang on about what we believe. I can say that part of this can be to do with working closely with clergy who far too frequently treat their musicians with less than any kind of decency, never mind as fellow Christians.
In any case, just because someone isn't prepared to tell you their 'conversion' story doesn't mean they don't have a strong, true and sincere belief, which brings me on to this from Baptist Trainfan quote:
I know a traditional Anglican church with a rich musical heritage who appointed a Music Director on largely "musical" grounds. For various reasons he didn't stay long and, when the new job description was drawn up by the (unchanged) Parish Staff, spiritual criteria were placed much higher up the list.
First, why do you put the word "musical" in quotation marks? If the church in question has a rich musical heritage they surely would wish to appoint someone who could, at the very least, preserve that and, hopefully, build on it: why is that wrong?
Second, what are these "spiritual criteria" and how would the parish staff think they could tell if someone met them? They're setting themselves up for trouble since any musician interested in the post will be likely to have one of two reactions: either they'll read all about these "spiritual criteria" and decide not to apply, or they'll know what responses the parish is looking for and will give them if they decide that the salary, quality of instrument and capability of the choir are what they want.
IMO this notion that one can draw up "spiritual criteria" for a post smacks of thought police: I certainly wouldn't be inclined to apply for a job as a musician where the employer placed my professional facility below their own interpretation of what they perceive to be the quality (decided by them) of my belief.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Quick answer from memory: it was felt that the Music Director's role should include some responsibility - probably not the major part - of the choristers' Christian formation. I haven't got the criteria any more so I can't go into detail.
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If there is one song that I absolutely, totally hate with passion it's this one. The music is a dirge, the words are dreadful. I cannot stand it.
How Great is Our God
I sing that in my head as "How great is this song" (which I think I nicked from a Youtube parody)
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
IMO this notion that one can draw up "spiritual criteria" for a post smacks of thought police: I certainly wouldn't be inclined to apply for a job as a musician where the employer placed my professional facility below their own interpretation of what they perceive to be the quality (decided by them) of my belief.
At our TEC place, our organist is hired as a musician - indeed, our current organist has no particular faith (probably more of an agnostic than an atheist.)
The music director, on the other hand, is not just hired as a musician. The role of the choir is to help the congregation to worship - it's not a performance. The choir director has to understand and be able to do that. We don't have a window into the choir director's soul, but he or she needs to at least put on the act...
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
An honorary uncle in Brighton, where he was organist for the Congregational Church in Lewes Road, of which he was a member, performed the same task in the local synagogue on Saturday, where he was appointed precisely because he did not share the beliefs of the congregation.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I couldn't agree more, Mudfrog.
Meanwhile, even though I tend towards the more chanty/liturgical end of things these days in my own preferences, I've long thought that the musical corpus of the wider evangelical world would receive a much needed boost if it took a leaf out of the Salvation Army's book.
Not all the SA songs are to my 'taste' but they are singable, generally quite well thought out and don't fall into the 'any old platitude will do' trap of some of the contemporary worship songs.
Not only that, but - sadly - there are plenty of songs from conservative (non-charismatic) evangelical stables that never see the light of day across the wider evangelical scene which seems increasingly monopolised by the same small and narrow handful of producers.
It's a shame - evangelicalism ought to be able to do better than that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Perhaps greater SA ecumenical engagement would introduce its hymnody to the wider church. Does the SA participate in worship events with other evangelicals?
And what happened to the SA bands that used to play in public? I haven't seen one for ages.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
My experience of the SA is that they participate fully in ecumenical and inter-church events with everybody - evangelicals and everyone else.
I've been to two large SA rally/service/concert type events and was impressed both by the standard of the musicianship and by the variety of the arrangements - even though it wasn't all to my taste there was a greater range of styles than is customarily found within contemporary evangelicalism.
It wasn't all oompah-oompah by any means. There were choral pieces, solos and a very wide range of styles.
As far as most charismatic evangelical music goes these days, my own view is that it is a victim of its own success and has painted itself into a corner.
I would suggest that an SA style approach is one of several possible ways out of the impasse - others might be some of the 'neo-monastic' liturgies such as those developed by the Northumbria Community.
I'm not sure there's any quick fix though - and in some places, of course, they don't see there being a problem that needs fixing. Those who don't like the worship songs and choruses in our parish either go to the more traditional 9am service or to the other parish in town - or else further into the countryside if they want the real traditional Anglican stuff.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Good to hear about that. It sounds as if the SA might have a calling to represent traditional hymnody within British evangelicalism.
IME the Baptists too like a good trad hymn tune sometimes, but I suppose that depends on the congregation. And the Adventists are very keen on trad hymns.
However, unless an English congregation has a special musical heritage to maintain (which these days mostly applies to the CofE) I don't see the point of going down the trad route. It's not what most evangelical congregations seem to want, and who else do they have to please?
As I say, IMO it's the role of the moderate CofE congregations to produce and support fine trad church music. They do it well, and they should see it as their own special calling.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Good to hear about that. It sounds as if the SA might have a calling to represent traditional hymnody within British evangelicalism.
IME the Baptists too like a good trad hymn tune sometimes, but I suppose that depends on the congregation. And the Adventists are very keen on trad hymns.
However, unless an English congregation has a special musical heritage to maintain (which these days mostly applies to the CofE) I don't see the point of going down the trad route. It's not what most evangelical congregations seem to want, and who else do they have to please?
As I say, IMO it's the role of the moderate CofE congregations to produce and support fine trad church music. They do it well, and they should see it as their own special calling.
No, I'd suggest - and I'm sure the SA would say the same - that the 'calling' of the SA is to preach the Gospel in word and deed. The musical aspect should serve and support that but not be an end in itself ... which should be the same too, for all churches and denominations.
I'm sorry, but you seem to have this notion of 'responsibility' which you seem to apply to almost any church or group that gets mentioned ...
It should be the responsibility of the CofE to do such and such musicality ...
It ought to be the calling/responsibility of the SA to do X,Y Z.
I don't see these things as cut-and-dried as that.
The SA can present/perform its particular musical forms but it's not its responsibility to ensure that others will follow suit or adopt their particular style of presentation - which is actually more varied than might appear from the outside.
Sure, Baptists do like a good traditional hymn as well as the Methodists or anyone else does, and in many (most?) Baptist churches these days there's a mixture of older hymns and modern worship songs.
Likewise with the evangelical end of the CofE.
The evangelical end of the CofE isn't going to push for greater Evensong observance, say or a more ritualised approach to communion any time soon.
Nor are the Anglo-Catholic or the MoTR elements within the CofE going to somehow take-over and impose/promote their particular styles.
I really don't 'get' how you think that any group/inclination or 'movement' within the CofE has more of a mandate than any other when it comes to establishing particular styles of worship.
Sure, in cathedrals and some 'civic' parishes you're going to get the preservation of particularly traditional forms ... but for all practical intents and purposes there's no longer any uniform platform for unanimity on style and presentation within the CofE than there is within the Baptist Union, say.
If anything, Methodist churches appear more 'uniform' to me than anything the CofE has to offer.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd suggest - and I'm sure the SA would say the same - that the 'calling' of the SA is to preach the Gospel in word and deed. The musical aspect should serve and support that but not be an end in itself ... which should be the same too, for all churches and denominations.
Indeed. Despite what you may think of me, I certainly wasn't saying that the SA's job is to ignore the gospel!!! However, this thread is about music in particular, and that's what I was focusing on.
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I'm sorry, but you seem to have this notion of 'responsibility' which you seem to apply to almost any church or group that gets mentioned ...
It should be the responsibility of the CofE to do such and such musicality ...
It ought to be the calling/responsibility of the SA to do X,Y Z.
I don't see these things as cut-and-dried as that.
I'm not sure how I've done that, but you yourself have implied that it's the 'responsibility' of the evangelicals to do X, Y and Z. However, it's still not clear to my why they should feel obliged to promote the kind of music you like.
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I really don't 'get' how you think that any group/inclination or 'movement' within the CofE has more of a mandate than any other when it comes to establishing particular styles of worship.
You've misunderstood me.
I didn't say that the CofE must ensure that all of its churches have to do to the same thing musically. That wouldn't make any sense.
My point was that the CofE in general is the go-to denomination if you want to find a continuing heritage of high quality traditional music. I wrote that this music is specifically to be found in 'moderate' CofE congregations, by which I meant non-evangelical ones. The evangelical ones will obviously do what suits them, as I said earlier in my post. This is the very opposite of saying that there should be 'unanimity' in the CofE.
I think I've also misunderstood you too, though. You complained above that evangelicals are too focused on their contemporary popular style of music, and you wanted them to be more open to traditional styles, like the other congregations. To me, this suggests that you would prefer less breadth of musical expression in the CofE. Is that not that case?
(Of course, not all evangelicals are in the CofE, and I'm not sure if you want to see those outside it moving in the direction of more traditional music.)
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If anything, Methodist churches appear more 'uniform' to me than anything the CofE has to offer.
Very true. But from your POV I thought this would be a good thing. Less chance of bumping into horrible worship music....
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Gamaliel
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No, I'm not saying that evangelicals should promote the music I like.
I'm simply saying that the SA strikes me as a largely evangelical church that uses a wider range of music than you might generally find in a contemporary charismatic evangelical congregation where you pretty much know what you're going to get, for all the claims to apparent spontaneity.
I'm saying that this is a good thing on the SA's part and evo churches of all types could learn from them in that respect.
That's all.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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I see. Well, other evangelical churches will no doubt learn from the SA if they see it as in their interests to do so.
I suppose the SA benefits from being an older evangelical denomination than many of the others. It therefore has its own heritage of singing traditional music that it can authentically draw upon. It's unsurprising that the newer denominations don't necessarily feel the same connection to that kind of heritage.
Moreover, I presume that certain kinds of evangelical in the CofE might ask why they should focus on producing traditional music when their wider denomination is already doing so very successfully. Nothing is actually being lost, especially since most CofE congregations, I believe, still lean in a traditional musical direction.
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Gamaliel
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Sure.
It depends on where we stand, of course, I actually believe that there is a lot that is being lost - some of the more New Wine style evangelical charismatic Anglican services are barely recognisable as 'Anglican' at all.
It depends on whether you think that something recognisably Anglican is worth preserving. I do. Not because of its 'Anglican-ness' necessarily but because I think that the older hymns and liturgies convey things that many of the more modern worship songs and choruses don't.
But context comes into it very strongly, of course - and people don't only get their theology from songs and liturgies - although as Charles Wesley recognised, they'll imbibe much if not most of what they believe from that ...
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L'organist
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posted by Gamaliel quote:
It depends on whether you think that something recognisably Anglican is worth preserving. I do. Not because of its 'Anglican-ness' necessarily but because I think that the older hymns and liturgies convey things that many of the more modern worship songs and choruses don't.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Thank you - that sums up quite a bit of what I feel.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Gamaliel
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I see. Well, other evangelical churches will no doubt learn from the SA if they see it as in their interests to do so.
I suppose the SA benefits from being an older evangelical denomination than many of the others. It therefore has its own heritage of singing traditional music that it can authentically draw upon. It's unsurprising that the newer denominations don't necessarily feel the same connection to that kind of heritage.
Moreover, I presume that certain kinds of evangelical in the CofE might ask why they should focus on producing traditional music when their wider denomination is already doing so very successfully. Nothing is actually being lost, especially since most CofE congregations, I believe, still lean in a traditional musical direction.
I think there are some salient and key phrases in there, SvitlanaV2.
' ... if they see it as in their interests to do so.'
Now, that's a state of affairs that can cut lots of different ways. One could argue that it's in the interest of some evangelical congregations to 'limit' the range of musical expression in order to maintain a particular status quo - ie. the inducement of particular emotional responses.
Of course, that doesn't apply across the board and certainly not to the more 'thoughtful' and reflective forms of evangelical - but at the risk of sounding cynical, I suspect it 'suits' many evangelical leaders to limit the range and scope of what's available to their congregations.
'I suppose the SA benefits from being an older evangelical denomination than many of the others.'
Yes. Which means that they have a broader frame of reference. They draw on the wider Wesleyan tradition and beyond that into the wider Christian tradition more generally - and they'll use material from a broader base.
'It's unsurprising that the newer denominations don't necessarily feel the same connection to that kind of heritage.'
Unsurprising, perhaps, but reprehensible nevertheless. We can't have a Pol Pot Year Zero approach to the faith without causing damage.
As regards certain types of evangelical in the CofE not feeling the need to preserve particular forms of traditional liturgy or musical expression ... well yes, that's part of the problem. They throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Some of these people aren't simply indifferent to traditional forms but actively hostile towards them. That said, some of them are coming back into vogue albeit in a new-ish and post-modernish type of way ... but at our parish the incumbent grudgingly tolerates rather than promotes anything that doesn't fit how he thinks things should be ... he keeps the 9am service going because there's a demand for it from the older people, but I suspect he'd be happier if it withered on the vine.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I actually believe that there is a lot that is being lost - some of the more New Wine style evangelical charismatic Anglican services are barely recognisable as 'Anglican' at all.
It depends on whether you think that something recognisably Anglican is worth preserving.
My view is indeed that 'something recognisably Anglican is worth preserving', but AFAIK the non-evangelical churches are preserving those things rather well. That heritage isn't disappearing (or if it is, it's not the fault of evangelical churches).
Perhaps if one lives in an area where charismatic forms of worship have become highly visible in the CofE it's natural to be worried about the future of traditional practices. But that's not the situation throughout the denomination.
The question as to whether New Wine-type congregations belong in the CofE is a different one, ISTM. But in terms of music, perhaps they'll rediscover an appreciation for traditional heritage when their members get older. For various reasons our culture in general has found it harder and harder to interest young people in classical music.
As for 'singing the faith', I'm not entirely convinced that this is what Methodists do. I think Methodists as a group may be less orthodox in belief than many Anglicans, despite being largely committed to traditional hymns. People often sing old hymns because they're beautiful and they arouse a strong sense of connection with the past, less so because of a shared theology. Plenty of liberals will happily sing about Mary the virgin at Christmas without believing in the virgin birth.
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Gamaliel
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Sure, just as many liberal Anglican clergy are effectively unitarian despite reciting the Creeds Sunday by Sunday ...
I s'pose my point would be that whether people do or don't believe in the sentiments expressed in the older hymns and liturgies, they can serve to draw us back to the grand tradition, as it were.
If all you're going to get in future is 'How Great Is Our God' or whatever popular worship song or chorus happens to be most in vogue, then you're not going to have much to go on in terms of deepening or quickening your faith beyond some kind of fast-food hit.
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http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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Good music doesn't have to be 'classical'.
I'm not saying that all modern worship songs are poor musically or lyrically.
However, they do tend to strike a pretty narrow note.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If all you're going to get in future is 'How Great Is Our God' or whatever popular worship song or chorus happens to be most in vogue, then you're not going to have much to go on in terms of deepening or quickening your faith beyond some kind of fast-food hit.
So your real fear is that most Christians will eventually go charismatic evangelical and that there won't be enough people left in the churches who'll want to 'deepen' their faith in a traditional way.
I think this is a problem that more traditional Christians need to fix for themselves. I'm not sure it's necessarily up to charismatic evangelicals to do what other Christians can't do due to their lack of numbers.
OTOH, the scholarship tells us that in the end, many Christians do move towards a more low-key, thoughtful, traditional way of being church. So as I say, perhaps it's just a matter of time. Ageing members of these 'lively' evangelical churches will want more calming, thoughtful music, and soon they'll be present in large enough numbers for their wishes to be granted.
Maybe secular choirs will rediscover the appeal of traditional church music. This might might raise its stock in many churches.
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Gamaliel
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No, I don't worry that most Christians will go charismatic/evangelical. That's not going to happen.
Back in the day, many full-on charismatics used to hope that would happen but I suspect most will have realised that it isn't.
What worries me is that charismatics may lose connection with the broader tradition and spin off into completely subjective territory.
I think that's already happened or is happening to a certain extent in some quarters.
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http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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In my experience ageing charismatics is that they are like the 'Dad Rock' and tribute-band brigade.
Most don't acquire a taste for broader or more traditional forms of music, they simply go in for embarrassing 'dad-dancing' style attempts to relieve their full-flush of renewal youth.
Or else they drop out altogether ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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Talking about the 'connection with a broader tradition', I notice that the intro to the new Methodist hymn book expresses concern about different traditions moving further apart from each other in terms of hymnody. But the way I see is, what's the point of having a choice of different kinds of worship service if you've got to sing the same old songs at all of them??
You may think this is a facetious thing to say, but that's because my expectations of church music are rather different from yours, it seems. I really do love a rousing, old-fashioned, churchy sing-song, but considering that traditional congregations have been losing members for such a long time I don't think those kinds of songs, or any songs, offer a great deal of protection from anything much. Put another way, I don't find that church music makes up for deficiencies in teaching or spiritual nurturing. And it seems that such deficiencies are endemic in all kinds of churches.
On a positive note, if good ecumenical relations are maintained between churches of different traditions, that often helps with the learning of unfamiliar songs, IME anyway.
BTW, do charismatic evangelicals sing worship songs at funerals, or do they revert to tradition at such times?
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ThunderBunk
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Churches are not supermarkets; they're not different brands. This is a facile way of approaching them,.
Comments which come from that angle are somewhere between unhelpful and wilfully destructive.
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SvitlanaV2
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Criticism of consumerist attitudes towards churches and churchgoing isn't new. The reality, though, is that we live in a world of choice, and it's no good closing our eyes and pretending that this postmodern situation doesn't exist.
On this thread I've learnt that traditionally-styled forms of church worship can benefit from 'church-shoppers'. But I get the impression that the traditional churches that really benefit from such consumer choice are those that really excel at what they do. You're not going to drive past 6 other CofE churches to get to something traditional unless your destination is really special. Are you?
Regarding the loss of trad music among evangelicals, in a large city like mine where many (perhaps most) evangelical churches are multicultural or black-led I feel that such churches are more likely to stick with a percentage of traditional hymns, even though the worship music scene (as well as contemporary gospel music) has made inroads.
[ 23. June 2016, 20:52: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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