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Source: (consider it) Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
mrs whibley
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Does "he's my mate" mean anything different from "he's my friend"? It doesn't in my view, it is just more informal. So where is the theological problem? Style-wise, sure, there will be loads of people who won't like it.

To me, at least, a friend is someone who has your best interests at heart, who keeps you company, who comforts you when you're down, who shares in the good times, who is always on (and at) your side - I'm very happy to claim Jesus as my friend. What's different to me about a mate is that we are equals - and God can never be that. YMMV.

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Albertus
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That's exactly it. Think of, e.g., the expressions 'friends in high places' and 'prisoner's friend' (a sort of lay defence counsel). That's why there's a difference between 'what a friend we have in Jesus' and 'God is my mate'.

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Theophania
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From this evening's service: a disturbing thing that featured the lines

Come have your way among us

(no comment)

and

You are the God who saves us
Worthy of all our praises


Is it me, or is that like saying "Almighty Lord, creator of all that is, with power and love and glory that we can't begin to imagine, we think you are quite good and would like to award you a sticker" ?

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Jonah the Whale

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No, not really. It's more like saying that he's worthy of all our praises. How is that like a sticker?
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Boat Boy
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Theophania - I know what you mean. Such lines sort of seem to imply that God has had to earn our respect...
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Ancilla
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
'God's love is fab'? Ah, there's up to date, relevant language that really speaks to da yoof- ahem.!

We had one today in which the friendship of Jesus was described as "great, brill, wicked, skill"!!

To be fair, the kids (all girls of primary age) were all sufficiently young and unselfconscious to really enjoy doing the actions at the front of church. Those words may actually be so out of date that the kids don't realise they used to be 'in' - it's only cringeworthy for people my age who remember using them!!

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Theophania - I know what you mean. Such lines sort of seem to imply that God has had to earn our respect...

Well, there are bits of Revelation that talk about singing "Worthy"... Rev 4:11 and Rev 5:12 are the ones I hit, not sure if there are others. Don't they carry the same implication? I strongly suspect they'd be the inspiration for the use of the word.

[ 16. July 2012, 06:08: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Stejjie
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Theophania - I know what you mean. Such lines sort of seem to imply that God has had to earn our respect...

Well, there are bits of Revelation that talk about singing "Worthy"... Rev 4:11 and Rev 5:12 are the ones I hit, not sure if there are others. Don't they carry the same implication? I strongly suspect they'd be the inspiration for the use of the word.
There's also similar verses in some of the psalms (18:3 & 48:1 for starters). I wonder if (though this is probably a bit picky) it's the addition of the word "our" that could be the problem - "worthy of praise" could be seen as some sort of universal recognition of God's worth, whereas "worthy of our praise" might suggest it's just us? Feels like splitting hairs to the nth degree, though.

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Snags
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Theophania , if your mind tends towards the smutty, Mr Brenton Brown has written far more challenging lines than that, for singing with a straight face [Smile]

As it happens, I quite like a lot of his stuff, including Praise is Rising, but there are some doozies in there.

[ 17. July 2012, 14:31: Message edited by: Snags ]

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manfromcaerdeon
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I have recently purchased in the local flea market a very small, words-only edition of the Oxford Book of Carols from 1928, barely larger than a credit card.

One carol is called King Herod and the Cock.
Herod had been told that a princely babe was to be born that night.

The last two verses run thus,

"If this be true" King Herod said,
"As thou hast told to me,
This roasted cock that lies in the dish
Shall crow full fences three."

The cock soon thrustened and feathered well,
By the work of God's own hand,
And he did crow full fences three,
In the dish where he did stand.

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ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by manfromcaerdeon:
I have recently purchased in the local flea market a very small, words-only edition of the Oxford Book of Carols from 1928, barely larger than a credit card.

One carol is called King Herod and the Cock.
Herod had been told that a princely babe was to be born that night.

The last two verses run thus,

"If this be true" King Herod said,
"As thou hast told to me,
This roasted cock that lies in the dish
Shall crow full fences three."

The cock soon thrustened and feathered well,
By the work of God's own hand,
And he did crow full fences three,
In the dish where he did stand.

How charmingly reminiscent of Rumbling Sid Rumbold.....

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Mockingale
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On Saturday night I visited a Lutheran (ELCA) church in suburban Orlando that had sort of a charismatic, contemporary worship atmosphere about it. We attended the "traditional" service, which is turns out is "Blended Traditional," mixing old hymns from Evangelical Lutheran Worship with bits of contemporary praise music.

I didn't hate it as much as I feared I might, and most of the contemporary stuff had enough substance that I didn't find it insipid. But after the Gospel reading we sang some little ditty that went:

"Open the eyes of my heart Lord, Open the eyes of my heart, I want to see You, I want to see You."

High Church Episcopalian me cringed.

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WearyPilgrim
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"Open the Eyes of My Heart" is a very popular praise song among churches here in the States that sing such stuff --- despite the fact that the mixed metaphor doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
But after the Gospel reading we sang some little ditty that went:

"Open the eyes of my heart Lord, Open the eyes of my heart, I want to see You, I want to see You."

High Church Episcopalian me cringed.

You are right. It should, of course, have been before the scriptures were read.

I've sung it after communion. That is worth more of a cringe, no?

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Mockingale
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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
But after the Gospel reading we sang some little ditty that went:

"Open the eyes of my heart Lord, Open the eyes of my heart, I want to see You, I want to see You."

High Church Episcopalian me cringed.

You are right. It should, of course, have been before the scriptures were read.

I've sung it after communion. That is worth more of a cringe, no?

You monster. [Ultra confused]
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TomOfTarsus
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quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
"Open the Eyes of My Heart" is a very popular praise song among churches here in the States that sing such stuff --- despite the fact that the mixed metaphor doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Not only doesn't make much sense, but kinda goes
against what we see in Scripture - Isaiah crying "Woe is me," etc. Even angels, when they show up, have to calm their viewers with a "Fear not."

Do we really want to see God, even "with the eyes of our heart? As C. s. Lewis said, only in our better moments, likely.

I try to have patience with such stuff, and even try to ferret out the insipid-ness in the contemporary songs that I like. We are in a period where a LOT of stuff is being produced, most of which is destined for threads like this; but hopefully, if the Lord tarries, a few hundred years from now my favor my favorites will have made the hymnbooks! [Razz]

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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

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Louise
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hosting
On the front page of the board, there is a drop-down box on the top right hand side which offers a 'show threads from last/ show all threads' menu.

If you don't immediately see the thread you want - then either use the search function or set this box to 'show all threads' and hit 'Go'. That will show you all the pages and all the threads in Dead Horses. The thread was on page 2, Balaam.

Or if you don't see a thread in DH and need help finding it - you can always ask Tony or I, we're here to help!

cheers,
Louise
Dead Horses Host

hosting off

[ 04. October 2012, 20:56: Message edited by: Louise ]

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Louise
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quote:
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on 04 October, 2012 02:59 :

In Purgatory I criticized Komensky’s use of the word “ditties” in his Revival post because I suspected that he was using it to make a sectarian rather than an aesthetic point.

However, execrable lyrics and tune combinations undoubtedly exist in the Christian world, and perhaps this is a chance to get them out of our systems.

There are possibly worse examples, but here for starters is a chorus I remember from long ago:-

“Can you wonder at the people feeling envious,
When they see that we’re as happy as can be?
For the glory of the Lord is all around us,
We’re as happy as the birds up in the tree
(Tweet, tweet!).
Allelujah, allelujah, allelujah for my sins are all forgiven.
Very precious is Jesus,
And my heart’s a little Hallelujah Heaven.”

I own a little book of self-published hymns called Above The Clouds And In The Glory, written by a Brethren autodidact back in the 1930s, which is reminiscent of monumentally bad writers such as William McGonagall and Amanda McKittrick Ros.

Here are a couple of samples:-

“Some are faint and weary; some have fallen back;
Some – ah! sad to say it – some have lost the track”.

“Teachings of any and every cult hopelessly lead astray.
Oh! For the light of the truth of God. Oh! For the Gospel ray.”

Hope this doesn’t throw up copyright problems, Heavenly Hosts.


Posted by balaam (# 4543) on 04 October, 2012 10:45 :

I thought there was a horrible hymns and crappy chorus thread in dead horses, but I can't find it.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on 04 October, 2012 10:53 :

That's because the baby Jesus wept so many bloody tears over thing it drowned.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on 04 October, 2012 11:05 :

Back in the day I did a Rant of the Month about it.

How's this one, from that purveyor of lyrical shite, Ishmael?

"I'm a conqueror, victorious
I'm living in Jesus
I'm seated in heavenly places
In him, in him
And the kingdom of God is within me
I know no defeat only victory
Yes the kingdom of God is within me
I know no defeat only strength and power"

But to show that 1970s liberal hymnody can do it too, how about the awful:

"Jesus lives again; earth can breathe again.
Pass the Word around: loaves abound!"

from Fred Kaan?


Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on 04 October, 2012 20:44 :

I am deeply grateful to say that I've never heard any of the hymns or choruses quoted above. Of a dire collection, I think,
quote:
We’re as happy as the birds up in the tree
(Tweet, tweet!).
reaches an abyss that it would be hard to outdo.

There's a chorus I've seen in books but never actually experienced that starts with the words,
quote:
Pierce my ear Lord
I know as well as anyone else the deep Old Testament roots that is drawing on, but as person has got to be very unco good to be deaf to how ludicrous that sounds to everyone else.

Has any shipmate been present when it was sung, and what was the congregational reaction?

Posts copied over from closed thread minus hosting.
cheers,
L
Dead Horses Host

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L'organist
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Dubious words/ crappy hymns are nothing new.

The old Mirfield Mission Hymnal had a splendid number that began "Knocking, knocking, who is there?" I'm still trying to track down a copy - and perhaps stop it being inflicted on another congregation.

My all time worst is "I, the Lord of Sea and sky" - ghastly, it even beats the Farrell "Unless a grain of wheat".

BUT, if you are stuck in a church where this sort of thing is the staple fare there is a game you can play: FIT THE TUNE. For example, "Sing to the praise of Christ, our Sovereign Lord" segues neatly into "Bless her beautiful hide" from Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.

My prize for the dreariest is "From heaven you came, helpless Babe": and I've seen this schedules by a hymn-choosing vicar no less than 6 times between Passion and Easter sundays.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
hosting
On the front page of the board, there is a drop-down box on the top right hand side which offers a 'show threads from last/ show all threads' menu.
hosting off

I was searching "last 30 days". I apologise for the extra work I have caused for the hosts.

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Lucia

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:


My prize for the dreariest is "From heaven you came, helpless Babe": and I've seen this schedules by a hymn-choosing vicar no less than 6 times between Passion and Easter sundays.

So glad to know I'm not the only one who finds "The Servant King" a dirge. It's the tune that is so dreary, the words are no better or worse than many others. And there was a stage when it was 'THE SONG' of the moment and seemed to be sung constantly. Fortunately this is now a less frequent occurrence but I still cringe a bit when I see it come up.

I did once rather embarrass myself in a housegroup when I expressed my dislike for the song and a dear older couple who were part of the group looked a little shocked and then laughed. The wife then told us that "The Servant King" was one of the songs her husband has requested should be sung at his funeral one day!

If I ever get to go to his funeral (not for a good few more years yet I hope!) I shall sing it with gladness for him!

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L'organist
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...and anotherproblem can be with tunes that are written with a 'mood setting' introduction: anyone every managed "Walking in a garden" with a congregation? Me neither.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:


My prize for the dreariest is "From heaven you came, helpless Babe": and I've seen this schedules by a hymn-choosing vicar no less than 6 times between Passion and Easter sundays.

So glad to know I'm not the only one who finds "The Servant King" a dirge. It's the tune that is so dreary, the words are no better or worse than many others. And there was a stage when it was 'THE SONG' of the moment and seemed to be sung constantly. Fortunately this is now a less frequent occurrence but I still cringe a bit when I see it come up.

I did once rather embarrass myself in a housegroup when I expressed my dislike for the song and a dear older couple who were part of the group looked a little shocked and then laughed. The wife then told us that "The Servant King" was one of the songs her husband has requested should be sung at his funeral one day!

If I ever get to go to his funeral (not for a good few more years yet I hope!) I shall sing it with gladness for him!

For a tradition associated with hands in the air "we are always happy" giddiness, it's amazing how many dirges come out.

Does anyone know, other than numbers penned by the Smiths, of course, anything more dreary than the verse tune for "Lord I lift your name on high"?

The words are kludgy as well - first we have the "stringing together charismatic clichés section":

quote:
Lord, I lift Your name on high
Lord, I love to sing Your praises
I'm so glad You're in my life
I'm so glad You came to save us

Line 3 is particularly jarring.

But the real corker is in the chorus:

quote:
From the cross to the grave
From the grave to the sky
Lord, I lift Your name on high

Which reeks of "what else rhymes with 'high'?" if you ask me.

But the verse melody, O Lord, the melody! I really can imagine Morrissey rejecting it as too depressing.

[waits for someone to tell him they love that song and it's really meaningful and etc. etc. etc.]

[ 05. October 2012, 12:43: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
hosting
On the front page of the board, there is a drop-down box on the top right hand side which offers a 'show threads from last/ show all threads' menu.
hosting off

I was searching "last 30 days". I apologise for the extra work I have caused for the hosts.
Someone will be round with a cluestick in due course.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Dubious words/ crappy hymns are nothing new.

The old Mirfield Mission Hymnal had a splendid number that began "Knocking, knocking, who is there?" I'm still trying to track down a copy - and perhaps stop it being inflicted on another congregation.


Here you are (unless you mean the hymnal as a whole). Words by Harriet Beecher Stowe (Uncle Tom's Cabin)- written I take it in response to Holman Hunt's 'Light of the World'.
I've never heard it sung but from the computerised rendition on the web I can imagine it might have quite a good if rather sentimental swing to it when roared out by a crowd in a tin shack or open-air meeting (preferably on a misty evening in the late C19).

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My all time worst is "I, the Lord of Sea and sky" - ghastly, ... .

I don't like that one either. To me, it's preachy and pretentious.

It's also grammatically confusing the way who 'I' is changes between lines.

Do I take it from the silence that nobody's actually experienced 'pierce my ear Lord' sung in church?

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But the real corker is in the chorus:

quote:
From the cross to the grave
From the grave to the sky
Lord, I lift Your name on high

Which reeks of "what else rhymes with 'high'?" if you ask me.

Well, I have no brief to defend this song - I don't like it either. But I do think the choice of words is not entirely banal - it's crucixion - deposition - resurrection (although it does, I agree, sound more like Ascension!)
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Vulpior

Foxier than Thou
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Do I take it from the silence that nobody's actually experienced 'pierce my ear Lord' sung in church?

If you mean "Pierce my ear, O Lord my God, take me to your throne this day." then I sang it many times in the late 80s and early 90s. The imagery refers to Exodus 21:6. Sound imagery and inoffensive 'ditty', IMO. Is your reference to the same piece, or something more execrable?

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Alex Cockell

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But the real corker is in the chorus:

quote:
From the cross to the grave
From the grave to the sky
Lord, I lift Your name on high

Which reeks of "what else rhymes with 'high'?" if you ask me.

Well, I have no brief to defend this song - I don't like it either. But I do think the choice of words is not entirely banal - it's crucixion - deposition - resurrection (although it does, I agree, sound more like Ascension!)
Of course - you need a good bassist to carry "Lord I lift your name on high". The groove is what carries this one...
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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

My all time worst is "I, the Lord of Sea and sky" - ghastly, it even beats the Farrell "Unless a grain of wheat".

Maybe I'm an indiscriminate musical omnivore but I quite like both of those! The former seems to me to be perfectly creditable sentiments of offering oneself to God's service, with associated references to Samuel and Isaiah. The latter has concurrent principles of self-sacrifice that call to mind "anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life my sake will save it".
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Do I take it from the silence that nobody's actually experienced 'pierce my ear Lord' sung in church?

If you mean "Pierce my ear, O Lord my God, take me to your throne this day." then I sang it many times in the late 80s and early 90s. The imagery refers to Exodus 21:6. Sound imagery and inoffensive 'ditty', IMO. Is your reference to the same piece, or something more execrable?
No idea what comes next. As I said, I've only seen it in a book. But it's probably the same one. I can't imagine there are two choruses with the same incongruous first line.

As I said earlier, I know as well as anyone else the deep Old Testament roots it is drawing on. But the picture it conjures up to any normal person is something girls have done as a sort of rite of teenage passage so that they can wear ear rings.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My all time worst is "I, the Lord of Sea and sky" - ghastly, ... .

I don't like that one either. To me, it's preachy and pretentious.


I quite like this one, and I associate it with good memories. I see it as an aspirational hymn; it's certainly not that God has picked me out to do great things for the poor and needy, but it's an expression of my longing to be of use to God and to his creation. And most of it is actually about what God does for us, not about what we're going to do.
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tomsk
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I agree with Svitlana. I think it's meant to be challenging rather than self-congratulatory.
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anon four
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Do I take it from the silence that nobody's actually experienced 'pierce my ear Lord' sung in church?

If you mean "Pierce my ear, O Lord my God, take me to your throne this day." then I sang it many times in the late 80s and early 90s. The imagery refers to Exodus 21:6. Sound imagery and inoffensive 'ditty', IMO. Is your reference to the same piece, or something more execrable?
No idea what comes next. As I said, I've only seen it in a book. But it's probably the same one. I can't imagine there are two choruses with the same incongruous first line.

As I said earlier, I know as well as anyone else the deep Old Testament roots it is drawing on. But the picture it conjures up to any normal person is something girls have done as a sort of rite of teenage passage so that they can wear ear rings.

If it's "Pierce my ear O lord, make me ever true" - sadly I was expected to play and sing it many times in my less enlightened past. I shudder at the thought now. To be fair the horror of that ill-thoughtthrough opening line was always defeated by

"Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth"

Which always made me want to continue with "but I was only kissing you goodbye".... Are the writers' really that pure or am I just beyond the pale in depravity...?


And I can't hear "As the deer pants" without thinking "As the expensive knickers". Probably my mind again.....

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Ό δε ανεξέταστος βίος ου βιωτος ανθρώπω.

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Bran Stark
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Reminds me of the praise song with the line "Our God is an awesome God"

which rather implies that there are other gods after all,

not something that us monotheists should say loudly in worship.

It all depends how you define the word. The language is confusing because we use the same word for "YHWH", "powerful being", and "object of worship". By the first definition, there is only one God. But by the latter two, there are gods beyond number.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But the real corker is in the chorus:

quote:
From the cross to the grave
From the grave to the sky
Lord, I lift Your name on high

Which reeks of "what else rhymes with 'high'?" if you ask me.

Well, I have no brief to defend this song - I don't like it either. But I do think the choice of words is not entirely banal - it's crucixion - deposition - resurrection (although it does, I agree, sound more like Ascension!)
Of course - you need a good bassist to carry "Lord I lift your name on high". The groove is what carries this one...
Would have been simpler if the composer had actually written a melody.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Spike

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Of course - you need a good bassist to carry "Lord I lift your name on high". The groove is what carries this one...

Isn't "good bassist" a contradiction in terms?

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Of course - you need a good bassist to carry "Lord I lift your name on high". The groove is what carries this one...

Isn't "good bassist" a contradiction in terms?
Now, now. But they're certainly rarer than rocking horse shit in churches, IME.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
originally posted by anon four

If it's "Pierce my ear O lord, make me ever true" - sadly I was expected to play and sing it many times in my less enlightened past. I shudder at the thought now. To be fair the horror of that ill-thought through opening line was always defeated by

"Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth"

Which always made me want to continue with "but I was only kissing you goodbye".... Are the writers' really that pure or am I just beyond the pale in depravity...?

I think you are "misremembering" here, and conflating two songs, "pierce my ear, Lord", with which I am, mercifully, unfamiliar, and "Change my heart, O God, make it ever true".

But, surely, even "Lord, you've put a tongue in my mouth" cannot reach the heights of double-entendre-dom of this song. It's got a really good melody, actually, but I think the snigger factor wuld prevent it ever being used in a church!

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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anon four
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
I think you are "misremembering" here, and conflating two songs, "pierce my ear, Lord", with which I am, mercifully, unfamiliar, and "Change my heart, O God, make it ever true".

But, surely, even "Lord, you've put a tongue in my mouth" cannot reach the heights of double-entendre-dom of this song. It's got a really good melody, actually, but I think the snigger factor wuld prevent it ever being used in a church! [/QB]

Ah yes - you're right about my misrmembering. Probably denial.....

I am deeply thankful about never having had to sing the song about the oil....Oh my.

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Ό δε ανεξέταστος βίος ου βιωτος ανθρώπω.

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mrs whibley
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quote:
Originally posted by anon four:
If it's "Pierce my ear O lord, make me ever true" - sadly I was expected to play and sing it many times in my less enlightened past. I shudder at the thought now. To be fair the horror of that ill-thoughtthrough opening line was always defeated by

"Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth"

Which always made me want to continue with "but I was only kissing you goodbye".... Are the writers' really that pure or am I just beyond the pale in depravity...?


And I can't hear "As the deer pants" without thinking "As the expensive knickers". Probably my mind again.....

Fear not, anon four, you are not alone in having a mind that works thus. If you can find the original version of this thread in Limbo or Oblivion, and better still the archive from the very first SoF Boards, and if real life will allow you time to read them, you will find that they start out in very much this vein, and return quite regularly to it!

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I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli

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Vulpior

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Today we sang "Jesu, lover of my soul." But we didn't. We sang "Jesus, lover of my soul." The same Jesus who no longer has a bosom, but a refuge.

Why, why, why make these little tweaks and prevent those of us who know the hymn from memory singing it from memory? It's not like it was reworked to take out "thou"; nor was there alteration to deal with jarring gender-specific language. For the record, I am in favour of the latter, though it continues to irritate me!

Does Wesley's theology really require review by hymn book compiling committees?

Gah!

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Albertus
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I strongly suspect that many of these needless alterations- especially those perpetrated by the thrice-cursed Kevin Mayhew [Mad] - are about establishing a lucrative copyright in someone else's work, at minimal effort.

[ 14. October 2012, 13:12: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
Today we sang "Jesu, lover of my soul." But we didn't. We sang "Jesus, lover of my soul." The same Jesus who no longer has a bosom, but a refuge.

Why, why, why make these little tweaks and prevent those of us who know the hymn from memory singing it from memory? It's not like it was reworked to take out "thou"; nor was there alteration to deal with jarring gender-specific language. For the record, I am in favour of the latter, though it continues to irritate me!

Does Wesley's theology really require review by hymn book compiling committees?

Gah!

I entirely agree. This widespread practice is indefensible and inexcusable. I'd suggest that, if you dare, when you encounter it you pointedly sing the normal words in a very loud voice.

First, the editors of hymn books should respect the verbal choices of the original writer. This one clearly doesn't.

Only a few days ago, I encountered a badly mangled version of 'Be thou my vision'. This provoked in me an 'I don't believe it' reaction. It was in a hymn book which is a notoriously bad offender. Pulping is too good for it.

Second, no editor should ever fiddle with the words of any hymn that is well known, no, never - publishers do you hear that? This is particularly so with Christmas carols.

Third, it is patronising to tone down what the editor might regard as more difficult or old fashioned language on the grounds that some 10 year olds might not understand it.

Fourth, if you don't like the writer's theology, whether it is 'age of gold' or 'the wrath of God was satisfied', either respect him or her enough to leave it alone or don't put the hymn in your book.

Changing the words can only be defended where;

a. The original version is not widely known, so there will be no one who is used to the original words;

b. Very, very occasionally where the original words really are incomprehensible, like Milton's 'Erythraean Main' for the Red Sea, or no longer scan.

c. Where the original English words are a translation, to correct a wrong translation.

Fiddling with grammar to correct perceptions that the language of the past was sexist should only be permissible where it can be done in a way that those who know the original will hardly notice. Otherwise the dogmatically anti-sexist should be expected to lump it. It is their contribution to the unity of the brethren and sistren.

It is never acceptable, and an abuse of the original writer, to replace his or her imagery with the editor's own so as to 'correct' an offending 'men' to 'people' - which then gives an extra syllable and so throws the original scansion.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I strongly suspect that many of these needless alterations- especially those perpetrated by the thrice-cursed Kevin Mayhew [Mad] - are about establishing a lucrative copyright in someone else's work, at minimal effort.

Albertus, I strongly suspect you are right. I know little about the name you mention, and can't comment on it, but it is not the behaviour of an honourable Christian.

--------------------
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L'organist
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quote from Enoch
quote:
Albertus, I strongly suspect you are right. I know little about the name you mention, and can't comment on it, but it is not the behaviour of an honourable Christian.
Mr Mayhew was a chorister at Westminster Cathedral before his voice broke - rumour has it that his chorister scholarship was withdrawn .. info on this gratefully received.

Since forming his publishing enterprise he has specialised in bowlderising hymns, adding his own unique twist to the harmonies of well-loved (and well-written) tunes, and producing organ collections for the nil to modestly talented. His hymn collections (HON or Hymns Old and New) are noted for the small number of tunes compared to the large number of hymns/choruses.

A side product of his activities is to induce a feeling of confusion or unease in worshippers of long-standing as they wonder if they are either losing their marbles or if the words they learned 30+ years ago really were wrong.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
quote from Enoch
quote:
Albertus, I strongly suspect you are right. I know little about the name you mention, and can't comment on it, but it is not the behaviour of an honourable Christian.
Mr Mayhew was a chorister at Westminster Cathedral before his voice broke - rumour has it that his chorister scholarship was withdrawn .. info on this gratefully received.
That would explain a lot: a disappointed chorister, a sort of Phantom of the Opera character, driven by his frustration to spend his life wreaking a dreadful revenge on the entire church music establishment.

The thing that puzzles me, though, is why so many churches buy the bloody things. I assume that, as I believe my own parish didn't, they didn't look carefully at them before doing so. I think I'm going to start taking my own copy of A&M Revised to church to use whenever possible.

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TonyK

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Hmmmm ...

Not being a lawyer I'm 100% sure about this - but I feel that some of the more recent posts are tending towards the libellous.

We simply cannot afford to be sued.

I'm sure you understand...

Yours aye ... TonyK
Host, Dead Horses

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Albertus
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Don't worry- IIRC you can't bring a libel action for 'mere vulgar abuse', which is certainly what I've been trying to indulge in!

[ 15. October 2012, 19:11: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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TonyK

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Abertus - I guess from your post that you are not a lawyer either, and that you are trying to be light-hearted about the matter.

Be that as it may, it is still best not to open the Ship to possible litigation ...

Yours aye ... TonyK
Host, Dead Horses

PS Of course, if you are really registering a complaint about this, please take it to the Styx Board. TK

[ 15. October 2012, 22:01: Message edited by: TonyK ]

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