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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Why a chord using just 3 strings and missing the third is a power chord, I don't know, but apparently it's popular in some modern kinds of music. Maybe you are suppose to distort the sound?
It also makes the chord neither a major nor a minor chord, which creates a distinctive sound. Not everyone's cup of tea of course, but very popular in rock music. I've not come across power chords used much in church songs, though; has anyone else?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
No, because they work by reinforcing harmonics and interference patterns or summat and only really work with moderate to heavy distortion. You can use them without, but they don't carry any particular power. Under heavy distortion however including a third (especially a minor, but a major third as well to a lesser extent) "muddies" the sound - power chords sound much clearer. This is especially noticeable when playing in a minor key (sequences based on e.g. Am, G, F in varying orders) where you want the tonic chord (Am in this instance) to be clear and powerful, not muddy and indistinct.
Come to think of it, they may also reduce dissonance; a lot of rock lead guitar uses blues scales which means you get dissonances between the blues notes (e.g. the third) against major chords. When you're using power chords the sequence may well imply a major tonality, but because the major third isn't actually being played there's less dissonance against the blues or minor pentatonic scale being used by vocalist and/or lead guitarist.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Why a chord using just 3 strings and missing the third is a power chord, I don't know, but apparently it's popular in some modern kinds of music. Maybe you are suppose to distort the sound?
It also makes the chord neither a major nor a minor chord, which creates a distinctive sound. Not everyone's cup of tea of course, but very popular in rock music. I've not come across power chords used much in church songs, though; has anyone else?
The pianist in our new "worship (i.e. music) group" uses them, but I think it's just because she's a somewhat beginning pianist and it's easy. Left hand is an octave of the tonic, right hand plays the melody plus one note, usually the tonic or 5th, might sometimes be the third. But with a guitar or two playing full chords, it's not like a band is choosing power chords, only one of the instruments in the band. And the piano's real, job is the melody, not chords.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
New in my local church, alas.
Holy holy holy Lord
God of power of power and might
Heaven and earth are full of your glory
Hosa-ah-ah-ah-ah-ahna in the
hi-i-i-i-i-i-iest
Blessed is he who comesinthe nameofthe Lord
To the theme song from MASH the theme song from MASH (first 3 lines repeated, third of those lines is modified to stay low).
A most unHosannah-like tune, in my opinion. But supposedly it's joyful because it's MASH and everyone likes MASH; and that the original lyrics are about suicide just makes it "more fun" to sing.
Every week!
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Well, you can do a version of "Glory be to God on high" to the theme of "Eastenders".
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mrs whibley
Shipmate
# 4798
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
New in my local church, alas.
Holy holy holy Lord
God of power of power and might
Heaven and earth are full of your glory
Hosa-ah-ah-ah-ah-ahna in the
hi-i-i-i-i-i-iest
Blessed is he who comesinthe nameofthe Lord
To the theme song from MASH the theme song from MASH (first 3 lines repeated, third of those lines is modified to stay low).
A most unHosannah-like tune, in my opinion. But supposedly it's joyful because it's MASH and everyone likes MASH; and that the original lyrics are about suicide just makes it "more fun" to sing.
Every week!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
I can claim authorship of that little parody!
Someone else, Lord
Please not me, Lord
I am hiding underneath my bed
I won't go, Lord
I'm too scared, Lord
Won't you please send someone else instead?
I know you've posted this on here before - but I still love it, and it was nice to be reminded of it.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, because...
Thanks for this post, K:LB. Interesting stuff.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I, the Lord of Sea and Sky (here I am, Lord!) is known among some musicians as the Bi-Polar hymn, since it moves from speaking as the voice of God to the voice of one of the flock.
Frankly, that doesn't bother me beyond point: we don't sing it at my place because its crap.
A bit late to the fair, I know, but I just wanted to point out that How firm a foundation is also Bi-Polar, as are a number of Psalms.
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
A bit late to the fair, I know, but I just wanted to point out that How firm a foundation is also Bi-Polar, as are a number of Psalms.
Psalm 2 is even in surround sound (four speakers).
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I don't think I've mentioned this one. There's an old spiritual about Jesus walked this lonesome valley he had it walk it alone. And the third verse says we are each alone, too.
Baptism ceremony, lots of assurance about this child will never be alone, God is always with him. Song, third verse we're coming to the part about you are stuck with being alone, I stop singing too startled at the words I had just sung to finish the verse. Pastor lets the song end but immediately loudly declares "that song is wrong, you are never alone, Jesus is always with you, now and in eternity."
Later I asked the music director, curious, why he chose that one. He shrugged, "it's in the hymnal."
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Having had as an earworm the MASH theme since reading this, and discussing unsuitable tunes for adopting for religious purposes, I came up with this. Went back to Victorian times for out of copyright on the tune, and music hall for unsuitableness.
The preacher man said "Follow God's plan,
Don't give way to sinning on the way.
The Bible's got all you need to know in it,
Believe every word, do not dare to bin it."*
But I shillied and shallied, dallied and I dillied,
Left the Way and don't know where to roam.
You can't trust a liberal like an old time pastor
When you can't find God's Way Home."
*I believe that Marie Lloyd may have had problems with rhyming here, too.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Penny S - thanks for that ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
My worrying ear-worm du jour is Meekness and Majesty to the Russian (soviet and current, not tsarist) national anthem ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I don't think I've mentioned this one. There's an old spiritual about Jesus walked this lonesome valley he had it walk it alone.
"Jesus walked this lonesome valley, He had to walk it by himself..."
There's another "verse" I made up with a lot of truth to it when I was younger:
I must go and use the bathroom,
I have to use it by myself.
Oh, nobody else can use it for me,
I must use it for myself.
My mother was not particularly overwhelmed by my creativity, as I recall...
[ 20. September 2013, 15:56: Message edited by: Organ Builder ]
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Penny S - thanks for that
My worrying ear-worm du jour is Meekness and Majesty to the Russian (soviet and current, not tsarist) national anthem
Dare you to sneak it in to a service. I think you might have to drop the repeat of the last line of the chorus, though.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Not sure if this is the right place for this question, I'm genuinely trying to understand "modern worship music" so maybe I can learn to appreciate it.
Why do many of the songs not resolve? Some do, but half of them don't.
In Western music, songs normally end on the 1, the tonic. I'm looking at the music our group is doing.
Better Is One Day, in E, last note is F, the 2nd; or in a different version C, the 6th.
I Lift My Hands, in B, last note is C, the 2nd.
Let the River Flow, in E, last note is B, the 5th.
Open the Eyes of My Heart, in E, last note is E but the chord is B, the 5th.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm not really into worship music ... but isn't it right to ay that quite a number of songs don't resolve in the melody line, however the backing goes on for a further beat or two and does gain resolution?
That seems to be my impression, although some songs do leave one "hanging in the air" - quite effective stylistically but not when it happens all the time.
Nothing to do with worship music, but wasn't it Benjamin Britten who specialised in devising "the right ending in the wrong key"?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Not sure if this is the right place for this question, I'm genuinely trying to understand "modern worship music" so maybe I can learn to appreciate it.
Why do many of the songs not resolve? Some do, but half of them don't.
In Western music, songs normally end on the 1, the tonic. I'm looking at the music our group is doing.
Better Is One Day, in E, last note is F, the 2nd; or in a different version C, the 6th.
I Lift My Hands, in B, last note is C, the 2nd.
Let the River Flow, in E, last note is B, the 5th.
Open the Eyes of My Heart, in E, last note is E but the chord is B, the 5th.
Because they're not written by competent song-writers?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Let the River Flow, in E, last note is B, the 5th.
Open the Eyes of My Heart, in E, last note is E but the chord is B, the 5th.
I fortunately don't know either song, but finishing on the dominant is probably a way of encouraging repeating the last chorus ad infinitum until everyone is suitably hypnotized.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
... or so bored they're losing the will to live.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
Or sometimes they're written for studio recording, and they're written by someone who thinks a fade-out isn't shit.
(Or sometimes they're written by someone who wants to emulate those and sticks with the same approach to ending).
If it's done well, not resolving can be quite nice, for a change. It's not, however, very sensible for a congregational song.
A lot of modern (let's say last twentyish years is 'modern') songs sung by church congregations don't take account of the obvious fact that writing for a solo singer, band or decent choir is very different from writing for a congregation, especially a mixed-age, mixed background, mixed cultures, mixed expectations mixed whatever one.
So maybe the songs have a tessitura that's too wide for people to join in easily, or they put in rhythms that are syncopated or surprising - easy enough for a half-competent learner musician/singer type, but for a person who's just come along to a church service it feels awkward or rocky and they just end up feeling like they're rubbish at singing, or having to concentrate so hard on 'getting it right' that they're not able to engage with the words or the service going on around them. It's a similar thing with an unresolved ending - it feels odd to people, and they don't know why, so it's like adding an uncomfortable silence or tailing off of a congregation.
Sometimes (it seemed increasingly often, last time I was in church) this is the fault of the writer - but a lot of the time it's because people want the sung musical expression of worship to sound like the cd, and because they can sing it along with their iPod, they think a whole congregation can do it too - especially tricky where the resources available to accompany the singing don't complement whatever style they're trying to do.
So there's demand for those songs in songbooks from those who don't know any better, the songbooks sell more copies, making money for their producers, and the composers get some royalties for the reproduction, as well as some of them getting more gigs out of it too. It's not going to change any time soon.
(There are some modern bits of good congregational writing, it would be wrong to suggest otherwise. Stuart Townend or the K & K Getty write a lot of tunes that are good for congregations - regardless of whether you agree with the theology of their lyrics, or regardless of how unpleasant the Gettys were last time i played a gig they were featured in. I've not been around church for maybe four years now, so I'm not up-to-date, but it sounds like the industry's not changed much)
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... or so bored they're losing the will to live.
That way they get to go to heaven sooner?
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Or sometimes they're written for studio recording, and they're written by someone who thinks a fade-out isn't shit...
So maybe the songs have a tessitura that's too wide for people to join in easily, or they put in rhythms that are syncopated or surprising - easy enough for a half-competent learner musician/singer type, but for a person who's just come along to a church service it feels awkward or rocky and they just end up feeling like they're rubbish at singing,
Yup, fadeouts. That may explain the lack of resolving songs even in a final guitar chord? I guess for some worship leaders how the music is on the radio is how the music is supposed to be done?
Awkward rhythms, oh yes. Ten Thousand Reasons would work fine in 4/4 but inserts a 2/4 bar near the end to provide an extra two drum beats while singers wait - effective on stage but confusing for the congregation. I would actually like the song if not for that insertion.
I doubt anyone thinks a band of one or two acoustic guitars, maybe a keyboard, no bass no drums is recreating what is heard on the radio. But might some music leaders be hearing in their minds what the radio version sounds like and "playing along" to that, not realizing what it sounds like to those not "hearing" that radio version?
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
A lot of modern (let's say last twentyish years is 'modern') songs sung by church congregations don't take account of the obvious fact that writing for a solo singer, band or decent choir is very different from writing for a congregation.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Penny S - thanks for that
My worrying ear-worm du jour is Meekness and Majesty to the Russian (soviet and current, not tsarist) national anthem
Thank you- and you have now sent my ears off to "God the All-Terrible" to Rephidim, aka the tsarist anthem. Or possibly "God Bless our Motherland", both in "Congregational Praise" - we never sang them in church, though.
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Awkward rhythms, oh yes. Ten Thousand Reasons would work fine in 4/4 but inserts a 2/4 bar near the end to provide an extra two drum beats while singers wait - effective on stage but confusing for the congregation. I would actually like the song if not for that insertion.
Cut it. Stick a pencil through the 2/4 bar and change a chord or two if necessary if it's making it hard for the congo to sing. The music in a church service is meant to serve the congregation, not the congregation to serve the music.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
might some music leaders be hearing in their minds what the radio version sounds like and "playing along" to that, not realizing what it sounds like to those not "hearing" that radio version?
Yes.
Which shows their own bad musicianship, if they're leading, but actually just following along to an invisible kareoke. They need to spend time working out what works, and if they're going to teach a song that's going to be not intuative for the congo to sing and actually participate in while they're doing it, they're not spending enough time preparing and practising themselves. Just because church musicians are usually volunteers, and because a sunday service is the same people every week, it's no excuse for not giving the very best that is possible. It used to wind me up when I was playing with other pro players who thought a service was a second class sort of effort and didn't apply at least the same level of professionalism to that that they would to a paid gig. Amateur players, even those not very far on with their instrument or voice, giving their best, practising, preparing, turning up to rehearsals on time, thinking and praying about the music they're planning strike me as offering something much more authentic as worship and service than a far better pro player rocking up late, giving lip-service, but never actually turning their brain on - and believe me, I've done the latter. Many times. (Not the rocking up late. I hate people being late to rehearsals of any kind anywhere ever. It makes me want to hit them repeatedly with a spade)
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually in fairness to Graham Kendrick (I can't speak for others), he does know the difference, but struggles because he writes performance pieces for the choirs at events such as Spring Harvest and then people take them home and try to get their congregation to sing them. This is not what they are intended for.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
Yes, a lot of his stuff that's intended for congregation is stuff that is actually quite easy for them to sing and has been written with real normal people singing it in mind (even if not everyone likes its style!).
He wrote a little book about music used in worship & praise, can't remember what it's called - but there're some really good bits in it from what I remember. if I remember rightly, it's useful reading for church musicians of all stripes.
The thing that makes me cynical and annoyed about Kendrick is that he's just so awful when he get his guitar out and strums & sings. I've played backing for him a few times - he can't even tune his guitar properly, and as for putting a tune in a bucket and carrying it... forget it.
He's better at writing stuff than he is at presenting it - at the big events he does this at, like Spring Harvest or whatever, it's not like they're short of people who are quite good at that side of it, it's not like it's a small congregation and he's the only bloke there who can play an instrument or learn & lead songs so he's having to do it out of necessity. It's cringy and cynicism-inducing - celebrity culture for the sake of it (and for the sake of making more money, of course).
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
You are all wrong. Every last one of you.
None of the songs choruses and hymns mentioned in this thread so far are in any way crappy, wonky or terrible....
... at least not compared to a song we had at the Family Worship this morning.
"God is good, good, good, God is very, very good." to the tune of Agadoo.
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
Seriously?
hahahaha ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) hahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahah ahhhahahahaha<falls over>
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
You lot should just turn Methodist and sing Wesley every Sunday; there's none of this 'crappy chorus' and 'wonky worship-songs' nonsense in the Methodist circuits I know. A few dodgy hymns occasionally, but that's it.
However, one Christmas we had to sing 'Happy Birthday' to Jesus. I thought that was terribly cheesy.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
You lot should just turn Methodist and sing Wesley every Sunday; there's none of this 'crappy chorus' and 'wonky worship-songs' nonsense in the Methodist circuits I know. A few dodgy hymns occasionally, but that's it.
Local Methodist church has a contemporary service.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Seriously?
Afraid so.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
You lot should just turn Methodist and sing Wesley every Sunday; there's none of this 'crappy chorus' and 'wonky worship-songs' nonsense in the Methodist circuits I know. A few dodgy hymns occasionally, but that's it.
Local Methodist church has a contemporary service.
Ah, but you're in the USA. American Methodist churches aren't constrained by the circuit system, so they're free to be as 'contemporary' as they want. In the UK they have to convince a bunch of ageing lay preachers before they can take any such step. A big challenge.
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Seriously?
Afraid so.
Who even thinks of that?
Bizarre.
If it's a kids' song it's not like many little people know much about early 80s pop. There'd at least be a seam of logic discernable in using a One Direction tune.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
You lot should just turn Methodist and sing Wesley every Sunday; there's none of this 'crappy chorus' and 'wonky worship-songs' nonsense in the Methodist circuits I know. A few dodgy hymns occasionally, but that's it.
However, one Christmas we had to sing 'Happy Birthday' to Jesus. I thought that was terribly cheesy.
Not all of us Methodists are that enamoured with Wesley hymns
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Seriously?
Afraid so.
Who even thinks of that?
Bizarre.
If it's a kids' song it's not like many little people know much about early 80s pop. There'd at least be a seam of logic discernable in using a One Direction tune.
It started as a joke. The youth leader asked the parents and siblings of the child being baptised what songs they'd like. Agadoo was mentioned as a joke.
So we youth leader wrote some words to the tune. That it was bad was acknowledged up front, everyone knew it was ironic.
As it was an all age worship service we got away with it. I don't expect it will ever be repeated.
But it was bad, bad, bad. It was very, very bad.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Not all of us Methodists are that enamoured with Wesley hymns
Speaking personally, I'd like the British Methodists to add a lot more choruses and worship-songs to their worship. But it's a rare British Methodist who admits to not really liking Charles Wesley at all!
In the USA are there Methodist churches that have ditched Charles Wesley entirely?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
WRT worship songs not going back to the root - this is often due to them being segued one to t'other during a worship set... rather than..
Song.
Something else
Song
Nuther element
Song...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Not all of us Methodists are that enamoured with Wesley hymns
Speaking personally, I'd like the British Methodists to add a lot more choruses and worship-songs to their worship. But it's a rare British Methodist who admits to not really liking Charles Wesley at all!
In the USA are there Methodist churches that have ditched Charles Wesley entirely?
I doubt any church has ditched Wesley completely, didn't he write Hark the Herald Angels Sing?
The 1989 hymnal has about 50 of Charlie's, 5 of John's, out of 700+ total, and there are two more recent (contemporary) supplementary songbooks with probably none, so it would be easy to bypass the Wesleys entirely.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
WRT worship songs not going back to the root - this is often due to them being segued one to t'other during a worship set... rather than..
Song.
Something else
Song
Nuther element
Song...
Well, yes - but I think what she was wondering about was when they're written and published like that.
I mean, if you're flowing straight from one song to another you stick in a little linking passage to get there - maybe it has to take you into the new key, or maybe they're already in the same key and you get away with just not resolving at the end and sticking a dominant 7th at the end of the old one.
That's different from when they actually print & publish songs for congregations to sing that don't resolve at the end, which in a little normal church with an ordinary small congregation and maybe one or possibly two volunteer musicians who might describe their playing ability as about intermediate level, that's hard to carry off without it sounding a bit like tailing off and shuffling away, leaving everyone a bit uncomfortable and feeling like 'it's gone wrong' or something, which perversely makes it more like a performance type thing (and like one that hasn't really worked) than a musical expression as part of a corporate act of worship.
It's only a little thing, but it's not helpful, which is a pity when it could be avoided without much effort
It would take about half a minute for the composer, and about ten seconds for the books' typesetters to put an alternative ending onto songs that don't resolve, which would be really helpful for a lot of congregations and the musicians and singers that are doing their best to serve them.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I doubt any church has ditched Wesley completely, didn't he write Hark the Herald Angels Sing?
Christmas! The time when every 'contemporary' church suddenly turns all traditional in its musical offerings! Or have they written a slew of new Christmas carols to replace the old ones? I suppose people just sing secular Christmas songs if they want something modern.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
The Non-Ds I've been to have no sense of liturgical seasons other than Christmas Day and Easter Day. Same music all year. Felt weird to be in Church the week of Christmas and it's the same music as mid-summer. Maybe songs celebrating Jesus' birth aren't "worship"? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Hark" the herald angels sing is Wesley as altered by George Whitefield.
The music is Mendelssohn.
As for Non-Ds and no sense of liturgical season: try a service on All Souls which starts with Give me joy aka zinger-zanger
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
This
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
That's different from when they actually print & publish songs for congregations to sing that don't resolve at the end, which in a little normal church with an ordinary small congregation and maybe one or possibly two volunteer musicians who might describe their playing ability as about intermediate level, that's hard to carry off without it sounding a bit like tailing off and shuffling away, leaving everyone a bit uncomfortable and feeling like 'it's gone wrong' or something, which perversely makes it more like a performance type thing (and like one that hasn't really worked) than a musical expression as part of a corporate act of worship.
It's only a little thing, but it's not helpful, which is a pity when it could be avoided without much effort
It would take about half a minute for the composer, and about ten seconds for the books' typesetters to put an alternative ending onto songs that don't resolve, which would be really helpful for a lot of congregations and the musicians and singers that are doing their best to serve them.
in fact everything you've written, luv'n'daisies, has been really informative, thank you.
I wish to know - if doing what you suggest would only take a little effort for the composers & typesetters, why isn't it done? Presumably it's been suggested? Is it not thought appropriate, or is there a misunderstanding about how the books might best be used, ie what works and doesn't work for congregational singing as you've outlined? Or, well, what?
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As for Non-Ds and no sense of liturgical season: try a service on All Souls which starts with Give me joy aka zinger-zanger
Reminds me years back of trying to explain that some worship song including the word "Alleluia" (I mercifully have forgotten which one it was; it was dire anyway) was unsuitable for Ash Wednesday. I got a response along the lines of, "you mean you Anglicans don't praise God for six weeks?"
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
quote:
...It would take about half a minute for the composer, and about ten seconds for the books' typesetters to put an alternative ending onto songs that don't resolve, which would be really helpful for a lot of congregations and the musicians and singers that are doing their best to serve them.
if doing what you suggest would only take a little effort for the composers & typesetters, why isn't it done?
I think what is going on is two things.
1. Most of these songs are never written in the sense of a music publisher preparing the song to print and sell. A transcription done by someone (can machines do that yet?) is available from CCLI, but it's taken from the radio performance, if the radio performance does an unresolved fadeout, that's what the transcription shows.
2. People who listen to "Christian Radio" expect the songs to be done exactly as on the radio including fadeouts etc. because that is the "right way" to do the song, just turn on your radio and you'll hear that's how the song is supposed to be done, why would anyone change what the song is supposed to be?
What's really striking me, in contrast to many choir leaders, the "worship leaders" I have met have zero formal music training. The leader is self-taught, learns music (and guitar) by ear, and genuinely believes the only valid questions about any song are "do I like it?" and "is it addressed to God with words of praise?"
Having never heard the concept that some songs are written for solo performance instead of congregational singing, or that fadeouts are post recording mechanical manipulation for theatrical effect, what they hear if you raise those issues is "people invent stupid excuses to complain" and turn away, seeing no reason to discuss it.
How does one raise the question of turning a performance song into a congregational song if the leader believes there is no such thing as that difference? He does *not* want an added measure at the end resolving the chord if the radio "proves" it's not supposed to have that. If you add it, he'll take it off.
Actually, he won't know you added it in the sheet music, the "praise band" leaders I've met don't read music, and don't see any reason to learn. (Those who do read music probably are puzzled if a written song ends "wrong" - e.g. resolved - instead of matching the radio.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Found this in another place - thought it might be relevant here. Praise songs and hymns
I have a slight quibble with what the second person uses as an example, but no matter.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Sigh.
Lord I lift you name up high has the line "from the earth to the cross my debt to pay" which surprised me, I didn't know TEC endorses PSA.
Lamb of God, someone up thread already pointed out the "guilty sod" makes no sense, the sod is not guilty of anything.
I can only imagine - I cannot get the rhythm of the verse! Not sure what it means to "find myself standing in the Son."
How great is our God - "he wraps himself in light - I thought he is the light, no? Guess I need to relearn basic theology.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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