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Source: (consider it) Thread: Where did the demonisation of homosexuality come from?
Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
I'm really only saying that vitriol is against Christians for holding their views and speaking up for their beliefs is wrong.

<snip>

Saying homosexuality is immoral is not hateful.

This seems to summarize Aijalon's argument for the special privilege he feels his own position should be accorded. Something along the lines of "We get to pass judgment on you immoral sinners, but you don't get to have an opinion about us". I believe there may actually be some scriptural basis for this:

quote:
Judge others, that ye shall be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye must not be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall not be measured to you again.

Or something like that. I guess it depends on which translation you use. [Big Grin]

Part of the problem is that Christians and Christianity seem to expect a certain amount of deference to their own moral superiority. When that superiority is questioned they seem equal parts flummoxed and offended. An example from a few years back from Fred Clark:

quote:
For decades, the religious right has been pre-occupied with two issues above all else: abortion and homosexuality. And on both of those issues, they have wielded power and influence by claiming the moral high ground — claiming to represent the godly, “biblical” truth of right and wrong. Anyone who disagreed with them on these issues was portrayed as less moral, less godly, less good.

That claim — that framing of these issues as right vs. wrong, good vs. evil, biblical vs. unbiblical, moral vs. immoral — was asserted and accepted for most of the religious right’s 30-year run.

But not any more. That claim is still being asserted, but it is no longer being accepted.

<snip>

For decades, the religious right has been arguing that their purchase on the moral high ground ought to result in their political triumph. The political opposition to that used to be a form of “yes, but …” — yes, these political preachers are correct about morality and immorality, but other factors need to be considered, or other complications have to be accounted for, etc.

Opposition to the religious right’s agenda on Tuesday [November 6, 2012] did not take the form of this “yes, but …” argument. It was simply, “No.”

It was not a disagreement about the political implications of the preachers’ righteous moral claims, but a denial of those claims, of their righteousness and of their morality. No, these political preachers are incorrect about morality and immorality. No, pretending that some “biblical definition of marriage” is a pretext for denying people their rights or delegitimizing their families is not good or decent or right.

All italics from the original, which is worth a read in its entirety.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
While I'm not so fond of Mousethief's intervening

If by this you mean I was junior hosting, that was not what I intended to do, and apologize for cutting too close to the line.

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Aijalon
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Crœsos: You're comparing me to a stereotype of Christian gay-bashers, I'm not political, didn't vote for trump, quit caring about gay marriage laws. I don't believe that it's God's duty to bless America, or that God will curse us for "turning out back" on morality. I advocated that the Oregon cake shop should just pay the fine for discrimination, it's the law, and Jesus said pay your taxes.

As your article pointed out, the political advantages for right wing Christians have just about evaporated, but a lot of Christians are pouting about this. This translates into a political mindset.

I really don't share the political mindset, just don't. So you may gloat all you like, this will terribly irritate many a Christian, doesn't really bother me. For me this is about the church's inner core beliefs. It's about how the church should deal with social issues internally. It needs to be on the right track internally before it can spread out politically.

You also stated upwards I think twice about my use of the term "detestable". I had thought we had an academic discussion about the use of that word as far as its impetus to create socio-political will power in the Hebrews to enforce the code.

The following link shows that's the word in use in various translations

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20.htm

Out of the three listed translations on the default page, detestable is used by three.

I most often rely on the consistency of Young's Literal Translation, which has similarities with the KJV.

Young's uses the term "abomination". That seems pretty straightforward, I don't think that sounds any better to you than detestable though.
http://biblehub.com/ylt/leviticus/20.htm

Point being, the Bible as a moral resource begs for an interpretation that can be applied to our time. I hold that the Bible is a true story, and I'm progressing more toward symbolic and figurative interpretations in time, as the literal ones have often failed me (still insist on strict interpretations of terms if at all possible). I definitely don't think the Bible tells us "everything" we need to know about God, as much as theologians tell me so. Biblical interpretation is the point of the other thread I guess. My point in this thread I suppose, was, that it's obvious where demonization comes from. Perhaps the simple way to put it is - bad combination of Christianity and Politics.

[ 22. June 2017, 15:44: Message edited by: Aijalon ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:

I most often rely on the consistency of Young's Literal Translation, which has similarities with the KJV.

There's your problem.¹ Translation across time doesn't work that way.² Context is everything.


¹One of them.
²Actually doesn't work that way in contemporaneous translation either.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
I really don't share the political mindset, just don't. So you may gloat all you like, this will terribly irritate many a Christian, doesn't really bother me.

This would be more believable if you didn't consider pointing out that homosexuals have equal rights under law to be "gloating". That interpretation implies a lot of discontent with the political fact that the state now treats homosexuals a lot closer to on par with heterosexuals than it has in the past.

[ 22. June 2017, 17:22: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Aijalon
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
I really don't share the political mindset, just don't. So you may gloat all you like, this will terribly irritate many a Christian, doesn't really bother me.

This would be more believable if you didn't consider pointing out that homosexuals have equal rights under law to be "gloating". That interpretation implies a lot of discontent with the political fact that the state now treats homosexuals a lot closer to on par with heterosexuals than it has in the past.
As I recall, I was responding to the tone of article you linked to. Smacked of a little gloating, just sayin. You don't think it was eh?


..........I've been sick and will try to catch up with other posts as I can.

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Martin60
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Glad you're better and back mate. That's impressive. We won't give up on you.

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Love wins

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
... You also stated upwards I think twice about my use of the term "detestable". I had thought we had an academic discussion about the use of that word as far as its impetus to create socio-political will power in the Hebrews to enforce the code.

The following link shows that's the word in use in various translations

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20.htm

Out of the three listed translations on the default page, detestable is used by three.

I most often rely on the consistency of Young's Literal Translation, which has similarities with the KJV.

Young's uses the term "abomination". That seems pretty straightforward, I don't think that sounds any better to you than detestable though.
http://biblehub.com/ylt/leviticus/20.htm ...

Just out of curiosity, have you ever read any part of the Bible translated into a language other than English? Cuales son algunos sinonimos de "abomination" en espanol?*

Christianity came into existence at a time when the vast majority of people were illiterate, the experts on the Old Testament were Jewish, and Young's Literal Translation and the KJV didn't exist. How do you think those Christians learned Christianity? They relied on the instructions of their leaders and spiritual advisors, the lives of the saints, the teachings of the church fathers, and the traditions of the Church. The Trinity that Christians worship is not "The Bible, some translations, and my thesaurus".


---
*What are some synonyms of "abomination" in Spanish? Aversion (aversion), odio (hatred), repulsion (revulsion), aborrecimiento (abhorrence), rencor (resentment), ojeriza (spite), repugnancia (repugnance), asco (disgust), execración (execrable), horror (horrible), pánico (panic), espanto (fright).

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Aijalon
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I meant to say that out of five translations 3 agreed with the same word. I am merely pointing out that I'm not pulling this out of the air.

Hi Soror, what method would you suggest we use to come up with the right word. I don't think mocking the process or the scholar for giving us tools to work with is very helpful.

No one is worshiping a thesaurus here just for using one.

The point about Young's literal translation, if you care to know, is that Robert Young insisted on translation consistency, whereas the KJV was made in favor of artistic readability in some ways, and it has many different words in place of a single Hebrew one.

If anything, Young was probably agreeing with you that we should not need to consult a thesaurus constantly when we're reading the text.

[ 30. June 2017, 20:25: Message edited by: Aijalon ]

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
... Hi Soror, what method would you suggest we use to come up with the right word. ....

I suggest worrying less about words, and worrying more about human beings. Human beings are so much more than just words someone may choose to describe them.

ETA And there's really no such thing as a "literal" translation. Of anything. Perhaps you mean "word for word", but that is still choosing a word - among other words of similar meaning - from another language.

[ 01. July 2017, 04:20: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:

My point in this thread I suppose, was, that it's obvious where demonization comes from. Perhaps the simple way to put it is - bad combination of Christianity and Politics.

It's clear to me where it comes from - fear. Fear of the 'other' plus a large dash of misogyny.

Religion and politics are merely vehicles which, often, carry these two attitudes. They are useful in that they rationalise sexual prejudice.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
ETA And there's really no such thing as a "literal" translation. Of anything. Perhaps you mean "word for word", but that is still choosing a word - among other words of similar meaning - from another language.

And meaning can actually sometimes be lost or obscured in a word for word translation, as with idioms.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
ETA And there's really no such thing as a "literal" translation. Of anything. Perhaps you mean "word for word", but that is still choosing a word - among other words of similar meaning - from another language.

And meaning can actually sometimes be lost or obscured in a word for word translation, as with idioms.
And at least with anything from the OT, not just a different language but a different language system.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
I meant to say that out of five translations 3 agreed with the same word. I am merely pointing out that I'm not pulling this out of the air.

Hi Soror, what method would you suggest we use to come up with the right word. I don't think mocking the process or the scholar for giving us tools to work with is very helpful.

No one is worshiping a thesaurus here just for using one.

The point about Young's literal translation, if you care to know, is that Robert Young insisted on translation consistency, whereas the KJV was made in favor of artistic readability in some ways, and it has many different words in place of a single Hebrew one.

If anything, Young was probably agreeing with you that we should not need to consult a thesaurus constantly when we're reading the text.

You're locked in an ancient prison of distorting mirrors. The way out is over them.

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Love wins

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Barnabas62
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Here's a link.

I haven't checked the provenance of the site, but the OT use is quite wide ranging, and some of those usages strike me as arcane.

Plus I rather like the idea that a more accurate word than "abomination" is "taboo" i.e a social or religious custom.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Sioni Sais
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Sometimes I think Muslims are very fortunate in that the Koran was given in Arabic and written in Arabic, sparing the kerfuffle of versions, translations and interpretation.

It may be wrong, but it is consistently wrong.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Aijalon
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
I meant to say that out of five translations 3 agreed with the same word. I am merely pointing out that I'm not pulling this out of the air.

Hi Soror, what method would you suggest we use to come up with the right word. I don't think mocking the process or the scholar for giving us tools to work with is very helpful.

No one is worshiping a thesaurus here just for using one.

The point about Young's literal translation, if you care to know, is that Robert Young insisted on translation consistency, whereas the KJV was made in favor of artistic readability in some ways, and it has many different words in place of a single Hebrew one.

If anything, Young was probably agreeing with you that we should not need to consult a thesaurus constantly when we're reading the text.

You're locked in an ancient prison of distorting mirrors. The way out is over them.
*yoda voice* how very wise you sound, yes!

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God gave you free will so you could give it back.

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Aijalon
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
... Hi Soror, what method would you suggest we use to come up with the right word. ....

I suggest worrying less about words, and worrying more about human beings. Human beings are so much more than just words someone may choose to describe them.

ETA And there's really no such thing as a "literal" translation. Of anything. Perhaps you mean "word for word", but that is still choosing a word - among other words of similar meaning - from another language.

The Bible is an ancient document, full of words. The words mean something. Scholars often think too much of words, I'm not a scholar, but without them we would know nothing at all about the meaning of ancient words, it would all be forgotten.

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God gave you free will so you could give it back.

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lilBuddha
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Dude,
You need to try smoking a different strain or hit it with less enthusiasm.
If you are trying to be funny, you failed.
If your were attempting to communicate anything significant; massive fail.
Did you not understand what Soror Magna said? Because you didn't address it. Perhaps we can find a more simple way to explain the concept.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
... Hi Soror, what method would you suggest we use to come up with the right word. ....

I suggest worrying less about words, and worrying more about human beings. Human beings are so much more than just words someone may choose to describe them.

ETA And there's really no such thing as a "literal" translation. Of anything. Perhaps you mean "word for word", but that is still choosing a word - among other words of similar meaning - from another language.

The Bible is an ancient document, full of words. The words mean something. Scholars often think too much of words, I'm not a scholar, but without them we would know nothing at all about the meaning of ancient words, it would all be forgotten.
Meaning precedes and transcends words. To be imprisoned by them is loss of freedom.

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Love wins

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Aijalon
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Dude,
You need to try smoking a different strain or hit it with less enthusiasm.
If you are trying to be funny, you failed.
If your were attempting to communicate anything significant; massive fail.
Did you not understand what Soror Magna said? Because you didn't address it. Perhaps we can find a more simple way to explain the concept.

Maybe you would do well to refrain from only trying to inflame everything with inane characterizations of me as a drug abuser, it's lame bro. Or is this all about you looking like the comedian?

Maybe Soror will come along and give us some more good advice about interpretation. Or maybe he only wishes to disqualify all Biblical interpretations on said subject so no discussion can go on.

Leviticus is often mentioned by rarely quoted, though people seem to be familiar with it, the discussion is always glancing off the actual subject at hand.

In the American Standard:

LEV 20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

If abomination is not good, then what fits? I don't think anyone is going to find anything favorable. Perhaps a scholar has?

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Aijalon
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Dude,
You need to try smoking a different strain or hit it with less enthusiasm.
If you are trying to be funny, you failed.
If your were attempting to communicate anything significant; massive fail.
Did you not understand what Soror Magna said? Because you didn't address it. Perhaps we can find a more simple way to explain the concept.


Maybe you would do well to refrain from only trying to inflame everything with inane characterizations of me as a drug abuser, it's lame bro. Or is this all about you looking like the comedian?

Maybe Soror will come along and give us some more good advice about interpretation. Or maybe he only wishes to disqualify all Biblical interpretations on said subject so no discussion can go on.

Leviticus is often mentioned by rarely quoted, though people seem to be familiar with it, the discussion is always glancing off the actual subject at hand.

In the American Standard:

LEV 20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

If abomination is not good, then what fits? I don't think anyone is going to find anything favorable. Perhaps a scholar has?

Point being, this is the source of where the demonization comes from, I'm not saying that demonization is the right thing, simply for this thread anyway that it hasn't come from nowhere, and I don't think it will just go away either, that is, unless we just stop caring about interpretation completely.

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God gave you free will so you could give it back.

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Nicolemr
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You do know that eating shellfish is also described as an "abomination" too, don't you? As well as many other things.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
Maybe you would do well to refrain from only trying to inflame everything with inane characterizations of me as a drug abuser, it's lame bro. Or is this all about you looking like the comedian?

Whilst I admit I think it is amusing, it was a metaphor.
Your postings have often been confused, erratic and lack cohesion. Though I still think your apparent position will be equally as ridiculous, it would be easier to engage were it more coherent.
Essentially, it does not matter if a particular passage thinks homosexuality is an abomination unless one thinks everything in the Bible is literal. And then you run into the inconvenient and the inconsistent.
And this is why pointing in the text to say this is where the demonisation comes from is off. Because you lot ignore much else, why not this?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
... Maybe Soror will come along and give us some more good advice about interpretation. Or maybe he only wishes to disqualify all Biblical interpretations on said subject so no discussion can go on. ...

"Soror Magna" is crappy Latin for "big sister". Carry on translating. And assuming.
[Killing me]

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
I meant to say that out of five translations 3 agreed with the same word. I am merely pointing out that I'm not pulling this out of the air.

Because of course theology is a democracy. Majority wins.

quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
*yoda voice* how very wise you sound, yes!

This is not gloating. It's nasty.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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John Holding

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Aljalon:

A Hostly warning: You're straying awfully close to personal attack in some of your recent posts. I suggest you cool your jets a little, and start adding light, not heat, to the temperature on this Board. For heat we have Hell, and at the rate you're going, someone (not me) is sure to decide that's the best place to deal with you.

John Holding
Host in Dead Horses

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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Just as a point of interest, Aljalon already has been called to Hell, but afaik has never bothered to post on the thread.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Aijalon
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
... Maybe Soror will come along and give us some more good advice about interpretation. Or maybe he only wishes to disqualify all Biblical interpretations on said subject so no discussion can go on. ...

"Soror Magna" is crappy Latin for "big sister". Carry on translating. And assuming.
[Killing me]

Ok, sister (Sorry, I don't know Latin) tell me how one should approach translation of this verse, I'm wide open to discussion. If you just don't believe that we can make sense of it because there are too many competing translations or hermeneutic options.... then say that.

I have various translations and consult whatever sources I can for the best and clearest view I can possibly get. What do suggest I do? What do you do?

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God gave you free will so you could give it back.

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Aijalon
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John Holding,

I will start a thread in Styx, not inclined to say anything in Hell.

All the best.

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God gave you free will so you could give it back.

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
Ok, sister (Sorry, I don't know Latin) tell me how one should approach translation of this verse, I'm wide open to discussion. ...

Well, if you know English, you know some Latin. Magnanimous. Sorority. You know lots of other words that have Latin roots. Question. Discussion. Vacuous. Specious.

My point is that you failed to notice linguistic details like foreign root words and gender when reading material written by a contemporary in your own language. Maybe this translating thing isn't as simple as you think it is.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Martin60
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Again, to answer the OP, it comes from our narrow, perverted misunderstanding of the New Testament 'clobber' verses.

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Love wins

Posts: 16586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Aijalon
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
Ok, sister (Sorry, I don't know Latin) tell me how one should approach translation of this verse, I'm wide open to discussion. ...

Well, if you know English, you know some Latin. Magnanimous. Sorority. You know lots of other words that have Latin roots. Question. Discussion. Vacuous. Specious.

My point is that you failed to notice linguistic details like foreign root words and gender when reading material written by a contemporary in your own language. Maybe this translating thing isn't as simple as you think it is.

You seem to say you know something, so please share it, what have I missed out of the verse?

You can have the last word, this is my last post on the subject.

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God gave you free will so you could give it back.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Dude,
You need to try smoking a different strain or hit it with less enthusiasm.
If you are trying to be funny, you failed.
If your were attempting to communicate anything significant; massive fail.
Did you not understand what Soror Magna said? Because you didn't address it. Perhaps we can find a more simple way to explain the concept.


Maybe you would do well to refrain from only trying to inflame everything with inane characterizations of me as a drug abuser, it's lame bro. Or is this all about you looking like the comedian?

Maybe Soror will come along and give us some more good advice about interpretation. Or maybe he only wishes to disqualify all Biblical interpretations on said subject so no discussion can go on.

Leviticus is often mentioned by rarely quoted, though people seem to be familiar with it, the discussion is always glancing off the actual subject at hand.

In the American Standard:

LEV 20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

If abomination is not good, then what fits? I don't think anyone is going to find anything favorable. Perhaps a scholar has?

Point being, this is the source of where the demonization comes from, I'm not saying that demonization is the right thing, simply for this thread anyway that it hasn't come from nowhere, and I don't think it will just go away either, that is, unless we just stop caring about interpretation completely.

What's that 3500 year old Bronze Age homophobia got to do with anything? Apart from showing glacial cultural evolution to date?

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Love wins

Posts: 16586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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posted by Martin60
quote:
What's that 3500 year old Bronze Age homophobia got to do with anything? Apart from showing glacial cultural evolution to date?
[Overused]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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