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Source: (consider it) Thread: And there's another gay bakery case
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

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The emotional suffering damages in the Portland case are directly related to the efforts by the bakery owner to provoke a backlash against the couple who initiated the claim. The decision calls this out specifically.

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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

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Crœsos
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# 238

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Part of my problem with a lot of the arguments for religious conscience exemptions from generally applicable laws is that the arguments seem to involve a lot of special pleading and self-interested double standards.

There was an incident a few years back where a Justice of the Peace refused to sign the marriage license of an inter-racial couple. There was a lot of commentary on his actions (or rather his inactions), most of it negative. How did Louisiana Governor Piyush "Bobby" Jindal react?

quote:
Jindal said the state judiciary committee should review the incident in which Keith Bardwell, justice of the peace for Tangipahoa Parish's 8th Ward, refused to issue a marriage license to Beth Humphrey, 30, and her boyfriend, Terence McKay, 32, both of Hammond.

"This is a clear violation of constitutional rights and federal and state law. ... Disciplinary action should be taken immediately -- including the revoking of his license," the Republican governor said.

Fair enough. Hammond wasn't a clergyman, serving the idiosyncratic religious doctrines of his congregation. He was a government official performing a government service for the people of his jurisdiction, so it seems reasonable that he should both follow the government's standards and serve all the citizens of his jurisdiction who are entitled to his services. So far, so good.

Fast forward to 2015. Same-sex marriage becomes legal in all fifty states. Does the same reasoning apply? Of course not! Take it away, Governor Jindal:

quote:
Gov. Bobby Jindal's administration has said Louisiana court clerks and other state employees who don't want to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples because of religious objections won't have to do so.

Jindal's office has said the governor's religious freedom executive order as well as state and federal law will protect clerks and state employees who have moral objections to gay marriage and don't feel comfortable handing out licenses to same-sex couples.

"We believe the U.S. Constitution, Louisiana Constitution, Louisiana's Preservation of Religious Freedom Act, as well as our Executive Order prevents government from compelling individuals to violate sincerely held religious beliefs. We will continue to fight to protect religious liberty," said Mike Reed, spokesman for the governor's office.

So Mr. Hammond's strong and sincere objections to inter-racial marriage aren't sufficient to protect him from the consequences of not doing his job, but anti-gay prejudice should be protected?

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that what's being sought isn't so much a general right of conscience under which any government official can discriminate against any member of the public if they feel like they should be able to. What's being sought is a protection for a specific set of prejudices. Is there any reason why Mr. Bardwell's racism is less worth of protection than other government officials hatred of homosexuals? I can't see any, other than the fact that racism is generally disapproved of more strongly than gay hate.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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You can test it by swapping out the word 'gay' for some other word. Like say 'Jewish' or 'black' or 'Asian'. Sounds nasty? Then it is.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Pigwidgeon

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# 10192

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This just in -- Court Rules Bakery Illegally Discriminated Against Gay Couple.
[Overused]

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Soror Magna
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From the link:

quote:
... Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.” ...
OK, so he played the pedophile card, but he's ok with dogs getting married. To another dog!!!!!

[Killing me]

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Did he check that it was a dog and a bitch?
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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Did he check that it was a dog and a bitch?

[Killing me] [Overused] [Killing me] [Overused]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Soror Magna
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And there's another one:
Calgary Transit pride bus has driver threatening to quit

But I'll bet he loves to drive the Rudolph bus during the holidays, because everyone knows Rudolph and Santa were Fathers of the Church. (Assuming Calgary HAS a Rudolph bus. Caprica City has two!)

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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lilBuddha
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He is an idiot.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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LeRoc

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If he wants to quit, go ahead.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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Honestly, why is he even raising it? It might be worth raising if he'd actually been assigned to that bus - although I wouldn't have an enormous amount of sympathy for him, it might not even be that difficult to just have him drive another vehicle.

But he's decided to complain about the prospect of him, or even another bus driver, being required to drive a rainbow bus. Methinks he's being far too precious about it and is showing a spectacular lack of workplace negotiation skills.

Honestly, any normal person's first option when something comes up in a workplace that they don't personally want to do is to softly explore whether someone else can do it instead. Not go "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Penny S
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But isn't there a group of people who have been enticed into believing that this oppression is happening, backed up by people prepared to bear the legal costs? If your coterie believe this stuff, it would be hard not to join in and go round looking for hardships to protest.
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orfeo

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Yeah, but even someone backing court cases would want a case where something had actually happened. This guy is just engaging in catastrophic thinking and running with it.

What's the legal remedy? First thing a court would do is say "is there any evidence your employer planned to roster you on that bus?", and when the answer is No the judge will just tell him to stop wasting everybody's time. Courts absolutely hate being asked to rule on hypotheticals.

[ 01. September 2015, 11:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Soror Magna
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Update on the bus driver from Calgary: he has been fired....

... but not for refusing to drive the Pride bus. The employer had promised him he wouldn't have to drive the bus. He was fired for a) lying to the media about it and b) posting Nazi shit on his Facebook page, where he identified himself as a transit employee.

Sure looks like, as we say here on the Ship, he wasn't persecuted because he's a Christian, he was fired because he's a prat.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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orfeo

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# 13878

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I can't say I'm surprised, given how incongruous the original story was. This guy was angling for manufactured outrage.

And now he's got his martyrdom.

I doubt it's going to get him far in Canada, though. Such tactics might succeed in some parts of the United States, but my impression is that north of the border he won't get much sympathy at all.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Alogon
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# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Baking and providing a cake and being asked to put a message on it are different things entirely. And very clearly a trolling attempt by the orderer.

It's an ingenious one, though. I've become very fond lately of such clever, satirical, ironic initiatives, no matter which side they support or appear to support. Bullies from Satan on up can't abide a good belly laugh. If you can deflate any kind of humorless, finger-wagging authority in this manner, I reckon that you're on the side of the angels.

No one I've come across in years has changed my mind about so many issues so quickly as Milo Yiannopoulos.

Here he is on the topic. Excerpts:

"I've been very ashamed of my fellow homosexuals in the way they have behaved toward Christians in some of the media circuses that have happened recently... We don't need to give gay people any time to be bullies.... This is something that I always find interesting about people: how they behave when they enter the corridors of power....
It does gay people a lot of damage to see these bitter, hysterical, nasty queens bullying, hectoring, and lecturing ordinary, decent, law-abiding people of faith.... What an awful kind of human being you would have to be to turn your special day... into a cheap political stunt."

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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lilBuddha
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I'm going to kick myself for engaging, but what on earth is your post supposed to mean?

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alogon
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# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I'm going to kick myself for engaging, but what on earth is your post supposed to mean?

My post? I quoted from an eight-minute video to save people the trouble of watching it just for an excerpt, but perhaps that was a mistake.

The point is that a few gay people (not many, I hope), having achieved the legal right to marry, are now using the law to bludgeon other people in unnecessary and trivial confrontations. Milo doesn't approve, and neither do I. It's not only unsportsmanlike, but it gives ammunition to those who have never liked us and make dire predictions about the consequences of giving us a place at the table. We should stop it, for our own sake.

[ 10. November 2015, 05:55: Message edited by: Alogon ]

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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lilBuddha
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Seen and not heard? The whole point is to have equal rights. That includes the right to be boorish, if that is indeed the case.
The problem isn't that some gay people are confrontational, but that there are still things which must be confronted.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
there are still things which must be confronted.

Indeed there are. Happily, by far the majority no longer have anything to do with sexual orientation or marital status. Let's celebrate that and then get busy. While the world becomes crazier by the day, someone wastes energy insisting that a little hole-in-the-wall business bake a cake for them, or take pictures of them, unwillingly? That's just narcissistic.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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lilBuddha
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First, as simply as I can put it.
Legal equality =\= practical equality.

Second, one legal ruling on one aspect of life does not equality make.

Third, one can address multiple inequities and problems.

Narcissistic? Wanting basic respect is not self love.

The bakery cases are not outliers, they are representative of the continued problems. If even the the legally settled issues are so problematic, what hope for the issues yet to be addressed?

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
The point is that a few gay people (not many, I hope), having achieved the legal right to marry, are now using the law to bludgeon other people in unnecessary and trivial confrontations. Milo doesn't approve, and neither do I. It's not only unsportsmanlike, but it gives ammunition to those who have never liked us and make dire predictions about the consequences of giving us a place at the table. We should stop it, for our own sake.

"A place at the table"? Gay people can't even walk in to a bakery and successfully order a cake! I'm not sure being "given" a place at the table really counts if no one is willing to take your order. There's always someone willing to make the case that just this little bit of discrimination is okay, so don't make a big deal if you can't order a cake, or get served at the lunch counter, or get evicted, or lose your job, or whatever other form of discrimination is being passed off as just this one little thing this time around.

CNN ran an interesting segment a few months ago where they determined that five florists in a small Georgia community (and I can't imagine they had that many more than those five) would all refuse to sell flowers to a same-sex couple for their commitment ceremony. (This was pre-Obergefell so Georgia didn't have legal same-sex marriage yet.) At what point does a pervasive discriminatory cartel become a problem that's worth addressing?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
CNN ran an interesting segment a few months ago where they determined that five florists in a small Georgia community (and I can't imagine they had that many more than those five) would all refuse to sell flowers to a same-sex couple for their commitment ceremony. (This was pre-Obergefell so Georgia didn't have legal same-sex marriage yet.) At what point does a pervasive discriminatory cartel become a problem that's worth addressing?

In cases like that, where there is no alternative, then of course we should protest. But in metropolitan areas there are plenty of choices. These bigots will die out if (1) our cause is just; and (2) we don't scare the fence-sitters by picking petty fights.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
CNN ran an interesting segment a few months ago where they determined that five florists in a small Georgia community (and I can't imagine they had that many more than those five) would all refuse to sell flowers to a same-sex couple for their commitment ceremony. (This was pre-Obergefell so Georgia didn't have legal same-sex marriage yet.) At what point does a pervasive discriminatory cartel become a problem that's worth addressing?

In cases like that, where there is no alternative, then of course we should protest. But in metropolitan areas there are plenty of choices. These bigots will die out if (1) our cause is just; and (2) we don't scare the fence-sitters by picking petty fights.
Yeah just like segregation and Jim Crow died out naturally in oooh.. .wait it didn't after a
century and it took protest and legal action.

There's always the few who think they are expert in deciding what amount of discrimination is ok, and protesting it would disturb the fence sitters. Many of them objected to the struggle to get the right to marry because that was too far. None of the rights we have today would be there if there hadn't been a long chain of protests that really upset the fence sitters who thought that the whole topic of homosexuals shouldn't be mentioned.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's always the few who think they are expert in deciding what amount of discrimination is ok, and protesting it would disturb the fence sitters.

To borrow an earlier observation on this phenomenon:

quote:
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."
The problem of those "who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom" [ibid.] is obviously not a new one.

I'm also a lot less sanguine about there being "plenty of choices" in "metropolitan areas". I'd be willing to bet that less than a majority of of the merchants in Hattiesburg, MS (the fourth largest city in that state, population 47,556 in 2013) would be willing to serve homosexuals, if given the option to legally discriminate. I'm also not sure I'd describe the expectation that homosexuals should have to navigate the maze of trying to figure out who will sell them food, or rent them a room, or hire them as being given "a place at the table".

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Pigwidgeon

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# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's always the few who think they are expert in deciding what amount of discrimination is ok...

Still discrimination against gays? I can't imagine what you mean.

Utah judge removes lesbian couple’s foster child, says she’ll be better off with heterosexuals.

[Mad] [Mad] [Mad]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's always the few who think they are expert in deciding what amount of discrimination is ok...

Still discrimination against gays? I can't imagine what you mean.

Utah judge removes lesbian couple’s foster child, says she’ll be better off with heterosexuals.

[Mad] [Mad] [Mad]

I'm sure Alogon will point out that the couple's big mistake was living somewhere like Carbon County, Utah. (Population 21,403, largest city Price, UT.) If they'd lived in a "metropolitan area" they'd have a choice of which judge would hear their case, or something like that. [Roll Eyes]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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I can't believe anyone would think throwing a kid back into the foster system would be prefereable to any reasonable adults taking on adoption. Gay, straight married, unmarried...

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Pigwidgeon

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# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I can't believe anyone would think throwing a kid back into the foster system would be preferable to any reasonable adults taking on adoption. Gay, straight married, unmarried...

Apparently this all ties in with the new LDS edict. This poor child can't be a Mormon in good standing if she lives with same-sex parents.
[Mad]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
In cases like that, where there is no alternative, then of course we should protest. But in metropolitan areas there are plenty of choices.

So, why exactly should we, the customers, be put to the extra effort of finding out which shops we are welcome at and which ones we're not?

Because they don't generally advertise "No Queers". In order to find out that someone isn't going to be okay with my business, I have to go through the humiliating exercise of asking for service and then being told no.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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As a matter of interest Orfeo , have you experienced that sort of discrimination in your shopping here? I've never heard of it - from time to time there have been instances of discrimination at bars and pubs, usually in the country and none of those for a number of years, but I've not heard of it otherwise.

[ 15. November 2015, 23:14: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Net Spinster
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I can't believe anyone would think throwing a kid back into the foster system would be preferable to any reasonable adults taking on adoption. Gay, straight married, unmarried...

Apparently this all ties in with the new LDS edict. This poor child can't be a Mormon in good standing if she lives with same-sex parents.
[Mad]

Fortunately the judge has modified the order and will have another hearing in December; the child will remain with the couple until then. I suspect all the parties concerned have arranged for an immediate appeal if necessary.

In the meantime there was a mass resignation in Salt Lake City on Saturday though most were likely inactive members.

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spinner of webs

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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I heard about that. Inactive or no, it blew my mind.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Net Spinster
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The judge has now removed himself from the adoption case.

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spinner of webs

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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HELL. YES. [Yipee]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35057 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As a matter of interest Orfeo , have you experienced that sort of discrimination in your shopping here? I've never heard of it - from time to time there have been instances of discrimination at bars and pubs, usually in the country and none of those for a number of years, but I've not heard of it otherwise.

Sorry, it's taken days to see this.

No, I haven't, and I would suspect it would be lot less prevalent here because the Australian attitude to religion is rather different. More importantly, though, I've almost never been in a shopping situation that presents me as a member of a couple, and therefore obviously homosexual.

Partly that's just because my love life is pathetic, but even when I've say, gone and met someone for coffee or dinner, you can't readily tell the difference between me meeting a potential boyfriend and 2 straight friends catching up.

I do remember being subconsciously worried when I went down to Melbourne with a guy I was seeing, because I then found myself delighted in the fact that the hotel staff treated us as a perfectly normal couple. So the possibility of being treated badly lingers at the back of my mind even when nothing is actually happening.

It's not a commercial situation, but if I was to point to one area where this affects me the most it's actually the selection of a church. Maybe people don't think of that as "shopping" but it's actually very difficult when you're looking for a church that fits and you have this one, glaring criterion: "must be okay with me being gay". And how do you go about finding out the answer to this question? Only a very small number of churches go out of their way to explicitly advertise that queers are welcome, and then some of them are too generally woolly and touchy-feely for my intellectual mindset. For anyone else, I have to raise the subject and see what kind of reaction I get, because I'm sure as hell past the point where I'm willing to be completely closeted at church so that they'll like me.

[ 20. November 2015, 01:12: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posts: 18143 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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Orfeo, thanks for that. I had not meant to pick you out, or embarrass you, but you are the only person I know of on this board to be able to speak from experience. I do not know where in Canberra you live; we really only know the city,and Manuka/Kingston/Forrest, where I doubt there would be any particular problems - even walking home from a bar late at night. Certainly no more risk than we, as a couple in the full flowering of our maturity, face on our way back from dinner.

I am sorry to admit that I had not thought of church, bearing in mind the old tradition of Goulburn, then Canberra/Goulburn, as being very different to both Sydney on one side and Riverina the other. These days, being gay would not be a problem in virtually all of the Anglican churches in Sydney following the catholic tradition.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6769 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Dennis the Menace
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# 11833

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Orfeo,

For what it's worth. A gay friend of mine was organist at the City Uniting Church in ACT for over 10 years and found they were very accepting of all gay people. My partner and I along with 4 others attended one weekend when C was at the organ and were all welcomed as if we were long lost relies.

At my UC here in Newcastle we are accepted for who we are not what we are. A couple of people in the congregation have gay children, one or two questionable (our gaydar kicking in), some have relatives that are and the minister has a gay son.

The Uniting Church has a policy of unconditional acceptance,

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"Till we cast our crowns before Him; Lost in wonder, love, and praise."

Posts: 838 | From: Newcastle NSW Australia | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
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# 238

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I figured I'd recycle this thread, since the whole "no cakes for gays" thing doesn't seem to be going away.

quote:
It certainly wasn't the text message Candice Lowe was expecting to get on her honeymoon.

She says it came from the owner of Take the Cake Bakery in Toledo, canceling the order for her wife's birthday cake.

Lowe says, "after she saw my Facebook page, she found out that I was in a same-sex marriage and she could not do my cake."

"She did all of their effort to get a cake and gets a text message and has to tell me her surprise, it kind of ruined our day," Amanda Lowe said of her wife.

The couple was just married two weeks ago and are still on cloud nine after celebrating with their son, family and friends. But that all came crashing down. In some ways, they say, it's like taking two steps back.

"It wasn't a wedding cake, it was just a birthday cake," Candice said. "A birthday cake has nothing to do with your sexual preference."

More details available at The Inquisitr. The actual text sent by the baker said:

quote:
Candice, I’m sorry … I just realized your in a same sex relationship and we do not do cakes for same sex weddings or parties … I’m so sorry. I wasn’t aware of this exactly until I saw your page …
Ellipses in the original.

The state of Ohio does not have any laws preventing discrimination based on sexual orientation, but the city of Toledo (where Take the Cake is located) does.

So if the objection to wedding cakes is that certain bakers don't think same sex couples should be married, is the position here that gay people shouldn't be born? Is there any reason for the former to be a valid legal argument but not the latter?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10484 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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Anyone but me think it's really creepy that the baker investigated the client's facebook page before baking her a cake? WTF?

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11681 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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This kind of gives the lie to the argument that by baking a wedding cake you're "participating in" a sinful thing, i.e. a wedding. A birthday party isn't a sinful thing.

This is just plain old discrimination with no excuses whatsoever, good or bad, to hide behind.

Call it apartheid, call it jim crow -- if the state doesn't strike this down it is taking part in wholesale discrimination against a whole group of people based on their membership in the group.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63199 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Yeah, I would love to see the chapter and verse in the OT (it would be the OT) that forbids bakers to bake birthday cakes for sinners.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Anyone but me think it's really creepy that the baker investigated the client's facebook page before baking her a cake? WTF?

To be fair, she may do that with other clients just to get inspiration for "Easter eggs" in her cake designs. But she's still out of line in her decision to cancel the order because of info she found.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21308 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Yeah, I would love to see the chapter and verse in the OT (it would be the OT) that forbids bakers to bake birthday cakes for sinners.

Not all sinners, just ones with sins that it's particularly stylish to hate right now among the sin-hating cognoscenti.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Net Spinster
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# 16058

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I wonder if this is breach of contract; it is not as though they refused before accepting the order. I'm not a lawyer but had the necessary conditions been met to make this a contract? If they had, finding out that your customer wanted the cake for their same-sex spouse is not, as far as I know, good grounds for breaking the contract.

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spinner of webs

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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Candice, I’m sorry … I just realized your in a same sex relationship and we do not do cakes for same sex weddings or parties … I’m so sorry. I wasn’t aware of this exactly until I saw your page …
Ellipses in the original....
And italics mine.

Regardless of how the baker feels about marriage equality, saying you won't do "same sex parties" is pretty clearly "we don't serve your kind here."

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
I wonder if this is breach of contract; it is not as though they refused before accepting the order. I'm not a lawyer but had the necessary conditions been met to make this a contract? If they had, finding out that your customer wanted the cake for their same-sex spouse is not, as far as I know, good grounds for breaking the contract.

And what would the damages be for breach of contract, pure and simple? Any extra cost involved in having a similar cake made and decorated by someone else. Damages for a breach of any anti-discrimination legislation would be another matter, but probably not much.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Candice, I’m sorry … I just realized your in a same sex relationship and we do not do cakes for same sex weddings or parties … I’m so sorry. I wasn’t aware of this exactly until I saw your page …
Ellipses in the original....
And italics mine.

Regardless of how the baker feels about marriage equality, saying you won't do "same sex parties" is pretty clearly "we don't serve your kind here."

What is a 'same sex party'? A masonic dinner (all male)? A WI tea and jam session (all female)? A hen night?

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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place

Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015  |  IP: Logged
Net Spinster
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# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
And what would the damages be for breach of contract, pure and simple? Any extra cost involved in having a similar cake made and decorated by someone else. Damages for a breach of any anti-discrimination legislation would be another matter, but probably not much.

Some punitive damages above that are likely. It seems this particular locale may not have appropriate anti-discrimination legislation so one might not be able to sue under that. However depending on the locale a sizable number of people (gay or otherwise) might not be willing to give business to a bakery that is openly anti-same sex couples.

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spinner of webs

Posts: 1084 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Some punitive damages above that are likely. It seems this particular locale may not have appropriate anti-discrimination legislation so one might not be able to sue under that.

As noted previously although the state of Ohio has no such laws, the city of Toledo (where the baker is based) actually does have anti-discrimination laws on its books that cover sexual orientation.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10484 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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