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Source: (consider it) Thread: How could the Pro-life movement have wider appeal?
lilBuddha
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I suggest you are seeing what you wish to see.
Regarding pregnant women specifically, i said; often.

often
adv.
1. frequently; many times
It only means most or more often than not when so stated.
Why should I paint women with any different a brush than I paint men?
The only group I can think of which has any cause to claim I paint them with a specifically broad brush it is white males.
And then only if they do not read the entirety of what I write.
You want it simply put? Pregnant women, as a group, are as intelligent as any other group. As educated as any other group. Are as self aware as any other group. No less, no more.
And to go further in discussing her statement that

quote:
the only real question is: can a woman who wants an abortion have a safe, legal* abortion?
That isn't the only question. The others are about education, prevention and support.

Several broad strokes painted in the statement I challenged, yet you only challenge mine.
Why?

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mousethief

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Because yours is in keeping with a long line of treating women as less than wholly competent moral agents.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Because yours is in keeping with a long line of treating women as less than wholly competent moral agents.

Rubbish. I treat people, as a group, as less than wholly competent. Never women as less than any other group.
You've either ignored my posts on this subject, indeed most of the very post that this exchange originated from, or your response is reactionary quote mining. Something I know, from reading your interactions here, that you appear to dislike.
Isolating one statement from the body of posts is almost as egregious as quote mining. You appear to have accomplished both. Continue if you wish, I'm done.

[ 17. January 2016, 22:09: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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mousethief

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So if women are not competent to make this decision, who is? You can't say "people in general aren't competent to make this decision" because somebody, some PERSON or GROUP, has to make the decision. This is the question to be answered here. Not your general misanthropy. This specific question: who will decide if a pregnant woman will or will not have an abortion?

This entire dreary exchange arose in response to your response to Soror Magna, the context of which was her statement (and I quote directly), "Whether an abortion happens or not is going to be somebody's decision; who or what should be making those decisions?" She then added:

quote:
It is insulting to suggest that women don't know that fetuses have value or haven't thought about it or don't know what happens in an abortion. Women who have children have beliefs about abortion. Women who have never been pregnant have beliefs about abortion. Men who can't get pregnant have beliefs about abortion. And yet, as soon as a woman is pregnant, somebody else has to do their thinking and make decisions for them because the poor dears have no idea how precious a fetus is.
You then quoted just the first sentence, ignoring the rest of the paragraph which gave it context. Physician, heal thyself! Thence proceeding to insult women in particular, not all humankind as you insist was your intent, but not answering the question and missing the point that Soror Magna's claim of insultingness was SPECIFICALLY aimed at people who deny the ability of women to make this decision for themselves and insist that others make it for them. THAT is the context in which she found it insulting to denigrate women's competency. You seem to have missed that.

So is your average woman competent to make this decision for herself, or should she have that decision made for her by somebody else? THAT is the question.

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Macrina
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
... I can't get on board with a group that says abortion should be available for all women all the time no hindrances because it's her body and her choice (as I believe that a foetus must have some worth and value of its own) so pro choice as it is commonly espoused is out for me. ...

That's nice. If you think a foetus has worth and value, what do you expect the state to do about it? Whether an abortion happens or not is going to be somebody's decision; who or what should be making those decisions? In Canada, we used to have hospital abortion committees that decided these things, so whether or not a woman could get an abortion depended on the opinions / beliefs / desires / whims of the local hospital adminstrators. Needless to say, access to abortion - and by inference, the worth and value of the fetuses - varied widely across the country.

It is insulting to suggest that women don't know that fetuses have value or haven't thought about it or don't know what happens in an abortion. Women who have children have beliefs about abortion. Women who have never been pregnant have beliefs about abortion. Men who can't get pregnant have beliefs about abortion. And yet, as soon as a woman is pregnant, somebody else has to do their thinking and make decisions for them because the poor dears have no idea how precious a fetus is.

Really?

I think you missed what I was saying. I was explaining MY reasons for not feeling comfortable with (some) pro choice arguments, not that those arguments or the ability to choose an abortion is always wrong. I feel perfectly at ease stating my position that I am not comfortable with the full implications of 'my body my choice' as it is MY belief that the foetus is a body with rights too. I don't think its fair to draw out from that statement that I think anyone who disagrees with me is stupid or evil. It's a very complicated moral question and has no easy answers. I said quite clearly that sometimes pregnancies are not going to end well for a variety of reasons and therefore understand the necessity for the availability of legal abortion is an important thing.

What I'd expect the state to do about it is to ensure that women DO have freedom of choice; that they are not prevented from accessing abortion due to someone else's beliefs (mine or anyone else's) about abortion and also that they are not forced into ending a pregnancy they would wish to keep if they were able to access adequate support both during and post pregnancy for themselves and their child.

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
the only real question is: can a woman who wants an abortion have a safe, legal* abortion?
That isn't the only question. The others are about education, prevention and support.
...

So? The answer to the first question is independent of the next three, UNLESS whether a woman can have a safe, legal abortion depends upon some combination or lack of education, prevention and support, individual or social. Care to expand upon that?

I'm not unsympathetic to e.g. Macrina's discomfort with an extreme pro-choice position. However, other than a medical doctor, I don't see anybody other than the woman herself who is more competent to make that decision or who personally has more at stake.

If I may tack back to the original topic, one way the pro-life movement would have more appeal and more success would be by not resorting to laws that restrict or deny women's competency and independence, endanger women's health, and especially punish poor women. When someone makes a seemingly bad choice, there's a strong possibility that they are choosing a bad option from an array of crappy options. It should be obvious to anyone with a pulse what societies can do to reduce the number of abortions. The pro-life movement and their political allies oppose all of it, except for the small number among them that actually support mothers directly.

The day the pro-life movement calls for sex education, pre-natal care, living wages, paid maternity leaves, and flexible, affordable daycare will be the day they finally live up to their name. Until then, they're nothing but a bunch of slut-shaming busybodies occasionally spitting out a terrorist.


ETA: Took me so long to write we cross-posted, but it looks like we ended up in the same place

[ 18. January 2016, 00:41: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

I'm not unsympathetic to e.g. Macrina's discomfort with an extreme pro-choice position. However, other than a medical doctor, I don't see anybody other than the woman herself who is more competent to make that decision or who personally has more at stake.

The only reason a doctor's opinion might be relevant at all is if there's something unusual about the pregnancy that endangers the mother. The British fudge of having doctors sign off on elective abortions because they carry less medical risk than a full-term pregnancy is absurd (does that still happen?) In the normal case, I don't really see that a medical doctor more competent than anyone else at making decisions. My plumber is competent to install a new shower in my house, but his opinion isn't any more relevant than anyone else's if I'm deciding whether I want a new shower.
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Brenda Clough
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Add birth control in there. A no-brainer. If everyone had full access to birth control, abortion rates would drop.

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Soror Magna
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A doctor's opinion would be relevant in a situation where an abortion is contraindicated or more dangerous than carrying to term. I honestly can't come up with an example, but anything can and does happen.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
So? The answer to the first question is independent of the next three, UNLESS whether a woman can have a safe, legal abortion depends upon some combination or lack of education, prevention and support, individual or social. Care to expand upon that?

I'm adding no qualifiers to the abortion should be legal and the woman's decision. No checks and no questions. Clear enough?
I've said this enough times here that this challenge is getting a bit ridiculous.

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
However, other than a medical doctor, I don't see anybody other than the woman herself who is more competent to make that decision or who personally has more at stake.

I've no qualms with this statement. What I am saying is that if women were treated as they should be, fewer would make the decisions that lead to needing to make this decision.
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

The day the pro-life movement calls for sex education, pre-natal care, living wages, paid maternity leaves, and flexible, affordable daycare will be the day they finally live up to their name. Until then, they're nothing but a bunch of slut-shaming busybodies occasionally spitting out a terrorist.

this is part of the problem. The bloody rhetoric that closes minds and alienates people. There isn't just one side or the other, there is a solid middle. One that truly believe each and every part of abortion should Safe, Legal, and Rare.
We aren't pro-life or pro-choice, we are pro-life and pro-choice.

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Louise
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hosting

LilBuddha, if you're losing your patience with people, that's better to be posted in Hell to avoid conflicts becoming personal here.
thanks!
L

Dead horses Host

hosting off

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L'organist
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I'm sure its been said before but, to answer Macrina's original question "How could the Pro-life movement have wider appeal" the answer has to be this:

By being interested in all life of all ages. At the moment the "Pro-life" movement limits itself to the putative life of zygotes, blastocysts, embryos, foetuses and pre-borns up to the end of Labour; any competing or over-riding claims to life by the carrier (mother) are disregarded.

Pro-lifers who wish to be more popular should raise there heads from the uterus and look at whole, complete, autonomous people - especially women.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There isn't just one side or the other, there is a solid middle. One that truly believe each and every part of abortion should Safe, Legal, and Rare.
We aren't pro-life or pro-choice, we are pro-life and pro-choice.

I agree. In fact most people I know stand exactly in that solid middle.

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Soror Magna
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Individuals can waver, can be conflicted, can be in the middle, but public policy cannot. In this debate, ISTM the middle is a very difficult place to make policy or law from. Just as one cannot be a little bit pregnant or have a smidgen of an abortion, either women have a choice or they don't. In the USA, it seems like even though there are a lot of people in the middle, the extreme pro-life* side is gaining ground.

*offer expires at birth

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Just as one cannot be a little bit pregnant or have a smidgen of an abortion, either women have a choice or they don't.

Abortion on demand up to a particular gestational age, and no abortion afterwards is widely considered to be middle ground between the pro-life and unrestricted pro-choice positions.
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Net Spinster
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Just as one cannot be a little bit pregnant or have a smidgen of an abortion, either women have a choice or they don't.

Abortion on demand up to a particular gestational age, and no abortion afterwards is widely considered to be middle ground between the pro-life and unrestricted pro-choice positions.
Even to save the mother's life? Most late term abortions are due to health reasons either the mother's or because the fetus is doomed anyway.

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Soror Magna
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Good grief.

Pro-lifers shut down elementary school

The school alleges they're being deliberately targeted so they can be used as a proxy against Planned Parenthood:
quote:
The lawsuit describes the protests as a form of coercion, intended to draft parents and administrators into a campaign to block the clinic from opening next door. The antiabortion activists “have promised they will ‘be back every week’ if the students and parents do not take action against the Planned Parenthood health center,” the complaint alleges. Protesters have shouted at children to “Tell your parents they kill kids next door.” In November, an activist named Jonathan Darnel sent an e-mail to school administrators that read, “I am not threatening you. Nevertheless, if you are failing to challenge Planned Parenthood, I feel a moral obligation to alert the community (including the parents of your students) myself…. I’m sure you don’t want to see me, my antiabortion friends and our graphic images any more than we want to be in your neighborhood.”
And it's garnished with a bit of expires-at-birth :

quote:
Defendant Larry Cirignano was at the protest on Thursday, wearing a banana-yellow tie stamped with the words “choose life.” I asked him if he was at all concerned for students who were disturbed by the images and messages he and other demonstrators present to them. “I’m worried more about the kids who are in the pictures,” he responded.
[brick wall]

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LeRoc

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quote:
Quoted by Soror Magna: Defendant Larry Cirignano was at the protest on Thursday, wearing a banana-yellow tie stamped with the words “choose life.”
I can't hear this without thinking about Trainspotting.

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Penny S
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Don't they have jobs to be in during school time?

This was instead of using unFriendly language. Definitely not answering that of God in him.

[ 22. January 2016, 20:12: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Even to save the mother's life? Most late term abortions are due to health reasons either the mother's or because the fetus is doomed anyway.

A fair few are due to non-fatal foetal abnormalities such as Down's. I find that morally objectionable but I'm not sure it should be illegal.
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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Even to save the mother's life? Most late term abortions are due to health reasons either the mother's or because the fetus is doomed anyway.

A fair few are due to non-fatal foetal abnormalities such as Down's. I find that morally objectionable but I'm not sure it should be illegal.
Aren't diagnostics for Down's syndrome usually performed in the first or second trimesters, putting most abortions for that reason outside the category of "late term"?

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Soror Magna
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This is better than irony. This is goldy, silvery and bronzy:

quote:
... According to a statement from Harris County District Attorney Devon Anderson, the 232nd Grand Jury extensively reviewed the joint investigation into allegations of misconduct by Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast for more than two months and cleared the organization of breaking the law. However, the grand jury did hand up indictments for two individuals who were involved in making the allegations against Planned Parenthood using covert recordings. ...
Grand Jury Indicts 2 Behind Undercover Planned Parenthood Videos

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Brenda Clough
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I hope they spend time in jail. (Fines can be paid by other parties, but jail time has to be done by you.)

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lilBuddha
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The sad thing is that the damage they've done will not be completely undone by this revelation.

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Brenda Clough
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Another answer to the OP's question:
fake clinic

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Another answer to the OP's question:
fake clinic

Or even worse, real hospital:

quote:
The report, by a former Muskegon County health official, Faith Groesbeck, accuses Mercy Health Partners of forcing five women between August 2009 and December 2010 to undergo dangerous miscarriages by giving them no other option.

All five women, the report says, had symptoms indicating that it would be safest for them to deliver immediately. But instead of informing the women of their options, the report says, or offering to transfer them to a different hospital, doctors – apparently out of deference to the Mercy Health Partners’ strict ban on abortion – unilaterally decided to subject the women to prolonged miscarriages.

As a result, the report claims, several of the women suffered infection or emotional trauma, or had to undergo unnecessary surgery. None of the women were pregnant beyond 24 weeks, when an infant can survive outside the womb.

It's getting pretty hard to rule out "general contempt or disinterest in women's well being" as a common factor in pro-life* thinking.


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*Offer very clearly expires at birth.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Soror Magna
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It's as if they've taken God's "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children" and decided it's up to them to make not giving birth even worse. [Mad] And it's not like these women wanted to have abortions - they were miscarrying already.

In what universe is it a moral imperative to make them suffer as long as possible? How is it "pro-life" to believe that a dying fetus' last minutes / hours / days are more sacred than the lives and health of these women? And of course, they lied to them, as it's well established that lying is absolutely the right thing to do if one is doing it "pro-life".

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
In what universe is it a moral imperative to make them suffer as long as possible? How is it "pro-life" to believe that a dying fetus' last minutes / hours / days are more sacred than the lives and health of these women?

It's part of what Macrina discussed about "a foetus must have some worth and value of its own". The practical application is not just ascribing value, but typically much greater value to a fœtus than to the woman in which it resides. After that, the moral calculus becomes simple.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Penny S
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The unborn foetus is like Schroedinger's cat until it is born and its state collapses into either a valuable male in the image of God or a female derived from the male's rib and inheritor of Eve's sin, and thus of lesser value.*

So even a child, where the sin was that of a man, must be compelled to bear a baby in a body not developed enough to do so safely, because she is not as much in God's image as a man is, and can become valuable only in the bearing of the next generation.

That's what it looks like. And it's bonkers.

*This, of course, ignores the existence of scans.

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North East Quine

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Regarding the report quoted by Croesus

quote:
All five women, the report says, had symptoms indicating that it would be safest for them to deliver immediately. But instead of informing the women of their options, the report says, or offering to transfer them to a different hospital, doctors – apparently out of deference to the Mercy Health Partners’ strict ban on abortion – unilaterally decided to subject the women to prolonged miscarriages.

As a result, the report claims, several of the women suffered infection or emotional trauma, or had to undergo unnecessary surgery. None of the women were pregnant beyond 24 weeks, when an infant can survive outside the womb.

I have a question for American Shipmates - who meets the cost of the additional medical care? Is this covered by insurance?

I have practical experience of this. In 1998 I miscarried at 12 weeks (a planned and wanted baby we named C.) I haemorrhaged, went into shock through blood loss, had an emergency ERPOC (like a D&C, only more) under general anasthetic at 1.30am, I was on oxygen, a drip and had a blood transfusion. I had multiple doctors round my bedside.

I spent longer in hospital than I did with all three full term births combined.

In 2002, I miscarried again, at 11 weeks, again a planned and wanted baby. I was bleeding heavily and my blood pressure was dropping. The doctor said there was no time to waste on a scan. I asked if my baby might still be alive and he said that the question should be framed not as "Is my baby dead or alive?" but as "Is my baby dead or still dying?" I was given drugs to speed the process, so avoided the general anaesthetic, the surgery and the transfusion, though I still had the oxygen and drip.

So yes, I accepted the drugs that brought my baby's life to a swifter end than might otherwise have happened, by minutes, or maybe hours, perhaps a day. An option that wasn't given to those five women.

I was on the NHS, so no costs. But how does it work in America? If a woman is forced to go through a longer miscarriage, general anaesthetic, consultant-level care, surgery, blood transfusions, extra days in hospital, more follow-up care, all to protect the baby's last few hours, who picks up the bill? Insurance companies?

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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# 8520

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I can't answer the question and this isn't all saints... but good grief what a terrible experience to go through. Really sorry to hear about it.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Thanks, mdijon, that's very kind. I can't praise the maternity hospital staff enough for both their professionalism and caring. I'm horrified to think that elsewhere medical staff would deliberately choose a course of treatment which was worse for the mother, in order to let a foetus die naturally.
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Eventually, it is all Americans who pick up the tab. If the women were on Medicare or Medicaid, then directly, from the federal government. If they were on private health insurance (this seems to have taken place before Obamacare) then we paid for it in higher health care premiums. The stupidity of these laws is something we all pay for.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Luke

Soli Deo Gloria
# 306

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

I'm not unsympathetic to e.g. Macrina's discomfort with an extreme pro-choice position. However, other than a medical doctor, I don't see anybody other than the woman herself who is more competent to make that decision or who personally has more at stake.

The only reason a doctor's opinion might be relevant at all is if there's something unusual about the pregnancy that endangers the mother. The British fudge of having doctors sign off on elective abortions because they carry less medical risk than a full-term pregnancy is absurd (does that still happen?) In the normal case, I don't really see that a medical doctor more competent than anyone else at making decisions. My plumber is competent to install a new shower in my house, but his opinion isn't any more relevant than anyone else's if I'm deciding whether I want a new shower.
Very true, it smacks of Gnosticism to outsource important decisions.

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Emily's Voice

Posts: 822 | From: Australia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Back to the question raised in the OP - perhaps "not pulling stunts like http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35969816 "

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Jemima the 9th
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# 15106

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Well, aren't Precious Life a lovely bunch of people? From their website:
quote:
By exposing the lies surrounding abortion; by educating the public with the truth about abortion; and by campaigning against abortion - we are saving babies, mothers, and indeed this country, from the silent holocaust that is brutally destroying 50 million lives worldwide every year.
From the BBC story, I found the behaviour of the woman's housemates odd. Ghoulish even. They found blood stained items and a male foetus in the bin. They were poking about in the bin? And they could see that a 10-12 week foetus was male?

<look away now if squeamish>
I had a miscarriage at around 8 1/2 - 9 weeks. I can tell you that there was (to use a technical term) a metric fuckton of blood. However, I happened to catch the remains, and it was not recognisably human, never mind male or female. Clearly a great deal of development happens between 8-12 weeks, but I am amazed that they a) looked for and b) found that level of detail.

[ 07. April 2016, 10:31: Message edited by: Jemima the 9th ]

Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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It's not just talk. It's life and death. Increase of women's deaths in Republican states

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I hadn't thought it through with Jemima's level of analysis. Surely at that stage the genitialia are not differentiated? The gonads would be internal, and whatever was visible between the legs would be something that could become either a penis or a clitoris. This story becomes odder. And hadn't there been a week between the deed and the discovery?

The woman Bernadette whatshername was on the radio this morning, and very insistent that there should be consistency in the obedience to the laws of the UK. It was a matter of law, she repeated. And did not accept that in this mnatter there is anything but consistency in the UK.

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Jemima the 9th
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# 15106

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More info from the Belfast Telegraph http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/why-we-reported-abortion-pills-girl-to-northern-ireland-police-346028 57.html
Not a paper I know anything about, I saw the story via ThePool, who unsurprisingly, take a rather different angle...
https://www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2016/14/when-a-country-bans-abortion-it-creates-horror-stories

[ 07. April 2016, 21:38: Message edited by: Jemima the 9th ]

Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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# 14768

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The women in the Telegraph do not seem so nasty as they are described in the Pool, do they? Certainly not vindictive, but conflicted.

Bernadette the activist, on the other hand, was fiercely unpleasant.

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Crœsos
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# 238

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And there's always stuff like this:

quote:
NAF has compiled statistics on incidents of violence and disruption against abortion providers for almost 40 years, according to a press release the organization issued Tuesday.

The statistics for 2015 “reflect a dramatic increase in hate speech and internet harassment, death threats, attempted murder, and murder, which coincided with the release of heavily-edited, misleading, and inflammatory videos beginning in July.”

Since 1977, there have been 11 murders, 26 attempted murders, 42 bombings, 185 arsons, and thousands more incidents of criminal behavior directed at abortion providers, according to NAF’s press release.

Maybe less terrorism might widen the pro-life* movement's appeal?


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*Offer expires at birth.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Clearly the definition of 'life' is quite loose, if you are able to murder people.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Crœsos
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# 238

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Hence my traditional footnote.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
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# 28

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If the "Pro-life" movement as a movement , not as occasional individuals, but on an organizational level, would show any interest at all in preserving or bettering the life of children above the age of a fetus in any way at all, it would go a long way towards making the movement palatable.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
If the "Pro-life" movement as a movement , not as occasional individuals, but on an organizational level, would show any interest at all in preserving or bettering the life of children above the age of a fetus in any way at all, it would go a long way towards making the movement palatable.

Good luck with that.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
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# 28

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Well I didn't say it was likely, I was just answering the question in the OP.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
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# 331

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Penny S:
quote:
Surely at that stage the genitialia are not differentiated? The gonads would be internal, and whatever was visible between the legs would be something that could become either a penis or a clitoris.
People see what they expect to see. But it's quite interesting that they thought the sex of the foetus was relevant. Evidently, some unborn babies are more equal than others.

quote:
Bernadette the activist, on the other hand, was fiercely unpleasant.
Doesn't mean she was wrong, though.

[ 13. April 2016, 08:43: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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# 14768

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Doesn't make her right, either.

She wants to extend her version of sharia to everywhere, and, with no surprise, like all of those sorts of rule based ways of organising societies, adult women go down to the bottom of the heap.

I don't understand this. It happens everywhere. As if all societies have, at some time, fallen under the spell of men who use coercive control techniques to run not only their own family life, but everyone else's as well. And then men who might be like them but haven't thought of it go along with it, and men who aren't like that don't know who it is safe to talk to, and women have to lie back and think of whatever their culture says they should think of.

All we like sheep have gone astray.

The anti-abortion issue is really useful for the women in their proper place brigade, because it is much easier to convert people to thinking it is murdering little babies and is wrong than to convert people to think that beating wives is OK. While maintaining the right to kill people who disagree.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Yes, I always think that killing babies is a very useful displacement from controlling women's bodies. That is not a great slogan really, yet that's what it involves. Hence the recent popularity, I guess, of the bodily autonomy argument for abortion.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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It also ties directly into the women-less-than-human thought process. Clearly the poor little dears cannot realize what they are doing. Let us mandate a waiting period, transvaginal probes, viewings of sonograms, etc., so that their dim little intellects may be lightened somewhat. Ooh, that wasn't effective, damn. Time to get tough. They are clearly too stupid to know what they are doing.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged



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