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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hostility to Traditional Christians on the Ship
ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why not? And how is postmodernism unenlightenedly all about me in the first place?

Postmodernism rejects metanarratives (big stories) and propositional truth. It focuses on the individuals story to the extent that the worldview is based on that story and not part of a community hegemony.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If it's all about me, then it can't be about God.

Why can't it be all about God as I interact with Him in my experience? This is all I know about God, but within the confines of my own skin, it's all about HIM not ME.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Postmodernism rejects metanarratives (big stories) and propositional truth. It focuses on the individuals story to the extent that the worldview is based on that story and not part of a community hegemony.

I don't think this is really very fair - either your definition of post-modernism is wrong or it is correct and nobody really believes it.

Most people do not reject metanarratives, most people accept that there are very strong metanarratives and that people exist "out there" who are not believing or living within the metanarrative that I'm comfortable in.

I think this idea that post-modernism rejects propositional truth is a bit of a red herring. There are very few people who think that propositional truths are by their very nature fake.

I think the majority of people are unsure about things and try to weigh what they're told. If unconvinced by something, they're most likely to just leave it and think "well I don't really understand it but it seems to do some good for that other person, therefore it doesn't seem like something for me to stick my oar in and make a big deal about trying to get them to change their minds".

That's not really saying that all metanarratives are the same and that there are no propositional truths; it is more saying that the truths offered by institutional religion don't seem to be answering the questions that I'm having and whilst I can accept that this belief has meaning for you, it doesn't have any meaning for me.

It has created space for people to bypass the boring questions of whether x idea offered by religion A is true in contrast to y idea offered by religion B and instead focus on whether I happen to like the sound of it. It is much more like a shopping centre of ideas where there are shops that I'm not interested in but am happy that they exist for people who are.

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arse

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Postmodernism rejects metanarratives (big stories) and propositional truth. It focuses on the individuals story to the extent that the worldview is based on that story and not part of a community hegemony.

I don't think this is really very fair - either your definition of post-modernism is wrong or it is correct and nobody really believes it.
It's pretty darn close to the definition in Wikipedia.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's pretty darn close to the definition in Wikipedia.

I rather like the quote, attributed to Chomsky, "Postmodernism? I don't know what it is but I suspect it is a device created by academics to keep themselves employed."

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arse

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why not? And how is postmodernism unenlightenedly all about me in the first place?

Postmodernism rejects metanarratives (big stories) and propositional truth. It focuses on the individuals story to the extent that the worldview is based on that story and not part of a community hegemony.
What is 'propositional truth'? As opposed to truth? And how is your story unenlightened?

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Considering that our known population of UK Muslims here is pretty close to zero, I'm not sure what you were expecting.

Our known population of Trump supporters is even lower but they still provoke plenty of outrage. I'd suggest...
  • Many on the left don't want to criticise Islam because this could support anti-immigration arguments and/or racists. (Understandable enough.)
  • Some on the left still do, but they are now outcast as racists.
  • The ones who don't have a strong view either way (like me) just keep their heads down.
  • Anti-gay Christians are an out-group to Shipmates, especially Shipmates who have experienced their prejudice first-hand.
So an Irish baker causes endless rage by not baking a cake, while over a million British Muslims actually want to return to the days of Alan Turing and it barely raises a murmur.

The relevance to this thread is that I believe ten years ago this discrepancy might have been debated openly; now it feels taboo to even mention it.

I don't see why it couldn't be discussed openly now, though I'm not sure why you think the Muslim angle is particularly critical. I'll bet there are a lot more than a million non-Muslim Britons who share those views, and you could probably find lots of ways of grouping people that would indicate correlations with religion or other social indicators. (I suspect ultra-orthodox Jews, for example, probably aren't too liberal in this area. Probably plenty of Christian churches in the US, too, for that matter.)

In a pluralistic society you'll always have to figure out how to live together with people of differing views, and just what allowances should be made for those holding minority views. I think you could have a useful discussion on this topic.

A good rally I thought. I'd love Deobandi Hanafi Sunni in particular to join us here. But there's no point discussing Islamic homophobia until we've put our own house in order; dealt with the intellectually inadequate extrapolation to divine condemnation of four love LGBT+ pair(+) bonding from Paul's rants at Roman phallus power abuse.

--------------------
Love wins

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's pretty darn close to the definition in Wikipedia.

I rather like the quote, attributed to Chomsky, "Postmodernism? I don't know what it is but I suspect it is a device created by academics to keep themselves employed."
Well, Chomsky would certainly know about that and career creating as well.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why not? And how is postmodernism unenlightenedly all about me in the first place?

Postmodernism rejects metanarratives (big stories) and propositional truth. It focuses on the individuals story to the extent that the worldview is based on that story and not part of a community hegemony.
What is 'propositional truth'? As opposed to truth? And how is your story unenlightened?
Er you used enlightened not me.

Propositional truth suggests that there is right and wrong which is recognised in a community and is not simply the view of an individual or sub group.

Truth is postmodern terms is usually seen as "what is right from the place I see it". There's little or no reference to a communal understanding.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Postmodernism rejects metanarratives (big stories) and propositional truth. It focuses on the individuals story to the extent that the worldview is based on that story and not part of a community hegemony.

I don't think this is really very fair - either your definition of post-modernism is wrong or it is correct and nobody really believes it.

Most people do not reject metanarratives, most people accept that there are very strong metanarratives and that people exist "out there" who are not believing or living within the metanarrative that I'm comfortable in.

I think this idea that post-modernism rejects propositional truth is a bit of a red herring. There are very few people who think that propositional truths are by their very nature fake.

I think the majority of people are unsure about things and try to weigh what they're told. If unconvinced by something, they're most likely to just leave it and think "well I don't really understand it but it seems to do some good for that other person, therefore it doesn't seem like something for me to stick my oar in and make a big deal about trying to get them to change their minds".

That's not really saying that all metanarratives are the same and that there are no propositional truths; it is more saying that the truths offered by institutional religion don't seem to be answering the questions that I'm having and whilst I can accept that this belief has meaning for you, it doesn't have any meaning for me.

It has created space for people to bypass the boring questions of whether x idea offered by religion A is true in contrast to y idea offered by religion B and instead focus on whether I happen to like the sound of it. It is much more like a shopping centre of ideas where there are shops that I'm not interested in but am happy that they exist for people who are.

I agree. Most people won't reject a metanarrative provided it doesn't conflict with their own views/approach. When the community story and mine conflict, there will only be one winner for most people: mine.

It's a bit like the Eddy and the Hot Rods song "Do anything you wanna do"

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If it's all about me, then it can't be about God.

Why can't it be all about God as I interact with Him in my experience? This is all I know about God, but within the confines of my own skin, it's all about HIM not ME.
I agree with you here. Faith is personal, not private. It has to be worked out for ourselves but within a community ("church"). Trouble is a lot of people miss the second but especially where community values, teachings or norms conflict with their own.

It's not a triumph of community over personal experience either. Our experiences may be unique to us and affect us uniquely but they are rarely one offs -- community helps us ground and process experiences in the light of others' own journeys.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why not? And how is postmodernism unenlightenedly all about me in the first place?

Postmodernism rejects metanarratives (big stories) and propositional truth. It focuses on the individuals story to the extent that the worldview is based on that story and not part of a community hegemony.
What is 'propositional truth'? As opposed to truth? And how is your story unenlightened?
Er you used enlightened not me.

Propositional truth suggests that there is right and wrong which is recognised in a community and is not simply the view of an individual or sub group.

Truth is postmodern terms is usually seen as "what is right from the place I see it". There's little or no reference to a communal understanding.

I used unenlightened. Where and how does propositional truth, whatever that is, suggest that? What has community got to do with truth? 99.9% of all known germs believe in global warming? That sort of thing?

If 99.9% of Christians believe that God hates fags, they're wrong.

--------------------
Love wins

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If 99.9% of Christians believe that God hates fags, they're wrong.

That's propositional truth: you can't be a postmodernist Martin!
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If 99.9% of Christians believe that God hates fags, they're wrong.

That's propositional truth: you can't be a postmodernist Martin!
Believing in propositional truth is postmodern? It were well to know what words mean before using them.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Martin60
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I can't find any reference to propositional truth per se. To truth in the form of a proposition. It seems tautological. Is all truth propositional? A subset of propositions (whatever they are ...), the others being false, unknown, true and false; superpositioned, null, indeterminate, meaning{ful/less} ...? Truth or falsity can only be expressed propositionally? As statements.

Right and wrong. Morally. Yeah. I'm sure postmodernism is morally neutral. So yeah, homophobia isn't postmodern.

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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Hmmm. Of course postmodernism isn't morally neutral, it seeks truth, which is good.

--------------------
Love wins

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Hmmm. Of course postmodernism isn't morally neutral, it seeks truth, which is good.

Truth in the sense that it is truth from my POV. Others' mileage will vary.
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Martin60
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Nope, postmodernism is truer. Objectively.

--------------------
Love wins

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ExclamationMark
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Martin60:
Nope, postmodernism is truer. Objectively. [QUOTE] Martin, you can make "postmodern" mean whatever you want it to mean - so can I. t's incapable then of being able to define anything

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nope, postmodernism is truer. Objectively.

[Killing me]
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Martin60
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No you can't.

--------------------
Love wins

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Lamb Chopped
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Is this the point where we all start saying

"Yes, we can."
"No, you can't"
"Yes, we can!"
and so on until Mother calls us home for dinner?

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Is this the point where we all start saying

"Yes, we can."
"No, you can't"
"Yes, we can!"
and so on until Mother calls us home for dinner?

Absolutely. Just goes to prove my assertion - no absolute truth in postmodernism!
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Martin60
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OK. Are ANY religious traditions, narratives, structures true? Any? Do any, does any claim any mandate, trump the higher animal perception of fairness?

Or is it all Dada? Is philosophy art?

--------------------
Love wins

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Martin60
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And are there objective measurements that can be made to compare semiotic truth claims?

--------------------
Love wins

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Is this the point where we all start saying

"Yes, we can."
"No, you can't"
"Yes, we can!"
and so on until Mother calls us home for dinner?

And how, in Postmodernism, would you be able to reach a mutual understanding of any objective truth in the terms "Mother" and "dinner"?

[ 14. August 2017, 08:14: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Lamb Chopped
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[gropes toward meaning]

There was a post. Yes, I'm sure of it.

But what did it say?

Is saying... a Thing?

Can we communicate?

And who do I mean by We?

I... I? Bye.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And how, in Postmodernism, would you be able to reach a mutual understanding of any objective truth in the terms "Mother" and "dinner"?

Do you NEED an objective truth in the terms "Mother" and "dinner" when a simple demonstrative will suffice? I think people make Postmodernism far more difficult than it really is.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Baptist Trainfan
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Well, it was a bit of a leg-pull. But there is a serious point in that we can only talk meaningfully if we have a shared understanding of what words and concepts mean. Whether we can then go on to say that our definition are objectively true is another matter, although I part company here with the Postmodernists as I believe there really is such a thing as "true truth".

[ 14. August 2017, 15:14: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mousethief

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Definitions can't be true or false, only agreed-upon or not-agreed-upon. It's like axioms (postulates) in Math. You don't prove an axiom. You accept it among yourselves, and go on to prove things from it. Definitions have no truth value.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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LC--

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
[gropes toward meaning]

There was a post. Yes, I'm sure of it.

But what did it say?

Is saying... a Thing?

Can we communicate?

And who do I mean by We?

I... I? Bye.

[Smile] Sounds like "the man who *really* rules the Universe" in the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy (H2G2) books. He was a pure philosopher.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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RuthW

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# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Definitions can't be true or false, only agreed-upon or not-agreed-upon. It's like axioms (postulates) in Math. You don't prove an axiom. You accept it among yourselves, and go on to prove things from it. Definitions have no truth value.

Well, maybe in math, but in ordinary speech many definitions are truth claims. People argue over definitions all the time.
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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Definitions can't be true or false, only agreed-upon or not-agreed-upon. It's like axioms (postulates) in Math. You don't prove an axiom. You accept it among yourselves, and go on to prove things from it. Definitions have no truth value.

Well, maybe in math, but in ordinary speech many definitions are truth claims. People argue over definitions all the time.
But what are they really arguing about? Not words.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But what are they really arguing about? Not words.

No - usually they're arguing about the implied equivalence between two things that is created by labeling them both with the same word.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But what are they really arguing about? Not words.

No - usually they're arguing about the implied equivalence between two things that is created by labeling them both with the same word.
Yup. They could come to an agreement on a list of words -- artificial words if need be -- then they could argue about whether they stood for the same group of objects or people, and not THINK they are arguing about words, but realize they are arguing about things.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mousethief

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Let me throw this out there. I am a traditional Christian but I don't feel hostility on the SOF. Well, not to my traditional Christianity (except from the conservative evangelicals), just to my brash and obnoxious behavior.

Then again, my position on the dead horses issues is often at variance with my church's official position. Leading me to conclude that much, most, or all of the "hostility to traditional Christians" is actually hostility toward "traditional" views on the dead horses issues.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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That would be my perception too, Mousethief.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Let me throw this out there. I am a traditional Christian but I don't feel hostility on the SOF. Well, not to my traditional Christianity (except from the conservative evangelicals), just to my brash and obnoxious behavior.

Then again, my position on the dead horses issues is often at variance with my church's official position. Leading me to conclude that much, most, or all of the "hostility to traditional Christians" is actually hostility toward "traditional" views on the dead horses issues.

I think that to those complaining those are one and the same thing.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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I did provide a non-sex stuff upthread as other markers.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I did provide a non-sex stuff upthread as other markers.

I didn't say "sex stuff" I said "dead horse issues." I found a list you gave which I reproduce here. Numbered for convenience. DH issues italicized

quote:
1. Ordination of women (yes, I know that's a dead equine. There are bound to be several in this mix by definition);
2. the nature of marriage and roles within it;
3. authority, authoritarianism, and freedom: where to draw the lines (particularly in the public sphere)
4. authority of Scripture (particularly over one's life); (borderline)
5. proper use of Scripture and/or tradition in the church; (borderline)
6. whether there is any value in humility, obedience, and self-sacrifice (all things called by varying names, positive or otherwise, depending on what your viewpoint is);
7. whether denial of certain doctrines (such as the resurrection) are sufficient to render one either "not a Christian," or "not saved";
8. Whether one should submit to wrongheaded authority, and if so, under what circumstances;
9. The comparative value of personal liberty when compared to other social or religious goods;
10. whether intellectual freedom has any limits, or ought to have;
11. What form the relationship between church and state ought to take, and how best to bring about that state of affairs;
12. whether religion is only for the private sphere;
13. to what extent a public official or a provider of public goods (such as a chef) ought to be permitted to take actions based on personal religious standards.

I'm trying to think of any instances of personal "hostilities" generated by most of these points (I mean the non-DH ones). (3), but that rarely is discussed in the abstract, but mostly with respect to DH issues (particularly the "sex" ones). (7), sure. (9) and (11) and (12), again, are almost always brought up in the context of DH issues. I have never seen (13) discussed outside of the context of DH issues.

So your attempt to show non-DH things that conservatives face hostility over seems to me a bit disingenuous.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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Thanks for impugning my motives. Disingenuous indeed!

I'm going to offer up one that is raging at my house right now and then I'll fuck off again. (Why I was dumb ass enough to come back I'll never know.)

We are arguing over 8 with regard to Trump and our wrongheaded governor, who has just cut Medicaid because he can. That is not a dead horse issue. Nor is it a "disingenuous" attempt to get in a pop at homosexuality, or OOW, or any of that stuff.

Fucking off now.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Louise
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# 30

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hosting
Please don't get personal with each other on this board. The correct place for that is Hell. Kindly dial it back a bit. 'Your attempt' is not 'you' but 'disingenuous' could be taken as an attack on the honesty of the person posting, so please step back from the line.
Thanks,
Louise
Dead Horses Host
hosting off

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mousethief

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# 953

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I didn't mention (8) in my breakdown. But let's say I had, not in re. DH territory, but in re. conservatives being attacked. What conservative has been attacked here regarding (8)?

[ 21. August 2017, 01:52: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Let me throw this out there. I am a traditional Christian but I don't feel hostility on the SOF. Well, not to my traditional Christianity (except from the conservative evangelicals), just to my brash and obnoxious behavior.

Then again, my position on the dead horses issues is often at variance with my church's official position. Leading me to conclude that much, most, or all of the "hostility to traditional Christians" is actually hostility toward "traditional" views on the dead horses issues.

[Smile] - which changes no leopard spots either way of course. Furthermore, surely you've felt hostility to the way dominant Christian tradition of Mary Ever Virgin?

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Love wins

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Furthermore, surely you've felt hostility to the way dominant Christian tradition of Mary Ever Virgin?

One of the real benefits to me of Ship membership has been the serious exploration of "theotokos" as opposed to "christotokos". I had a classic protestant blind spot, which made me more judgmental than I should have been.

I owe mousethief a nod of thanks for his help on that journey.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
We are arguing over 8 with regard to Trump and our wrongheaded governor, who has just cut Medicaid because he can. That is not a dead horse issue. Nor is it a "disingenuous" attempt to get in a pop at homosexuality, or OOW, or any of that stuff.

But how is that relevant to traditional Christianity? The political question of what healthcare the state should provide varies enormously between the different countries, but there's no necessary reason why traditional Christians could not take a range of views on the issue. I don't think a traditional Christian who was in favour of universal healthcare would encounter much hostility on that score here. A traditional Christian who was against it might, but the hostility would have nothing to do with that person's Christianity, traditional or otherwise.

Similarly, on your list of issues, 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 all relate to political questions of rights and liberties, and again I don't think that knowing that someone is a traditional Christian tells us much about whether he or she is liberal or illiberal on political questions. There are liberal, socialist, and conservative Christian traditions, as well as theocratic ones.

On your issue 6 (whether there is any value in humility, obedience, and self-sacrifice), I can't even guess at what position you think is 'traditional' and how that differs from other Christian views. I'd have thought that seeing the value in humility, obedience, and self-sacrifice is close to being a given for any Christian whatsoever, since those are key qualities that Jesus displayed in saving us. We can argue about how those qualities apply in particular circumstances, of course, but I don't think those people who experience most hostility here are especially noted for their meekness.

(Some genuinely humble people here* can, I concede, receive undeservedly harsh responses as a result of arguing similar positions to those who present arrogant and uncaring views on sensitive subjects, but being unfairly suspected of arrogance is not the same as being persecuted for humility).


(*And because I think you are humble enough that I can't be sure you'd make the attribution unprompted, I include you in this).

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Is too broad a stroke to say that the hostility, as it may exist, isn't about tradition, except as tradition is expressed via power, who and what gets to instruct and control whom. Which also allows an understanding of how traditional Roman Catholicism, GAFCON Anglicanism and trumpian evangelicalism could go together.
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leo
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# 1458

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Hostility, for some, is about life and death. Trads. in Nigeria and Uganda want gay men to be killed.

[ 23. August 2017, 23:05: Message edited by: Louise ]

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Martin60
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# 368

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At least it's something Christians and Muslims can agree on.

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Love wins

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