Posted                          

quote:

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Twelve points for Reform:

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

3. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.

9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.

10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

(John Shelby Spong, from the Wikipedia page.

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We don't believe in God as commonly understood.
We don't believe in the incarnation or the authority of any tradition.
We don't believe in the biblical narrative.
We deny the virgin birth and Christ's divinity.
We deny the reality of biblical miracles, or indeed any miracles that break the commonly understood laws of nature.
We deny theories of sacrificial atonement.
We deny the bodily, historical resurrection (though it's possible to see it differently.)
We deny the ascension.
We deny the moral objectivity of any written text.
We deny the power of prayer to accomplish any particular thing.
We deny any moral system that employs guilt.
We deny the rejection of any person based on external descriptors, and so we affirm the universal image of God.

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Originally posted by PhilA:
Bullfrog,
I don't think not quite knowing exactly what you are is a weakness, in fact, I think it's a strength.

You have to start from somewhere and saying 'we are not this' is a starting point you can work from. A lot of the Mitzvot is about showing how 'we' are different from 'them' and things like not eating pork, not having idols etc. are about showing how distinct the Jews are from the other ethnic groups. A lot of this is in saying 'we are not like this because...' and Spong is at that starting point.

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Originally posted by PhilA:
Bullfrog,
I don't think not quite knowing exactly what you are is a weakness, in fact, I think it's a strength.

You have to start from somewhere and saying 'we are not this' is a starting point you can work from. A lot of the Mitzvot is about showing how 'we' are different from 'them' and things like not eating pork, not having idols etc. are about showing how distinct the Jews are from the other ethnic groups. A lot of this is in saying 'we are not like this because...' and Spong is at that starting point.

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originally posted by Mama Thomas:
So they could gather,sing a song about self-esteem, discuss an inspirational quote from a non-DWEM (dead white European male), pass a sanitised pipe around, and make plans to do non-offensive voluteer work.

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Yep...Unitarians. Perhaps a politically correct Lion's or Rotary Club?

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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quote:

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

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originally posted by Mama Thomas:
So they could gather,sing a song about self-esteem, discuss an inspirational quote from a non-DWEM (dead white European male), pass a sanitised pipe around, and make plans to do non-offensive voluteer work.

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Yep...Unitarians. Perhaps a politically correct Lion's or Rotary Club?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

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originally posted by Mama Thomas:
So they could gather,sing a song about self-esteem, discuss an inspirational quote from a non-DWEM (dead white European male), pass a sanitised pipe around, and make plans to do non-offensive voluteer work.

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yep...Unitarians. Perhaps a politically correct Lion's or Rotary Club?

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Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

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Twelve points for Reform:

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

3. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.

9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.

10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

(John Shelby Spong, from the Wikipedia page.

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If there really is no room for that sort of understanding within the existing churches (and it seems that that is the case), then we hyper-liberal "Trans-Christian" heretics will have to start our own.

But, if we start with these ideas as a foundation, how would such a church actually operate? What would these starting points lead to in terms of church order, worship practices, music, liturgies, baptism, communion, evangelism, outreach etc? Would it still look like a church service?

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This sounds like he knows what he doesn't believe in. So what does he believe in ? This wopuld a church that needs not to exist lets all meet on the 1st hole of a golf club instead. No I do not think Spong's system has a chance in (fill in blank) of succeding .

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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8

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Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Also, negative things are stronger when the things that they are against are very prevalent.

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If you can't answer the question "who would you be when all of your (metaphysical) enemies are ground to dust beneath your feet," then success will kill you.

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Spong, to my eyes, still relies on the orthodox Church to define him as a "heretic." Other than that, he's practically invisible against the larger backdrop of dominant secular humanism. If the Church he reviles disappeared from all time tomorrow, what would he have left to do? If someone could answer that question, then I think they could also answer RadicalWhig's.

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Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I think what Spong is trying to construct is a religious atheism within a culturally Christian context, so you can have the utility of Christian praxis without the intellectual burden of Christian dogma or the shame of Christian history.

Though at the moment I'm wondering what RadicalWhig thinks of all of these comparisons...

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Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
[QUOTE]Twelve points for Reform:

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

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quote:

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2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

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quote:

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3. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

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quote:

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4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

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quote:

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5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

---

quote:

---

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

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quote:

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7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

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quote:

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8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.

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quote:

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9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.

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quote:

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10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

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quote:

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11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

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quote:

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12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

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Originally posted by PhilA:

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Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Also, negative things are stronger when the things that they are against are very prevalent.

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I would imagine that believing in a physical existent God is fairly prevalent in the church.

quote:

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If you can't answer the question "who would you be when all of your (metaphysical) enemies are ground to dust beneath your feet," then success will kill you.

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I utterly agree. That's probably what killed Jesus off.

quote:

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Spong, to my eyes, still relies on the orthodox Church to define him as a "heretic." Other than that, he's practically invisible against the larger backdrop of dominant secular humanism. If the Church he reviles disappeared from all time tomorrow, what would he have left to do? If someone could answer that question, then I think they could also answer RadicalWhig's.

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That's a poor argument. IF the church wasn't around then the argument was utterly null and void in any case. Spong is pushing against the church because he believe the church has lost its way. If te church wasn't there, then he wouldn't have to push.

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Exactly. Believing in God only exists within the church (and in my experience, even there it's pretty thin on the ground these days.) Outside of the church, Spong has nothing new to offer that I can see. That's what I mean when I say he's invisible to secular society. If there's nothing to distinguish him from his culture, then there's nothing to base his new church on. His vision only operates within the church that he blames for being an embarrassment.

If Spong's vision prevails, then the existing church is null and void. He's not "pushing," so much as trying to construct a new church, but without Christian dogma or Christian anything that doesn't comply with the core tenets of secular humanism. To that end he's become a secular humanist who wants, for some reason, to maintain the veneer of a religion without the substance.

As it depends on orthodoxy to define itself here, Spong's church would vanish if it weren't for the existence of the very dogmas he derides. He needs a vision bigger than what is being expressed here, methinks. He says "The Incarnation is out!" So, what does he put in? What is his core dogma?

And that, I think, is what RadicalWhig needs. Church order, evangelism, and outreach are matters of institutional structure. Worship practices, music, liturgies, baptism, and communion are matters of worship practice.

The problem, to me and I think others on this thread, is that all of these are only tools, extensions, and you can't extend your arm until you know where your body is and what you are reaching for. What's necessary is a mission statement (lacking a missio dei, of course .)

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Outside of the church, Spong has nothing new to offer that I can see. That's what I mean when I say he's invisible to secular society. If there's nothing to distinguish him from his culture, then there's nothing to base his new church on. His vision only operates within the church that he blames for being an embarrassment.

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quote:

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If Spong's vision prevails, then the existing church is null and void. He's not "pushing," so much as trying to construct a new church, but without Christian dogma or Christian anything that doesn't comply with the core tenets of secular humanism. To that end he's become a secular humanist who wants, for some reason, to maintain the veneer of a religion without the substance.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by PhilA:

quote:

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Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Outside of the church, Spong has nothing new to offer that I can see. That's what I mean when I say he's invisible to secular society. If there's nothing to distinguish him from his culture, then there's nothing to base his new church on. His vision only operates within the church that he blames for being an embarrassment.

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Is he trying to say anything to the secular society? I thought he was opening dialogue within the church.

quote:

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If Spong's vision prevails, then the existing church is null and void. He's not "pushing," so much as trying to construct a new church, but without Christian dogma or Christian anything that doesn't comply with the core tenets of secular humanism. To that end he's become a secular humanist who wants, for some reason, to maintain the veneer of a religion without the substance.

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We don't know what he does want or believe in, we only know what he doesn't believe in.

Spong is, IMHO, beginning to open a dialogue, not stating an entire faith system.

All he appears to be doing is saying "look, we don't think in this way anymore." What now needs to be done is discuss in what ways we do think.

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Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Well, this thread is very instructive.

If you can't see the Good in Christianity that is left when all that is removed, then you are blind to what really counts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Well, this thread is very instructive.

If you can't see the Good in Christianity that is left when all that is removed, then you are blind to what really counts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
He talks about living in a post-Newtonian universe. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm terrible at science), but isn't Newton outdated? The idea that the universe operates by fixed and static laws is somewhat discredited, isn't it?

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Well, this thread is very instructive.

If you can't see the Good in Christianity that is left when all that is removed, then you are blind to what really counts.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
The only positive statement I can see in that entire list is that "All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is."

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Which is of course completely meaningless because he doesn't have any definition or even description of "God" (who doesn't exist anyway). He's borrowing the Christian understanding of humans as being made in God's image, while jettisoning the Christian (or as far as I can tell, any) God. It's a conjuror's trick.

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