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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: AS: Expressing solidarity with gay shipmates
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Am I alone in wanting to express solidarity with our gay shipmates? I have suddenly gone from extreme anger to near tears: having already decided not to respond to any more posts that I find provocative, the latest few are depressing in the extreme - for me, let alone to gay Christians, I suppose.
Some gay shipmates may find this patronising - apologies, if so. Some shipmates appear to me to have been hurt simply because of who they are and to these I simply say 'Peace / Shalom'.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 29. March 2010, 21:23: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Prayers for all of us who are a bit ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) at the moment, yes.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Alicïa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
I lurk often and post seldom these days, so I can't say I decide not to post on a given subject as my posting is so infrequent anyway, but sometimes I am astounded by the judgemental and provocative nature from so called Christians. There was a time when I would have got involved instead of lurking on the sidelines and feeling sadness but not expressing it.
Recently some of the posts I have read, with regards to the issue of gay Christian shipmates have been so uncharitable and depressing, so yes.
I'm with you there, and with all of you in my thoughts of and prayers if you need them.
[ 04. January 2010, 10:34: Message edited by: Alicïa ]
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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Rosa Gallica officinalis
Shipmate
# 3886
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Posted
for my gay shipmates and friends, and especially those who face such bitterness IRL where they cannot simply 'not click on those threads' to avoid it.
for the whole Church of Christ, that we may learn to love one another.
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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.
Posts: 874 | From: The Hemlock Hideout | Registered: Jan 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Mark: No, you're not being patronizing. This gay Shipmate and her partner (with whom I share some of the more outlandish, as well as the more supportive, comments made here) thank you for your kindness and support.
My denomination is currently going through a maelstrom over its recent decision to officially accept partnered gay people into the ordained ministry. Sometimes I read the hateful comments on the ELCA Facebook page and just start crying. Here the ecumenical nature of the discussion tends to diffuse that anger and frustration somewhat -- sort of like the distant relation being difficult instead of one's immediate family -- but it's still often incredibly jarring to see the overt contempt with which some of my sisters and brothers in Christ hold me. So it's a relief to read posts like yours; it really is.
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Thanks Mark, I don't find it at all patronising; I think prayerful support is always welcome.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
Awww, Mark: You make me feel all cuddly-wuddly inside! Thanks! I've got issues with low blood pressure rather than high blood pressure so maybe I'll venture over and read the posts from the scary homophobes. Then again, do I need any more stress in my life?!
Dumb question. ISTM that mad waves of virulent homophobia seems to come in waves every once in a while, then it sort of quiets down for a while until the next wave appears. Sigh. I notice that happening with the anti-immigrant crap in America, most specifically Georgia, since that's where I live now. And it's always "those people" who are evil: The gays, the Mexicans, the Blacks, those dreadful pagans, those left-handed Godless Communists...
Anyway, thanks for your solidarity.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Prayerful support is indeed always welcome.
One of the most sadenning things for me is to discover how thick-skinned and cynical I've become in 47 years of being a poof for Jesus. These days when I encounter opposition, I drop the rational argument and remind my interlocutor how silly they'd feel in the A&E department having to have a size 9 strappy sandal surgically removed from where the sun don't shine.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I clicked "reply" with a head full of things to say and they one by one hung their heads and slunk away, leaving me only with this writing in the dust and this guy Jesus.
I can only wish God's love to all, gay and straight and in-between, and an apology for anything I have done that made your life(ves) harder.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ErinBear
Shipmate
# 13173
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Posted
I, too, remember our LGBT brothers and sisters in prayer. I believe so firmly that God's love is for all people. All people.
Blessings,
ErinBear
Posts: 2441 | From: California, USA | Registered: Nov 2007
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Not patronising at all - thanks very much in fact! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Can I join in...
I struggle a bit sometimes as a parent and wonder how best to smooth the way, without creating a problem or issue that doesn't need to exist.
This generation has blurred all the boundaries, and it's hard work to create a new set of norms to live by.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
Mark, Thank you very much. Care, prayer and loving kindness are never patronising. Yyour words are much appreciated.
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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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Margaret
Shipmate
# 283
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Posted
Someone I loved a lot died just before Christmas; he was in his eighties, and gay and a Christian at a time when it was even harder than it is now. He gave up going to church a long time ago, and I'd assumed it was because of church politics (we both left that church for the same reason, but I eventually found another one and he didn't). Since he died it's struck me that he might have feared rejection in a new church because he was gay.
He remained a Christian all his life (he told me once he prayed every day) but never again contributed his kindness and generosity and wisdom to a church community. We all lose out if we drive away our brothers and sisters.
Posts: 2456 | From: West Midlands UK | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I think that some of the nicest, best people here are the gay ones, and they certainly have all the support I can give them! Love you all, guys!
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Can I join in...
I struggle a bit sometimes as a parent and wonder how best to smooth the way, without creating a problem or issue that doesn't need to exist.
This generation has blurred all the boundaries, and it's hard work to create a new set of norms to live by.
Yup, agreed. Luckily dear son goes to an excellent Quaker school where they are very accepting of everyone, and he's grown up seeing a variety of different relationships in the world around him. We're able to talk about things in a very sensible way as a result.
God loves everyone. Even bisexual people on the autism spectrum, as I understand it.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
for my gay shipmates and friends, and especially those who face such bitterness IRL where they cannot simply 'not click on those threads' to avoid it.
for the whole Church of Christ, that we may learn to love one another.
Beautifully put
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I'd run out of candles if I lit one for every gay person who has helped me on my Christian journey. But a few more anyway:
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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neandergirl
Opposing the thumb
# 8916
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Posted
Echoing RGo, MT, and EB.
May we one day (fingers crossed, very soon) learn to live 'Love God' and 'Love one another'.
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Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you. Hebrews 13:5 NIV
We come from love, we return to love, and all around is love.
Lord, ease our burdens, give us peace and enable us to do your work. Tree Bee
Posts: 2579 | From: 21218 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Not
Ship's Quack
# 2166
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Posted
Thank you for thinking of this thread. I've just spent Christmas with my friend, who is a gay CofE priest and am still angry and sad at the depth of his hurt at the hands of the church.
For all who persist faithfully in churches who harangue, ignore and reject those they should celebrate, cherish and be thankful for
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Was CJ; now Not
Posts: 600 | From: the far, far West | Registered: Jan 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I am another person who would like to express solidarity.
We have some amazing gay people in the church and we would be so much poorer spiritually if we didn't value them for their insights and understandings. The scandal of choosing to judge, when we're told not to and to look at the speck in others' eyes to see that one fault and fail to look at our own logs of failings is failing to be Christian.
[ 04. January 2010, 19:19: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
And me
quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
He remained a Christian all his life (he told me once he prayed every day) but never again contributed his kindness and generosity and wisdom to a church community. We all lose out if we drive away our brothers and sisters.
And this really moved me. I wonder how many people (not just those who are gay) there are that we have missed out on because they feel (or indeed are) rejected by church.
[ 04. January 2010, 19:35: Message edited by: Yangtze ]
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Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen
Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?
Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
The homophobia of some Christians makes me ashamed, whereas many gay Christians are inspiring.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
If I was sick, I saw my friends visiting me.
If I am in health, my friends rejoice with me.
When they are sick, I visit them.
When they are well, I rejoice with them.
Except I don't notice the "gay" bit. They are friends. God made them as surely as he made me.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yangtze:
And me
quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
He remained a Christian all his life (he told me once he prayed every day) but never again contributed his kindness and generosity and wisdom to a church community. We all lose out if we drive away our brothers and sisters.
And this really moved me. I wonder how many people (not just those who are gay) there are that we have missed out on because they feel (or indeed are) rejected by church.
I think Henri Nouwen said something along the lines of 'No-one has ever left the church because they were loved too much'. The church (at times) has a lot to answer for.
Auntie Doris x
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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
The hardest part about being a DH Host is having to read all that homophobic 'crap' (a word I only use when circumstances allow for none other!) and being restrained from getting involved. (It is considered undesirable for a host to post on a thread s/he has to host - if I post as a shipmate, I get Louise to host the thread.)
My heart goes out to Christian gays, as it does to all who are abused in any way by self-defined 'christians' when we are commanded to love God and love our neighbour. Our Lord did not qualify that command in any way.
Must try that thought on BMS if/when he returns...
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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PrettyFly
Ship's sunbather
# 13157
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I have suddenly gone from extreme anger to near tears: having already decided not to respond to any more posts that I find provocative, the latest few are depressing in the extreme - for me, let alone to gay Christians, I suppose.
Me, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I clicked "reply" with a head full of things to say and they one by one hung their heads and slunk away, leaving me only with this writing in the dust and this guy Jesus.
I can only wish God's love to all, gay and straight and in-between, and an apology for anything I have done that made your life(ves) harder.
Me, too.
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Screw today. I'm going for ice cream.
Posts: 1797 | From: Where the sun keeps shining and where the weather suits my clothes | Registered: Nov 2007
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
What I wanted to say has all been said, really...
Edited to add - but I still wanted to say it.
[ 04. January 2010, 21:10: Message edited by: St Everild ]
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
No one should have to put up with the bile and vitriol that has been heaped on GLBT shipmates recently. Sexual orientation should not be used to decide whether someone is a human being and worthy of respect and, let's be honest, common courtesy. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I suppose that God loves homophobes despite their homophobia, but I admit that I find them considerably less likeable than gays.
I think this is a valid extension of Gal 3:28 and in its spirit for this situation.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, there is neither gay nor straight – for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.
[ 04. January 2010, 22:59: Message edited by: Latchkey Kid ]
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Blowing the dust off my pink triangle lapel pin... which is gathering dust because I, naive as hell, didn't think it needed to be worn anymore. I thought those questions were settled and we had all moved on. (I have had the luxury of thinking that.) Apparently I was wrong.
Sorry for my complacency.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I've been reading these threads with growing horror. I'm so sorry that some shipmates have had to deal with this crap yet again.
And I weep for my dear friend, a better Christian by far than me, who, as she puts it, is simply 'fed up with being an abomination'.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
Thanks Mark and others.
These discussions always wear me down and lead me to question why I am here (both on SoF and in the church) but then a warm hug makes all the difference. Besides, I have tried to give up my faith and God drags me back.
Thanks again all.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
What Tony said. I'm so sorry that people have had to put up with so much abuse.
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
I wish I could come up with something half as eloquent as the things that have been said here. I do know that I can't bear to imagine my EfM groups, my parish, my diocese, and indeed, *this* community, without the presence, witness, and ministry of its gay members.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I was reluctant to say anything on this thread, as I did not want to appear to be patronising, or indeed isolating our gay* shipmates. But the headline in today's paper, to the effect that a visit by 3 "evangelicals" to Uganda has strengthened the resolve of the government there to impose the death penalty for some homosexual offences, demands that we all express our appreciation of and suport for gay shipmates, gay fellow parishioners and gays generally in our society. In addition, we should publicise our horror that such legislation could be contemplated.
* "gay" includes the entire GLBTQ range of expression.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
I've been reading these threads with growing horror. I'm so sorry that some shipmates have had to deal with this crap yet again.
I'm finding it hard to put my feelings into words, so I hope you don't mind if I borrow yours Cottontail.
Also ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) for those more eloquent than I who have hung in there, refuting ignorance and hatred.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Adding my own small for those facing "correctional rape" and death in some countries
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
If I was sick, I saw my friends visiting me.
If I am in health, my friends rejoice with me.
When they are sick, I visit them.
When they are well, I rejoice with them.
Except I don't notice the "gay" bit. They are friends. God made them as surely as he made me.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Tractor Girl
Shipmate
# 8863
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
If I was sick, I saw my friends visiting me.
If I am in health, my friends rejoice with me.
When they are sick, I visit them.
When they are well, I rejoice with them.
Except I don't notice the "gay" bit. They are friends. God made them as surely as he made me.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Another thanks to those have posted affirming LGBT people from a non-hetro shipmate.
I want to for those who have been putting the otherside of the argument forward aswell though. Pete's "friends" comment applies to them too. Just as my friends don't look at me in terms of my sexuality I don't look at them in terms of every opinion and biblical interpretation they hold.
Yes people say things that I and others find deeply hurtful, but there needs to be a space for this stuff to be said and debate to be held, (even if it does get circular).
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Patience, Firmness and Perseverance were my only weapons; and those I resolved to use to the utmost - Anne Bronte
Posts: 1114 | From: The field of life | Registered: Dec 2004
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Dal Segno
al Fine
# 14673
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Posted
[ETA: I cannot think of anything to add to what has been said but wanted to express support]
[ 05. January 2010, 08:59: Message edited by: Dal Segno ]
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Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds
Posts: 1200 | From: Pacific's triple star | Registered: Mar 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I'd like to add my best wishes to this list.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I still have to put up with BMS on the Fulcrum forums ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I hope I've attempted (in my own ham-fisted way) to voice my own objections to the lunacy that broke out. Apologies to my brothers and sisters for any sin of commission or omission.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dormouse
Glis glis – Ship's rodent
# 5954
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Posted
Everyone else is more able to say what I want to say better than me, but I add a for everyone who needs it...
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What are you doing for Lent?
40 days, 40 reflections, 40 acts of generosity. Join the #40acts challenge for #Lent and let's start a movement. www.40acts.org.uk
Posts: 3042 | From: 'twixt les Bois Noirs & Les Monts de la Madeleine | Registered: May 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I'm sorry that I haven't dived into the fray in the recent turmoil, but I know myself, and I'd have likely wound up with a hostly warning because I get so pissed off at such crap.
But "Solidarity!"
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
If I was sick, I saw my friends visiting me.
If I am in health, my friends rejoice with me.
When they are sick, I visit them.
When they are well, I rejoice with them.
Except I don't notice the "gay" bit. They are friends. God made them as surely as he made me.
I have started a thread in Purgatory on this subject, not wanting to derail this one.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Athrawes:
No one should have to put up with the bile and vitriol that has been heaped on GLBT shipmates recently. Sexual orientation should not be used to decide whether someone is a human being and worthy of respect and, let's be honest, common courtesy.
Absolutely agreed: the debating of issues on the boards is one thing, but what has gone on recently has been far more damaging to fellow human beings and fellow Christians.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Expressing solidarity here
I am forever grateful for the witness and perseverence of the gay members of my church despite the hierachy's condemnation.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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