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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Mary and Islam
Wottinger
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In doing a small amount of web research (for our Advent Posada blog - see link below), and talking to a local imam, I have been surprised at the respect Muslims have for Our Lady, Mary, Mariam. I'm told she is the only woman who has a chapter of the Quran named after her, and some Muslims will say Mariam (peace be upon her).

This has led me to wonder whether a two faiths meeting to talk about her would be interesting, and how we would differ in our views.

It also has made me wonder if there is another significant shared figure on which some dialogue could be based. Mary is a particularly interesting figure, being a woman, to start discussion about the role of women etc.

Any thoughts?

[ 06. May 2010, 19:15: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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malik3000
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I understand that the Qur'an actually has more verses about Mary than does the New Testament.

Since Islam considers Abraham = Ibrahim to be its spiritual ancestor, like Judaism and Christianity, basically the Hebrew Patriarchs and Prophets are share by Christianity and Islam, as are John the Baptist and indeed Jesus = Issa. Of course there are some significant differences in how Christians and Muslims view Jesus. Although Muslims doesn't belief Jesus died on the Cross and rose again, and though they believe he was only human, not divine, on the other hand, Muslims believe in his virgin birth, and that it will be Jesus who will be the Judge at the Last Judgement.

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leo
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"Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them. Then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said, 'I seek refuge from you to God Most Gracious! Do not come near me, if you fear God!' He said, 'No, I am only a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a holy son.' She said, 'How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?' He said, 'So (it will be). Your Lord says, 'That is easy for Me, and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men, and a Mercy from Us. It is a matter (so) decreed'" (19:16-21, the Chapter of Mary)
"Behold! The angels said, 'Oh Mary! God has chosen you and purified you, chosen you above the women of all nations. Oh Mary! Worship your Lord devoutly. Prostrate yourself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down'" (3:42-43).
"And (remember) she who guarded her chastity. We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples (21:91).
[While describing people who were good examples for others] "...And Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity. And We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit. She testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)" (66:12).
"O my Lord! I do dedicate into Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things." (Quran 3:35).

"Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." (Quran 19:16-17). After seeing the angel, she said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God." (Quran 19:18). The angel Gabriel responded: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a pure son." (Quran 19:19). Her next response is expected. She asked: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (Quran 19:20). The Angel Gabriel said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us.' It is a matter (so) decreed." (Quran 19:21).

"And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree. She cried (in her anguish): 'Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten!'" (Quran 19:23). "But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): 'Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.'" (Quran 19:24-26).

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Margaret

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A few years ago the woman who ran the bookshop attached to one of the RC churches in this town, which is in an area with a lot of people of Pakistani descent, told me that sometimes Muslims came into the shop and bought cards and pictures of Mary - and one of them had said to her, "She is our mother too".
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LutheranChik
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I've heard that in countries with peacefully coexisting Muslim and Christian communities Muslims -- particularly women -- will often come to churches to pray for Mary's intercession. Islam is to me such an oppressively male institution, it's interesting to me how women still find ways to access the Divine through a female agent.
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
A few years ago the woman who ran the bookshop attached to one of the RC churches in this town, which is in an area with a lot of people of Pakistani descent, told me that sometimes Muslims came into the shop and bought cards and pictures of Mary - and one of them had said to her, "She is our mother too".

What a sad case of the blind leading the blind.
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Triple Tiara

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[Disappointed]

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Triple Tiara

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I've heard that in countries with peacefully coexisting Muslim and Christian communities Muslims -- particularly women -- will often come to churches to pray for Mary's intercession.

I have seen this in practice at Ephesus, at Meryemana which is a place of pilgrimage for both Christians and Muslims. It was the Feast of Corpus Christi and while a Catholic Bishop was presiding at Benediction, a constant flow of Muslim women were entering the house as well, to say their prayers.

And of course Fatima in Portugal is named after the daughter of Mohammed.

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Fuzzipeg
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Well, TTT, not quite. Fatima is named after a Muslim woman who was named after the daughter of Muhammad. Hence the interest by some in making Fatima more Muslim friendly as many come there.

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daisymay

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And Fatima was a brave child - she rescued her father when he was being attacked by others around who did not like his "new" teaching and prayer. So it's stayed a really good name for a girl and is liked by people of different religions, IMO.

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Benny Diction 2
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As a Christian of Protestant persuasion I don't give Mary much time. But I have to say I find this thread fascinating and if Mary provides a way for Christians to have a dialogue that's got to be good. But ultimately it is about Jesus. Christians see Jesus as the Son of God (fully human and fully divine) whereas (as i understand it) Muslims see him (at best) as a minor prophet.

I suppose come the last days the truth will out - one way or the other!

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Wottinger
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Yes, indeed Benny Diction, it will be ultimately about Jesus Christ. However, it may be that Mary is a way into discussion.

I do not know the Quran very well. I wonder which Old Testament figures stand out in Islam as well as Judaism and Christianity.

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RadicalWhig
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quote:
Originally posted by Wottinger:
Yes, indeed Benny Diction, it will be ultimately about Jesus Christ. However, it may be that Mary is a way into discussion.

I do not know the Quran very well. I wonder which Old Testament figures stand out in Islam as well as Judaism and Christianity.

Abraham (Ibrahim) and Noah (Nud) feature quite heavily.

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Aravis
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Most of the story of Joseph is in there too. And Elizabeth and Zechariah from the New Testament.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Benny Diction 2:
whereas (as i understand it) Muslims see him (at best) as a minor prophet.

A minor prophet who just happens to be the only one born of a virgin, and the only one who will sit at the last judgment? Have you read the thread?

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Benny Diction 2
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Benny Diction 2:
whereas (as i understand it) Muslims see him (at best) as a minor prophet.

A minor prophet who just happens to be the only one born of a virgin, and the only one who will sit at the last judgment? Have you read the thread?
No, I'm just typing things at random. Of course I've read the thread. I have been told by a Muslim 3 or 4 months ago that Jesus is regarded as a minor prophet by Muslims.

Even if most Muslims regard Jesus as a major prophet in the view of this Christian they've got it wrong.

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Badger Lady
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Benny Diction 2:
whereas (as i understand it) Muslims see him (at best) as a minor prophet.

A minor prophet who just happens to be the only one born of a virgin, and the only one who will sit at the last judgment? Have you read the thread?
Try this as well Benny Diction 2. Jesus is a major prophet in Islam and up there with the best of them.

ETA: X-post, sorry!

[ 14. December 2009, 17:27: Message edited by: Badger Lady ]

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Chesterbelloc

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I suppose Jesus could be both a major and a minor figure in Islam: major prophet with serious import and astonishing uniqueness according to the Islamic texts; pretty minor/neglected by most Muslims in practice and contemporary teaching. In fact, given what the texts seem to say about Jesus, I can only imagine that some Muslims might very well feel the need to downplay them lest He emerge as larger figure than the central tenets of Islam as it has developed allow.

What I am most reminded of when looking at the stuff linked to here is how natural it seems that Islam was for a long time seen as essentially a melange of specifically Christian heresies (forms of Gnosticism, adoptionism, etc. - it also reminds me of Mormonism in that respect too). In the same way, I can acknowledge the Muslim perspective of orthodox Christainity as fussily-embroidered coat cut from plain Judeo-monotheistic cloth.

If a friendly comparison of our respective beliefs and esteem for Jesus and His Mother could be help loosen tensions between Muslims and Christians, that would be terrifically neat. This would constitute true inter-religious progress and might help kick some of the loopy syncretist "inter-faith" antics in to touch - which would also be pretty cool.

[ 14. December 2009, 21:12: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]

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Hawk

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The similarities regarding Jesus are interesting. Yet I'm a little confused regarding how they view Him. Many Surahs claim that Jesus didn't die and rise again, yet was raised up to Allah instead before he died. Yet elsewhere in Surah 19:33 it has Jesus saying (just after birth) "And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life."

That seems to talk of death and resurrection doesn't it? Is this a contradiction or am I just misunderstanding?

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Graven Image
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Triple Tiara wrote
quote:
have seen this in practice at Ephesus, at Meryemana which is a place of pilgrimage for both Christians and Muslims.
Indeed I knelt in prayer next to a Muslim women there, it was something that I will never forget.
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Graven Image
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Triple Tiara wrote
quote:
have seen this in practice at Ephesus, at Meryemana which is a place of pilgrimage for both Christians and Muslims.
Indeed I knelt in prayer next to a Muslim women there, it was something that I will never forget.
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Golden Key
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I'm no expert on Islam. But I figure that it emphasizes one God because it came out of a culture where there were many. And it's so fierce about that that it can't accept Jesus as God incarnate...but it still sees him as very special, and many Muslims love and respect him.

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daisymay

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Golden Key,
that sounds real. I remember when I was teaching religions, including both Islam and Christianity, that one of the teenage girls, a Muslim in a Muslim family, told us that her brother had a dream/visualisation of Jesus and felt loved and blessed by Jesus. She felt disappointed that she had not had that dream and wished and hoped that she'd have it...

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Ricardus
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I once read a fundamentalist Christian gleefully claiming that the Quran says Jesus was the Christ but not the Messiah (or possibly the other way round), thus tying itself in quite an effective knot. Is this true or is it just unfounded Islam-bashing?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
The similarities regarding Jesus are interesting. Yet I'm a little confused regarding how they view Him. Many Surahs claim that Jesus didn't die and rise again, yet was raised up to Allah instead before he died. Yet elsewhere in Surah 19:33 it has Jesus saying (just after birth) "And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life."

That seems to talk of death and resurrection doesn't it? Is this a contradiction or am I just misunderstanding?

The Muslim Egyptian surgeon and educationalist Kamel Hussein has argued that:
No cultured Muslim believes, nowadays [that someone substituted for Jesus on the cross]. The text is taken to mean that the Jews thought they killed Christ but God raised him unto Him in a way we can leave unexplained among the several mysteries which we have taken for granted on faith alone.

Whilst most Muslims believe that Jesus did not die, but was taken up by God and will return as a sign of the last day, that is probably not the meaning of the Qur’an but rather how many Muslims have interpreted it.

The weight of the Qur’an is in favour of a real death, e.g., Q19.33 “Peace is upon me [Jesus], the day of my birth and the day of my death,” indicates that Jesus died

The Arabic word mutawaffika, employed in these passages of Jesus is used of people dying in Q2.240 and, in Q6:60 of believers being called to God in the night, raised up to complete a stated term and returning to him. The most contentious passage between Muslims and Christians about Jesus is Q4.157, which most Muslims see as a denial of the crucifixion. This in turn has led them to interpret Q3.55 against its natural sense, to mean that Jesus did not die. Q4.157 comes in a section (Q4.155-159): So for their breaking their [the Jews’] covenant, and disbelieving the signs of God, and killing the prophets without right,.., and for their unbelief, and their speaking against Mary a great slander; and for their saying: “We killed the Messiah, Jesus the Son of Mary, the messenger of God” — though they did not kill him and did not crucify him but only a likeness of it was shown to them. Truly, those who have gone in different ways about him are in doubt about him; they have no know ledge of him and only follow speculation; though they certainly did not kill him. No, to be sure, God raised him to himself. God is almighty and wise. And there is no People of the Book but will surely believe in him before his death and on the day of resurrection he will be a witness against them.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I once read a fundamentalist Christian gleefully claiming that the Quran says Jesus was the Christ but not the Messiah (or possibly the other way round), thus tying itself in quite an effective knot. Is this true or is it just unfounded Islam-bashing?

I wonder if this might be the part of Islam that expects the Mahdi, who is a sort of messiah?

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Ricardus
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Looking on Google and Wikipedia, I think it's just Islam-bashing. It seems Muslims do regard Jesus as al-Masih, and whether Masih is translated as "Messiah" or "Christ" just depends on the translation, e.g. this parallel translation of the Quran:
quote:
YUSUFALI: In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."
PICKTHAL: They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

Another fundy myth gone ...

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Aravis
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The quotation from Surah 19:33 where Jesus says "Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive" perhaps seems less significant when you read the rest of the Surah, as it says exactly the same of John the Baptist in S.19:15.
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brightmorningstar
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The problem with Islam is it doesnt actually recognise the same people, it appears to but there is a rather enormous difference between Jesus Christ the risen Son of God and Isa (Jesus) a human prophet.
Muslims can easily identify with Mary as with Abraham and Jesus because to them they were all Muslims. So excellent information from Quran sources from leo about Mary in Islamic belief but as similar as it seems, in reality it couldnt be further from the truth.

NB I have no experience of anywhere in the Quran or Hadith where it is suggested that Jesus is the final judge.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...I wonder if this might be the part of Islam that expects the Mahdi, who is a sort of messiah?

Belief, or non-belief, in the Mahdi, is a very contentious subject amongst Muslims.

A great deal has been written on the subject by both Muslim and Western scholars. Most of it very complicated.

A simple answer on this one would be very difficult.

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Golden Key
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Right, I know the Mahdi is controversial. I just thought it might be a plausible explanation for what was posted.
[Smile]

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brightmorningstar
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One way to address any apparent contradiction with the Quran is to appreciate the abrogation. There were essentially two major revelation episodes to Mohammed, one in Mecca and the subsequent one in Medina. In Mecca Mohammed was trying to convince the tribes and the Jews, and in Medina there was big Jewish opposition to what he proposed which lead to physical conflict. The Quran is not in this chronological order and when one reads passages which refer to the Jews as people of the book, and to them as monkeys and pigs it reflects the mecca and medina revelations resepctively. The abrogation is that the latter revealtions where appearing to contradict the former, take precedance.
There is nothing usual to me in the concept, the NT covent takes precedence over the OT covenant, but it is worth remmebering that one is unlike to hear much from western muslims about monkeys and pigs as one is to hear about the people of the book.

Leo provides some very valuable information on this topic. I would add refernces such as surah 9:30 "9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! "
This is from the Medina revelations

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Right, I know the Mahdi is controversial. I just thought it might be a plausible explanation for what was posted.
[Smile]

How?
[Confused]

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
... it is worth remmebering that one is unlike to hear much from western muslims about monkeys and pigs as one is to hear about the people of the book...

It would appear that you wish to take controversy to the Muslims, bms.

Please do.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Right, I know the Mahdi is controversial. I just thought it might be a plausible explanation for what was posted.
[Smile]

How?
[Confused]

Well, the poster to whom I was responding mentioned Muslims accepting Jesus as Christ but not Messiah, or vice-versa. Just seemed to me that someone who is awaiting the Mahdi might not be inclined to see Jesus as a/the messiah, because they've already got one. FWIW.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Right, I know the Mahdi is controversial. I just thought it might be a plausible explanation for what was posted.
[Smile]

How?
[Confused]

Well, the poster to whom I was responding mentioned Muslims accepting Jesus as Christ but not Messiah, or vice-versa. Just seemed to me that someone who is awaiting the Mahdi might not be inclined to see Jesus as a/the messiah, because they've already got one. FWIW.
There is a book in English called 'Mystical Secrets of the Last Days' published in 1994 by Shakyh Muhammad Nazim Adil Al-Haqqani An-Naqshbandi, which has a chapter entitled 'Armageddon, the Saviour (al-Mahdi), Jesus Christ, Anti-Christ and the Jinn', where he delineates the difference he sees between the Mahdi and Jesus.

Shaykh Nazim has claimed elsewhere to have met the Mahdi previously with his own Sufi sheikh.

I think it would be fair to say that Shaykh Nazim would be considered somewhat eccentric in mainstream Islam. He seems to have predicted the coming of the Mahdi in a Lebanese mountain village at the turn of the millennium. The event did not occur.

Stricter Muslims like the late Muhammad Assad, the late translator of a most respected version of the Quran in English, regard belief in the Mahdi as being a flow over into Sunni Islam of the Shi'ite belief in the Twelfth Imam, who is supposed not to have died but gone into occultation.

As far as I am aware, belief in the Mahdi seems to be based on Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) rather than the Quran. There is a whole Islamic methodology of Hadith verification. I suspect those which purportedly tell of the Mahdi and his coming are not the best authenticated.

The predicted arrival of the Mahdi seems very similar to the prognostications of those Christians who believe the events described in the Book of Revelation will actually happen.

I found the poster you quoted somewhat ambiguous.

PS I am not setting myself up as a Mahdiologist! [Big Grin]

[ 20. December 2009, 04:20: Message edited by: Sir Pellinore (ret'd) ]

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brightmorningstar
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Muslims don’t accept Jesus Christ, they have Isa as a prophet but they don’t recognise Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Surah 9:30 for example.
I should read 1 John 4 to find out about those who do not accept the Son don’t have the Father God either, and what spirit is behind the denial in 1 John 2.

I believe Madhi is in Hadith but I have never come across it and have never heard a Muslim refer to Madhi as Isa.

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Mikko
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Brightmorningstar wrote:
quote:
there is a rather enormous difference between Jesus Christ the risen Son of God and Isa (Jesus) a human prophet
Heresies, ancient and modern, tend to go to one of two extremes: they either emphasise Jesus' humanity at the expense of his divinity, or they emphasise his divinity at the expense of his humanity.

In much of western Christianity we react against notions of Jesus being only a man, so that we forget that he was a man. Jesus was a human prophet, a really smart teacher. He was also divine. The term "Son of God" may or may not be useful to describe Jesus' divinity.

Jesus was not the Son of God.

Muslims are represented as understanding the phrase "Son of God" as meaning that God had sex with a woman and Jesus was the result. They reject this idea, and so do I. Perhaps we need to find a phrase more accurate and meaningful when speaking of Jesus' divinity.

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praying for a glimpse of you

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brightmorningstar
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To Mikko
----------------------------
Heresies, ancient and modern, tend to go to one of two extremes: they either emphasise Jesus' humanity at the expense of his divinity, or they emphasise his divinity at the expense of his humanity.
----------------------------

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Jesus was not the Son of God.
----------------------------

That’s the heresy you have just described.

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Muslims are represented as understanding the phrase "Son of God" as meaning that God had sex with a woman and Jesus was the result. They reject this idea, and so do I. Perhaps we need to find a phrase more accurate and meaningful when speaking of Jesus' divinity.
----------------------------

You are correct to reject that that is what most Muslims would understand Son of God to mean and it is useful for Christians not to witness in this way, even though strangely Islam has the concept of the virgin birth.
The key to know that Allah and God are not the same is from 1 John 2 and 4 if there was ever any doubt from reading the Bible.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I found the poster you quoted somewhat ambiguous.

Sorry. I was quoting a Christian fundamentalist who claimed that the Quran said Jesus was the Christ but definitely not the Messiah. Since "Christ" is just the Greek word for "Messiah", this would mean that Quran doesn't know what it's talking about, and we could all point and laugh.

Since I don't regard Christian fundamentalists as a reliable source on Islam, I asked the thread whether this was true. From what I've read elsewhere, it seems that it's not true, and my posts can be ignored, and possibly even pointed to and laughed at.

Apologies for the tangent ...

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I found the poster you quoted somewhat ambiguous.

Sorry. I was quoting a Christian fundamentalist who claimed that the Quran said Jesus was the Christ but definitely not the Messiah. Since "Christ" is just the Greek word for "Messiah", this would mean that Quran doesn't know what it's talking about, and we could all point and laugh.

Since I don't regard Christian fundamentalists as a reliable source on Islam, I asked the thread whether this was true. From what I've read elsewhere, it seems that it's not true, and my posts can be ignored, and possibly even pointed to and laughed at.

Apologies for the tangent ...

No need to apologise. I was just confused.

I was even more confused when Golden Key brought up the Mahdi, a rather bizarre construct based on a misunderstanding of their own religion IMO by certain Muslims.

When talking to Muslims I think it important not to confuse the Christian and Islamic viewpoints which are quite different. Chesterbelloc's post on this thread was an excellent guide as to how to handle genuine Christian-Muslim interfaith relations.

In these current times I am not sure that religious controversy for its own sake between the two religions is a wise strategy. In this regard I am reminded of the late Ahmed Deedat, a bitter and inveterate controversialist against Christianity.

My gut feeling is that most Christians out there in the world really need to get back to their own religious wellsprings before attempting to encounter any other religions in any depth.

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Eddy
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Do Muslims have special places they associate with Our Lady / Mary?

Are their special stories or legends about her in Muslim tradition?

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brightmorningstar
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As to the quote..
claimed that the Quran said Jesus was the Christ but definitely not the Messiah.
For example …
Surah 9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
Some more translations..
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Now there were never any records of the Jews thinking Ezra was the son of God so where that came from I don’t know, but the reality is the Quran doesn’t say Jesus is the Christ because the Quran doesn’t acknowledge who the Bible shows Christ is.

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brightmorningstar
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As to Mary (Miriam) there are refernces in the Quran, but again even on a worldy basis if they contradict with the accounts given by the community who were around at the time and knew Mary which account would a court believe?
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leo
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A court?

Sacred texts deal with spiritual truths not facts.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Jessie Phillips
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Hawk says
quote:
The similarities regarding Jesus are interesting. Yet I'm a little confused regarding how they view Him. Many Surahs claim that Jesus didn't die and rise again, yet was raised up to Allah instead before he died. Yet elsewhere in Surah 19:33 it has Jesus saying (just after birth) "And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life."
I agree that the question of whether Muslims believe in the resurrection or not is a major sticking point.

Mind you, just because Muslims don't believe that Jesus died and rose, doesn't mean that they don't believe there's going to be a general resurrection at the end times. It seems to me that by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, a large part of the point of believing that Jesus rose from the dead is to confirm the hope in the general resurrection at the end times - like what we find in 2 Maccabees 6-7, Daniel 12, and Reveleation 20. The point that Paul makes is that if you deny the general resurrection, you deny the specific resurrection of Jesus - however, he didn't say that to deny the specific resurrection is to deny the general resurrection.

So on that basis, I suspect that Christian and Islamic belief about resurrection might not be quite as far apart as we assume. I'd be surprised to hear that Muslims deny resurrection completely, like the Sadducees did, since a lot of Islamic eschatology would be nonsensical without some sort of resurrection belief, in my opinion.

That said, me being a Prozzie does mean that I think the issue of the way Mary is seen isn't quite as significant as the way the resurrection is seen.

Sir Pellimore says
quote:
As far as I am aware, belief in the Mahdi seems to be based on Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) rather than the Quran. There is a whole Islamic methodology of Hadith verification. I suspect those which purportedly tell of the Mahdi and his coming are not the best authenticated.
My understanding is that there's pretty much nothing about eschatology in the Qu'ran at all. Most of Islamic concept of eschatology comes from the hadith, and different schools of Islam put different emphasis on different hadith. And unless I'm mistaken, a lot of hadith that concern eschatology were heavily influenced by the book of Revelation. Not sure where I got that idea from, though, so I could be wrong.
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3M Matt
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With regards to Mary, I can well see how there might be a lot of common ground between Muslims and Christians.

I wonder though, whether the common ground would be with the catholics or the protestants?

Protestant tradition on Mary is to downplay her as much as possible, in reaction to what is seens as near "4th member of the trinity" status given to her by the Roman Catholics.

The Islamic point of view is a little complicated. Intriguingly, Islam is very fond of the idea of "special people" in a manner akin to Roman Catholic Sainthood. I think Mohammed himself is certainly treated in a manner similar to the Saints in RC.

On the other hand, the Muslim is always keen to state there is "no God but Allah" so that downplays Jesus, and, by extension..Mary.

With regards to Jesus, the really interesting thing is how many fragments of you can piece together from Christian theology.

Imagine if you wrote on a piece of paper the entire Christian theology of Jesus. Then you tear it up into lots of bits...and remove the piece which says "Devine" on it, and the piece which says "saviour and atonement of sin" and then scatter the rest in a random manner.

That's pretty much what Islam's theology on Christ is. It's Christian theology, with the Trinitarian Divinity of Christ ripped out, and the rest scattered hapharzardly.

The intriguing thing is how much Christian theology of Christ you can piece together from the Qu'ran and the hadith, and the gaping hole left when you do is obvious:

Messiah? Check. Born of a virgin? Check. Performer of Miracles? Check. immortal? Check.

Divine? Nope...missing. Died for mankinds sin? nope...missing.

You are left groping for any sense of meaning for Jesus in Islamic theology. It is quite clear his divinity has been ripped from him, and the frayed edges are still evident.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
...

Sir Pellimore says
quote:
As far as I am aware, belief in the Mahdi seems to be based on Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) rather than the Quran. There is a whole Islamic methodology of Hadith verification. I suspect those which purportedly tell of the Mahdi and his coming are not the best authenticated.
My understanding is that there's pretty much nothing about eschatology in the Qu'ran at all. Most of Islamic concept of eschatology comes from the hadith, and different schools of Islam put different emphasis on different hadith. And unless I'm mistaken, a lot of hadith that concern eschatology were heavily influenced by the book of Revelation. Not sure where I got that idea from, though, so I could be wrong.
Sunni and Shi'ite Islam have different collections of Hadith.

There would be a good case for seeing a sort of parallel between the Resurrection and the belief that the Twelfth Shi'ite Islam went into occultation.

The belief in the Mahdi among some Sunnis is, I think, an importation of this concept across from Shi'ite Islam via Sufism.

It is, as far as I am aware, those with some Sufi affiliation who believe in the coming of the Mahdi, whose existence and arrival details are extremely confused.

The way the Mahdi story developed is absolutely fascinating.

As I only have one lifetime I decided not to spend it all in that particular study.


[Big Grin]

Once again, I refuse to take on the mantle of Mahdiologist.

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Mikko
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bms wrote:
quote:
The key to know that Allah and God are not the same is from 1 John 2 and 4 if there was ever any doubt from reading the Bible.
Hang on! Theos (greek) = Deus (latin) = Elohim (hebrew) = Allah (arabic) = God (english).

You might want to argue that Christians (many of whom call 'Theos' 'Allah', because that's how 'Theos' translates into their language) know God better than Muslims (in all humility, of course) - but to say that Allah and God are not the same is like saying that cheese and fromage are not the same, because French cheese isn't quite the same as English cheese. [Big Grin]

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praying for a glimpse of you

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Sir Pellinore
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Actually, in Islam there are the 99 Names of God - each of which describes an aspect of Him. The 100th Name is secret.

Love to see someone attempt a critique. [Big Grin]

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