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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Metropolitan Community Church Worship
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Amiyah
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# 11989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
It does seem though that issues of sexuality etc. must colour greatly the worship / liturgy of the MCC Church, and some will find that uncomfortable, or one tracked.
Look up the thread Eddy. Rev Andy says "In Manchester we don't really talk much about sexuality but try and get on with being a church committed to helping people grow as disciples of the Lord Jesus" and I think that's true. Just because the people gathered are mainly LGBT it doesn't mean that the worship and liturgy are all about the sexuality of the congregation.
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Previously called MirrorMouse
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
But thats not what I said.
I was talking about the roots of the MCC church. Its roots are in the LGBT community they say that. Mainstream churches don't advertise and say there roots are in a group defined by its sexuality.
I can see the problem, and know what christians can do to gays. BUT there are many many churches which welcome gays, have gay officers, or LGBT priests ministers or pasters. These are mainstream churches. The Church of England has LGBT friendly places so do Methodists RCs etc.
Has the MCC church actually anything extra / special to offer in worship or liturgy or is it as has been said a bit of a place where big fish like to swim in a small pool.
I don't know and I'm asking. I'm saying what my concern about a LGBT church is. I also think the tension about different beliefs within the church can be good, and better than splitting off.
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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But - as I said - de facto, most churches are based on the heterosexual orientation. Just because it isn't in their mission statements doesn't make it so!
And finding a dark corner of one of these denominations in which things are fairly tolerant as long as you keep your head down does not - necessarily - improve matters that much.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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beachpsalms
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# 4979
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Posted
It's a privilege thing... the mainstream churches don't need to declare their roots in heterosexual culture, because that culture is so dominant as to be seen as "normal".
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
DJO said:
"And finding a dark corner of one of these denominations in which things are fairly tolerant as long as you keep your head down does not - necessarily - improve matters that much."
Thats not my experience of the Church of England - its not dark corners that are tolerant - they are quite bright colorful places!
Maybe I need to revisit my discomfort with this MCC church thing. It seems I'm not quite putting my finger on the reason for my discomfort.
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dj_ordinaire
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Honestly, I do understand it as well. Of course, a church shouldn't have to define itself in terms of its sexuality! Nevertheless, some Christians have come to the conclusion that this is the best way for them to be able to worship God with integrity. I would suggest that, regardless of their precise worship practices, this means that the MCC fulfill a 'gap in the market' if one wishes to be crude...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
there are many many churches which welcome gays, have gay officers, or LGBT priests ministers or pasters. These are mainstream churches. The Church of England has LGBT friendly places so do Methodists RCs etc.
Has the MCC church actually anything extra / special to offer in worship or liturgy or is it as has been said a bit of a place where big fish like to swim in a small pool.
There aren't that many LGBT-friendly Anglican churches. In this diocese there are only three and they are in the same city. One of MOTR, the other two are bells and smells. So what do you do if you are evangelical and/or you live several miles out of the city?
MCC offers preaching that resonates with LGBT concerns e.g. see http://www.hrc.org/Scripture (not specifically MCC but many of its contributors are)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
The point is Leo that there are three LGBT accepting churches in that one city, and how many MCC churches are there?
Nowadays LGBT people are often quite used to travelling for their jollies.
I'd understand MCC church a bit more if they had something special and distinctive to offer in their worship, like RCs have Mass, Methodists hymn singing, Quakers silence etc.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
The MCC is in the next city but this city has a flourishing LGCM group that meets in my church.
However, even though we are signed up to the inclusive Church agenda, there are some in the congregation who do not agree with this and they certainly wouldn't want lots of sermons related to LGBT issues (I have only mentioned the subject three times, as far as I can remember - twice in the wider context of the problems with the Anglican Communion and once to say that I did NOT think David and Jonathan were lovers).
LGBT Christians who are still in a coming out phase need feeding with the word that speaks to them directly, not just a few crumbs from the rest of us.
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Fr Cuthbert
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# 3953
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Posted
I suspect there are many churches like yours of the sign up to inclusivity but don't talk about it, Leo.
At least the signing up step has been taken.
One hopes that in years to come the necessity for a Metropolitan Community Church to exist will have gone. However, with all breakaway churches they tend to develop as distinct denominations and it is in their self interest to continue to exist. This is especially true of churches with paid clergy - to work towards closure could mean declaring one's self redundant!
I don't know much about the Metropolitan Community Church but I suspect they exist by drawing life from other denominations - hymns, songs, liturgy etc. and indeed members. After all none of its members, i suspect, will be born into that church.
I suspect there will be an emphasis on gender neutral language, and little tradition of their own.
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
I was at my local seminary a few weeks ago, and the worship service was led by a MCC minister. The liturgy was standard mainline Protestant, only the minister (who wore just a stole over her plain clothes), sang the Eucharistic Prayer:
God be with you
And also with you
Lift up your hearts
We lift them to God
Let us give thanks to God
It is right to give God thanks and praise.
To my utter dismay, the Institution was jointly said by the ordained minister and a lay woman.
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CorgiGreta
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# 443
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Posted
I am sure that there are any number of people born into the MCC.
There are members of the MCC who are heterosexual and bisexual. They often breed. Lesbians, with or without male partners, can and do have babies.
In addition, many gay and lesbian parents now adopt, a situation which is akin to cradle membership.
This leads me a question, though. Does the MCC practice infant baptism? In fact, I would be curious as to their baptismal practice generally.
It's too late for me to do reaserch tonight. Perhaps someone has the answer at hand.
Greta
Greta
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I was at my local seminary a few weeks ago, and the worship service was led by a MCC minister. The liturgy was standard mainline Protestant, only the minister (who wore just a stole over her plain clothes), sang the Eucharistic Prayer:
God be with you
And also with you
Lift up your hearts
We lift them to God
Let us give thanks to God
It is right to give God thanks and praise.
To my utter dismay, the Institution was jointly said by the ordained minister and a lay woman.
Why to your utter dismay ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Cuthbert:
I suspect there are many churches like yours of the sign up to inclusivity but don't talk about it, Leo.
At least the signing up step has been taken.
One hopes that in years to come the necessity for a Metropolitan Community Church to exist will have gone. However, with all breakaway churches they tend to develop as distinct denominations and it is in their self interest to continue to exist. This is especially true of churches with paid clergy - to work towards closure could mean declaring one's self redundant!
I don't know much about the Metropolitan Community Church but I suspect they exist by drawing life from other denominations - hymns, songs, liturgy etc. and indeed members. After all none of its members, i suspect, will be born into that church.
I suspect there will be an emphasis on gender neutral language, and little tradition of their own.
The MCC doesn't poach people - it tends to attract people who are so disillusioned with 'mainline' church that they have stopped attending and they go on to find something in MCC that draws them back.I know of people, also, who attend mainline churches but go to MCC in addition, as a sort of 'top us'. This is not unlike some of our young servers who occasionally attend an evangelical independent church for the boost of a large number of similar aged folk or my occasionally attending a solemn mass with all the trimmings.
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I was at my local seminary a few weeks ago, and the worship service was led by a MCC minister. The liturgy was standard mainline Protestant, only the minister (who wore just a stole over her plain clothes), sang the Eucharistic Prayer:
God be with you
And also with you
Lift up your hearts
We lift them to God
Let us give thanks to God
It is right to give God thanks and praise.
To my utter dismay, the Institution was jointly said by the ordained minister and a lay woman.
Why to your utter dismay ?
I'm not a fan of lay presidency, and I can only see a possible justification of it if there is no ordained clergy present. If an ordained minister is present, then she should preside over Holy Communion, that is the role of ordained clergy.
I guess I'm too catholic for the MCC.
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Leo wrote:
" know of people, also, who attend mainline churches but go to MCC in addition, as a sort of 'top us'. This is not unlike some of our young servers who occasionally attend an evangelical independent church for the boost of a large number of similar aged folk or my occasionally attending a solemn mass with all the trimmings."
I can see that, Leo, and I'm grateful for the point myself. LGBT people at times benefit from good safe space. I can see that maybe MCC church worship helps.
But why does it need to be a seperate church to do this. Why a splinter group? Why not a movement within churches or an ecumenical weekday group say like LGCM?
The trouble I'm feeling is that to continue in existence the MCC church has to keep on saying LGBT guys are persecuted by churches so come to us. Thats not actually very friendly to other churches. Its true sometimes but not really in many churches - if people are careful about which they go to.
So I can guess MCC church worship could have a feel of the bunkered in about it.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Eddy, instead of hypothesising about the MCC and its worship/worship experience, why don't you just visit an MCC congregation? I've never felt the need to do so myself, but you are clearly fascinated with the MCC. I think that as Anglicans we are pretty advantaged to have accepting, inclusive clergy and congregations, so there tends to be less felt need for something like the MCC. People I have known who were into the MCC or other predominantly gay ecclesial communities had come either from the RCC or from various evangelical, fundamentalist denoms, so you can understand why they might have left those churches for a more accepting place. Unfortunately, not all Anglican dioceses (even provinces) and parishes are inclusive places, so for some people a move to the local array of Anglican parishes isn't going to be a solution and our liturgical traditions may also feel too foreign and odd for some people who've come out of evangelical sects (I know it can be hard to accept that some people don't find liturgical worship and ceremonial attractive, but that's the fact of the matter). So I think there's a place for the MCC.
[ 24. October 2009, 21:46: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
MCC New York has some fantastic ministries.
They seem to have stuff which emphasises the queer message to the Church - like: Bible Study is described as "A queer reading of the Bible incorporating art, videos, debates & books."
Thats what I was expecting MCC worship to be about and to be proud to be. Say "A queer liturgy for LGBT people" but actually from whats being said it sounds at least in England to be a bit in the corner protestant service.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I was at my local seminary a few weeks ago, and the worship service was led by a MCC minister. The liturgy was standard mainline Protestant, only the minister (who wore just a stole over her plain clothes), sang the Eucharistic Prayer:
God be with you
And also with you
Lift up your hearts
We lift them to God
Let us give thanks to God
It is right to give God thanks and praise.
To my utter dismay, the Institution was jointly said by the ordained minister and a lay woman.
Why to your utter dismay ?
I'm not a fan of lay presidency, and I can only see a possible justification of it if there is no ordained clergy present. If an ordained minister is present, then she should preside over Holy Communion, that is the role of ordained clergy.
I guess I'm too catholic for the MCC.
I guess that I thought saying it with the priest meant it wasn't lay presidency - just a bit odd.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Eddy, I imagine there is greater diversity of worship styles in the MCC in the States than in the UK. While that might seem self-evident based on the larger population of the US and the fact that the MCC is much better established here, I think the congregational autonomy thing may really be what is at work. Actually I understand that some MCC congos in the US are fairly liturgical and I believe this would be true of the Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, even though it's actually no longer MCC, having left the denom and affiliated with the United Church of Christ. That also brings up the question of baptismal practice again, since the UCC normally practise paedobaptism.
I think there'd be little point in the MCC copying Anglican liturgy and ceremonial, since anyone attracted to Anglican liturgy could usually (though not always or everywhere) find an inclusive Anglican parish.
Perhaps the MCC has also been less successful in the UK due to the greater apathy and contempt toward Christianity by so many in the UK, in contrast to the greater number of believers in the USA.
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Amiyah
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# 11989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Eddy, instead of hypothesising about the MCC and its worship/worship experience, why don't you just visit an MCC congregation?
I couldn't agree more. The current thread would seem to be a remarkably inefficient and profitless way to explore/research the worship of the MCC. Eddy presents hypotheses/makes assertions based on no experience of the church, and lots of people who have actually been to the MCC or at least know something about it post (often) to disagree with that assertion/hypothesis. Just as Eddy can't quite put his finger on what disquiets him about the MCC whilst finding it fascinating, I can't put my finger on why the pattern of this thread is so irritating to me, yet I can't stop reading it.
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Previously called MirrorMouse
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Wottinger
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# 13176
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Posted
Some time ago MCC worshipped in our building on a weekly basis. I attended and preached a few times.
They were friendly and relaxed in worship. I think the style of their gatherings will depend a lot on the pastor, and key leaders. There is no fixed liturgy.
With us they were pretty mainstream in style. Music was very important to them, and seemed to be a significant part of their liturgy preparation. Because of having no fixed liturgy they could draw on a variety of sources - and Iona, Common Worship and one or two others seemed to crop up often.
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Fr Cuthbert
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# 3953
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Posted
I have been thinking about liturgy, LGBT issues and churches, and the MCC.
It's interesting that MCC has no fixed liturgy or style. Most churches do. Even if there is not a suggested liturgy there are often guidelines, or styles. The fact that MCC draws on other churches so much, and has no definite house style of its own suggests to me it is more a gathering of varied LGBT people for worship than a church in the traditional sense.
This interesting church is very interesting. Here within their gatherings they have differing styles from time to time, reflecting the different origins of the members. It suggests that the LGBT people and others who are members go for something extra to their own churches / denominations which they attend regularly. I can see this and would support this far more than breaking away and setting up a small denomination by itself such as MCC. After all to exist MCC as a denomination would deliberately draw in people from other churches and not encourage attendance or giving to churches other than themselves.
The Auckland church seems more like a movement, which owns to draw from different traditions and welcomes them. Interestingly this Christian Community left MCC because they felt they were being pushed too hard down one approach to church order, and wished to be a freer more open group than MCC.
My current thought is that MCC clearly lacks liturgical identity.
The Auckland church does not claim to be a seperate denomination and understandably encourages clergy of many churches to come and celebrate their liturgy within it.
The difference between the two groups may appear at first subtle but I suspect it is a profound difference.
[ 29. October 2009, 18:39: Message edited by: Fr Cuthbert ]
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Fr Cuthbert writes
quote:
My current thought is that MCC clearly lacks liturgical identity.
I think thats very true because they seem to vary from church to church as to what they do. They are a congregational style church, led its being said by So if you went from one to another there isnt much except the AIDS candle thing which would identify there worship as being of the same church.
Now I guess some would say that about the C of E, but actually I reckon most C of E use Common Worship and have a hymn book that people know as being C of E.
PS MCC Nottingham is in 'Queens Walk' - makes me wonder what other addresses fit with the church thats in them ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Oremus
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# 13853
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Posted
It makes me wonder why this Auckland gay Church feels the need to have a seperate service why they meet in what is clearly a very "inclusive" church which would surely welcome them to its regular services.
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oremus:
It makes me wonder why this Auckland gay Church feels the need to have a seperate service why they meet in what is clearly a very "inclusive" church which would surely welcome them to its regular services.
(tangent alert)
I think that's an interesting point. It reminds me of a somewhat similar situation with London's 'black' pentecostal churches. Many were established many years ago and I have no problem with them. But there are still small breakaways that start-up and meet outside of any (black or white) denominational links. In London, many of the 'white' denominations have black congregations where all are welcome. So why the need to start up your own group?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Because it's more fun being a big fish in yer own small pond, rather than a small fish in someone else's bigger pond?
I cast no nasturtiums........but that is the impression given by some of the leaders of these breakaway groups.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
I agree with Bishops Finger on this one. Some people move from a bigger church to a smaller one to be a big fish, if you get me.
It does seem from what Longmire wrote earlier that the MCC church he knows about has a group of big fish in its little pond.
Sometimes I think those who failed to become ministers or priests in one church move to another to get what they want.
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
I agree, too. Although there is sometimes the fact that the 'welcoming' church is not welcoming. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
It does seem that the MCC church uses lots of different styles in their worship and activity. This MCC church offers "programs exploring varied paths to the holy."
Hindu Tantra is being taught. The MCC church encourages this way, saying it is "a set of principles, practices, and attitudes that include the mind, heart, and whole body on the path to enlightenment. Far more than a way to improve your sex life, Tantra offers us the potential of experiencing our erotic energy as spiritual "rocket fuel"!"
Its interesting how they connect sex life and spirituality. Perhaps this is a special contribution they are making to the church?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Hmm. Sounds a bit like our old friends the Agapemonites, Hugh Prince, Smyth-Pigott et al......
....and look what happened to them!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Can u say a bit more on that topic Bishop's Finger - what did happen to them ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It seems in this MCC church set up anything goes and you can wear what you like, do what you like in worship, say what you like, as long as you are gay friendly! (Which I think churches should be, of course)
Maybe theMCC Church could develop along there path and they could become an inter faith gay church, that would be a very interesting sign to offer.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
The Agapemonites all died out........
Here's what Wikipedia has to say (usual disclaimers apply):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agapemonites
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Thats a interesting group Bishops Finger, you certainly have a wide knowledge. I guess there are groups like that that fade away thru time and it could be some churches of today like the URC Church or MCC church fade away soon.
I was wondering about the MCC church and if they have special Gay Saints or LGBT saints in their Kalendars. I mean like Harvey Milk or so on, or do they just keep a watered down church Kalendar, or maybe not at all as they are mainly protestant in worship and style.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I hardly think you can draw any sort of comparison between the MCC and the Agapemonites! I doubt the MCC is going anywhere anytime soon in the USA at least. I could imagine that at some point toward the end of the present century they might merge with the United Church of Christ, which by then may have also been merged with the Disciples of Christ. Or perhaps as United Methodists continue to evolve, the MCC will merge with the UMs (though I doubt it because of their quite different polities; a merger with the UCC would be far more likely). However, until all institutional discrimination against GLBT persons in the USA substantially ends, I think you'll see a continuing MCC presence.
Eddy, I can't get over a sense that you look at the MCC as some sort of freak phenomenon to be studied as a curiosity, rather than as a legitimate Christian church. I'm an Anglican, but I find your tone regarding the MCC offensive.
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Thats not fair LSK and I'm sorry you think that. As a gay man I wouldnt want MCC church'[s mission to ber devalued. I am interested in them and what Gay christians bring to worship.
I don't patronise them.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
It was I who compared the MCC with the Agapemonites, though I did so with my tongue firmly in my cheek!
Personally, I can see that the MCC (however it organises itself and its liturgy) will probably have a part to play in the life of the Church at large for many years to come......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
I think thats true BF and thats why I wish they had a bit more liturgy to offer the church and some more distinctiveness. This would help show LGBT have something to give the church. As it is they seem to draw on other folk, and be stuck in a protestant style rut.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I'm no lover of the protestant hymn sandwich. Yet I would repudiate the idea that ecclesial communities like the MCC are "stuck in a protestant style rut". It's not a rut for them; it's the way they do church. They didn't develop from a liturgical church tradition but from a very non-liturgical one.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Eddy
Shipmate
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Posted
LSK you do seem to jump on my posts on this topic.
I admire many protestant style worship - like some of the Iona stuff, or some Reformed stuff in a modern vein. But some, and not all, I reckon is stuck in a rut, just like some Anglican stuff is, just like some RC or Anglo C stuff is.
I ain't read anything here that suggests MCC church have special offering to make in the field of liturgy. They draw on others it seems. Thats OK but it does ometimes I get stuck in a rut.
LGBT folk often have something to contribute to art, literature etc... what to liturgy I ask. MCC church does not provide the answer.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
One problem,I think, is that in most larger cities the more liturgically and artistically oriented gay folk would go to an Anglican church (or in the USA also to a parish of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). I'm afraid the cream has already been skimmed off the top by the time the MCC gets its constituency.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
OK, folks, there has been an unpleasant undertone in the last few posts that bears pointing out. This would be a good time to remind everyone that Commandment 5 says "Don't easily offend, don't be easily offended." Mark and inwardly digest that, please.
Eddy, I've reread all 156 posts on this thread and can safely say that at least half a dozen different people have asked you the same question: If you are curious about the MCC church, why don't you pay them a visit? I would have hoped that by now it would be clear to you that this thread is not going to satisfy your curiosity about the MCC. A few people with actual experience of that denomination have helpfully passed through this conversation over the last few months, but they have moved on, and at any rate, even their expertise can't take the place of the direct experience of worship.
And while civil debate is expected in Eccles, I can honestly understand how others can become a bit exasperated at the seeming fruitlessness of this thread.
Finally, your question about whether LGBT folk have a particular contribution to make to liturgy may be one that's worthy of its own thread. Feel free to start one.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
[ 15. December 2009, 05:39: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Thats a really helpful comment Mamacita, thanks. It has made me think about my posts here on the MCC church. I take the point about going along and I am hoping to go to there East London branch sometime over the holiday season. I'll find out worship times and directions and try to get a mate or two to go with me.
But I still am not sure why its necessary to visit a church before you can talk about it and its ways and outlook. There seem plenty of folk her who give opinions but dont go to the churches they go on about. In fact some of the comments are really strong.
If you feel strongly about something it can be difficult to put it in the right words. If I offend on this MCC church discussion sorry.
What intrigues me is that worship forms a church doesnt it - like the Mass or the style is how some people identify a church, but that does not seem to be true for the MCC church. That has made me you see wonder and ask what forms and identifies this church then. I wondered about sexuality, and whether the LGBT make up gives it a special and distinctive feel which shows something to the bigger church.
I do think you see that 'Queer lifestyle' may have something to give to the church, and challenge too, and maybe one area is in liturgy and worship. I need to think more on this one.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I was wondering on the Church Calendar thread about MCC and Harvey Milk.
Does anyone know which Calendar the MCC church keeps? I guess its just a simple western one. and does it have its own heroes that it remembers collectively? Or maybe, being a protestant church it doesnt bother with saints.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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RevAndy
Apprentice
# 4017
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Posted
Hi folks,
I haven't been following this discussion - life is too short - but we had an email from someone who asked us to contribute again so here goes.
I think the basic inability to comprehend MCC comes from a broadly Anglican background. I've experienced this again and again over my 20 years as an MCC minister and have never quite understood why. Roman Catholics and Protestants generally seem to find it easier to understand us than Anglicans. Maybe there is a PhD thesis there. It's something to do with an attitude about "proper churches" and, presumably "improper" ones.
As I believe I have already said, MCC worship style varies from congregation to congregation and, within our larger churches, from service to service (with a variety of styles offered on a Sunday). We are by no means unique in this; look at the URC. In Manchester we meet in one URC church with a distinctive style best described as "thoughtful Presbyterian" the neighbouring URC - less than a mile away - has a totally different style which I can't quite define but is less structured. Yet they are served by the same minister and are part of the same denomination.
So, to the questions which seem to be exercising some of your minds....
What's distinctive about MCC's worship.
I'm not sure. I'm not sure what's distinctive about Baptist worship (it varies from charismatic evangelical to minister led liberal lectures). I'm not that sure what is distinctive about Anglican worship as in Manchester one can attend "catholic" style CofE which doesn't allow women priests, "catholic" style which does, "pentecostal" style and "liberal" style. (all within a few square miles) They are all Anglican but certainly all don't use the same liturgical resources; indeed the catholic style congregations seem to borrow material from another Communion.
Hallmarks of our worship would be around the shared ministry of clergy and laity, the Eucharist being the main Sunday service, and all being welcomed to receive Holy Communion. I am sure, however, that these hallmarks are common to many denominations.
Many, but not all, MCCs light a candle as an aid to prayer and reflection for people living with or affected by HIV and AIDS, many use gender balanced language about humanity and God (but not all do this about God), many, but not all, offer a personal prayer of blessing at Holy Communion.
There is a "family resemblance" around MCC worship but it's difficult to define and, ultimately, doesn't matter. Unlike other churches we don't really worry too much if we worship in different ways. My own congregation has been described as a blend of "evangelical exuberance" and "catholic order". The describer was an Anglican priest so I am not totally sure what he meant!
Breakaway Church....
Fr Cuthbert is concerned about "breakaway" churches, their long term future and assumes that MCC actively poaches people. He also assumes we don't have biological growth.
There is a point about breakaway churches and I presume that one day the Methodists will return to the Anglicans, and the Anglicans to the Catholics who will, of course, reunite with the Orthodox:)
MCC didn't really break away from anything else. Wesley founded an Anglican society but the "break" happened when he ordained ministers because the bishops wouldn't ordain his people. The CofE doesn't see itself as a "breakaway" church but, being raised as a Catholic, I was taught a different history.......
MCC was founded to offer a church home to all who felt excluded and to reach those the other churches weren't interested in. Our founder, Troy, had been ordained as a Pentecostal minister but had been out of ministry for several years prior to founding the first MCC congregation in LA in 1968. He simply put an advert in a paper and waited to see who showed up - 12 did. Most had church backgrounds but didn't attend their churches anymore because of their sexuality, others were seekers and had not made a Christian commitment.
Growth
We don't poach people, or preach about the unfriendliness of other churches (we don't really need to even if we wanted to!).
We open our doors, advertise through the web, gay press, and pride festivals as well as invite people through personal contact. We welcome those who come along and seek to integrate them into our life and ministry as they return and become regulars.
Some have backgrounds in other Christian churches; many have no real church involvement before MCC, a significant minority in my own congregation have come to faith in the Lord through our ministry either from no faith background or from Islam.
The truth is that often the other Christian churches really help us grow. We saw a lot of people last year come along to us, all over the UK, exasperated by the debate in the Anglican Communion. They may not have been regular worshippers at Anglican churches but were increasingly fed up with the debate about our right to be Christian within that church. Benedict only has to say something silly about us for more people to find us, or other accepting churches, and conclude that working for change in the established churches is not a battle they want to fight.
We do have a small amount of biological growth through same sex parenting, adoption, children from previous relationships and from our heterosexual members. It would be fair to say, however, that we have significantly less children than most other denominations.
To Stay or Go
There has been a little undercurrent about whether it is "right" to found a church around an issue of human sexuality. Leaving aside whether the CofE was founded on issues of Henry VIII's marital difficulties, I don't think it any more odd than founding a church on the basis of a particular view of baptism, of the connection between Church and State or on race. It's a fact of life and whether it's right or wrong is, ultimately, a fruitless question.
There is a debate within the Christian lgbt community about whether we should stay within traditional churches to work for change or whether such work is so difficult, painful and debilitating that it's not worth the struggle (and really why should "we" work to change "your" mind?). Interestingly the current CEO of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement is an MCC pastor.
The debate mirrors that of black people and the foundation of black-led churches. I wonder if those who wonder about the contribution of MCC to the wider Church's liturgical life are also interested in the contribution of the Black Led churches in the UK.
Baptism
Someone asked about our baptismal practice. Like the URC it's varied from congregation to congregation. Many pastors will baptise infants, a few prefer to offer a dedication service. Some MCC pastors will re-baptise a person who requests it; I won't. Increasingly adult baptism (either by pouring or immersion) is offered to those who have come to faith in Christ through our ministry.
Fish and Ponds and Bullying Pastors
MCC attracts all sort of people; occasionally they offer us their, no doubt well thought out, views on our worship. Often they want us to become a mirror of where they have been (but left).
We find it rather rude for a visitor to comment about what they think we do wrong; if I went to a Catholic church and said to the priest that I didn't like those prayers to Our Lady, or went to a Baptist church and said I disagreed with the concept of adult baptism or non-liturgical worship I'd be very politely told to find somewhere else to worship!
It's not happened to us in Manchester for a long time (that isn't an invitation!) but when it happened it always puzzled us that a visitor (invariably one who *knew* what the "right" way to do church was) felt they were entitled to comment and then felt annoyed if we didn't then march to their beat. No doubt that lays us open to accusations of being, as Longmire noted, as being bullies, but we will work hard not to sink under the weight of the disappointment.
Those who offer themselves for training for ordained ministry in MCC have to go through a rigorous selection and training process and we are very wary of those who have been rejected by other communions. The system isn't perfect and we make mistakes.
I hope this, over-long, post helps with some of your questions and perceptions, but I am tempted to think that for some the joy is the questioning not the answers.
Andy Braunston
MCC Manchester
www.mccmanchester.co.uk
Posts: 13 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
Yes, a long and rather verbose post, yet very informative, but not, for me, in the way intended.
Some curious phrases:
"a broadly Anglican background" meaning?
"The describer was an Anglican priest so I am not totally sure what he meant" Because Anglican priests are always incomprehensible?
One suspects that the MCC minister has problems with Anglicans - me thinks he protesteth too much about Anglicans.
"MCC didn't really break away from anything else." Really - they broke away from mainstream churches and their founder broke away from his Pentecostal church.
"interested in the contribution of the Black Led churches in the UK. " There is far more interest in black led churches and their contribution than there is in churches like MCC. This area has been, and continues to be, well researched. (To name Hollenweger as just one researcher in this area).
"We find it rather rude for a visitor to comment about what they think we do wrong" We the royal (Queen's) we...or is the post the product of more than one person?
Why is it rude for a visitor to comment on what they found uncomfortable or 'wrong'? The Mystery Worshipper project gives positives and negatives about visits. I'd have thought such comments were helpful.
It is sad that MCC seem to base so much on what they are not, rather than a more positive approach. Having said which, the MCC minister does helpfully show the doctrinal and liturgical variety of MCC churches, and shows clearly that MCC liturgy is derivative rather than creative.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
I also appreciated RevAndy's return to the conversation. A few reactions to LongMire's post, off the top of my head:
quote:
Originally posted by Long Mire:
One suspects that the MCC minister has problems with Anglicans - me thinks he protesteth too much about Anglicans.
I think it's more the situation that RevAndy was responding to questions posed (for the most part) by Anglicans, in an Anglican context.
quote:
"MCC didn't really break away from anything else." Really - they broke away from mainstream churches and their founder broke away from his Pentecostal church.
If I understand it correctly, the distinction is that MCC did not have its roots in a wholesale break (with entire congregations or groups of people who were already associated) from a previous denomination. Myriad people coming together from different backgrounds is quite a different phenomenon from, say, Wesley's followers moving from the C of E to Methodism, or (in a more modern context) a diocese deciding to realign itself with the Southern Cone. Those would be more accurately described as breakaways.
quote:
Why is it rude for a visitor to comment on what they found uncomfortable or 'wrong'?
I suppose this depends entirely on the visitor and the tone and nature of the comment. Personally, I would find a comment like "I couldn't hear the lectors" or "no one greeted me" to be constructive feedback; "I don't like the liturgy" -- not so much. It seemed to me that RevAndy had a particular experience or experiences in mind when writing the post above.
quote:
It is sad that MCC seem to base so much on what they are not, rather than a more positive approach.
Again, the poster was writing specifically in response to several questions and statements from members of this community (not all of which were especially friendly).
quote:
Having said which, the MCC minister does helpfully show the doctrinal and liturgical variety of MCC churches...
Yes, which I think we agree was very helpful.
quote:
... and shows clearly that MCC liturgy is derivative rather than creative.
Well, I think one could make a case that most liturgy is derivative, but that's probably a topic for another thread.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
I've been thinking further on this interesting topic and the discussion so far.
From what is being said MCC is not particularly a liturgical church. By this I mean it has no fixed liturgy and local congregations can do as they please.
Nor, would it seem to be a church united in its doctrines. There is no unifying oversight doctrinally it would seem. By this I mean in methodism or Anglicanism or even in Orthodoxy or catholicism there is an overseeing body which guards doctrines. (And I know, of course, that local churches do all sorts of things!)
Yes, MCC lies in its teaching within Protestantism, but actually its teachings also appear to vary from congregation to congregation. Some churches will re-baptise. Others will not. Some perform blessings of three-somes, others do not. Many have new age style teachings, some move towards a more traditional protestant doctrinal position. Some profess the uniqueness of Christ, others do not.
This leads me to think that the uniting factor is gay or lesbian people wanting to meet in a relaxed religious or quasi religious setting, where a variety of beliefs and practices can be held together. I can see the merit in this. Whether or not it is 'church' as that term has been traditionally know is, perhaps, open to question. I would see it more as a movement. This explains the 'clubby' nature of MCC as I experienced it.
Given this fringe nature of MCC the question of liturgy is especially interesting, if one pursues it from the line - What have mainstream churches to learn from fringe liturgies or gatherings of christians and others on the boundaries. Or to be more specific, what have mainstream churches to learn, in terms of liturgy, from MCC? It would be interesting to have comment on this question from MCC memebrs.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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