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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: So why isn't the Christian life a joy?
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
This would have been a tangent on the original thread, so I'll post it here.
This quote from that thread has got me thinking:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Yes younger [monks] may resent older ones coming in, just like some long time Christians resent late life converts who "got to screw around first." The attitude betrays a dislike of the chosen life. If the chosen life is a joy, the ones who started young would not resent but instead feel sorry for those who came late in life and missed out on so many joyful years.
Now, I don't think I'm alone in resenting those who "got the call" much later in life than me. It certainly does feel like they got to have their fun and be Saved while I had to knuckle down and behave myself almost from the start. I've found myself sometimes refusing to evangelise friends, because I feel that if I succeeded I would make their lives worse. But that can't be right, can it?
So why isn't the Christian Life a joy for all those who live it? Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge through the lonely streets of faithfulness while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing on the avenues of fun and jollity?
Is there anything that can be done to make the Christian Life more joyful? Or is hoping against hope that one day church, charity and chastity will be joyful to us in and of themselves all we can do?
[ 10. October 2009, 01:05: Message edited by: RooK ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533
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Posted
Not being suckered into thinking the forbidden things are actually worthwhile?
It seems a bit like going "I really envied my childhood friends, who hadn't been told by their parents that eating random fungi, licking lead paint, and playing with the asbestos in the ceiling was a bad idea".
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Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly
Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
One of the most common views of the "Christian Life" is that it's entirely negative. By "negative" I don't mean "bad" but rather "defined by what it isn't rather than what it is". And a lifestyle that's primarily defined by bans and restrictions doesn't sound like much fun.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
It seems a bit like going "I really envied my childhood friends, who hadn't been told by their parents that eating random fungi, licking lead paint, and playing with the asbestos in the ceiling was a bad idea".
Not really. After all, those things pretty quickly show their negative effects.
To put it another way, if the vast majority of people I saw eating random fungi, licking lead paint and playing with asbestos showed no sign of ill effects (even many years later) and reported that they enjoyed every second of it, I'd be a lot less happy about not being allowed to do them myself.
However, the main thrust of my OP does not concern that. Even if all the things we are told to eschew were demonstrably and obviously bad for us, it wouldn't answer the question of why the Christian Life isn't actually a joy. Even (especially) if it's the best life there is, why is it so fucking dull?
Where's the joy?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is there anything that can be done to make the Christian Life more joyful?
To take one's selfishness and throw it in the garbage. To seek and will for the benefit of the other, and not for one's own benefit.
Are you still wondering why many people aren't living joyfully as Christians?
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
And a lifestyle that's primarily defined by bans and restrictions doesn't sound like much fun.
Quite so.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
I think I'd turn it round. What's so Christian about a dull life? We can do whatever we like as far as God is concerned. It's only Christians who have it in their heads that it's their role in life to lay down the Christian law that creates this impression. Why listen?
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Fred Clark at Slacktivist had a good post about the abstemious Christian life in general and C. S. Lewis' reaction to American Christians coming after his beer in particular. It's a fairly quick and amusing read.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge through the lonely streets of faithfulness while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing on the avenues of fun and jollity?
Just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, exactly which activities is it that you resent not being allowed to join in with?
Posts: 442 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Perhaps the_raptor is on to something when tracing this back to childhood lessons. The first lesson the Church usually teaches youngsters is that wearing stiff clothes in a stuffy room listening to an old man drone on in incomprehensibly Elizabethan-style English is a better use of a day out of school than playing with their friends. Even the dullest kid will see this as grownups-trying-to-make-work-sound-like-fun.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, exactly which activities is it that you resent not being allowed to join in with?
I'm not naming specifics because it's not so much about what I resent not having done as why the Christian Life has nothing on offer with which to replace them. It's full of "Thou Shalt Not"s with no "Thou Shalt"s to take their place.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
If you don't say anything about it Marvin, it's not easy for us to see what the party going on over the road actually is.
My life isn't a total joy, but none of the things I would like to do but currently don't are things that are prevented by Christianity. They are things like having more friends, bringing up a family, a more exciting job which circumstances or my own capabilities prevent.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
Marvin, there is an implicit assumption in your post that the Christian life is less fun because of "thou shalt not" types of strictures. I believe that such an assumption can be true in only two ways:
1) When one accepts definitions of the Christian life that include narrow definitions of appropriate behavior (generally with regard to sexuality but also in other areas). The solution here is to find a church community that does not define the Christian life in this manner.
2) When one accepts the assertion that immoral behavior that hurts oneself or others is fun.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
One of the notes of the third order of the Society of St Francis is 'joy'. As someone who struggles with depression, it's one I find quite challenging, though thankfully it is also noted that it is a gift from God.
Yes, all too often Christians come across as dull but that's not how it should be. Though it's not easy either and one of the things that annoys me is the 'Christians must be happy all the time' school of thought.
There is also the fact that 'having a conscience is a bad idea' becuase it means you do some of the stuff that needs doing and others can't be bothered to do. Though one can do that joyfully.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Though it's not easy either and one of the things that annoys me is the 'Christians must be happy all the time' school of thought.
Joy isn't the same with being happy though. The joy the Holy Spirit's presence brings can co-exist with sorrow (again, a gift of the Holy Spirit, to be sorrowful for the pain of the world) and it's not to be confused with "being happy" sentimentalism in my view.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Interesting. From my atheist/Humanist point of view, I think I'd say that I resent the fact that I didn't have the truth, the facts, the realisation that the God idea was simply a human idea at a much, much younger age. I wish I had had a much longer period of my life not still maintaining the small place in my mind which contained the power/force/something 'out there' idea.
However, I have never wasted time regretting what was not and am delighted that I think I have a good few years left to thoroughly enjoy my Humanist/atheist position. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Crœsos:
Thank you for that marvelous Slacktavist link!
You know, I don't "drink* smoke or chew, or go with girls that do", and I don't know how much I can add to the thread, mostly because as usual I'm really pressed for time but just can't help myself. (* - much, that is - everything in moderation)
The others are right, when you stand looking over the fence at where you are forbidden to go, you are not looking into, much less enjoying, the wide pasture of beauty and freedom that is the love and grace and goodness and beauty of communion with God and one another.
The joy that I've had since my conversion, a joy that trancends whether I'm happy or not at a given time, makes the time I spent in bondage absolutely loathsome to me - I wouldn't go back for the trillion bucks our "saviors" in Washington just shoveled out the door. I mean that with all my heart.
He loves me. Really loves me. Deeply truly, even tragically; more perfectly and effectively than any parent or any lover ever could. I'm free, really free, and I cannot explain how wonderful that is.
He saved me from myself. Unbidden, He took the initiative to confront me, arrest me even, and crush the Hell out of me. It was the worst thing I've ever been through (so far). But worth every second and 10 times more if that's what I'd needed.
I hope you catch it, my friend. Then maybe His love will flow from you and infect someone else (not that it hasn't Marvin, I most always enjoy your posts).
Blessings and a ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Tom
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Marvin, there is an implicit assumption in your post that the Christian life is less fun because of "thou shalt not" types of strictures. I believe that such an assumption can be true in only two ways:
1) When one accepts definitions of the Christian life that include narrow definitions of appropriate behavior (generally with regard to sexuality but also in other areas). The solution here is to find a church community that does not define the Christian life in this manner.
2) When one accepts the assertion that immoral behavior that hurts oneself or others is fun.
Speaking of assumptions, I'm not entirely sure it can be assumed that "immoral behavior" must necessarily "hurt[] oneself or others". By way of example, certain Christian sects regard the use of contraception as immoral, even for sex that is otherwise considered okay (i.e. with your church-approved spouse). I don't see how this would necessarily hurt either the couple involved or anyone else. Ditto for mule breeding or mixed fabrics. The criteria for "immorality" don't seem to require harm to either the immoral or others.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Waterchaser
Shipmate
# 11005
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Posted
What's the difference between Joy and Happyness?
Often people say that Joy is deeper than happiness which I get at one level; but does Joy include happiness or is it totally distinct from happyness. I think I tend to read passages that talk about joy eg 1 Peter that talks about joy unspeakable as being about happyness even if they are talking about a happyness that coexists with suffering and sorrow.
By the way I think the Christian Life is joyful (at least in terms of how I understand joy) in terms of the fact that I find it easier to be happy for "no reason" other than being alive and well (which actually is a pretty big deal!) than before I was a Christian; and more aware and thankful of the reasons to be happy in my life. And I love some of the things we do as Christians - praying for people, deep friendships, worshipping, and sometimes even being kind to other people (this is harder for me - conversly my wife finds being kind to people easier but finds other aspects of the christian life harder).
Posts: 310 | From: Luton, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
quote:
So why isn't the Christian Life a joy for all those who live it?
Can't you accept that the degree of joy in life is often the result of forces and events that have nothing to do with religion? And has anyone tried to compare the average joy quotient of various groups? I suspect it will vary more by character traits.
One suggestion, though. A possible problem with any religion is that people may be less likely to find there real selves. I know this sounds corny, and it doesn't just apply to religion. But I think it's an obvious trap.
To take an obvious example: If a person is brought up in an environment in which homosexuality is not stigmatised, they will find it easier to discover their sexuality if they are in fact gay. In my case, the attempt to remain faithful is deeply at odds with my basically skeptical character. And I wasn't a totally joyful christian because, to be honest, I didn't believe half of it. Not really.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Makepiece
Shipmate
# 10454
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Posted
I'm reminded of the words 'those who wait on the Lord will soar as on the wings of eagles' because of course the Lord is 'my strength and my song'. I personally find forgiveness of sin much more joyful than sin itself.
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Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...
Posts: 938 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kid Who Cracked
Shipmate
# 13963
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
To take an obvious example: If a person is brought up in an environment in which homosexuality is not stigmatised, they will find it easier to discover their sexuality if they are in fact gay. In my case, the attempt to remain faithful is deeply at odds with my basically skeptical character. And I wasn't a totally joyful christian because, to be honest, I didn't believe half of it. Not really.
I think this is how I feel about it now. I feel like I have to shove my mind into some form of orthodoxy even though it doesn't seem to fit.
I think a lot of the problem (like others have said) is a focus on what you can't do. I have a guilt complex to this day, possibly because of "do not" religion, that's actually brought many suicidal thoughts. Much of my younger days was overshadowed with the belief that most people were going to burn forever, and it's dang near impossible to stay happy with that mindset.
Posts: 532 | From: Texas | Registered: Jul 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Many Christian events are cheerful, even joyful - youth group stuff, choirs or singers who "get it together", potluck suppers in a community. It is quite possible for a Eucharist service to be joyful in a different sense - the joy of realising that you are in the Presence or that the community is joined as one in the worship, even if the activity is solemnly and politely done.
But many Christian activities are joyless, because there are too many people finding fault, or shushing, or demanding rigorous attention to a program or timetable that doesn't actually matter, or in some other way forcing us to behave in a negative or confined manner for no real purpose.
Take a simple one: it is possible to say a Grace before a meal that is a joyful affirmation of our thanks to God, or it is possible (and more common) to shut down the whole process, while someone stumbles through a "few" (ha!) words of something that might appear to be an address to God, except that it is a sermon on proper behaviour or a desperate desire to have said the right phrases that will be approved by the self-appointed Powers-That-Be in the congo.
We've got into the habit of thinking that anything that might be happy is to be frowned upon, as not serious enough to honour God.
Good Heavens, even a funeral should have aspects of joy, when we think of someone going to "a Better Place"!
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
When I started going back to church, there was a member of the congregation who asserted that being a Christian was not "pie in the sky when you die" but "Steak on a plate while you wait". Unfortunately, he never gave any concrete examples of what the "steak" was and I was too new to dare to ask.
(Since then, when someone asked what I'd got from the parable of the workers in the vineyard, I could answer that I'd obviously been getting up at the ungodly hour of 10 o'clock of a Sunday for no good reason and would have got exactly the same reward for dropping in on church on my ninety-ninth birthday; but again, no-one could explain why that wasn't a perfectly valid interpretation and why being a faithful churchgoer was a good idea.)
Just see what you'd be missing if you just went ahead and did exactly what you wanted to.
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Some Quaker shalts, which I've found helpful:
- Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of love and truth in your hearts.
- Take time to learn about other people's experiences of the Light.... Appreciate that doubt and questioning can also lead to spiritual growth and to a greater awareness of the Light that is in us all.
- Spiritual learning continues throughout life, and often in unexpected ways. There is inspiration to be found all around us, in the natural world, in the sciences and arts, in our work and friendships, in our sorrows as well as in our joys. ...
- Be honest with yourself. What unpalatable truths might you be evading? When you recognise your shortcomings, do not let that discourage you....
- Live adventurously. ....walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in every one.
Full text here
However, there is a kind of fundamental problem with finding Joy in life because, as you know, shit happens. Some people find that the Zen Strawberry summarises the situation beautifully.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I've been ruminating on this question off and on since the OP, and it seems to me that there's not a WHOLE lot of difference between the everyday activities of the Christian and the non-Chritsian, unless you belong to a particularly strict form of Christianity that outlaws a lot of "worldly" activities. Even then, I would say 85% of your day's activities are probably the same as that of any "worldly" person -- you go to your job, you interact with family and friends and co-workers, you do whatever it is you do for leisure and whatever it is you do to make the world a bit better place ... and you eat your meals and your sleep.
With the exception of how you spend your leisure time (I"ll get to that in a minute) it doesn't seem to me that the actual daily activities would be that much different -- presumably the difference between the Christian and the non-Christian would be the spirit or attitude with which you do them. One would hope that ideally, all other things being equal, the Christian would have more sense of inner peace, purpose, a belief in a loving God, that would give more overall joy to these activities. One's relationships might be a bit more whole and healthy if one were following Christian principles, and hopefully underneath it all would be a sense that there is a God who cares for you and your life is all part of some bigger plan.
The problem, of course, is the "all other things being equal," which they're not. I can't relate to the statement in the OP because I find the Christian life extremely joyful, but to be absolutley honest, I was blessed with a cheerful, optimistic outlook and a relatively trouble-free life (so far), so I'd probably also be a fairly happy non-Christian, if that were the path I'd chosen. I suspect a person who is unhappy in their Christianity would probably be a fairly unhappy atheist too. It might be more relevant to look at it the way C.S. Lewis suggested we look at moral goodness: not to ask if Christian A is happier than non-Christian B, since there are all kinds of other factors we can't know about affecting A's and B's levels of happiness, but to ask whether A is happier as a Christian than A would be if s/he weren't a Christian. I think the answer to that ought to be yes, and if not, there is probably something wrong with A's Christianity, but you'd have to look at it over a whole lifetime with a lot of factors considered, and really, we can't ever know for sure how our lives WOULD have turned out if we'd chosen another direction.
The one big difference in terms of how Christians and non-Christians spend their time is probably how they spend leisure time. I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life. Christians might spend some of their free time in church and some more of it involved in service to the community (though many non-Christians would do the latter as well), and if those things are making the Christian unhappy, s/he might be going to the wrong church or doing the wrong sort of service.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
I think that we get what we practice. If we practice regret for all the things that could have been, then we get a life of regret.
I've seen regret wreck havoc on people's lives; I know two people who practice regret to such an extent that they spend most of their time regretting the things that they cannot have because they made the opposite choice.
The best I can muster in Purgatory (rather than Hell) is grow up and learn to smell the roses. Better yet, go visit someone who has had limits unwillingly placed on them by life circumstances and then thank God - or the atheist stars - that you can walk, talk, get your own meals or do your own laundry. Don't wait until you can't do these things to say 'I wish I knew then what I know now.'
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Quoting from a post some years ago on the Ship
quote:
The best evangelist I've met to date was a woman at work who I knew had a lot of problems in her life but was always cheerful, serene and just sort of glowed. I knew from general conversation that she was a regular church-goer and that it was very important in her life.
She never talked to me directly about her religion at all - ever - but it was her example that got me interested in going back to church. She had something I wanted and I wanted to find out where and how she got it.
Just make your life an example of the transforming power of God's love and grace and forget about handing out tracts. Simple really.
How much of your church is seriousness to the point of despair, and how much is the St. Francis bon mot: "Preach the Gospel at all times, and, if necessary, use words"?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, exactly which activities is it that you resent not being allowed to join in with?
I'm not naming specifics because it's not so much about what I resent not having done as why the Christian Life has nothing on offer with which to replace them. It's full of "Thou Shalt Not"s with no "Thou Shalt"s to take their place.
I have to admit I don't have a lot of trouble with some of the 'thou shalts'. Coveting either my neighbour's donkey or his wife aren't liable to tempt me into much sin. The rest is common sense, surely. And how much fun can a sincere Christian claim adultery, theft, idolatry and beating your parents up to be?
It's just another way of saying 'you shall live a life without doing the following, if you want to be reasonably happy and sure of not doing harm.'
However, I guess all the 'thou shalts' were covered when Jesus said 'thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself' - along with a few other things to do with loving people. What was it he said, 'A new commandment, I give unto you....'?
Still, sometimes when I see what churchpeople do to the gospel, including myself, I wonder what happened to the bit about 'I've come so that people may have life, and have it abundantly'.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
(1 Cor. 15:19)
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
That about sums it up, imho: the "joy" is supposed to come after we leave mortality. Face it, Christianity is self abnegation.
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The one big difference in terms of how Christians and non-Christians spend their time is probably how they spend leisure time. I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life. Christians might spend some of their free time in church and some more of it involved in service to the community (though many non-Christians would do the latter as well), and if those things are making the Christian unhappy, s/he might be going to the wrong church or doing the wrong sort of service.
It should also be remembered that in addition to casual sex, drinking, and crime, non-Christian activities also include sports, writing or reading a (non-Christian themed) novel, playing (non-Christian themed) video games, and watching (non-Christian themed) movies. Yeah, hard to see how any of those things could be a joyful experience.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The one big difference in terms of how Christians and non-Christians spend their time is probably how they spend leisure time. I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life. Christians might spend some of their free time in church and some more of it involved in service to the community (though many non-Christians would do the latter as well), and if those things are making the Christian unhappy, s/he might be going to the wrong church or doing the wrong sort of service.
It should also be remembered that in addition to casual sex, drinking, and crime, non-Christian activities also include sports, writing or reading a (non-Christian themed) novel, playing (non-Christian themed) video games, and watching (non-Christian themed) movies. Yeah, hard to see how any of those things could be a joyful experience.
No, I don't get that, because none of those activities are forbidden to Christians (see my disclaimer about belonging to exclusive sects that outlaw all forms of "nonChristian" fun). My argument would be that Christians can do pretty much all the "fun" things nonChristians can do, including all the ones you mentioned. The only "fun" leisure activities specifically forbidden to Christians would be those that I would argue create more harm than joy.
Am I missing your point somehow?
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Books and things.
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Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
No, I don't get that, because none of those activities are forbidden to Christians (see my disclaimer about belonging to exclusive sects that outlaw all forms of "nonChristian" fun). My argument would be that Christians can do pretty much all the "fun" things nonChristians can do, including all the ones you mentioned. The only "fun" leisure activities specifically forbidden to Christians would be those that I would argue create more harm than joy.
Am I missing your point somehow?
I guess my point is that if sports are "Christian" then Sandy Koufax will be plenty surprised. Ditto for all those Muslims who've been missing out on binge drinking just because no one told them.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Huh? What do Muslims drinking or not drinking have to do with Christian joy?
And who said sports was anti-Christian? No wonder people live po-faced Christian lives if they have such ideas of what to avoid as you list.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Croesos, I must be incredibly dense because I still do not see the point you are making. I never suggested that sports or novels or anything were exclusively Christian, nor that Christianity was the only religion that disapproved of binge drinking or sleeping around or the like. My point was:
-Christians do most of the same routine, everyday things that non-Christians do,
-Christians enjoy most of the same leisure activities non-Christians do (i.e. those activities are neither "Christian" nor "non-Christian," just human), and
-Those leisure activities from which Christians are prohibited generally bring more sorrow than joy.
I still can't see how any of what you've said relates to what I said. Can you break your point down a little more, please?
[ 24. February 2009, 00:24: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Huh? What do Muslims drinking or not drinking have to do with Christian joy?
And who said sports was anti-Christian? No wonder people live po-faced Christian lives if they have such ideas of what to avoid as you list.
According to Trudy, as non-Christians drug/alcohol abuse is one of the top three activities for Muslims, who apparently live dour lives not "conducive to joy" because of it.
And I never said sports were anti-Christian, just non-Christian. Despite the existence of the "Hail Mary Pass" and the "Miricle on Ice", most sports are non-denominational.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Sorry, I thought that by inserting the word "stereotypically" and then putting "non-Christian" in quotes, people would understand that I meant, "Activities sometimes pursued by some people, many of whom may not be Christians or followers of any other religious faith, which Christians often stereotype as being 'the type of things non-Christians do' when they want to give examples of secular, and presumably sinful, leisure activities."
Guess you just can't be too clear around here.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge through the lonely streets of faithfulness while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing on the avenues of fun and jollity?
Because that's the way it is, and why Atheism International schedules all atheist orgies for Sunday mornings. Boringness is next to godliness.
Posts: 2044 | From: Auckland | Registered: Nov 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The one big difference in terms of how Christians and non-Christians spend their time is probably how they spend leisure time. I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life.
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Sorry, I thought that by inserting the word "stereotypically" and then putting "non-Christian" in quotes, people would understand that I meant, "Activities sometimes pursued by some people, many of whom may not be Christians or followers of any other religious faith, which Christians often stereotype as being 'the type of things non-Christians do' when they want to give examples of secular, and presumably sinful, leisure activities."
Guess you just can't be too clear around here.
You were perfectly clear. You said you were indulging in stereotypes of things done by those without Christian beliefs, and I believe you. It's just a fairly ugly stereotype. I also wanted to point out that non-Christian (or "non-Christian") is such a broad category that such stereotyping is always going to be fairly useless, something I tried to illustrate with my "Muslim binge drinking" example.
And non-Christians "may not" be Christian? C'mon, isn't that a little weaselly? (Not to imply any disparagement of actual weasels!)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
No, people who binge drink or sleep around may not be Christians. Obviously, Christians might do these things too.
I guess I see the point you were trying to make now, but I'm not sure it undermines in any way the point I was making. The only leisure activities I know of that are specifically forbidden to Christians are things that aren't really that much fun.
My basic problem with the OP is that I have a hard time visualize what it is Marvin's non-Christian friends are doing that looks like so much fun, but that he feels his Christianity prohibits him from doing. And I know he said he didn't want to get into specifics but without specifics I think the whole argument falls apart. When I look at what my non-Christian friends are doing, 95% of it is more or less the exact same stuff I'm doing. The other 5% honestly doesn't seem like that much fun. So I'm just stretching to imagine what Marvin's friends are getting up to.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Maybe all he really wants is a bar mitzvah.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Clonk:
Sports are non-Christian?
I've certainly never noticed a requirement for Trinitarianism to perform a corner kick. Note the difference between the prefixes non- and anti-.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lord Clonk
Shipmate
# 13205
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Posted
Oh, I wasn't questionning whether it's anti-Christian or not. I was just wondering whether you think that this passage has no relevance to sport:
'He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.'
For even the non-Christians eat meat.
[ 24. February 2009, 01:16: Message edited by: Lord Clonk ]
Posts: 267 | From: Glasgow | Registered: Nov 2007
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Kid Who Cracked
Shipmate
# 13963
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
(1 Cor. 15:19)
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
That about sums it up, imho: the "joy" is supposed to come after we leave mortality. Face it, Christianity is self abnegation.
Where would that leave, "I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly," or joy being a fruit of the Spirit?
Posts: 532 | From: Texas | Registered: Jul 2008
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is there anything that can be done to make the Christian Life more joyful?
To take one's selfishness and throw it in the garbage. To seek and will for the benefit of the other, and not for one's own benefit.
Are you still wondering why many people aren't living joyfully as Christians?
I second §Andrew's post. In the long run, joy can only be sustained by leading a useful life for the benefit of others. All you need to do is find something you enjoy doing that helps others.
Our natural inclinations to enjoy fun activities do not lead us to happiness. If you find yourself lacking, find something you can do for someone else out of love. As long as you don't miscalculate the effect you will have, it's a guaranteed way to find joy.
BTW, a psychologist I heard once on the radio pointed out that happiness is something you remember. Maybe not the entire truth, but definitely something to it.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Though it's not easy either and one of the things that annoys me is the 'Christians must be happy all the time' school of thought.
Joy isn't the same with being happy though. The joy the Holy Spirit's presence brings can co-exist with sorrow (again, a gift of the Holy Spirit, to be sorrowful for the pain of the world) and it's not to be confused with "being happy" sentimentalism in my view.
Sorry for the double post, but the idea of sorrow from compassion being a gift of the Holy Spirit is one that occurred to me a long time ago, but until now I've never come across someone else expressing the same thought. Does this merely reflect the limits of my situation or is it an unusual idea in other parts of the world too?
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I have learned that God's few "thou shalt nots" are for my benefit, not unlike Mommy saying "thou shalt not cross the street without first stopping to look both ways for traffic." Chasing a ball into the street is more fun, for the moment, than following the rules and stopping to look; but the danger is real, and recovering in a hospital bed is a bigger pain than the ball chasing was fun.
I'm talking about pain now, not some distant "punishment."
All of God's rules are for our own benefit NOW. Eat your veggies, don't sleep around, get enough execise, do your homework, don't attack others behind their back with malicious gossip, don't fry your brains on dangerous drugs - what's not to like, whether parent rules or God-rules?
Some people seem to - or maybe actually do - "get away with" blacking out on alcohol. (How is getting "wasted" fun? The one time I got drunk I was miserable for a lot longer than the party had lasted!)
But even if some "get away with it" the danger is real - often kinds of danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more (and because we tend to not believe God).
Do people and groups add silly extra burdensome rules? You betcha. Demand to know the purpose of any suggested rule. If it doesn't have a goal of advancing your health (physical mental, relational), it's not a God rule. "Christians shouldn't enjoy life" is not a God-value, so rules based on nonsense like this aren't from God.
But unlearning the imposed un-Godly "rules" can be real hard.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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