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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A church for men
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The Diocese of Oxford hopes to tackle the shortage of men who attend church... Superficial changes to church services, such as changing the hymns or reducing the number of flowers, amounted to 'rearranging the furniture on the Titanic'.... Many men needed 'a safe forum to work out what they think' in an environment in which 'they are able to swear' or express controversial views.
I read the above (in the Church Times) and thought it's all very well saying this, but how would you actually go about creating a church to specifically attract men. (Presumably one where women are not actually banned altogether, but one with men mainly in mind.) I think we're very good at it on the Ship (you can certainly swear or rail at God here, and nobody much minds, and there is plenty of room for discussion of controversial views) and we - consequently, or coincidentally? - do seem to have quite a large number of male posters. But how on earth would you replicate that in a real life church?
[ 05. January 2015, 23:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
Reducing the number of flowers would not attract me more to a church if i were already attracted. It all sounds a little like superficial stereotyping. I wouldn't want as my church one that was mostly men or mostly women. I know women overall have a higher church attendance rate in general, which doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. As long as both had a reasonable representation; it need not be 50-50.
[ 19. January 2011, 15:37: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
Perhaps a few more of those 18th century memorials with *ahem* diaphanous draperies?
I wish I could remember where, but there's a church where the deceased appeared to not only have been the possessor of a truly magnificent right knocker, but also to be very, very cold.
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Perhaps, following the pattern here, by allowing very spirited debate and discussion of issues - something the church doesn't seem very good or practiced at. That's good for everybody, both women and men alike.
Interestingly, BTW, I'm doing some work with Walter Frere's book "The principles of religious ceremonial" - and here's what he writes in his Introductory:
quote:
We have called ceremonial a general feature of human life, because in point of fact it is found everywhere. Court life has its ceremonial, but so has family life. It forms no small part of the attraction of gatherings and societies of one sort or another: the Order of Freemasons may be taken to represent this at one social level, and the Ancient Order of Foresters at another. It is one of the main safeguards of discussion wherever men meet to discuss, from the House of Commons to the 'Magpie and Stump.' It is called in to add solemnity to the administration of justice, and impressiveness to the Army and Navy. It is a masculine weakness, if weakness it be, rather than a feminine one; for it is the peacock, after all, who is most pleased with his appearance, and struts most bravely that all the world may know how pleased he is.
But if we inquire into the reason on which this general feature of human life rests, it is not a mere peacock's love of self-advertisement, but something much more inevitable. A task has to be done: then it must be done somehow. That 'somehow' may be good or bad; therefore prudence suggests that a method should be devised and laid down. Ceremonial has begun.
I obviously bolded the above. (Hey, it's Frere, not me....)
But seriously, folks: debate, questioning, discussion. I think that's where the church misses the point a lot.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
I've mentioned this before elsewhere, but I've always thought that the male/female divide in church attendance stems from the fact that, especially in "traditional" family structures and divisions of household labor, most men are typically giving up leisure time to attend church whereas many women are getting a respite from housework and child care. It's a matter of different opportunity costs, not the attractive power of church attendance in itself.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
At least in my own little neck of the woods, that's not so true. I personally don't know that many stay-at-home moms.
Of course that may be because i live in the "inner city" and work in a profession which is predominantly (though not overwhelmingly) female.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
To me, it's a bit of a problem that the church doesn't offer much in the way of an actual, concrete program, the way A.A. does. (There are lots of men in the rooms of A.A. - but of course, the motivation is a bit different there.)
I mean, we're supposed to "believe" and then "be healed." But how is that supposed to work, anyway? Does it work? Maybe for a small number of people - but what about the rest of us?
The church needs some Steps, that's all. Some coherent, concrete program that helps people get in touch with the breadth and depth of what living is. It's lost this, if it ever had hold of it. And there are some Steps that are known to produce these results, and also produce deep love and loyalty.
My $.02, anyway. A.A. is really better at a lot of things than the church is, sorry - but that's something that can be remedied. I'm working on it, anyway..... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
TubaMirum: that's an amazing reference to Magpie and Stump! How did I not know that Frere was from these parts?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
At least in my own little neck of the woods, that's not so true. I personally don't know that many stay-at-home moms.
Who said anything about "stay-at-home moms"? Even for couples where both partners are working housework and childcare still fall more frequently to women than men, a trend that's exacerbated by the "traditional family structure" I mentioned above. In other words, for a lot of men Sunday is a day off work. For their wives, Sunday is a day when they're expected to work another job.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
TubaMirum: that's an amazing reference to Magpie and Stump! How did I not know that Frere was from these parts?
Amos, I wasn't sure what that was! (Actually, what is it?)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
But how on earth would you replicate that in a real life church?
The Revd Ben Norton in Bridlington seems to be doing a good job of it at XY Lads Church (more on the Fresh Expressions website here.).
From what I know of this church, openness and discussion is encouraged, and any ideas can be expressed. It seems to be built around the idea of discussion rather than teaching, so similar to the Ship in that way. For example, reading the FE website above, there seems to have been a row about who bought rounds in the pub - people got cross and swore and then things were resolved. A bit Hellish, perhaps?
Ben seems to do something similar with St Max Church, which isn't just for men.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
The Diocese of Oxford hopes to tackle the shortage of men who attend church... Superficial changes to church services, such as changing the hymns or reducing the number of flowers, amounted to 'rearranging the furniture on the Titanic'.... Many men needed 'a safe forum to work out what they think' in an environment in which 'they are able to swear' or express controversial views.
Hmm. Interesting. Sounds a bit more like a debating society than a church. Mind you, I'm not sure if a debating society could be described as "safe".
If men are anything like me, then I suspect they get the most out of very small group discussions over what they think the meaning of their lives are. A bit like an informal counselling session. However, men will run a mile if there's any attempt to make them feel as though they ought to be grateful for this kind of service being provided for them; they prefer to consider it mutual. And men also won't like it if they feel that such discussions are being used to drive them towards some doctrine or ideology without taking their objections into account.
I'm curious to know how much of this takes place between men informally in the workplace, and in the armed forces.
I'm not sure how you'd create a church to cater for men in this way - but I don't think you do it by screwing about with the liturgy. Which I think fits with what TubaMirum has said.
If the opportunity to discuss what they think is truly safe, then men should not fear that they might be barred from the communion rail over it. Discussions and liturgical celebrations need to be kept separate. Sermons should be thought-provoking - but they should also be short. They certainly should not be the main focus of a liturgical celebration; it's better if the main focus is the eucharist. I suppose that'll be my Oxford Movement sympathies coming out there.
Perhaps the discussions could be had at a coffee shop. Or, better yet, a pub. But you need to be careful not to let them turn into big messy booze-ups too often.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
No, the real problem is what is men's special role in the church today?
I had this discussion with my minister one Sunday morning. We have the women's club, the United Church Women who rule the church kitchen with iron hands. The men get to use it occasionally but we're definitely guests. OK, some of the maintenance is male-dominated but nobody would bat an eye if their granddaughter came out to help us sweep the parking lot. Women have been eligible to be ordained clergy and join the Session since the 1930's.
So what is men's special role? Heck, I baked a communion loaf a few months ago because Head Office sent out a commemorative batch of flour for the United Church of Canada's 85th Anniversary. I turned a few heads during the Official Board meeting when I, the possessor of a penis, offered to bake it into bread. I turned even more heads when it actually tasted good and wasn't cardboard or some other form of freakery.
The problem is that we still have women's roles in church but we've eliminated the special men's role. How do men get to contribute and feel worthy in a manly way?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Social events of the community. What do men like to do? Talk about mutual interests and do things that don't involve self disclosure. That's not everyone but a sizable group. We have a well attended men's breakfast where there is a speaker about interesting things. It's a meeting people where they are comfortable thing. The other thing that draws is a doing things group: everything from cooking the Shrove Tuesday pancakes to maintenance of some infirm people's homes.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
To me, it's a bit of a problem that the church doesn't offer much in the way of an actual, concrete program, the way A.A. does. (There are lots of men in the rooms of A.A. - but of course, the motivation is a bit different there.)
I don't see people as wanting 'steps' myself. People are more likely to rail against being told to do things in a certain prescribed way. AA isn't exactly popular - most alchoholics don't even go to it unless they've hit rock bottom - I don't think that's the best model.
Personally I think this forum is a better model, as others have said. Lively, free-wheeling discussion. No holds-barred, no one looking worried because you've said something you shouldn't have. Jacob wrestled with God, I think that's what some men are looking for.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I've mentioned this before elsewhere, but I've always thought that the male/female divide in church attendance stems from the fact that, especially in "traditional" family structures and divisions of household labor, most men are typically giving up leisure time to attend church whereas many women are getting a respite from housework and child care. It's a matter of different opportunity costs, not the attractive power of church attendance in itself.
Do you attend a church? If a regularly-attending woman is getting a respite from housework and childcare, it is in exchange for the opportunity to host a coffee hour and teach Sunday School...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
At our church it's physical labor that seems to bring the fellows around -- when we were building our addition we had heretofore marginal members of our congo showing up every day to help swing hammers or put up drywall or what have you.
Church council also seems to be a place where men feel at home -- we have about a 50/50 gender representation there.
Where we can't get men to serve is in worship other than ushering -- as lectors or presenters/servers. I'm not sure why men would think that reading Scripture aloud to the assembly or helping distribute the Eucharist is an affront to their masculinity -- especially since, until fairly recently in history, those roles were their exclusive province.
Is this really a crisis in the church, or is it just another attempt for zero-sum social conservatives to take a sideswipe at gender equity -- "Everything was fine until those uppity women took all the special jobs away from us!"?
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
How to get more men in church?
Overthrow capitalism and patriarchy.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Ah, the annual "there aren't enough men in church" thread!
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
How to get more men in church?
Overthrow capitalism and patriarchy.
What will that do?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
No, the real problem is what is men's special role in the church today?
I had this discussion with my minister one Sunday morning. We have the women's club, the United Church Women who rule the church kitchen with iron hands.
Maybe I just grew up in a very old-fashioned place but there was a time when men in church kitchens was a novelty not because the guys were bursting the doors down to get in and help with the cleaning and the catering, except the women were preventing them; but because nothing got cleaned or catered for unless it was a woman in the kitchen who did it.
Maybe your ladies are simply the inevitable remnant of established old habits of letting the little woman do all the crap kitchen work? And having been left to get on with it for centuries and consequently grown rather used to it are a little reluctant to hand it over? After all if one spends a few millenia telling women their place is in the kitchen it might take a little de-programming to reverse things. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Just a thought.
quote:
So what is men's special role?
I don't know about a special role but I'd be happy if some of our gentlemen would take on any role. The women quietly and without fuss manage to clean, decorate, polish the inside of the church year round without having to be begged or flattered into it. But the easily tended, flat graveyard round the church, which requires only two regular cuts during the growing season, is usually left to one or two over-burdened volunteers.
So I would everybody's special role regardless of genitalia is to do what needs to be done according to the gifts they've been given.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Do women have a "special" role?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
At least in my own little neck of the woods, that's not so true. I personally don't know that many stay-at-home moms.
Who said anything about "stay-at-home moms"? Even for couples where both partners are working housework and childcare still fall more frequently to women than men, a trend that's exacerbated by the "traditional family structure" I mentioned above. In other words, for a lot of men Sunday is a day off work. For their wives, Sunday is a day when they're expected to work another job.
You are very correct there! Maybe the Church needs to do something to help correct or at least mitigate this situation. I don't have any quick answers but, if planned right, it seems like a good outreach opportunity.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
It seems obvious that there are church services attended primarily by males--think of military chaplains.
Does anyone know if the imbalance of the sexes in church attendance is found widespread across national, class and denominational boundaries?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Anselmina:
I`m not arguing your point, in fact I agree with it. The but truth remains that the women still have their province while the men don't really have one anymore. At the present time there is a disconnect there.
So I like to bake. It turns many older lady's heads. Well, when you're a bachelor with a one-bedroom apartment and want a hobby, a kitchen is far easier to use and pay for than power tools and a workshop. Besides, if I want a steak dinner, I have to cook it myself.
And yes, there is a lot of patriarchy and sexism over the whole kitchen thing. So many men of my grandfather's generation were never bachelors living alone and never learned to cook. They worked outside, women worked inside. These same men do not look after themselves well when their wives die first.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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moveable_type
Shipmate
# 9673
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Posted
Well, there's always the Salvation Army - uniforms, ranks, a brass band, fire-and-brimstone preaching.
Posts: 1062 | From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2005
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Contrast two different Bible study groups.
One sits in a rapt circle, waiting for the priest to tell us what to think, and is horrified as a group if anyone challenges anything. It is two-thirds older female.
The other actually has discussion and banter, loathes the "set books" with questions neatly laid out in stifling order, and poses questions as much as it finds answers. It is over half male.
Both my wife and I prefer the latter, BTW. It isn't JUST a gender thing. You have to have some form of involvement that doesn't bring up the Sunday-schoolmarm stifling any questions.
And the guys who do come also take more part in the Sunday service. But they won't take part if there is too much insistence on the exact liturgical form at the expense of the meaning and feeling of the service.
And the men will run away from things like flower arranging that have nothing to do with anything religious.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
The other actually has discussion and banter, loathes the "set books" with questions neatly laid out in stifling order, and poses questions as much as it finds answers. It is over half male.
Well, damn -- sign me up for that one too.
Seriously -- aren't you doing some gender stereotyping here?
I spent three years in lay ministry training precisely BECAUSE I wanted to escape the type of Bible study you describe in your first paragraph. I've never ascribed a gender component to the dynamics you describe; rather a timidity toward the Bible created by theological conservatism and lack of necessary educational tools that would empower the participants to discuss the Bible in an intellectually rigorous way.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ah, the annual "there aren't enough men in church" thread!
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
How to get more men in church?
Overthrow capitalism and patriarchy.
What will that do?
Stop the repitition of discussions like this?
And all sorts of other good things that I might get back to when I have worked out how to reboot this bloody Linux server....
AAAAAAARGH! POETIC JUSTICE IS SO FUCKING FAIR!!!!!!!!!!! SHIT!!!!!! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
And all sorts of other good things that I might get back to when I have worked out how to reboot this bloody Linux server....
Have you tried switching it off and then on again?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ah, the annual "there aren't enough men in church" thread!
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
How to get more men in church?
Overthrow capitalism and patriarchy.
What will that do?
I can't see how.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
- Don't hold it on a Sunday morning.
- Provide food that isn't (&^(*ing vegetarian or soup
- Have hymns you can belt out
For starters, will attract some women too.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
[*]Don't hold it on a Sunday morning.
Actually Sunday is th best time for adult men because other days they are more likely to be at work - which is why midweek services are almost exclusively attended by elderly women.
quote:
[*]Provide food that isn't (&^(*ing vegetarian or soup
Soup? Since when do churches do soup outside poncey Lenten fake fasts? Our oplace tends to vast quantities of spicy chicken legs and jollof rice.
quote:
[*]Have hymns you can belt out
We often do. Still three times as many women as men.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
[*]Don't hold it on a Sunday morning.
Actually Sunday is th best time for adult men because other days they are more likely to be at work - which is why midweek services are almost exclusively attended by elderly women.
OK perhaps the operative word is morning - if you have to get up at stupidoclock all week you want a lie-in at the weekend.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The church with the elderly ladies is also the one that has an annual pancake supper "put on by the men" - except that the lasies occupy all the key places in the kitchen since men obviously aren't competent to count out how many pancakes to put on plate.
The church with the discussion also has the men who help set up the potlucks and often cook the meals.
"Stereotype", you say. I say "observation"
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Anselmina:
I`m not arguing your point, in fact I agree with it. The but truth remains that the women still have their province while the men don't really have one anymore. At the present time there is a disconnect there.
:confused:You do rather seem to be saying one thing here but meaning another. The complaint is that you're prevented from doing what the kitchen women do (which does seem completely absurd); but you then conclude there's nothing 'special' for only men to do.
You even, in your first post, draw a kind of parallel that if women were allowed to be ordained then why aren't men allowed in the kitchen. That doesn't speak of a 'special' role, that speaks of an equal role.
So which is it? A specific exclusive role for men only; or a warm welcome into the kitchen confines for yourself?
Frankly, I think your church must be bananas. I can barely remember the last time I was in a church kitchen, or a church do where men weren't positively encouraged to get their fingers out and help. And if you headed in our direction, you'd have no end of 'special' roles that in all likelihood you would be the only and one person - never mind man - fulfilling.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
OK perhaps the operative word is morning - if you have to get up at stupidoclock all week you want a lie-in at the weekend.
But church has to be over in time for the football game!
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Our church choir is very popular with men (often more men than women) but I can't work out why. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Perhaps it's something to do with the fact we spend almost as much time in the pub after choir practice as we do at choir practice???
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
To me, it's a bit of a problem that the church doesn't offer much in the way of an actual, concrete program, the way A.A. does. (There are lots of men in the rooms of A.A. - but of course, the motivation is a bit different there.)
I don't see people as wanting 'steps' myself. People are more likely to rail against being told to do things in a certain prescribed way. AA isn't exactly popular - most alchoholics don't even go to it unless they've hit rock bottom - I don't think that's the best model.
Personally I think this forum is a better model, as others have said. Lively, free-wheeling discussion. No holds-barred, no one looking worried because you've said something you shouldn't have. Jacob wrestled with God, I think that's what some men are looking for.
Well, I said that, too - there should be discussion of whatever anybody wants to discuss. (That happens in A.A., too, BTW - that's what meetings are.)
Alcoholics don't want to go to A.A. because we don't want to stop drinking. We don't know anything about the Steps prior to arriving on the doorstep, believe me. Anyway, nobody in A.A. has to do the Steps, either - they are "the program," but they're entirely optional. Same could go in the church. But there should be more than "I believe." There should be something to do - a program of action.
Call it something else, if you like....
[ 19. January 2011, 21:17: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
My kinda choir! Yes it is very hard to get a good gender balance in choirs: good on yours!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ah, the annual "there aren't enough men in church" thread!
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
How to get more men in church?
Overthrow capitalism and patriarchy.
What will that do?
Stop the repitition of discussions like this?
And all sorts of other good things that I might get back to when I have worked out how to reboot this bloody Linux server....
AAAAAAARGH! POETIC JUSTICE IS SO FUCKING FAIR!!!!!!!!!!! SHIT!!!!!!
Log in as root and type reboot. That's worked on all the Linux flavours I've tried since the early 90s. Maybe I was just lucky...
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
(Maybe something like "the noble eightfold path"? But the Christian version - because I don't think the church is communicating well at all with its current approach. I mean, we don't often get the idea that the spiritual life is one of adventure and excitement - which is really too bad, since it is.
The "path to enlightenment" is an idea that people can understand and already have an intuition about; they do suspect, I think, that there's more to life than the daily grind and whatever's on sale at the mall. I'm not sure they understand the Christian story as a way to get to the "more" anymore.
So I think it's either some sort of concrete program - or else some really new way of getting the point across.
But, at the very least: offer good, interesting discussions about things like this.)
[ 19. January 2011, 21:40: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
(Maybe something like "the noble eightfold path"? But the Christian version - because I don't think the church is communicating well at all with its current approach. I mean, we don't often get the idea that the spiritual life is one of adventure and excitement - which is really too bad, since it is.
This would make some shippies happy -- the ones who complained about churches without an instant binary soteriology because they needed to know at all times how far along the path they were. (You know who you are, gentle readers.) If we had an 8-fold path and they had checked off items 1, 2, and 4 on their handy Heavenly Merit Badge Scorecard, they'd know they were 37.5% of the way to heaven.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I wonder how many churches actually ask the men who come into contact briefly with the church, eg. at the baptism of their children, whether there is anything they can think of to encourage them to visit more often. I'm aware from comments from young families that the church often thinks it knows what people want or need but often get it badly wrong - becuase they never ask.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
(Maybe something like "the noble eightfold path"? But the Christian version - because I don't think the church is communicating well at all with its current approach. I mean, we don't often get the idea that the spiritual life is one of adventure and excitement - which is really too bad, since it is.
This would make some shippies happy -- the ones who complained about churches without an instant binary soteriology because they needed to know at all times how far along the path they were. (You know who you are, gentle readers.) If we had an 8-fold path and they had checked off items 1, 2, and 4 on their handy Heavenly Merit Badge Scorecard, they'd know they were 37.5% of the way to heaven.
Well, and that's where the "12 Steps" come in! Because you do end up repeating them; just when you think you've got a handle on something, you realize you're a complete beginner and need to go back and start over again.
All with the very real experience you have accumulated, of course.....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Traveller
Shipmate
# 1943
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Posted
In work circles where I was known to be a church goer at weekends, most people (but particularly men) just didn't see the point of religion and church.
Their issues seemed to be lack of time and money to spend with / on their mates, families and other interests such as sport.
Therefore, what happens inside a church building on a Sunday morning (or at any other time) is irrelevant, since they have no interest. Wayside posters are ignored, as too obvious for any sort of consideration. Any sort of invitation to a special event would definitely be met with a "not interested" reaction.
I don't have any answers, just observations. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33
Posts: 1037 | From: Wherever the car has stopped at the moment! | Registered: Dec 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Actually I wonder how much the instant binary soteriology is to blame. Okay, I prayed the Sinner's Prayer, I'm saved now. Why should I keep going to church when I'm already saved and I'm not getting anything out of it anymore?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I still don't see a connection between male inactivity in church and "feminized" church activities. The ones people have described on this forum thus far don't sound "girly" -- they just sound lame and boring for anyone.
Now, if you insist that this is a gender issue, try this: Kick the fellows out. Say, "Good riddance."
At my university, when the women resisted an attempt by the school to take over the Student Union's venerable Women's Lounge and make it co-ed, the women rebelled and became even more territorial and intolerant of even casual visits by males...which in turn made the lounge utterly irresistable for men....they were getting dragged out of the place on a weely basis.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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hereweare
Shipmate
# 15567
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Posted
IIRC it was once said that by ordaining women in the CofE it would attract more men - NOT on the sexual element ie busty lady Vicar draws crowds, but that male Vicars put off men as they were a bit....well lets say not rugby types, so a female would be more accetable! Please not I don't agree with this, but it was put forward as a position. Clearly it seems that is not the case.
I have observed though, that in the RC Church the male/female ratio seems more equal than the CofE. Not sure what it means though!
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Come home to Rome this Christmas!
Posts: 206 | From: here | Registered: Mar 2010
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
The proportion of men in our congregation certainly went up when we first got a woman vicar, and has beem slowly rising since I doubt if there is any causality between the two.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Let me try this from a different angle:
This is directed to all readers who perceive this horrible groundswell of male discontent with church:
1. Presumably you think that there was a more healthy male-female ratio in church participation twenty or fifty or one hundred years ago. The same activities you complain are hopelessly feminized were part of church life back then as well. At least for many of us, the worship service itself is the same general form as it was in those past generations. So, with that in mind, what do you think has changed in the church that is supposedly such a turn-off to men? Why was church more tolerable, in your thesis, for men in my dad's generation or in mine than in yours?
2. My church has a quite healthy male-female ratio, and except for a couple pockets of female-dominated activities this holds true for church life outside service time as well. Okay? MY church is the way it sounds that you would like YOUR church to be. We don't have "men's ministries." We don't have gender-restricted service opportunities. We don't have a theology or praxis that is supportive of male "headship" or other male privilege. And our service is your basic middle-ish up the candle liturgical service with no manufactured excitement thrown in. Money question: To what, then, do you attribute our even gender distribution? Why is my church the way you wish your church was, but isn't?
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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