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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Watch your language?
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Saul the Apostle
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# 13808
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Posted
Is it possible to call different races by terms acceptable say 70 or 80 years ago?
I am thinking of the term 'Jap' for Japanese person? I assume this is unacceptable?
I guess 'Yid' is definitely not acceptable for a Jewish person? Jew boy also seems to be unacceptable too?
I won't even ask about the term 'nigger' as that seems wholly unacceptable today.
But, can I call an American a ''Yank''?
Am I OK to be called a ''Brit'' am I ever called a ''Limey''?
''Kraut'' seems somehow odd to refer to a German in 2013?
How does language evolve in this way and why does it do so?
Saul
[ 10. April 2013, 05:49: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Yes, it's odd this, isn't it?
I think it's got something to do with whether both sides think of themselves as equals. So Frog, Kraut and Strine seem to be OK. But as soon as either party thinks the other one might regard themselves as superior or inferior - even if they don't - the nickname starts to feel a bit edgy. Thus Wop, Dago, Paddy and Taff hover on the brink and Wog, Nigger and Kaffir are definitely utterly beyond the pale. You can tell if a word is beyond the pale if you feel you shouldn't even be writing it down, as I felt when writing the last three, but not the others.
Also, you can jocularly refer to a well known former Conservative politician and presenter of television programmes about trains as a Dago, because everyone knows he's an important person who can stick up for himself. But it would be offensive to refer to Manuel as one.
Yank is a slightly odd one, since it's OK to use it in Britain, but Americans will assiduously point out to you that it strictly should only be used of people from the top right hand corner of the USA.
I've a vague feeling that Jap is worse than Nip, but am not sure why. I think it's got something to do with 2nd World War usage.
Hun and Limey are both dated now.
Another curious thing, is that if one watches US television programmes, it seems the Canadians and ourselves are fair game to be insulted, but if you insult anyone else, that's racist etc. Everyone else is entitled to be touchy, but the Canadians and us aren't.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I think there are contradictory currents at work when it comes to naming groups.
Current 1: language is a kind of majoritarian social contract. Whatever a large linguistic group deems acceptable is acceptable.
Current 2: Whatever a (usually and by definition a minority) subgroup of a linguistic deems an acceptable term for itself is acceptable.
So the majority ends up defining and using as acceptable something like "pwned" (or using "contact" as a verb), but the minority ends up defining for the majority and using as acceptable a term like "black" or "African-American" or "Negro."
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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The Rhythm Methodist
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# 17064
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Posted
I don't think we Brits are allowed to use the term "Paki" these days, although it was in common parlance until fairly recently. Likewise, the word "Pickaninny" (to describe a black child) now falls into the derogatory category. I last heard that used by an elderly female missionary, who was actually saying what a beautiful kid the mother had - but it didn't go down too well.
Perhaps who is saying it, also makes a difference. A friend of mine habitually refers to the Scottish people as "The Porridge Wogs". Nobody minds - he's a Scot himself - but I don't think any of us English people would want to repeat it. I think it's always been OK to be rude about your own "tribe".
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913
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Posted
The usage of the "n" word, as we refer to it in the US, is hotly debated today. Not among whites, it is off limits for a white to use it (unless you are a certifiable racist), but among the black community. It is used often there and the debate is within that community. The recent death of Senator Inouye reminded me of an incident in the Watergate hearing. Senator Inouye had been grilling a member of the Nixon Administration. The Nixon man, thinking he was off mike, referred to Inouye as a Jap and a brouhaha ensued. So many slurs are imbedded in our slang we don't always realize they are slurs, like to gyp someone or referring to a police vehicle for hauling arrested people away in as a paddy wagon. Intent is everything. I remember years ago my loving Irish grandmother (born in the 1890s) holding, quite proudly, a great grandchild of a mixed raced marriage. With a huge smile of love on her face she said: "Isn't this the cutest little(n-word) you have ever seen!" Yes, grandma. Only time will spell the end to some words.
Posts: 199 | From: Where once you could get a decent Brain Sandwich | Registered: Aug 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This is one area where we cannot, must not emulate Jesus: He used racist language. And yes of course I can do the culturally based theodicy. And that won't work for many here.
[ 31. December 2012, 14:10: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dave W.
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# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yank is a slightly odd one, since it's OK to use it in Britain, but Americans will assiduously point out to you that it strictly should only be used of people from the top right hand corner of the USA.
It turns out the term "yankee" actually has four levels of semi-recursion:
quote:
For foreigners, a "yankee" is an American. For American southerners, a "yankee" is a northerner. For northerners, a "yankee" is somebody from New England. For New Englanders, a "yankee" is somebody from Vermont. For Vermonters, a "yankee" is somebody who eats apple pie for breakfast.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Saul the Apostle
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# 13808
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Posted
I did hear the term ''bog - wog'' for an Irish person a fair bit, but this was in the UK in the 1980s.
I tend to be called a ''scouser'' as I was a native of the city for 28 years then became a ''southern softie'' living on the South coast of England. For a Liverpudlian the term ''southerner'' is quite pejorative and they say the word often with a certain disdain.
The word ''nigger'' was perfectly acceptable to say in Britain up until the 1950s and was common parlance for a black person, it wasn't always said with disdain but is now very unacceptable. In strictly descriptive terms it does just mean black (niger apparently means black?).
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The word ''nigger'' was perfectly acceptable to say in Britain up until the 1950s and was common parlance for a black person, it wasn't always said with disdain but is now very unacceptable. In strictly descriptive terms it does just mean black (niger apparently means black?).
Saul
Niger (officially the Republic of Niger) is a landlocked republic in western Africa.
In etymological terms, nigger is a corruption of the Spanish/Portuguese word negro which is simply the word for the colour black.
In descriptive terms, referring to a nigger can safely be assumed to be a perjorative implying that a person's Sub-Saharan African descent means they are simple or barbaric.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The word ''nigger'' was perfectly acceptable to say in Britain up until the 1950s ...
No it wasn't. A BBC announcer was suspended from their job in the 1940s for using it on air.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The word ''nigger'' was perfectly acceptable to say in Britain up until the 1950s ...
No it wasn't. A BBC announcer was suspended from their job in the 1940s for using it on air.
The rules for what is acceptable on air at a Government-controlled media organisation may not always line up exactly with what the rest of the country sees as acceptable.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The word ''nigger'' was perfectly acceptable to say in Britain up until the 1950s ...
No it wasn't. A BBC announcer was suspended from their job in the 1940s for using it on air.
The rules for what is acceptable on air at a Government-controlled media organisation may not always line up exactly with what the rest of the country sees as acceptable.
Interesting, the acceptability by the ruling elite and the ''great unwashed''. There is a disconnect today as there was 60 years ago IMHO.
Language of course evolves and develops. I remember challenging a cockney in a doctor's waiting room on the repeated use of the word ''jew boy''. I found his coninual use of the term unacceptable - he replied that it was common parlance in London, I reminded him we were in Sussex. He backed down.
I also recall in the film 'Crocodile Dundee', Dundee asking the New York burly black doorman of the posh hotel he was staying at ''what tribe you from, mate? ''. Said in another context and with malice, that would earn a verbal reprimand at the very least, but Dundee is naive and the doorman understands, he replies with a world weary grin: ''I'm from the Harlem tribe.'' No offence meant and none given.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The word ''nigger'' was perfectly acceptable to say in Britain up until the 1950s ...
No it wasn't. A BBC announcer was suspended from their job in the 1940s for using it on air.
The rules for what is acceptable on air at a Government-controlled media organisation may not always line up exactly with what the rest of the country sees as acceptable.
SOMEbody must have thought it was bad enough to take action. Are you saying only people inside the government thought it was bad, but everybody on the street wondered why they did that?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The word ''nigger'' was perfectly acceptable to say in Britain up until the 1950s ...
No it wasn't. A BBC announcer was suspended from their job in the 1940s for using it on air.
The rules for what is acceptable on air at a Government-controlled media organisation may not always line up exactly with what the rest of the country sees as acceptable.
I don't see the BBC as government controlled - that has connotations that I don't think apply to the beeb.
The one that annoys me as a Scot living down south is not Jock - that's fine but 'sweaty'. For some reason that really pisses me off.
(Sweaty sock = Jock)
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The word ''nigger'' was perfectly acceptable to say in Britain up until the 1950s ...
No it wasn't. A BBC announcer was suspended from their job in the 1940s for using it on air.
My mother knitted me a nigger brown jumper. It was a common colour for clothes in the 1970s.
Nowadays you'd probably call it 'dark' brown or 'chocolate' brown.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Does anyone still get Chinese food from the Chinky's on the corner?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
I think it comes down to whether a term is used affectionately or pejoratively. Yid (specifically Yid-oh) s fine when chanted by Tottenham Hotspur supporters (Spurs is an English soccer team with strong Jewish roots.)
It's OK to call Scots "Jock" and Yorkshiremen "Tykes". People from Tyneside self-identify as "Geordie". I would be interested in how Irish friends feel about beng called "Mick."
Is there a difference between epithets applied on the basis of race, to those based on geography?
[ 31. December 2012, 17:22: Message edited by: Drewthealexander ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
'Coloured' these days seems like a slightly less offensive alternative to the N-word. I read only yesterday on a display about a church's former clergy, a priest from Africa was described as 'coloured'. Clearly it was intended politely, but now comes across as patronising. (He would probably have been so described at the time - 1960s - but I think the info was written much more recently)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
It's OK to call Scots "Jock" ...
Not really, no.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Perhaps it would be equally useful to ask why you would need to call a Scotsman "Jock", or refer to the Chinese restaurant as "Chinky's". I can't imagine it's meant as a term of affection. If you don't know an individual well enough to use their name, you don't know them well enough to refer to them by a term they would not find complimentary.
I've always found it a bit hard to fathom why anyone would want to "rescue" these words and make them more generally acceptable. You can accuse me of being "politically correct" if you wish, but there really isn't anything political about it--it's simple good manners. "Politically incorrect" is usually just a term to justify rudeness.
However, if I can have apple pie for breakfast every morning you are more than welcome to call me a Yankee.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
"Politically incorrect" is usually just a term to justify rudeness.
Game, set, and match.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Rudeness or just thoughtlessness?
We bought our fruit and veg from a chinaman seventy years ago. We didn't know him except as a tradesman with whom we exchanged polite pleasanteries. Now that we have schoolmates, friends and neighbours who are Chinese, we'd say 'Sue is Chinese' but not 'Sue is a Chinese'.
(Teachers half a century ago could confidently say that you never encountered a badly behaved Chinese pupil. Not so now, alas.)
Another development is the demise of the -ess suffix. Women can now be poets, authors and actors, and a Jewish woman is not a Jewess – right?
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Another curious thing, is that if one watches US television programmes, it seems the Canadians and ourselves are fair game to be insulted, but if you insult anyone else, that's racist etc. Everyone else is entitled to be touchy, but the Canadians and us aren't.
Canadian insults on American TV are an interesting case. Half the joke (usually) is that the American delivering the insult is reveling in his own boorishness in the face of Canadian politeness and modesty. We do like to think of ourselves as being cooler than our neighbors to the North, but we are aware of the irony behind making fun of someone for being too polite and modest.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Another curious thing, is that if one watches US television programmes, it seems the Canadians and ourselves are fair game to be insulted, but if you insult anyone else, that's racist etc. Everyone else is entitled to be touchy, but the Canadians and us aren't.
Canadian insults on American TV are an interesting case. Half the joke (usually) is that the American delivering the insult is reveling in his own boorishness in the face of Canadian politeness and modesty. We do like to think of ourselves as being cooler than our neighbors to the North, but we are aware of the irony behind making fun of someone for being too polite and modest.
One undercurrent to this is that a number of TV shows portraying American cities are shot in Canada for tax reasons, and a number of comic screenwriters come from Canada. It's often not clear where the inside joke is aimed.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
"Yankee" and "Yank" are definitely not offensive, independent pf context. "You stupid Yank" is no worse than "You stupid American." And anyone from the South(ern US) calling me a Yankee would sound like a Civil War re-enactor. The big irony of course is that most New Englanders, while allegedly the paradigmatic Yankees, viciously hate the New York baseball team of that name and have ever heard the word in any other context.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The word ''nigger'' was perfectly acceptable to say in Britain up until the 1950s ...
No it wasn't. A BBC announcer was suspended from their job in the 1940s for using it on air.
The rules for what is acceptable on air at a Government-controlled media organisation may not always line up exactly with what the rest of the country sees as acceptable.
Can't speak for cross-pond usage, but in the US, it was
common usage up until the 1960s, but always offensive to those it was directed at. The fact that something is "acceptable" is not quite the same as saying it was not offensive.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
'Coloured' these days seems like a slightly less offensive alternative to the N-word. I read only yesterday on a display about a church's former clergy, a priest from Africa was described as 'coloured'. Clearly it was intended politely, but now comes across as patronising. (He would probably have been so described at the time - 1960s - but I think the info was written much more recently)
In the US "colored" is probably heard as old-fashioned more than offensive. Up until the civil rights movement it was the preferred term-- hence one of the oldest and most prestigious civil rights organizations here is the NAACP-- Nat'l Assoc. for the Advancement of Colored People. At one point in the 80s or 90s I can remember discussion about changing the name, but one of the older leaders of the civil rights movement (I think it was Benjamin Hooks?) argued vs. the move because the name honored the fight they'd undertaken simply to be called "colored".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence:
Intent is everything.
No, it is not everything. It can be used to mitigate the error to a point. However, ignorance of word usage is not an excuse if it is your native tongue.
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I also recall in the film 'Crocodile Dundee', Dundee asking the New York burly black doorman of the posh hotel he was staying at ''what tribe you from, mate? ''. Said in another context and with malice, that would earn a verbal reprimand at the very least, but Dundee is naive and the doorman understands, he replies with a world weary grin: ''I'm from the Harlem tribe.'' No offence meant and none given.
Saul
You do realize this was fiction?
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Another curious thing, is that if one watches US television programmes, it seems the Canadians and ourselves are fair game to be insulted, but if you insult anyone else, that's racist etc. Everyone else is entitled to be touchy, but the Canadians and us aren't.
None of those; British/English, Canadian or American can be considered races. The jibes back and forth from these sources are amongst equals, with no major animosity. Not so most of the other words used on this thread.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Let us put nigger in context no matter the era and it was always racist.
In the supposed, "it was only a description" days, white person was simply a person. A black person was a nigger. A term was employed which often had no bearing on the information conveyed. Or, if it did, the colour was the important consideration in the event. Racist no matter how one looks at it.
But then, I have heard the word black uttered with dripping vitriol, so...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Is this a tangent? If so, please forgive. I'm often struck when watching Question Time (current affairs programme on UK TV, involving local audience and panel of politicians etc) how David Dimbleby struggles to describe those members of the public who want to contribute. He'll say things like 'the man in the blue shirt', or 'the woman with the large earrings' , but never, 'the black man on the back row' or 'the Asian lady'. It's obvious why, but it sometimes seems as if he's floundering to identify the person when the most obvious thing about them might be their skin colour.
That might say more about me, though, and my generation: schoolchildren (especially very young ones) tend not to notice the skin colour of their classmates. I find that on meeting someone with different racial characteristics to my own, for the first time, I am very conscious of them. Afterwards I don't notice. Hopefully as we become more and more a multi-ethnic society such differences will be as unimportant as hair colour, dress style or accent (though that's another one).
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Children notice. It is simply not the defining characteristic unless they are taught that it should be. I have mentioned elsewhere here that my early environment was such that things like race were non-issues. I can still remember, however, the skin colours of my favourite playmates. Just as I can remember their hair, size, personalities, etc.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Let us put nigger in context no matter the era and it was always racist.
In the supposed, "it was only a description" days...
You're right, of course. So many of these words are by their nature derogatory; it's just that those to whom they have been applied have had varying degrees of power to reject the terminology.
While the Crocodile Dundee incident is fiction, it's a reasonable depiction of cross-cultural misunderstanding. For Dundee, a black person would have been an indigenous Australian, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask about their cultural origins. "Tribes" wouldn't be a preferred term, with clan, language group, people and nation being suitable terms, but the depiction of Dundee's usage would be accurate.
The doorman's unoffended response is rather far-fetched, unless the film's aim was to show him as having a good understanding of indigenous Australian issues. If that had been the case, I don't think he would have been opening doors for people.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Let us put nigger in context no matter the era and it was always racist.
In the supposed, "it was only a description" days, white person was simply a person. A black person was a nigger. A term was employed which often had no bearing on the information conveyed. Or, if it did, the colour was the important consideration in the event. Racist no matter how one looks at it.
But then, I have heard the word black uttered with dripping vitriol, so...
That last bit hits at the heart of the problem: we have different descriptors for the exact same thing, and some of these words are capable of being acceptable and some not, despite being synoyms.
Once upon a time, 'negro' was an acceptable term. It just means 'black' in a particular language. But in English, the meaning has somehow shifted so that calling someone black using the Spanish word or a derivation of that Spanish word is an awful thing.
I'm not saying the reaction is wrong, I'm just pointing out that the situation is actually very complicated and shifting, and there's no inherent reason why one synonym is okay and another isn't.
And cultural. For my part, I had absolutely no clue that 'nigger' was seen as such a dreadful word in some parts of the world (particularly USA) until the last few years thanks to interaction with people on the internet. I think it had some use in the past in relation to Aboriginals here, but we mostly found our own sloppy or derogatory words for them. So when I heard the word it was usually through some form of literature, TV or film without any American standing at my shoulder to provide the necessary gasps of shock.
It's unlikely I'm ever going to have the same kind of reaction to the word 'nigger' as someone who grew up in a culture where it's considered one of the most appalling words you can utter. I have the intellectual reaction now that it's considered an awful word, but there is no emotional reaction behind that knowledge.
[ 31. December 2012, 22:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
So many of these words are by their nature derogatory;
No, not "by their nature". That's my point. A person coming from a different background cannot look at a particular combination of vowels and consonants and know the quality of the word.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
So many of these words are by their nature derogatory;
No, not "by their nature". That's my point. A person coming from a different background cannot look at a particular combination of vowels and consonants and know the quality of the word.
Yes. Wrong term. Blame a light night and fuzzy head.
I'm not suggesting that a sequence of marks or sounds is inherently offensive out of cultural/linguistic context; just acknowledging that many terms have always been derogatory. "In common use" does not imply "acceptable".
It's not the case for all terms. Note the observations on "coloured"/"colored" above.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
ISTM, the term negro was often used in a racist fashion. An illustration circa 1650. Four men are disembarking a ship; an observer writes there were an Englishman, a Frenchman, a Spaniard and a negro. The very fact that colour was considered the defining feature is in itself racist.
/Tangent
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
The doorman's unoffended response is rather far-fetched, unless the film's aim was to show him as having a good understanding of indigenous Australian issues. If that had been the case, I don't think he would have been opening doors for people.
I am sorry, but I had to laugh whilst reading this, as it is a tad bit elitist. And, in my experience of the academic world, misplaced regardless. There are many fairly educated professional people who would have no clue as to the structures of aboriginal cultures. /tangent
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ISTM, the term negro was often used in a racist fashion. An illustration circa 1650. Four men are disembarking a ship; an observer writes there were an Englishman, a Frenchman, a Spaniard and a negro. The very fact that colour was considered the defining feature is in itself racist.
Well, yes, in exactly the same way that white people who say someone is "African" with no attempt to recognise that Africa has over 50 countries in it are being racist. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if some European circa 2013 talked about an Englishman, Frenchman, Spaniard and African on a boat.
It has virtually nothing to do with the word itself, and everything to do with the fact that people tend to use a much lower level of detail/distinction for people less like themselves.
The word is not the problem.
[ 31. December 2012, 23:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Addendum: And I don't think that making the word the problem is very helpful. It strikes me as foolish to get up in arms about the word 'nigger' being uttered no matter WHAT the context, if people don't bat an eyelid when the word 'African' or 'Asian' is used in a racist fashion.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
That's one of the things that strikes me about the way terminology has shifted over the last few decades. When I was a child in Texas and said the word "colored," my mother, raised in California, got a funny look on her face and quietly said, "We say 'negro.'" (Just as "colored" is still there in the NAACP, "Negro" is still there in the United Negro College Fund.) Then we moved back to California, where I quickly learned that I should say "black." (I guess Mom hadn't gotten that memo while we were in Texas.) A few years later, we got the term "Afro-American," then "African-American," and then the hyphen was dropped. Things have stabilized, and now we say "black" or "African American," depending upon utility, context and what we're trying to emphasize. I have often wondered if the changes in terminology mapped moves toward equality, with the stabilizing terminology reflecting that things aren't getting better for black people any more.
And then I think about the words we have used for the mentally handicapped. Has the euphemism treadmill had any positive benefit for them? "Idiot," "imbecile" and "moron" gave way to "retarded," but now that is a bad word. The kids who would have been called "retarded" when I was young now go to "special education," so now kids say "you're special" in a sarcastic way that indicates the short bus.
So I'm skeptical of campaigns to eliminate the word "retarded" from regular use -- when someone says it's hurtful, I believe them, and I stop using the word, but it's not the word that's the problem.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
/Tangent
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
The doorman's unoffended response is rather far-fetched, unless the film's aim was to show him as having a good understanding of indigenous Australian issues. If that had been the case, I don't think he would have been opening doors for people.
I am sorry, but I had to laugh whilst reading this, as it is a tad bit elitist. And, in my experience of the academic world, misplaced regardless. There are many fairly educated professional people who would have no clue as to the structures of aboriginal cultures. /tangent
I'm glad you laughed, as that was my intention. I wasn't seriously suggesting such a conscious plan behind a minor character.
And your allegation of elitism is reading my logic the wrong way round. I suggested that an American with that level of specialist anthropological knowledge would probably have a career other than doorman*, not that all educated professionals would have such knowledge.
* But of course, not impossible. After all, we are talking about a film. I was agreeing with you that we have to take care in treating the behaviour of fictional characters as how real-life people would behave, while unpacking the scene a little more and drawing an extreme logical conclusion from the unrealistic reaction of the doorman.
But we're talking about language. I was thinking a bit more about changes in the way that language is used. In my own experience, "the handicapped" has given way to "disabled people" and then to "people with disabilities", as people have expressed a preference for how they are talked about. I'm aware that "handicapped" is still in use without apparent issue in some places; I've seen Americans use it in relation to designated parking spaces for example. I'm not intending to imply any cross-cultural judgement about use of the term. But in places where it has been generally displaced I don't think that it can ever rehabilitated as an acceptable term.
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Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Yes, "handicapped" is generally fine where I live -- you see the sign for a "handicapped parking space" everywhere. If you say "disabled people," sooner or later someone will object to identifying people entirely in terms of being disabled, saying they should literally be people first: "persons with disabilities."
I think the word "handicapped" became generally okay (though some do object to it as well) because of the signs, which have the effect of making it bland, of normalizing it. There are also the handicapped parking placards that entitle you to park in a handicapped space. If you don't have a placard and you park in a handicapped parking space, in my neighborhood someone is liable to comment that your only handicap is mental.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Also -- and I really will quit for a while after this -- I once printed "African American" in a newsletter article about a church member's late husband, who had been a Tuskegee Airman, and she called me up and chewed me out because, as she told me, she is not from Africa. Which was a complaint I really didn't see coming! But I thought she had a point. Nobody calls me a European American.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The Memphis Commercial Appeal (local daily) once called Pushkin an African American in a "by the way did you realize?" sort of way. Presumably because the journo or editor was told not to use "black."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
None of those; British/English, Canadian or American can be considered races. The jibes back and forth from these sources are amongst equals, with no major animosity. Not so most of the other words used on this thread.
Nor are Wop, Dago, Paddy or Taff races.
On 'coloured', I get the impression it's more or died out here. This might be because it's an ambiguous term. In much of the world it means specifically a person of mixed descent.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
Saul, Vulpior, people - what you've all apparently missed is the key point that Gus (the black character in question) is not a doorman, but a limo driver.
Why is that key, you ask? ... OK, I'm sure I heard someone ask! Because as a limo driver, he felt empowered to wrench the antenna off his vehicle and use it in support of Dundee - an antenna that was shaped like a boomerang! (Get it? Australia, boomerang?) It's this apparent facility with the iconic Australian aboriginal weapon which prompts Dundee to repeat his question to Gus about his possible Pintinjarra tribal affiliation. To which Gus now responds "No, man. Harlem Warlords." (Earlier in the movie, Gus's response to a similar question was brusque, bordering on offended [the exchange is roughly as Vulpior suggested would be likely] but by this point Dundee's Australian forthrightness and charm has won over the cynical New Yorker and they've become friends. Not close enough to win actor Reginald VelJohnson a spot in the two Crockodile Dundee sequels - but then that was probably for the best, as a much more prominent role in the Die Hard series beckoned...)
And Organ Builder - I can report that I have, in fact, on one occasion eaten apple pie for breakfast in a Vermont diner, but the waitress's reaction to my order seemed less one of recognition of my attempt at true Yankee-ness than of faint disbelief that anyone would want a piece of a pie that had likely been sitting out all night in a display case on the counter...
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Dave W, I think you meant to refer to the Pitjantjatjara peoples.
My earliest reliable memories of US race terms date back to the late 50s. By then, "nigger" was definitely out, but "negro" was perfectly respectable; "black" was not How things have changed.... It was also quite proper to refer to "people of colour".
At the same time, apartheid was well and truly entrenched in South Africa. One of the groupings there was "Cape Coloured" to refer to those of mixed parentage. From memory, Cape Coloureds were not subjected to all the indignities to which blacks were, but still did not have the full privileges accorded to whites. Does Mary LA or anyone else know what has happened to that term? Did it stay until the system was abolished and then fade away?
It is still OK here to refer to "disabled people", and to refer to "people with a disability" would be seen as an affectation. "Disabled Parking" is a common sign, although it is linguistically a mess of a phrase.
One of Tom Sharpe's books deals with the problem. The appellation "dwarf" is all but prohibited. Instead, the approved name is "Persons of Restricted Growth" - which, of course, becomes "Porgs". An excellent example of replacing a well-known word with a much more offensive phrase.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Where I live the term negro is commonly used when talking about the non white Americans, but nobody says African Americans (a clumsy and non specific term). There is never any offence intended. I guess we Aussies tend to use more slang in the vernacular than many other countries.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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