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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Israel's troubles
HCH
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I suddenly realized that we don't seem to have a current thread on what is going on in Israel. Does anyone have any insight into the invasion of Gaza? In particular, does anyone on the Ship see a hopeful path forward for the Palestinians and the Israelis?

[ 08. January 2015, 14:25: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Ad Orientem
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No, I don't see how anything good can come out of the present situation and it seems to me that the Israeli response is totally out of proportion to the actual threat posed.
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Enoch
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If the inhabitants of a neighbouring state were peppering me daily with a stream of home made missiles, could I imagine any level of response by my own government that I would regard as disproportionate? Probably not.

Both sides in this dispute seem to demonstrate the validity of the argument, 'The tiger is a dangerous beast. When you attack it, it fights back'.

[ 20. July 2014, 21:46: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Doublethink.
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You remember the IRA terrorist campaign - we didn't invade Ireland.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Curiosity killed ...

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There've been a series of huge demonstrations in London protesting the BBC coverage of the current bombing of Gaza. Tuesday's was outside the BBC Centre in Portland Place protesting that the BBC coverage is pro-Israeli. Yesterday there was a central London march and there were more protests outside other BBC centres across the country (Manchester, Hull) yesterday and today.

The casualty figures are pretty damning:
Palestinian casualties - over 370, including women and children,
Israeli casualties: 2 civilians and 5 Israeli soldiers
(from Daily Telegraph)

And then there are the figures of the displaced - from the Independent article linked above:
quote:
Human casualties, the Israeli military says, can be avoided by obeying instructions to residents to evacuate, <snip>

However, more than 50,000 people have been forced to leave their homes and sought refuge in UN temporary shelters, mainly schools.



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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Augustine the Aleut
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I lived in Ireland during the 1970s, in one of those peculiar milieux which permitted me contact with both republicans of various stripes-- some very nasty indeed, and unionists of various stripes-- some very nasty indeed. When I left in 1978 to return to the frozen windswept wastes of the Ottawa Valley, no power on earth could convince me that the northern Irish wanted to do anything with each other that did not involve a painful death, should humiliation in their triumph not be involved.

I was wrong. The day came when they tired of killing each other and, to slightly paraphrase Seamus Heaney's words, came to sit down with the killer of each other's sons.

Should they wish to come to a peace, they can do so. The grounds are there.

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Squirrel
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In the USA it's virtually impossible to criticize anything that Israel does without being labeled a horrible anti-Semite. Even if you yourself are Jewish, you get condemned as "self-hating." The media here is slanted, and politicians mostly feel they must support Israel, no matter what it does.

A lot of the problem comes from crazy fundamentalists who see the founding of modern Israel as the fulfillment of prophesy, and any attacks on it as coming from the devil.

I wish I could say that the tide is starting to change here, but it isn't, and some of the fault lies with the antics of some of the Palestinian leaders and their supporters. Instead of taking the moral high ground in this debate, they act horribly, playing into the hands of those who wish to condemn them as barbaric terrorists who must be destroyed.

[ 21. July 2014, 00:45: Message edited by: Squirrel ]

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"Five to one."
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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
originally posted by Doublethink:
You remember the IRA terrorist campaign - we didn't invade Ireland.

I don't remember the IRA ever coming to power in Ireland and then firing 1,700 rockets at the UK. I don't remember it because it never happened. If it did, I'd also remember the subsequent British invasion of Ireland.

quote:
originally posted by Curiosity Killed:
The casualty figures are pretty damning:
Palestinian casualties - over 370, including women and children,
Israeli casualties: 2 civilians and 5 Israeli soldiers
(from Daily Telegraph)

I fail to see why casualty figures are damning. The only damning fact is that Hamas continues to fire rockets. Do you really expect the Israeli government to care more about the lives of the people of Gaza than their own democratically elected government? I sure don't.

The Palestinians have played this game for decades. Step 1...start a fight with a superior military. Step 2...make no effort to distinguish your fighters from civilians. Step 3...complain that you are helpless victims and the opposing military is killing civilians. Step 4...don't mention the fact that the military in question could easily kill all of you. Step 5...wait for the sympathy and outrage. Hamas didn't invent this technique. Initially, Arafat had some success with it in Jordan until he overplayed his hand. Fatah hasn't played that game for awhile. Hamas will continue to play as long as their international supporters enable them to do so.

Problem for Hamas is everybody knows what they are doing and why. Nobody is left to care. All of the nations in the Middle East give varying levels of support to Hamas because they hate Israel not because they love the Palestinians. Egypt and Jordan hate Hamas. Syria, Iran, Hezbollah, and Turkey have bigger fish to fry at the moment.

quote:
originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Should they wish to come to a peace, they can do so. The grounds are there.

I don't think so. Neither side really wants peace. Who believes the Israelis want peace when they do nothing about the Jewish settlements in Palestinian territory? The Palestinian position is that the Israelis should just give them everything they want no questions asked in return for peace. Even if the Israelis believed the Palestinians would give them peace, Israel is not about to give the Palestinians what amounts to status quo ante bellum.

To his credit, Abbas admits the Palestinians lost the war which is more than can be said for Hamas. Israel should probably reward the West Bank with more freedom and investment. I say probably because the Palestinian chose Hamas over Fatah for a reason. The Palestinians saw Fatah as being corrupt and didn't trust them to govern. So, neither Israel no any other nation inclined to pony up the money can be certain that giving money to Fatah will benefit anybody but Fatah. Still, I suppose it is worth the risk.

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ChastMastr
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Thank God for groups like these, who are not as well known as they should be:

Jewish Voice for Peace

quote:
JVP opposes anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim, and anti-Arab bigotry and oppression. JVP seeks an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem; security and self-determination for Israelis and Palestinians; a just solution for Palestinian refugees based on principles established in international law; an end to violence against civilians; and peace and justice for all peoples of the Middle East.
Jews for Justice for Palestinians


quote:
Jews for Justice for Palestinians is a network of Jews who are British or live in Britain, practising and secular, Zionist and not. We oppose Israeli policies that undermine the livelihoods, human, civil and political rights of the Palestinian people.
Combatants for Peace

quote:
The “Combatants for Peace” movement was started jointly by Palestinians and Israelis, who have taken an active part in the cycle of violence; Israelis as soldiers in the Israeli army (IDF) and Palestinians as part of the violent struggle for Palestinian freedom. After brandishing weapons for so many years, and having seen one another only through weapon sights, we have decided to put down our guns, and to fight for peace.
There is hope.

[Votive]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Curiosity killed ...

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We always get into this impasse when we discuss the Israeli conflict. I suspect it is because the State of Palestine is not recognised by the US - it doesn't appear on US games and maps, but the UN does recognise it as a sovereign country. The links are to the 1988 recognised state.

So from the Palestinian point of view, and that of the UK, the Gaza Strip and Israeli West Bank are annexed militarily occupied territories. They have been since 1967, and Israeli continues to encroach into that land, oppressing the lives of the Palestinians. The Israelis are now controlling the lives of those Palestinians. Have boxed the country inside a wall.

If you see this conflict from the point of view of a sovereign country being oppressed by another country, rather than a terrorist bloc within a country then you're going to see it differently.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Highfive
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The Palestinian position is that the Israelis should just give them everything they want no questions asked in return for peace.

I've heard from many Christian seminars on Israel that the Palestinian position is that all Israelis must be annihilated for there to be peace. I've met an educated Moroccan who also shares this position with the same certainty as 1 + 1 = 2, so I'm ready to side with that.

[ 21. July 2014, 07:58: Message edited by: Highfive ]

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I've heard from many Christian seminars on Israel that the Palestinian position is that all Israelis must be annihilated for there to be peace. I've met an educated Moroccan who also shares this position with the same certainty as 1 + 1 = 2, so I'm ready to side with that.

There are organisations, including Hamas, who advocate the destruction of Israel. While that is an extreme position it is not the same as advocating a genocide of Israelis. It is also worth remembering that there are more than a few Israelis who call for "greater Israel" and the removal of all Palestinians from it. The settlement activity over the last few decades of testament to an Israeli policy of ethnic cleansing.
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seekingsister
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I was thinking that the only thing that might stop this endless conflict is some sort of Palestinian Nelson Mandela or Gandhi. Someone who advocates peace over retaliation and who is extremely sympathetic to the international community.
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Jane R
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Like these people, for example?
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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Like these people, for example?

For credibility's sake it would probably have to be a Muslim person doing something like this. I also haven't found much in other news outlets about this family so it seems they aren't getting the press.
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Like these people, for example?

What a sad story. It shows that Israel has won, really, and Palestine is finished. I suppose Israel will continue to pay a price, as there is so much hatred of them now. But they don't need a peace deal now, they can just keep grabbing land.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

The Palestinians have played this game for decades. Step 1...start a fight with a superior military. Step 2...make no effort to distinguish your fighters from civilians. Step 3...complain that you are helpless victims and the opposing military is killing civilians. Step 4...don't mention the fact that the military in question could easily kill all of you. Step 5...wait for the sympathy and outrage. Hamas didn't invent this technique.

Except that this doesn't take place in a vacuum. The corrected analogy would an ever expanding set of British settlements in Northern Ireland gradually displacing the Irish.

It also ignores the period of time between the Occupation and the first intifada. An interesting counterfactual would have been if the Palestinians had gone with a 'no taxation without representation' line.

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Jane R
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seeking sister:
quote:
For credibility's sake it would probably have to be a Muslim person doing something like this...
...because the average pro-Israeli Westerner is unaware that Palestinian Christians exist? Though they probably won't for much longer, the Israeli government and the Islamic extremist groups both have it in for them.

Quetzalcoatl got the point; it's a sad story, because nobody is listening to them. And dismissing them with 'oh well, they're not Muslims so it doesn't count' makes it even more depressing.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
...because the average pro-Israeli Westerner is unaware that Palestinian Christians exist?

Probably, but that's not why I said that.

One can look at Gandhi in South Africa, or Cesar Chavez in the United States. Did great work for civil rights, but on behalf of communities that while marginalized, were not seen as the primary oppressed classes - "coloured"/Asians, or Mexican-Americans, compared to African-Americans and black Africans.

Palestinian Christians have suffered greatly, but the narrative in the public's eye is Israel (Jewish) vs. Palestinian Arabs (mostly Muslim). So a Muslim person or community preaching non-violence and peace would be more effective in getting the attention of the world, and particularly the attention of the other Muslim states that treat Israel as the epitome of evil and spout very dangerous rhetoric that further fuels the fire.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
And dismissing them with 'oh well, they're not Muslims so it doesn't count' makes it even more depressing.

I said no such thing nor did I even suggest it. But I do not think that a Christian family is going to change the mind of Muslim leaders - like Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan who said this past weekend "(Israelis) have no conscience, no honour, no pride. Those who condemn Hitler day and night have surpassed Hitler in barbarism."

Reuters

And the US is not going to change foreign policy for a Palestinian Christian family because they are probably nasty Orthodox instead of good Southern Baptists or evangelicals. (sarcasm)

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
And the US is not going to change foreign policy for a Palestinian Christian family because they are probably nasty Orthodox instead of good Southern Baptists or evangelicals. (sarcasm)

Indeed. For the pro-Israel Christian who sees the modern state of Israel as some kind fulfilment of prophesy Palestinian Christians are simply the wrong sort of Christian, the ancient type.
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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Doublethink:
You remember the IRA terrorist campaign - we didn't invade Ireland.

I don't remember the IRA ever coming to power in Ireland and then firing 1,700 rockets at the UK. I don't remember it because it never happened. If it did, I'd also remember the subsequent British invasion of Ireland.

For a long time there were believed to be IRA training camps in Ireland. And the Irish state maintained a claim in their consitution that Northern Ireland was part of their country.

Some of the bombs on the mainland, and some of those in Northern Ireland, had the same amount of explosive as the payload of a Scud missile. And they mortared the prime minister's offices, and blew up a hotel Brighton containing most of the cabinet and the prime minister. And blew up the Queen's uncle. Over 3000 people died in the troubles.

In total, 29 Israelies have been killed by rocket fire since 2001. That is not good, but repeated invasions killing hundreds of civillians are; massively disproportionate, totally counter-productive in terms of promoting moderate palestinian groups, militarilary ineffective in stopping the rocket fire, and illegal in so far as they are effectively collective punishment.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Pomona
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The thing that would probably help the most is Israel getting out of its illegal settlements. Imperialism is not really a good recipe for peace.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The thing that would probably help the most is Israel getting out of its illegal settlements.

As far as Gaza is concerned, she has, hasn't she?

I'm afraid I don't really understand the comparison between Ulster and Israel. The two terrorist campaigns are of a rather different nature, aren't they?

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I've heard from many Christian seminars on Israel that the Palestinian position is that all Israelis must be annihilated for there to be peace. I've met an educated Moroccan who also shares this position with the same certainty as 1 + 1 = 2, so I'm ready to side with that.

There are organisations, including Hamas, who advocate the destruction of Israel. While that is an extreme position it is not the same as advocating a genocide of Israelis. It is also worth remembering that there are more than a few Israelis who call for "greater Israel" and the removal of all Palestinians from it. The settlement activity over the last few decades of testament to an Israeli policy of ethnic cleansing.
They might mean Israel's end as a Jewish State.

If an American stands up and says that America is a White State and that whites should be privileged, that American would be condemned by most civilized people. Yet Israel's claim as a Jewish State which IMHO, means that Israel's Jews should be privileged above everyone else in historic Palestine is seen as the basic condition for any kind of peace from the Israeli government's side.

Why not, have a single state that is secular, multiethnic, in which all of its residing citizens enjoy equality and basic human rights? You can name it "Israel" or "Palestine", or whatever you want.

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The thing that would probably help the most is Israel getting out of its illegal settlements. Imperialism is not really a good recipe for peace.

Help who the most? Probably the Palestinian terrorists who would be able to train, organise and plan attacks with impunity.

Is that what you desire JC?

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The thing that would probably help the most is Israel getting out of its illegal settlements.

As far as Gaza is concerned, she has, hasn't she?

I'm afraid I don't really understand the comparison between Ulster and Israel. The two terrorist campaigns are of a rather different nature, aren't they?

Terrorist campaigns are the same everywhere. Civilians get killed indiscriminately for political and strategic ends.

The comparison I introduced was to suggest that, while the Northern Ireland situation seemed intractable and unresolvable, given the conceptual differences and the perceived impossibility of overcoming the human loss of thousands of lives, it proved not to be so. When the participants want peace, they will make it.

Beeswax Altar is right in saying that neither side appears to want peace--certainly Hamas and the Netanyahu faction do not. I brought in the comparison to suggest that these positions are not immutable. Things can change. Martin McGuinness can make nice with the Queen.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The thing that would probably help the most is Israel getting out of its illegal settlements. Imperialism is not really a good recipe for peace.

Help whom though? Israel has occupied a big chunk of the West Bank, and will presumably occupy more and more. The US will not really oppose this, so Israel had no need of a peace deal; the notion of a Palestinian state is now defunct. The end.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Gamaliel
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Both sides are in a cleft stick.

Hamas knows darn well that Israel will retaliate and kill civilians - unavoidable in a crowded strip of land like Gaza. That plays well on CNN etc.

Yes, it's a cynical game they are playing.

Israel on the other hand, retaliates and in so doing plays right into the hands of Hamas. But it doesn't seem to bothered about stirring up resentment for generations to come ... because it's got the guns, it's got the bombs and it's got a big buddy across the Atlantic which it can call upon if necessary.

I don't doubt that Netanyahu is right when he says that they've broadcast, leafletted and done all sorts of other things to warn Palestinian civilians to get out of the way.

But at the same time, what Israel seems more concerned about is that one of its guys has been taken hostage ... which means that it may eventually have to release Palestinian captives in order to secure his release ... and those released captives are almost certainly going to join the militants.

Israel is also in a cleft stick as if can't destroy Hamas entirely lest someone worse come in to fill the vacuum - ISIS for instance.

And you can't blame Israel for that. Who'd want ISIS as a neighbour?

So the spiral goes on and round and round and round.

It ain't a case that Israel = Good, Palestinians = Bad or vice-versa.

It's a seemingly intractable situation.

There are daft views on both sides. I've heard peace activists claim that when Palestinian lads are slinging stones at the Israeli soldiers they're not doing so in order to hurt them but as some kind of street-theatre protest or a form of 'performance art'.

Yeah, right ...

It needs cool heads all ways round. The more the violence goes on the less cool those heads become.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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quetzalcoatl
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I'm not sure about Israel's cleft stick. They have got what they want - a licence to grab land. They will put up with Hamas rockets I think, for that. Basically, they have won. A Palestinian state is a fantasy now.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Ad Orientem
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There is a way: stop supporting Israel, especially the USA, both politically and militarily.
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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
originally posted by Squirrel:
A lot of the problem comes from crazy fundamentalists who see the founding of modern Israel as the fulfillment of prophesy, and any attacks on it as coming from the devil.

Let me get this straight. The Obama administration is letting a bunch of crazy fundamentalists who aren't going to vote for them in a million years decide how they conduct foreign policy? I don't think so.

quote:
originally posted by chris stiles:
Except that this doesn't take place in a vacuum. The corrected analogy would an ever expanding set of British settlements in Northern Ireland gradually displacing the Irish.

Oh, the Israelis have big plans for the Plantation of Palestine. They'll eventually get around to allowing the settlements to decide if they want to apart of Israel or Palestine. It might be 300 or so years from now but it will happen.

quote:
originally posted by Doublethink:
Over 3000 people died in the troubles.

Indeed...3,000 people died in the Troubles. An even larger number of people have died in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. What's your point? You are also only listing the number of civilians killed by rocket fire. The Palestinians have killed far more Israeli civilians than just the 29 killed by rockets.

quote:
originally posted by Anglican Brat:
If an American stands up and says that America is a White State and that whites should be privileged, that American would be condemned by most civilized people. Yet Israel's claim as a Jewish State which IMHO, means that Israel's Jews should be privileged above everyone else in historic Palestine is seen as the basic condition for any kind of peace from the Israeli government's side.

I'm sure they'll consider that when their Middle Eastern neighbors do.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I'm afraid I don't really understand the comparison between Ulster and Israel. The two terrorist campaigns are of a rather different nature, aren't they?

One blogger makes this point of comparison.

quote:
Meanwhile, those who speak for the Israeli government go around claiming that no state could tolerate missiles being fired into its territory and that any state would have to retaliate. This is false, indeed absurd: much of British policy in Northern Ireland in the 1970s and 80s was deplorable, but though the IRA fired plenty of mortar rounds across the border, nobody seriously contemplated taking out “terror operatives” by aerial bombardment of civilian housing in the Irish Republic.
This was written when the Israeli campaign was still limited to aerial bombardment, but I think the point stands.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
There is a way: stop supporting Israel, especially the USA, both politically and militarily.

Another way: Stop supporting the Palestinians until they are willing to come to the negotiating table with realistic demands(given that their side lost).

A significant number of Americans join the majority of Israelis in not really caring about what the UN says about the actions. Israel doesn't believe the UN is impartial. We think the UN is a joke. So...there you go.

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
There is a way: stop supporting Israel, especially the USA, both politically and militarily.

Another way: Stop supporting the Palestinians until they are willing to come to the negotiating table with realistic demands(given that their side lost).

A significant number of Americans join the majority of Israelis in not really caring about what the UN says about the actions. Israel doesn't believe the UN is impartial. We think the UN is a joke. So...there you go.

Well, when you put the Palestinians in a ghetto, making it smaller and smaller all the time, what do you expect? Oh the irony! It's just a shame that Israelis and American evangelicals can see it.

Withdraw all support and let them fight it out by themselves.

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Robert Armin

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BOTH sides have done terrible things, BOTH sides have suffered terribly. Personally, I cannot see how anyone can live safely in either Palestine or Israel until the victims on both sides find the courage to forgive. When I see the scale of suffering, on BOTH sides, I find it hard to hope. However, as others have said, N Ireland also seemed impossible until fairly recently.

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stonespring
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Just because peace is incredibly unlikely, does not mean it is not worth working towards. A negotiated final-status peace seems least likely of all possible outcomes for the time being so I think that once the violence in Gaza settles the top priorities should be:

-Allowing Palestinians access to travel to school and work in Palestine and Israel without hours at checkpoints (and the risk of being an innocent victim should either side initiate violence).
-Water and other resources should be equitably distributed among all inhabitants of the region. Water use rights are probably more important than political borders in any final-status settlement.
-In Israel, Arab Israelis (I am talking about Arab Israeli citizens, not Arabs in the Occupied Territories) should be allowed and encouraged to live among Jewish Israelis, go to school with Jewish children, serve in the Israeli military, and otherwise function as first-class citizens among their Jewish compatriots. Arab Political parties should be invited to join Israeli coalition governments, and bi-ethnic parties (ie, parties that do not identify with one ethnicity over another) should play a greater role.
-The Israeli state should secularize civil marriage and divorce for all Israelis. It should include Arab cultural elements in its depictions of itself to the world. It should try to embody being a Jewish state where all non-Jews are equal citizens in fact rather than just in theory. The Jewishness of Israel should be defined by the Law of Return and the celebration of Jewish culture and the Hebrew language - but population growth of non-Jewish Israelis should not be seen as a threat. Every new Israeli citizen should be equally cherished. A secular Israeli identity that all Israelis of all religions, no religion, and all ethnicities can embrace should be developed that includes a respect for those aspects of Jewish history and culture and the Hebrew language that all Israelis can identify with. The history and culture of non-Jewish Israelis should also be included as part of Israeli history and culture.
-Although Israel and the Palestinian Authority have little say over this, the millions of Palestinian refugees that have lived for decades in Jordan, Lebanon, and elsewhere need to be allowed permanent legal residency in the mainstream community of those countries with full civil rights, even if they are not made citizens with the ability to vote.

Of course, none of these goals are possible until the current crisis in Gaza comes to some sort of resolution. But they are much more important in the short term than trying to reach a final-status agreement on borders, Jerusalem, etc.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Squirrel:
A lot of the problem comes from crazy fundamentalists who see the founding of modern Israel as the fulfillment of prophesy, and any attacks on it as coming from the devil.

Let me get this straight. The Obama administration is letting a bunch of crazy fundamentalists who aren't going to vote for them in a million years decide how they conduct foreign policy? I don't think so.
A sizable portion of Obama's donor base also has a religious reason for supporting Israel, although not the same one. And many of them are extremists when it comes to any suggestions of not unquestioningly supporting Israel. I grew up outside of New York City and learned at a very young age not to discuss the Israel/Palestine conflict in school as a handful of Jewish parents were known to complain about teachers who took any sort of position that was even vaguely critical of Israel.
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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, I've always assumed that no American president could ever give less than full support to Israel, and that includes arms.

This is part of the reason that Israel has now a full lock on the area - they are pretty untouchable. As I said earlier, they have a license to grab more and more land, so that any notion of a Palestinian state has become a pipe-dream.

But then the modern world is seeing many peoples and tribes driven to political extinction; I suppose it's a kind of cultural genocide, but not a physical one. So the Israelis are in a win-win situation.

And I don't think there is a threat from ISIS - if they got anywhere near Israel, they would be squashed like a bug.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
There is a way: stop supporting Israel, especially the USA, both politically and militarily.

Another way: Stop supporting the Palestinians until they are willing to come to the negotiating table with realistic demands(given that their side lost).

A significant number of Americans join the majority of Israelis in not really caring about what the UN says about the actions. Israel doesn't believe the UN is impartial. We think the UN is a joke. So...there you go.

If that's the basis for negotiation then Israel is stuck, at least until it has a more courageous PM.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I've always assumed that no American president could ever give less than full support to Israel, and that includes arms.

It should be noted that U.S. aid to Israel, including military aid, is the product of Congressional appropriations, not Presidential fiat. So yes, it's doubtful anyone could ever be elected U.S. President without fully supporting Israel, but the question of aid is not necessarily a presidential one.

Those who remember the Iran-Contra affair will recall that it started out as way to secure financial and military support for the Nicaraguan Contras after Congress passed the Boland Amendment outlawing such aid.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The thing that would probably help the most is Israel getting out of its illegal settlements. Imperialism is not really a good recipe for peace.

Help who the most? Probably the Palestinian terrorists who would be able to train, organise and plan attacks with impunity.

Is that what you desire JC?

Uh, it's called Palestinians being able to live in their own country. If that happened then there wouldn't be a reason for them to attack.

Please tell me why American Jews should be able to live in illegal Palestinian settlements, but not Palestinians?

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The thing that would probably help the most is Israel getting out of its illegal settlements.

As far as Gaza is concerned, she has, hasn't she?

I'm afraid I don't really understand the comparison between Ulster and Israel. The two terrorist campaigns are of a rather different nature, aren't they?

I didn't compare anything to Ulster [Confused]

I wouldn't compare the two, personally.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
]I didn't compare anything to Ulster [Confused]

I wouldn't compare the two, personally.

Apologies - I was referring to the comparison made by other posters. I could have separated out my comments more clearly.
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Stetson
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Beeswax wrote:

quote:
Let me get this straight. The Obama administration is letting a bunch of crazy fundamentalists who aren't going to vote for them in a million years decide how they conduct foreign policy? I don't think so.
Your point is well taken. Premillenialist influence over the Democrats must be close to nil.

Now, speaking only for myself...

Liberals don't find it palatable to admit the predominant role of largely secular Jewish groups in the pro-Israel lobby, because it's more fun to bash fundamentalists and Jews are one of the groups liberals are supposed to like. But it's a reality that cannot be denied.

Usual advice to google "Walt and Mearsheimer Israel Lobby".

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If the inhabitants of a neighbouring state were peppering me daily with a stream of home made missiles, could I imagine any level of response by my own government that I would regard as disproportionate? Probably not.

I think if my government was showing exactly the same response to thst neighbouring state as it had been showing for the past thirty years, with exactly the same lack of results, I wouldn't use the word 'disproportionate' so much as ...

.. um, what's the word for someone who does the same thing again and again and expects something different to happen?

And yes, exactly the same criticism can be levelled at Hamas.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I'm afraid I don't really understand the comparison between Ulster and Israel. The two terrorist campaigns are of a rather different nature, aren't they?

One blogger makes this point of comparison.

quote:
Meanwhile, those who speak for the Israeli government go around claiming that no state could tolerate missiles being fired into its territory and that any state would have to retaliate. This is false, indeed absurd: much of British policy in Northern Ireland in the 1970s and 80s was deplorable, but though the IRA fired plenty of mortar rounds across the border, nobody seriously contemplated taking out “terror operatives” by aerial bombardment of civilian housing in the Irish Republic.
This was written when the Israeli campaign was still limited to aerial bombardment, but I think the point stands.

But isn't there one pretty fundamental difference here? While Anglo-Irish relations weren't exactly at their best in the 1960s - 80s, terror was not being conducted by the Irish government but by the IRA, which may have been operating in the Irish Republic. This seems rather different to a regime that is both governing a territory and attacking its neighbour from that territory.
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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
But isn't there one pretty fundamental difference here? While Anglo-Irish relations weren't exactly at their best in the 1960s - 80s, terror was not being conducted by the Irish government but by the IRA, which may have been operating in the Irish Republic. This seems rather different to a regime that is both governing a territory and attacking its neighbour from that territory.

The article cited in the blog post contradicts this premise.

quote:
Hamas’ Hebron branch — more a crime family than a clandestine organization — had a history of acting without the leaders’ knowledge, sometimes against their interests.

<snip>

The last attack on Gaza, the eight-day Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012, targeted Hamas leaders and taught a sobering lesson. Hamas hadn’t fired a single rocket since, and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013. Neither side had any desire to end the détente.

The situation seems more parallel than you indicate.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Anglican't
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I'm afraid I don't see how it does, Croesos. The Hebron branch of Hamas is operating, obviously, in the West Bank, away from Hamas' power base in the Gaza Strip. It may or may not act with a high degree of autonomy, but it is - nominally at least - an arm of the same movement that is governing Gaza.

The parallel doesn't hold true with Northern Ireland. The IRA was not an arm of the Irish government nor was it regarded as such by the UK. The IRA, or its political representatives, did not govern the Irish Republic.

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Ethne Alba
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Meanwhile numerous people from both 'sides' in this situations are saying that they "refuse to be enemies".
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