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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Personal Relationship with Christ? Huh?
St. Sebastian

Staggering ever onward
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What are people talking about when they say you have to have a personal relationship with Christ? What are they talking about when they say they have one and how much strength and comfort they get from it? I honestly don't understand (thereby betraying that I don't have one, I suppose). I'm not comfortable with the "me and my 'ol pal, Jeeze" attitude. I can't really see God as a "pal" or even a friend. I'm in a very disconnected place right now, but even when I'm "connected" (meaning attending church regularly, praying regularly)I'm not sure I could say I have a personal relationship with Christ. Does that just mean feeling His Presence sometimes? I invariably feel joy when I receive the Holy Mysteries (sometimes for a second, sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes longer, but, so far, I never receive without feeling something). Does that count? I don't know if I have a personal relationship or not, because I don't know what people mean by the phrase. I gather that many or most consider it essential to salvation, which is a bit worrisome. Do you have one? How do you know? What do YOU mean by that?

[edited thread title for archiving]

[ 10. January 2006, 04:43: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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St. Seb

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AdamPater
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I don't understand it either, especially if I try to understand it [Help]

A minister once told me that a personal relationship with Jesus is just like any other personal relationship, which puzzled me: Jesus doesn't have coffee or share pizza with me like my other personal friends (honestly not meaning to be trivial).

I know I have thought that I had a "personal relationship with Jesus", but when I stopped to think about it, any meaning seemed to centre on the emotional responses I felt, and which were largely open to manipulation and invention given access to appropriate music and other material. So I stopped even thinking about the term, and try to get on with being a Christian (whatever that might seem to mean from time to time).

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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I guess I usually mean that a personal relationship with the Christ -- as in, being redeemed by Him as elder brother/firstborn/kinsman-redeemer --

Having made a personal, conscious surrender to His Lordship --

Is a bit different from having a connection, however comforting, however involved, with the institution known as His church.

The latter can mean many wonderful things -- but you can lay claim to it and enjoy it and get a lot out of it, without ever having personally, yourself, fallen at His feet and submitted to His right to claim you.

Sure, some people sound like they're talking about their Handy Dandy Pocket Jesus with the Special Clip-On Sin-Eraser --

It's just that we've digested what we can of Scripture, and have come to realize the intimate, individual, personal claim on our hearts from the Messiah. We don't mean it to sound all trite and sound-bitey. Sorry if it does.

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LutheranChik
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quote:
Does that just mean feeling His Presence sometimes? I invariably feel joy when I receive the Holy Mysteries (sometimes for a second, sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes longer, but, so far, I never receive without feeling something). Does that count?
Yes. But that's not all of it, just as having "snuggly" feelings toward one's significant other isn't all there is to having a healthy, committed personal relationship with that person. A personal relationship also presupposes living and speaking as if one's Beloved matters in an immediate, significant way in one's life, and isn't just an abstraction or an occasional encounter.

All of us who have been called into relationship with Christ have a personal relationship with Christ -- the Christ who knows us better than we know ourselves, who adopts us as sisters and brothers into the household of God. But I think the problem with certain strains of contemporary Christianity is that it can't make the distinction between a personal relationship and a private relationship -- my pastor refers to the latter as "me-n-Jesus under the blanket with a flashlight." We're not only called into a transformative relationship with Christ, but also into relationship with the other people of God. And...we are also called to do justice and act mercifully in the world -- to be engaged in the world, not wrapped up in what another pastor-type friend of mine calls the "My Boyfriend Jesus" Syndrome.

P.S. In my own life, I have found that putting effort into my prayer life -- following a pattern of fixed prayers, extemporaneous prayer, and so on -- as well as regular devotional reading of the Bible (as opposed to the thinky analytical reading I tend to do) has exponentially deepened my experience of closeness to Christ. A good book on this topic is Loving Jesus by Mark Allen Powell, a NT professor at Trinity Seminary in Columbus. It's an Augsburg Fortress book.

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mousethief

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Jesus has never had pizza with me, either, AdamPater. Or called me on the phone. Or put His arm around my shoulder.

Members of His Church have done all those things, however.

The latter seems far "real" to me than any hypothetical "personal relationship with Jesus".

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LutheranChik
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I think some of you are being perhaps overly dismissive of the idea that one can have an authentic experience of being loved/cared for/communicated with by Christ.

If you read the lives of the great saints of the Church, you will note that they had what might be called a personal relationship with Christ.

The thing is -- subjective experience is not the measure of Christianity, or of the quality of one's own Christian life. Christ calls us into relationship through our baptisms, and keeps us there in the context of the Church -- the community of the people of God. And, furthermore, Christ calls us to be "little Christs" for our neighbors. And the great people of faith I cited would be the first people to point out these things.

I think an overemphasis on a "personal relationship" with Jesus is a product of a culture of extreme individualism, where we've become increasingly inward-turned and focused on our own subjectivity.

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Ian Climacus

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I heard a talk which made mention of the difference between a personal relationship with Jesus and an individual relationship with Jesus.

The Orthodox speaker, so you can probably see where this is going and where my beliefs lie, said the Orthodox answer to "Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?" is "Yes!" However, we do not have an "individual" relationship with Jesus: at least in Orthodox eyes, we meet him through the church (which Mousethief made reference to).

I think "personal" has now taken on the connotation of "individual" -- me and Jesus and we're alright. I don't subscribe to that interpretation; I am called to a relationship with the thrice-blessed Trinity however, and in that sense I see it as personal.


I have a similar view as St Sebastian in that I don't seem God as my 'buddy', but I think LutheranChik is right on the money when she says the Saints had a personal relationship with Christ. There can be an overemphasis which, as she said, leads to individualism, but I think a personal relationship with God is necessary and I'd say we have it. I think the "Jesus is my buddy" is a rather extreme version of the 'personal relationship'.

Ian.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
If you read the lives of the great saints of the Church, you will note that they had what might be called a personal relationship with Christ.

And this is why they are great saints, and I'm merely a mediocre sinner.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
If you read the lives of the great saints of the Church, you will note that they had what might be called a personal relationship with Christ.

And this is why they are great saints, and I'm merely a mediocre sinner.
Work on it a bit and you can be a great sinner, like me. [Big Grin]

I like what Ian's Orthodox speaker said about the difference between a personal relationship and an individual relationship. I feel like I have a personal relationship with Jesus, but he's not All Mine and I don't think I would have that relationship if the church had not shown the way.

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whitelaughter
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quote:
Originally posted by St. Sebastian:
What are people talking about when they say you have to have a personal relationship with Christ? What are they talking about when they say they have one and how much strength and comfort they get from it? I honestly don't understand (thereby betraying that I don't have one, I suppose). [snip] I invariably feel joy when I receive the Holy Mysteries (sometimes for a second, sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes longer, but, so far, I never receive without feeling something). Does that count?

That *definitely* counts.
By definition, a personal relationship will be different from that of others; you are an individual, and Jesus is going to treat you as an individual.
What Jesus' friendship means to me? As you've already realised, it's not a beer and skittles friendship. (However, remember that your mortal friends are made in the image of God and that Jesus regards your treatment of the poor and defenceless as the way you treat him! Treat your friends with the care and awe you would Christ and you'll find Christ in your circle of friends).

Jesus has always been there for me in crisis. No one else can say that. My family was useless, and I've only mastered the art of finding decent friends in the last few years (mostly taught by Himself). When life has been pointless, my hopes shattered, my energy gone - a faint presence was there, caring whether I lived or died; whether I cared or not. It was faint; I think the only reason I could sense it was that everything else was dead.
I learnt to trust that presence, and to live in the knowledge that He'd be there next time. That trust caused His presence to flower - or at least made me more open to Him.
And then - for completely different reasons, I was convinced I was probably going to Hell. I'd seen so many 'religious' people water down their beliefs into mud that it seemed likely that the Hell & brimstone preachers were the last people true to God's teachings - or that more likely, even they had watered down God's truth. And I knew that the worst criminals are the people most convinced that they're completely justified, so any beliefs that I or others weren't scum were more likely proof of my depravity than they were evidence of hope.

I was terrified of Hell, until a thought drifted into my head - it'd didn't matter if I went to hell, so long as Jesus stayed with me!
Of course, I immediately realised the implications of that - both the fear of hell and the fear of going to hell faded like mist, and I laughed myself silly while my heart danced with gratitude.

And I changed. You know how speak of being alone in our minds? In the house of my mind, there is a guest room, where Jesus comes to visit. All too often, I'm too busy to listen - and I realise I'm still treating him as a guest rather than my Lord. But it is a friendship, based on shared experiences: or more accurately based on the many messes he's pulled me out of.
Mind you, it's not enough. I desperately need to be closer to Him. Hopefully other people's stories will make me realise what I need to do to be a better friend to my Lord.

In a nutshell -
When all possible hope is gone, the Impossible Hope is there! You won't have the strength to look or the energy to care, but you will know.

After a few crises, it becomes easy to trust Him. Trust is essential in friendship.

When you're facing down disaster, He's got your back - and that makes the problem bearable (not necessarily solvable, but at least bearable).

When you've been through those three stages, you'll be a better friend than I, and be closer than I to the best friend you'll ever have.

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
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Lutheranchik:
quote:
If you read the lives of the great saints of the Church, you will note that they had what might be called a personal relationship with Christ.

The only bothersome version of this, IMO, are the female saints who have had personal, visionary weddings with Christ with wedding rings and all. I think some women just can't let go of the idea of That Special Day even if they've decided to be virgins for Christ. And it gives me sort of the vision of Christ as some kind of potentate like King Solomon with a mess of chaste concubines. Ew.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Mudfrog
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Personal relationship with Jesus means exactly 'what it says on the tin'.

It means that you have a communion with him, a conversation in prayer, that you have the promise of his presence and his love within your heart.
It means that in a profound way, he knows your name and you walk with him in faith.

As far as the personal bit goes, it means that it's something that is real to you, experienced at first hand rather than because you joined in with the crowd. It's a way of expressing a relationship with God that you yourself have accepted as opposed to assuming you have a faith because your family/culture/religious habits are Christian.

As far as being a friend, did Jesus not say, "I no longer call you servants, I have called you friends?"

"You're my friend and you are my brother,
Even though you are a King.
I love you more than any other,
So much more than anything."

And from one of my favourite hymns (O sacred head):

What language shall I borrow
To thank thee dearest friend
For this thy dying sorrow
Thy pity without end?
O make me thine for ever
And should I fainting be,
Lord, let me never, never
Outlive my love to thee.


To have a deep, conscious, individually expressed, experience of friendship with the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't have to descend to the 'Jesus is my boyfriend' level but can be a wonderfully profound love that can be expressed or sustained with or without sacraments.

[ 10. November 2005, 08:24: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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Banner Lady
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I had a very personal and life changing encounter with my Saviour 26 years ago. I was newly married, and had just had an argument - a very nasty and circular sort of argument with my spouse. To my disgust he took himself off to bed, and left me to stew in my own poison. I was feeling hurt, misunderstood and extremely disillusioned with his responses. I took myself out on to the balcony to let off some steam. And I remember asking the night sky "What on earth do I do now? I've signed that rotten bit of paper - I'm committed - but all I want to do is run away - what do I do?"

A small thought trickled through my mind - "well, I suppose a Christian would pray." At that stage I had only just begun going to church; but I came back inside, knelt down on the seagrass matting in front of a bomby old armchair and began to tell God exactly how I felt. I had no idea what praying was, and that was the best and most honest thing I could do. And when I had finished, I just sat back on my heels and waited - because I didn't know what else to do.

The only way I can explain what happened next is to say I knew I was not in the room alone. And it felt as though Jesus was sitting in the armchair. The most amazing feeling began to wash over me - I felt enfolded in love. It was like being a small child picked up and sat on His lap and everything negative in me simply drained away. Because that is what overwhelming Love does. Nothing negative can stay in that Presence. One by one He dealt with all my insecurities (and I had a mountain of them) and they drained away too. And when I was totally at peace, the Presence simply faded away.

I sat in the chair for a long time, just amazed. And then, because I was sleepy, I went to bed. In the morning I was the first one awake, and I lay there wondering if it had all been real. But then I felt this vast well of Love inside me that hadn't been there before, and I knew it was.

My other half, however, had known nothing of this, and he opened one eye very gingerly because he didn't know whether he was going to be hit by a pillow, a jug of water, or a barrage of words considering how we had parted company the night before. It is his testimony that I really did encounter something special that night - because he went to bed leaving a screaming shrew behind him and woke up to what was an angel of light by comparison.

Did I SEE Jesus? I had my head bowed and my eyes shut and if you had paid me a million dollars I could not have opened them, I felt so utterly small and unclean. I was such a baby Christian I had not even read all of Genesis - but when I did get to Isaiah, I really understood his words "Woe unto me for I am a man of unclean lips" That's what it is like before God, but
His love is real. His presence is real. Desire it with all your heart.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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Custard
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I guess I'd want to ask how you understand passages like this:

quote:
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
(John 14:15-21, NIV)

quote:
16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 3:16-19 (NIV)

For me, a personal relationship with Christ means that by his awesome grace, Christ dwells in me by his Holy Spirit, teaching me and transforming me more and more into his likeness.

God is personal, so of course it's possible, by his grace, to have a personal relationship with him. It's also mind blowing, and I completely agree that it is not something that should be treated lightly.

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blog
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Stamp thine image in its place.


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PerkyEars

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For me a 'personal relationship' means a perceptable interactivity between me and a non-theoretical God who is a) really out there and b) actually interested in me.

Obviously this interactivity is not of the same sort as having a beer with friends. But it's "the same" in that it is a two-way thing. We try and love, trust, worship, obey, learn, and He supports, teaches, surprises and (a thousand times boggle) loves us back.

How we carry out our side of the relationship obviously varies hugely - so it's not really surprising that how he interacts with us individually varies too. I would say for me it happens in assorted ways - through sensing His presence, through feeling drawn towards certain other people and groups, through changes He makes in me, through prayer, through the patterns of how things go, how questions are answered in surprising ways. All of the above are complicated, subjective things and yet it all adds up somehow to a sense that one is interacting with a real Person.

quote:
I invariably feel joy when I receive the Holy Mysteries (sometimes for a second, sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes longer, but, so far, I never receive without feeling something). Does that count?
Yes!

quote:
And this is why they are great saints, and I'm merely a mediocre sinner.

I strongly think its utter bollocks that the 'personalness' of ones relationship with Jesus is a measure of sanctity. I do experience it as personal but I am in no way more holy than any newbie Christian. Actually I would say that sometimes (often) people who are given more obvious evidence of his action and presence in their lives have it because we are the doubting Thomases and we need it. [Hot and Hormonal]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Mudfrog; in my evangelical charismatic days I tried to have, and desperately wanted, what you describe.

It never happened, and I have to conclude it's not for everyone.

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Evo1
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Personal relationship?

I would say I have a personal relationship with Jesus and that I've felt his active care many times - just to get that out of the way first.

But what do I mean by "personal relationship".

Here's an example of a non-personal relationship. In the UK, there is a personal allowance of £4,000 plus. That means I can earn this much every year and not be taxed. Very generous. But I don't feel a personal relationship with Tony Blair. I don't feel that he has individually picked me out of the crowd and handed this gift to me. No, I just get it because I a UK taxpayer - one of the millions.

With Jesus, I feel that he has forgiven me all of my sins. I feel like I am part of the body of Christ and receive that forgiveness as one member of the body. But much more than this, I feel he has individually singled me out as well - that he has taken the trouble to get to know me for who I am and has forgiven my individual sins as well as the corporate sin of mankind.

Incidentally, I am always impressed with my kid's teachers who do this. The ones that don't just teach the class (though of course they do this as well) but teach the individuals. Come to think of it, that could stand for almost every profession.

Love,

Evo1

[ETA - almost forgot, if people tell you that you must feel you have a personal relationship to be saved, ask them how on earth they think they are helping you by saying that. FWIW I don't believe it.)

[ 10. November 2005, 09:02: Message edited by: Evo1 ]

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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hatless

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quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
For me a 'personal relationship' means a perceptable interactivity between me and a non-theoretical God who is a) really out there and b) actually interested in me.


This is the closest to my understanding of it. I don't go for the 'me and my mate Jesus,' stuff - it's imaginary friend territory. On the other hand, our knowledge of God can't just be at the objective level. God is not a thing to be inspected, discussed and thought about. God can only be known if approached by the whole of us, with all our fears and cares uppermost. There is only any meeting with God in so far as there is challenge and change in us. It has to make a difference, otherwise God is just a word or idea or philosophical toy.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Evangeline
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To me, I feel assured of my personal relationship with Christ through amazing personal response to prayer. Ever since I started praying, when I was about 6yo despite not belonging to a church going family, in my darkest moments I have been saved by God reaching out to me despite my backsliding and sin even with the knowledge of God's incredible goodness to me personaly. I could not be a Christian merely by some sort of intellectual assent to the bible (whatever that means) if it wásn't for God's personal answers to prayer.
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Nicodemia
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Mudfrog posted:

quote:
Personal relationship with Jesus means exactly 'what it says on the tin'.

It means that you have a communion with him, a conversation in prayer, that you have the promise of his presence and his love within your heart.
It means that in a profound way, he knows your name and you walk with him in faith.

As far as the personal bit goes, it means that it's something that is real to you, experienced at first hand rather than because you joined in with the crowd. It's a way of expressing a relationship with God that you yourself have accepted as opposed to assuming you have a faith because your family/culture/religious habits are Christian.

And then Karl LB said

quote:
Mudfrog; in my evangelical charismatic days I tried to have, and desperately wanted, what you describe.

It never happened, and I have to conclude it's not for everyone.

I'm with you all the way there, Karl! I tried, in my fundie days, oh! how I tried, to imagine Jesus beside me, holding my hand, whispering in my ear, whatever, and just couldn't! If I expressed this to anyone they accused me of not being "baptised in the Spirit", or even of not being a "proper Christian" because I couldn't have "made a proper committment to Jesus".

I don't think the "warm fuzzies" are for everyone. Not that it's wrong if that's your thing - just that some of us are different.

So now I do what Jesus told us to do - pray to God the Father, thank him for his Son, do my best to follow the teaching of Jesus (which best is not good enough), and hope there really is a life after death.

If that isn't enough - tough!

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Teufelchen
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Here's a thought which may interest you (or not): Jesus may not have pizza with us, but he does break bread and share wine with us. Although we ritualise it, the sacrament of communion is a manifestation of our relationship with Christ which is at once personal and cosmic.

T.

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Matt Black

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Yeah, wot about the Eucharist? How much more personal can you get (with apologies to Mandy in LoB)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Eucharist? Personal, yes. Relationship, yes. But not personal relationship. Somehow that phrase has connotations that are more than the sum of its parts.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Eucharist? Personal, yes. Relationship, yes. But not personal relationship. Somehow that phrase has connotations that are more than the sum of its parts.

???

Is this a political correctness thing then? Sorry, you have totally lost me here.

[ETA, just tickled myself imagining karl getting married and the words: "do you take this woman to be your lawful wedded wife" and him saying, "Lawful: yes Wedded: yes but not Lawful, Wedded"]

[ 10. November 2005, 10:21: Message edited by: Evo1 ]

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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And I'm trying to get what on earth political correctness has to do with this. But let's let that one slide.

All I'm saying is that the word "personal" has certain connotations, and the word "relationship" has others, but the phrase "personal relationship" has completely different connotations. Is that so hard to understand?

Perhaps by "political correctness" you meant that "political" means one thing, "correctness" another, but put together they mean something completely different. If so, then you're on the right track, yes.

For example, suppose I'm spared and I get a telegram from the King (for so it will probably be) on my 100th birthday.

It's personal, because it's addressed to me. It represents that there is a relationship between me and the King - monarch and subject. But it doesn't mean I have a personal relationship with the King.

[ 10. November 2005, 10:27: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Matt Black

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Would 'personal encounter' be more helpful?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's personal, because it's addressed to me. It represents that there is a relationship between me and the King - monarch and subject. But it doesn't mean I have a personal relationship with the King.

Good analogy, let's tale it a little further. Is that even if the King took to writing to you every week and you were regularly chatting with him?

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Possibly, but it's still of the "was that God? Might have been, not sure" type.

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Jack the Lass

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I really hope this doesn't kill the thread stone dead, because I'm sure there's plenty more to be said, but a very good thread on this subject is preserved in Limbo:

Personal Relationship with God - Is it a myth?

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Matt Black

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I think, if we're honest, that's what all of us vaguely evo/charismatic types would say - or at least darned well ought to say: "we think that was God, but we can't be sure because He doesn't (ATM) have flesh and skin with which to touch us"; all part of this 'seeing through a glass darkly' thing, I guess.

[ETA - reply to Karl's last post]

[ 10. November 2005, 10:40: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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o00o
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# 3147

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:

Karl LB said

quote:
Mudfrog; in my evangelical charismatic days I tried to have, and desperately wanted, what you describe.

It never happened, and I have to conclude it's not for everyone.

I'm with you all the way there, Karl! I tried, in my fundie days, oh! how I tried, to imagine Jesus beside me, holding my hand, whispering in my ear, whatever, and just couldn't! If I expressed this to anyone they accused me of not being "baptised in the Spirit", or even of not being a "proper Christian" because I couldn't have "made a proper committment to Jesus".

I don't think the "warm fuzzies" are for everyone. Not that it's wrong if that's your thing - just that some of us are different.


I am so glad to hear other people say this. I grew up in a conservative evangelical church and have never really felt whatever it is everyone else seemed to feel that caused them to shut their eyes, raise their arms in the air and look ernest. In my blackest moments I have thought that the whole lot was a fraud and just psychological manipulation of guilable people in an emotional environment.

I think it is dangerous to insist that a 'personal relationship with God' is essential for salvation. As a result of hearing this week in week out all the good Christian disciplines I built in to my life (quiet times, church twice on a Sunday and once in the middle of the week, etc etc) were driven by guilt, and desperate attempts to get whatever this elusive personal telephone to Jesus was, rather than anything positive.

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11 o'clock - time for a Little Something

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Demas
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Is there a difference between a 'personal relationship with God' and a 'personal relationship with Christ'?

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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LutheranChik
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# 9826

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Teufelchen: YES! You know, I was actually in bed last night when I thought about that "pizza with Jesus" comment, and it suddenly occurred to me that we have bread and wine with Jesus every week. (Obviously this insight wasn't enough to rouse me out of bed and log onto the 'puter again.)

quote:
For me a 'personal relationship' means a perceptable interactivity between me and a non-theoretical God who is a) really out there and b) actually interested in me.

Yes; exactly. And I believe I have that; in fact, after several years of active hostility toward Christianity, this "perceptable interactivity" with a definitely non-theoretical God who was out there, interested in me and in fact not about to give up on me was what got me to say, one restless evening, "All right -- you win. You win!" (And then I said, to myself, "Oh, shit " -- kind of a C.S. Lewis, most-reluctant-convert-in-Christedom moment. But it got better. [Biased] )

So I've had, and have, the experience of Christ made present to us in the context of the Church, in Word and Sacrament and in other people "being Christ for me"; and I've had that more intimate experience of close interaction with God through prayer and meditation. And from my perspective, the former is not only as important but more important than the latter; just as in a life partnership, it's the working out of one's relationship every day, which isn't always an easy or pleasant or romantic thing, is more important than "peak experiences." I cherish my little treasure of peak experiences with God, but if I had to depend on them to bolster my faith, I wouldn't be here.

And, finally, just to touch on something Ian said several posts ago -- Mark Allen Powell puts it this way: "Our relationship with Jesus always has a personal element, but it's never private."

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hatless

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# 3365

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Is there a difference between a 'personal relationship with God' and a 'personal relationship with Christ'?

And do people speak of a personal relationship with Mary, or Gregory of Nyssa?

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Nicodemia
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Demas asked

quote:
Is there a difference between a 'personal relationship with God' and a 'personal relationship with Christ'?

Only in as far as I simply cannot even begin to imagine a relationship with an almighty, omniscient,creator etc. etc. God, who is huge, but can't be measured, etc., whereas Jesus was incarnate, and ate, slept and otherwise functioned as a normal human being. I can, just, imagine, being there with him 2000 years ago, (always thought I was the Martha sort [Biased] ) but having the same sort of relationship now, with someone who "isn't there", can't touch me, maybe listens, but doesn't reply in a voice I can hear, by letter, phone or email, well, no.

Like I said, we are all different.

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hatless

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Demas asked

quote:
Is there a difference between a 'personal relationship with God' and a 'personal relationship with Christ'?

Only in as far as I simply cannot even begin to imagine a relationship with an almighty, omniscient,creator etc. etc. God, who is huge, but can't be measured, etc., whereas Jesus was incarnate, and ate, slept and otherwise functioned as a normal human being. I can, just, imagine, being there with him 2000 years ago, (always thought I was the Martha sort [Biased] ) but having the same sort of relationship now, with someone who "isn't there", can't touch me, maybe listens, but doesn't reply in a voice I can hear, by letter, phone or email, well, no.

Like I said, we are all different.

It's the other way, for me. I can't imagine a personal relationship with Mary or a 'saint,' and only sort of with Jesus in so far as I relate to God in him. It's the relationship with God that I see as personal - in a way that actually makes me properly personal.

It's the fact that God doesn't reply in any reliable way that is part of this. God just isn't there in that way. When we seek God, but realise that we don't know what God is like or likely to be doing, then we open our eyes that bit wider and can discover him. Only it's a new realisation every time we encounter God, so that it makes sense to talk about God coming to us.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's personal, because it's addressed to me. It represents that there is a relationship between me and the King - monarch and subject. But it doesn't mean I have a personal relationship with the King.

Good analogy, let's tale it a little further. Is that even if the King took to writing to you every week and you were regularly chatting with him?

Somewhere in there is something I believe to be important about our relationship with God/Christ. That is He is Lord and King, and deserves to be treated with the due reverence that that position holds. So, our relationship with Him can never be casual unless, in His love, grace and mercy, He choses to casually drop by. But, that's contingent on Him, not us, so that casual encounter may be life changing, wonderful and special - but probably isn't for everyone. And, will be different for everyone. Let me recount one such incident in my life. When I first arrived at university I got in before most other students, so come dinner time I was the only person on my corridor going down (the others either not yet arrived, or still unpacking, or out to dinner with parents), and sat on my own at the end of a table. A few minutes later two obvious second years came and asked if they could sit next to me (the dining hall was busy because two different halls were using it that day), they were talking about what they'd been up to during the vacation. They turned to me, saw my id card with my name on it and said "Alan Cresswell! We've just been to a meeting of Methsoc people talking about you" (it turned out no one had ever had so many letters sent to the chaplain saying "this guy is coming and may be interested in joining Methsoc" - minister and lay worker at home, leader of the Crusader group I was in, my own "I'm interested" plus my "I'm interested" notes to the CU forwarded to the chaplain). So, after dinner I was entertaining two new friends in my room (and, finding out the first rule of uni is that you need more than two mugs) when the Methsoc person who was supposed to come see me turned up, quickly followed by CU reps. That's the sort of thing I believe God graceously does when we need it. But, we're each going to experience that in different ways and at different times; and some of us may not need to experience that at all.

The other bit is that even though He's Lord and King, He's approachable. The "personal" bit of the "personal relationship" is that we don't need to find some emissary to see the King for us. We don't even need to arrange an appointment through some secretary. Not that that right to just walk into the throne room of God means that there's any loss of due reverence to Him.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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LutheranChik
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I've picked up on a kind of reluctance on the part of some to dare to believe that Jesus Christ -- the Cosmic Christ of that great hymn in Colossians, "for whom and through whom all things were made" -- takes a personal interest in them, or is accessible to them.

Perhaps serendipitously, I'm in an online book discussion group on liturgy as prayer with Dr. Lisa Dahill, Professor of Theology at Trinity Seminary in Columbus, who wrote a neat little book on the spirituality of corporate worship called Truly Present -- her areas of interest are liturgics, the theology of worship, etc. Anyhow, we've been talking about self-attack -- the self-talk we do to ourselves that tells us we're not "good enough" to be in church, not "good enough" to seek a close relationship with God, etc. She cites the story in Scripture where the disciples have had a bad night fishing, and Jesus comes along and tells Peter to throw their net over on the other side of the boat. Peter does, and the net is so filled with fish that the boat starts to sink, and the terrified Peter says something to the effect of, "Get away from me, Lord, because I'm a sinful man." Of course Jesus doesn't get away from him; quite the opposite.

God always comes down ; God doesn't expect you, nor can you, work your way up to some special, "worthy" place to receive God. Now, how God comes down in each of our lives, I think, is different, so one person's experience will not be another's. But I would truly caution people here to not think that they're somehow closed off from God's intimate presence because there's something wrong with them or not "holy" enough about them or whatever. Trust me on this.

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Simul iustus et peccator
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Custard
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# 5402

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Is there a difference between a 'personal relationship with God' and a 'personal relationship with Christ'?

Ummm - no. Both are a way of talking about how God works in us through his Holy Spirit.

quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
And do people speak of a personal relationship with Mary, or Gregory of Nyssa?

Not as far as I know. But then, they didn't promise to live in us by the Holy Spirit.

In terms of knowing how an experience was God, I'm more conservative than charismatic. I'd say we know it's what God is saying if it's in the Bible... Warm fuzzies can be a consequence of relationship with God, but are not an essential part.

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blog
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Stamp thine image in its place.


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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's personal, because it's addressed to me. It represents that there is a relationship between me and the King - monarch and subject. But it doesn't mean I have a personal relationship with the King.

Good analogy, let's tale it a little further. Is that even if the King took to writing to you every week and you were regularly chatting with him?

Love,

Evo1

That would start to be a personal relationship. However, since God doesn't write to me every week, and we don't have chats (at least not two-way ones), the point is moot.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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St. Sebastian

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Thanks, everyone, for the wonderful posts. Just wanted to say I'm not ignoring the thread, but it's a busy day in Hell and I don't have time to digest it all and post something worthwhile. But I will!

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St. Seb

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Evo1
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# 10249

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
That would start to be a personal relationship. However, since God doesn't write to me every week, and we don't have chats (at least not two-way ones), the point is moot.

Sorry, I was being analogous - as I thought you were - you were originally talking about the Eucharist I think. (I added the bit about chatting (prayer)) So would you like to further the analogy on this basis? It was yours after all.

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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chukovsky

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This is hard...

I think I can work out more easily what it is like to have a personal relationship with God the Father because, after all, he is my Father. Even if I don't have any direct communication with him or experience of him, he made me, he cares for me, he holds me when things are bad.

I'm not in the slightest bit convinced a personal experience has a whole lot to do with salvation. Perhaps it's something that bolsters those with weaker or younger faiths, but then since they have weaker or younger faiths they tend to assume their experience is the "right" one? This would be why, although by no means everyone who has a personal "experience" is evangelical about having one, some people are and wonder why some other people don't.

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This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
That would start to be a personal relationship. However, since God doesn't write to me every week, and we don't have chats (at least not two-way ones), the point is moot.

Sorry, I was being analogous - as I thought you were - you were originally talking about the Eucharist I think. (I added the bit about chatting (prayer)) So would you like to further the analogy on this basis? It was yours after all.

Love,

Evo1

I don't see any analogy between a personal letter from someone and the Eucharist.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Evo1
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Er?

You were explaining how the Eucharist was both personal and showed a relationship element but was not a "personal relationship".

When I questioned you on this, you used the analogy of a King sending you a letter.

Now as you have now accepted that repeated receipts would indicate a personal relationship, and given that many Christians receive the Eucharist on a regular basis, I am wondering why you now appear to be distancing yourself from your own analogy?

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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I did not link the telegram from the King directly with the Eucharist.

Lessee...

My payslip. I get one every month, and it's personal. But I do not have a personal relationship with the payroll department.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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scoticanus
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# 5140

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I talk to Him quite a lot, either formally in church and "at prayer" or just when going about my daily business, and I have the feeling He listens.

So it feels like a personal relationship.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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I talk to Him, but I don't "feel" He listens - i hope He does. He certainly doesn't talk back. That's why it doesn't feel like a personal relationship.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I did not link the telegram from the King directly with the Eucharist.

Lessee...

My payslip. I get one every month, and it's personal. But I do not have a personal relationship with the payroll department.

Right, your example of the King was not analogous to the Eucharist. Are you suggesting that the pay slip scenario is? I'll hang fire with my response to a yes here since I just got burned with the King one. [Biased]

If not, would you like to give me something you think is analogous so that I might understand what you are getting at when you deny that the personal and relationship elements of the Eucharist are indeed a "personal relationship?"

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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R.A.M.
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I'm a little concerned about how quickly people throw aside the idea of God having Pizza with us. Surely the point is that God IS there when I'm having pizza, and he IS there when I go for coffee. Where-ever we go Jesus comes with us, whther we acknowledge His presence or not.

Having accepted the fact that he's there then one can recognise what I would call my personal relationship with God. Which is the quiet support and confidence I gain when thinking about Him at hard times, or its the joy I feel when I see Him in the world around me. As for a direct relationship on the usual terms, I experience that every time the Holy Spirit works through both friends and strangers; its what i feel every time I know I am not alone. In this it is a really mundane everyday faith. I don't for a second believe it is essential for salvation, but I wouldn't go without it for a second.

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Formerly Real Ale Methodist
Back after prolonged absence...

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