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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UM: The Bible Code
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
I bought a computer magazine today that included on the 'free' cover DVD some stuff about 'The bible code' (not exactly an UM, but this would seem the best place to raise the subject). It seems that the bible code is mainstream enough for inclusion with a computer magazine to be unremarkable - perhaps we should publish a book about the hidden meanings of Christianity.
I haven't played this DVD on my PC (in case it gets possessed by demons or somesuch), but from what I have gathered from browsing through the 'Oddball beliefs' section of my local bookshop, 'The bible code' is a method of taking every fiftieth (?) letter of the Hebrew Old Testament, putting them together and getting the text of Hamlet, the winner of the 3.30 at Doncaster next Thursday and a message of welcome from Emperor Zligg from the planet Traaal.
Of course, it might be that I'm just a narrow minded religious bigot unwilling to face up to the truth about these hidden messages - would anyone care to vote (on second thoughts, please don't)?
So, how high on the rum and uncanny scale does the bible code rate, and if I read the book and learn Hebrew will I gain enlightenment (or at least, be the curse of bookmakers everywhere)?
[ 10. March 2003, 01:26: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The whole thing looks pretty stupid to me. And I read Hebrew.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
The problem is learning Hebrew by next Thursday!
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Why by next Thursday, Ann?
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
so a bet can be placed on the 3:30 at Doncaster. At least that's what I'd wager Ann meant.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Ah. I know nothing of these early 60s sitcoms to which you refer.
Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
Oh no the bible code ... I have had a brush with it.
Several years ago I was given a leaflet whereby I could send off for this free bible code and "unlock the secrets of the bible". I would discover how the end of time was calculated and so on - as it was all in the bible.
Being rather eager, I thought this might be a good thing so sent off for the code.
And forgot about it.
A few days later I got home from work and a parcel delivery company had tried to send something to me. I rang them up and asked them to deliver it to me at work.
A few days later, I received 12 games consoles.
I had been sent the wrong parcel.
Foolishly I rang them up and asked them to take these expensive things away and send me what they should have done. I had no inkling it was the bible code.
And so they did and imagine my disappointment. Oh boy. 12 games consoles, the bible code ... whcih would you rather keep. It is a tough call.
I read one page of this bible code which was about as interesting as reading a telephone directory and then gave up. I figured I wasn't one of the chosen ones as i took about half an hour to read one sentence.
And the moral of the story ... i have yet to find out.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
'The bible code' is a method of taking every fiftieth (?) letter of the Hebrew Old Testament, putting them together and getting the text of Hamlet, the winner of the 3.30 at Doncaster next Thursday and a message of welcome from Emperor Zligg from the planet Traaal.
Since I commute and have WAY too much time to listen to the radio, I actually know a little about this.
You have the gist of it correct, Chapelhead. Proponents claim that it is a form of authentication placed into scripture by God. This mainly is based on verifiable predictions encoded prior to the event.
Detractors have inconveniently pointed out that you can use the same techniques and find 'hidden codes' in all sorts of documents - the works of Shakespeare, the dictionary, the New York Times, etc. Something about monkeys and typewriters...
scot
ps. If you take every 34th letter from all of my posts to date, string them together and translate the results from Hungarian into English, you will learn the winner of the upcoming Big Brother 3 TV show.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Even if it's actually true, and God has placed all these messages in the Bible for us, it's not a lot of practical use. I remember reading in a book about the Bible Code, how they searched for (oh shoot, who was the Israeli prime minister who was assassinated, Ravin? Rabin?), well his name, a while before he was killed. And lo, and behold, his name appeared. So they knew that something would happen to him, some time in the future. But they didn't know what they were looking for, so it wasn't a lot of use, really, was it? After the event, they searched, and found that the name of the assassin, and another 'fact' (was either the word 'assassination' or the day or some such thing) were grouped close to the prime minister's name. So terribly helpful as hindsight, so say 'Yep, God predicted that.' But not a lot of use otherwise. And, let's face it, I could 're-interpret' some of my old diaries, to prove that I predicted new admins on the Ship, or Simon dying, or ++Rowan becoming ABC. 20-20 hindsight - what would be the point?
Viki, the cynical cow.
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What the cow said.
Reader Alexis
PS what does "sarky" mean?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I always assumed it meant 'sarcastic'
not very fitting really
cynical, yes (like lots of us on the ship) but never sarcastic
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Wouldn't it then be Sarcycow?
We need Viki to tell us.
Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Maybe, but in Britain we use the word 'sarky'(with a k) as an abbreviation for sarcastic. As in: 'don't you get sarky with me, Mousethief!'
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
To me, "sarky" has the connotation of being very moody and biting back at people quickly. At least that is the meaning I have come across in Australia: I have been called a 'sarky bastard' by family members (!) and heard tell of 'sarky cows' down the road by my grandmother.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
Is there a hidden message in Sarkycow's name? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Is there a hidden message in Sarkycow's name?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Well, if you take a=1, b=2, c=3 and add up "sarkycow", one gets 115!
1 + 1 + 5 = 7...the PERFECT NUMBER!?!?!
What does this mean!?!?! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Katie H. L.
Shipmate
# 1996
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Posted
Sounds like "sarky" is a bit like U.S. "snarky"
I've had some encounters with the Bible code, library patrons sometimes want to tell you all about this "fabulous thing that reveals all."
It's nuts, of course.
After 9/11, there was that urban myth that Nostradamus had predicted the events. I spent quite a bit of time explaining to people that no, the verses they were looking for did NOT appear in Nostradamus.
They didn't believe me. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I did not get into the overall validity of the prophecies.
Katie
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Katie L. just using her middle initial for a while.
Posts: 606 | From: San Francisco, USA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral Holder:
[QB1 + 1 + 5 = 7...the PERFECT NUMBER!?!?!
What does this mean!?!?! [/QB]
Ahhhh! John D. Miller ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
(with apologies for those who weren't around a year ago and have no idea what that means)
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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UnShaggy
UnSurly shipmate
# 82
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Posted
Ah yes, the Bible Code. IIRC you take a passage or book in Hebrew, ignore the squiggly things that are the equivalent of vowels, put them in a grid and play word-search, re-inserting “vowels” as necessary.
As an example, let’s take Chapelhead’s OP, apply Bible Code principles and see what we get:
Ibghtcmptrmgzntdythtnclddnthfrcvrdvdsmstffbtthebbl
cdntxctlynmbtthswldsmthbstplctrsthsbjcttsmsthtthbb
lcdsmnstrmnghfrnclsnwthcmptrmgzntbnrmrkblprhpswshl
dpblshbkbtthhddnmnngsfchrstntyhvntplydthsdvdnmypcn
cstgtspssssdbydmnsrsmschbtfrmwhthvgthrdfrmbrwsngth
rghthddbllblfssctnfmylclbkshpthbblcdsamthdftkngvry
fftthlttrfthhbrwldtstmntpttngthmtgthrndgttngthtxtf
hmltthwnnrfth330tdncstrnxtthrsdyndmssgfwlcmfrmmprr
zlggfrmthplnttrlfcrstmghtbthtmjstnrrwmnddrlgsbgtnw
llngtfcptthtrthbtthshddnmssgswldnyncrtvtnscndthght
splsdntshwhghnthrmndncnnyscldsthbblcdrtndfrdthbknd
lrnhbrwwllgnnlghtnmntrtlstbthcrsfbkmkrsvrywhrpsdxt
There are 50 characters in each row. Looking for letter groupings (horizontally, vertically, diagonally - or just next to each other) I can find the following:
ln crss wll s n fct md vl gns scntst typ
Adding some vowels reveals a previously hidden message:
Alan Cresswell is in fact a mad evil genius scientist type.
Hmm. Maybe there is something to this after all…
UnS
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We are like sailors who on the open sea must reconstruct their ship but are never able to start afresh from the bottom. Otto Neurath
Posts: 462 | From: That's me in the corner | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Blast! my secret is revealed.
UnShaggys' plan, that I be dead in my secret lab beside the lake called Ness, had failed. I bided my time and dreamed up a new plan but he has again interfered.
Is this a cue that the thread lacking the 15th letter start again?
Mwahahaha
(regretfully, that will definitely befuddle newer Ships' members)
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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pftaylor
Apprentice
# 3020
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Posted
you are right to be concerned about this Bible code nonsense. I used to run a webring on the subject of Creation Science. One applicant had a website on the Bible Code, and included something he called Bibliomathics. He was very angry when I rejected his application.
There is no code in the Bible. It isn't all easy to understand, and some of it needs hard work, but it is still in plain language. God meant us to be able to understand it.
Most people's difficulties with the Bible start when they say, I don't like what that bit of the Bible says, so maybe it doesn't really say it.
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The fool who says he is a fool is a wise man, but the wise man who says he is a wise man is a fool
Posts: 6 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
What the cow said.
Reader Alexis
PS what does "sarky" mean?
How long have I been posting? And you've only just asked this question?
Yes, 'sarky' is short for sarcastic - I picked it as a handle about 5 years ago, when I was very much ruder and more sarcastic. Now I'm just cynical and world-weary ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Thanks for agreeing with me btw
And I'm glad I'm the perfect number - it makes sense of so much in my life when I look back and re-interpret it through this knowledge. For instance there was this time, when I was 7 when...
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sarkycow:
How long have I been posting? And you've only just asked this question?
Pretty sarky, wouldn't you say? Yeah, me too. And yet she has the termerity to go on and add:
quote:
Yes, 'sarky' is short for sarcastic - I picked it as a handle about 5 years ago, when I was very much ruder and more sarcastic. Now I'm just cynical and world-weary
Don't sell your handle yet, babe.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Don't sell your handle yet, babe.
Reader Alexis[/QB]
Wasn't planning to, hon.
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
You don't fancy being cyni-cow instead do you?
Wood is going to have a fit when he sees that this nice UM thread has been turned into an AS thread.
Sorry Wood.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
You don't fancy being cyni-cow instead do you?
Oooh, that has a nice ring to it.
But, back to the topic. Bible code. What do we all think?
I think it's a load of hoey, and even if it is actually true, there's not a lot of practical point to it, is there now?
Anyone else?
Viki, trying to make Wood happier, or at least less miserable
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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Hypatia of Alexandria
Apprentice
# 3015
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Posted
My first post, so forgive any repeats or unfamiliarity with the board conventions... I had a long and detailed discussion on this topic with a fundamentalist - acquaintance - some weeks ago.
As a professional mathematician, I decided to go into the thing quite deeply, as a matter of common politeness to his views.
It is complete cr*p.
At the time it was first proposed, statistics was a new and emerging discipline. Now, the whole basis of Ivan Panin's work is completely discredited.
To find a good response to anyone from the non-mathematical side of life (is there one? :-)) find the site called 'Some Problems With Bible Codes'.
http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/83.htm
Basically, Panin spent forty-odd years sorting through the KJV of the Bible looking for corespondences and numerical links with the number seven, etc.
He found them. Anyone can find them. In one in seven cases of any characteristic, you find a link with seven by chance. The first part of the trick is to pick the things that fit your theory. The second part of the trick is to ignore the six out of seven that don't, without making it obvious to your readers. The easiest way to do this is to pick a lot of characteristic that are actually linked, rather than being (mathematically) independent. This makes the probability of a match not 1 in 7 but 7 in 7, which is impressive... to those who don't understand the math.
The really important thing to realise about this work, IMHO, is not the math, which is at best shaky and at worst downright misleading, but the fact that this man and others since have been willing to spend their entire lives on the research. This is the real evidence of their belief.
Fortunately, the unreality of their evidence permits the rest of us to simply wonder at their ability to delude themselves over such a long period of time.
Blessings
Hypatia of Alexandria
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May you walk the edge with pride and perception.
Hypatia of Alexandria.
_ _ _________ _ _
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?
Posts: 7 | From: Britain | Registered: Jul 2002
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Welcome aboard, Hypatia, and thank you for your useful contribution to the thread.
'A professional mathematician'? Don't think we've got another one of those on the Ship (though I could be wrong)- just a random assortment of scientists who help us to understand when faith and science intersect
Happy posting
Yours aye ... TonyK
Temporary UM Host
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
Another contender for the 'most impressive first post' award (if we had one). Welcome, Hypatia, and thanks for a very useful link.
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
just a random assortment of scientists who help us to understand when faith and science intersect
or not understand, as the case may be
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Hypatia of Alexandria
Apprentice
# 3015
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Posted
Gee, thank you, folks <blushes furiously and goes pink...>
I don't expect there will be an awful lot of threads that will call on my skills, but it did seem an ideal place to jump in and test the water...
Thanks again, and blessings to all,
Hypatia of Alexandria
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May you walk the edge with pride and perception.
Hypatia of Alexandria.
_ _ _________ _ _
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?
Posts: 7 | From: Britain | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
So essentially, from what Hypatia, Scot, Unshaggy and others have said, these so-called hidden words do actually exist (in that you can find such words), but there is no significance in their existence.
Any lengthy document would contain such words.
Is that the gist of it?
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Hypatia of Alexandria
Apprentice
# 3015
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Posted
Yes.
Just a matter of being persistent enough to find characteristics that fit. Takes about 70 goes on average to produce 10 correspondences.
Just don't tell anyone about the 60 that didn't work. Then wrap the whole thing in good quality waffle, preferably involving something uncheckable to the ordinary punter, like a classical greek translation of an ancient hebrew phrase. Serve hot and spicy, with plenty of padding and offer the introduction for free.
Follow up with expensive desert...
Blessings
Hypatia of Alexandria.
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May you walk the edge with pride and perception.
Hypatia of Alexandria.
_ _ _________ _ _
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?
Posts: 7 | From: Britain | Registered: Jul 2002
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Hypatia of Alexandria
Apprentice
# 3015
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Posted
Sorry, dessert, not desert...
Mathematicians can't spell...
Blessings
Hypatia of Alexandria
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May you walk the edge with pride and perception.
Hypatia of Alexandria.
_ _ _________ _ _
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?
Posts: 7 | From: Britain | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
This sounds like a wonderful way to make some money! I'll help with the um...research ( ) in return for 40% of the profits?
Yes, of course I can look like I believe it, well, long enough to fool the punters anyhow
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hypatia:
I don't expect there will be an awful lot of threads that will call on my skills...
Maybe not - but that shouldn't stop you posting on them anyway.
All you need is an opinion - and shipmates are full of 'em
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Any lengthy document would contain such words.
Someone, sorry I can't remember who, suggested in the Cafe the other day that many posts on the Ship would work as well (rather like UnShaggy revealing my identity as the mad evil genius scientist). It could be an entertaining Heavenly thread - if anyone is sufficiently bored.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hypatia:
I don't expect there will be an awful lot of threads that will call on my skills
Skills, skills. She has skills (I presume she is a she).
What some of us wouldn't give to have skills.
Alan - interesting idea. What fun we could have. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
What some of us wouldn't give to have skills.
I think we would be dangerous then?
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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Slartibartfast
Shipmate
# 797
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Posted
Just watch the Omega Code, and it will tell you all you need to know about the Bible Code.
On second thoughts don't, it's one of the worst movies ever made. And the whole premise of the Bible Code is dodgy, I'll agree with the "monkeys/typewriters" explanation.
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A tale told by an idiot - full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Posts: 129 | From: Australia | Registered: Jul 2001
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soggy_amphibian
Shipmate
# 2487
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Posted
From what I understand the Bible code is a big wordsearch in the original Hebrew, but the grids aren't all the same size.
It's just taking the Bible and twisting it to prove whatever you want.
Which as we all know is b*ll*cks at the best of times and incredibly dangerous at the worst.
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Buffy: I don't like you hanging out with someone that... short.
Riley: Yeah, a lot of young people nowadays are experimenting with shortness.
Posts: 712 | From: Back at home | Registered: Mar 2002
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
What some of us wouldn't give to have skills.
Alan - interesting idea. What fun we could have.
I'll be glad to give you my skills. I don't want them anymore. Does the sight of blood bother you?
Ditto to Alan - start'er up.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bessie rosebride:
Ditto to Alan - start'er up.
OK .... check out the Ship Code
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell ( on 10th July ):
Blast! my secret is revealed.
UnShaggys' plan, that I be dead in my secret lab beside the lake called Ness, had failed. I bided my time and dreamed up a new plan but he has again interfered.
Is this a cue that the thread lacking the 15th letter start again?
Mwahahaha
(regretfully, that will definitely befuddle newer Ships' members)
What is really creepy is that, without having read this thread, 7 days later I did restart the thread missing a letter.
Obviously, Alan, you were passing subliminal messages to me.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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UnShaggy
UnSurly shipmate
# 82
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the chilled feline:
What is really creepy is that, without having read this thread, 7 days later I did restart the thread missing a letter.
Obviously, Alan, you were passing subliminal messages to me.
That really is frightening. Alan is clearly more of an evil genius than any of us have realised!
Posts: 462 | From: That's me in the corner | Registered: May 2001
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Blue
Shipmate
# 3067
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Posted
In 1997, Michael Drosnin, the author of The Bible Code made following challenge in 'Newsweek':
quote:
'When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them.'
They duly obliged - see here (Assassinations foretold in Moby Dick).
I wonder if his shoes need cleaning?
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Cabinboy Blue
Posts: 113 | From: sunk without trace | Registered: Jul 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
Are these the people who told me in my saturday paper that I'm going to be a citizen of the United Nations soon? Sounds like more "Conspiracy theories" to me.
However, why don't these people actually read the Bible, (preferably in Greek and Hebrew, remembering that Aramaic lay behind some of it, and then realise that interpreting it can be difficult on many different levels, and live with the "Grey", instead of pretending that their version of black and white makes 1 + 1 =17?
Oh, and who cares how you spell sarky, it's how you say it that matters!
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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