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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Pacifism
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iamchristianhearmeroar
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# 15483
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Posted
The thread on remembrance has generated a predictable amount of heat, much of it directed against anyone expressing any pacifist tendencies.
Why does pacifism generate such a strong reaction?
Why is it still surprising to some that others are pacifist? Is it *that* uncommon?
[ 10. January 2014, 21:14: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I have a suspicion that the claim to be a pacifist is read as a claim to be better than the people who are not, and no-one likes that. Then it is seen as a way of disguising cowardice by claiming moral superiority, and who would like that?
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
IIRC it was the default position for the early church, and then as Christianity became politically advantageous it was dropped (along with a lot of other things) - early Christians in Roman-occupied areas wore beards so they would not be conscripted into the army. Even now, sharing the Peace is an important part of many (most?) church services...shouldn't that extend to our daily lives?
The historical peace churches have tended to be Anabaptist and so persecuted for other reasons....not sure to what extent their pacifism has been a reason for persecution, at least not in the UK, since most Christian pacifists here have been Quakers. Can some North American shippies give any info on Amish/Mennonites/Hutterites, pacifism and public reaction to that? I only know of the Bruderhof and they are a modern group. Most pacifist Christian organisations I come across (normally via SCM - mostly due to our campaigning for nuclear disarmament though, not general pacifism) are Catholic, eg Pax Christi.
However, for me pacifism is not just being anti-war, it's about living a life full of the peace which passes all understanding. It's about pursuing peace and justice in all things, which includes avoiding war but that's not the whole of it. In terms of my own faith, I cannot reconcile the Sermon on the Mount with any other approach.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Also (as a response to Penny S but also generally). True pacifism (that is, pacifism in daily life not just regarding war) is so much harder than the alternative. It's hard to not give into anger/violence/revenge when you want to do so! But following Christ is and should be hard. I don't say this to claim moral superiority at all, just that this is the path I have chosen - it's hard, but I feel unable to choose Christ and follow any other route.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
That's nonsense. 'Pacifism' does not mean that at all. Stop poisoning the well.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
The right to end another's life does not belong to me.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
That's nonsense. 'Pacifism' does not mean that at all. Stop poisoning the well.
The Second World War, for example, was a war to protect the weak against a strong evil. Pacifism would have allowed Hitler to walk into Britain.
Sometimes a violent reaction in self-defence is the only way to defeat evil.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
That's nonsense. 'Pacifism' does not mean that at all. Stop poisoning the well.
The Second World War, for example, was a war to protect the weak against a strong evil. Pacifism would have allowed Hitler to walk into Britain.
Sometimes a violent reaction in self-defence is the only way to defeat evil.
And warfare allowed Stalin to walk into eastern Europe. Violent action doesn't defeat evil, it only displaces one evil with another. The right response to evil can only be to do good.
[ 11. November 2013, 19:01: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
Did you read my posts at all? It has (for me) nothing to do with defending others or not, but is about following Christ.
Also, as I said, true pacifism is not just about avoiding war, but living a peaceful life in general.
[ 11. November 2013, 19:02: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
The right to end another's life does not belong to me.
But the responsibility to protect the life of another is.
If a man attacks someone in the street it's right to defend the victim.
If an aggressive Army, having already murdered thousands of innocent lives, turns its attention to one's own country, then it's our responsibility to meet that force with an appropriate defence in order to prevent atrocity on home soil.
Anything else is to condemn the innocent to untold suffering.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Stop calling killing people defence. Call it what it is. If the prevention of killing is a moral imperative, why does "home soil" have anything to do with it? And how do you square Christ's words and actions with this extremely world friendly view?
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
That's nonsense. 'Pacifism' does not mean that at all. Stop poisoning the well.
The Second World War, for example, was a war to protect the weak against a strong evil. Pacifism would have allowed Hitler to walk into Britain.
Sometimes a violent reaction in self-defence is the only way to defeat evil.
And Hitler came to power partly because of the vindictive attitude taken to Germany after WWI in the Treaty of Versailles; thus, violence begets violence.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The right response to evil can only be to do good.
To Herr Hitler,
The Beach
Calais.
1940
Dear Herr Hitler,
We have noticed that you and your Generals have been standing at the seaside in Calais looking through your very large Nazi-issue field glasses at our rather lovely White Cliffs. We were wondering if you would like to come over.
We are aware that over the last 7 years you have been treating Jews and other minorities like animals and we respectfully say that we don't much like what you've been doing; indeed, our sources tell us that you plan to do even more; but it's you choice after all.
In our opinion we can only do good to you in response to this so what we would like to do is send a ferry over and invite you to England to have a good look round and see what you think. Of course, we'd rather you didn't march into Golders Green and round up the people, so if there's anything we can do or say to change your mind, your vision for a racially pure Third Reich notwithstanding, then please just let us know and we'll see what we can do; after all, we're all brothers and sisters underneath, aren't we?
Hope to hear from you soon.
Your Friends,
The Pacifist British.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
Mud frog, you really are being a knob
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Maius intra qua extra
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
That's nonsense. 'Pacifism' does not mean that at all. Stop poisoning the well.
The Second World War, for example, was a war to protect the weak against a strong evil. Pacifism would have allowed Hitler to walk into Britain.
Sometimes a violent reaction in self-defence is the only way to defeat evil.
Godwin's law violation, you lose.
But anyway, surely if most Germans had been pacifist Hitler would have had serious problems with his blitzkrieg ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Anyuta
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# 14692
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Posted
when violence is seen as a "good" response, then other responses tend to be ignored (or at least minimally utilized) until no other response is possible. if you stand by and watch someone pick up a gun without stopping them, without warning the person being aimed at, without stepping in the way to try to disrupt the aim.. or even earlier stopping them from acquiring the gun in the first place.. then perhaps the only option remaining is violence.. and even then, there is violence and violence.
Even when there truly never was a non-violent alternative to prevent another violent action, that doesn't make the violence OK, it just makes it necessary to prevent even worse violence.
I don't understand the idea that if something appears to be the only option to prevent bad, then it is rendered "good". it's not in my book.
it's certainly not lazy. the ultimate pacifist is ready to die if necessary rather than resort to violence. I don't see how that's lazy or cowardice. I'm not that good, by the way... I try to be, but I'm not.
War takes this to a different level, since it's not just a single act of violence, but a whole collection of such acts, committed by many individuals, some of whom are acting in true self defense (or defense of others) while others are not... on both sides. I don't buy into the idea that somehow WWII was a "just war" (to me that's an oxymoron). it was perhaps a necessary war given the lack of early preventive actions. it's proof of faille. it's a sign that we didn't do enough, not something to pat ourselves on the back about.
The folks in Germany and other Nazi occupied areas who risked their own lives to protect Jews were doing a good thing without violence. they were risking their lives. are you saying that because they may not have lifted a weapon they were being lazy or cowardly? I have a great deal more respect for them than for any soldier. not that I think soldiers don't deserve some respect.. certainly they did what they thought they had to do, in what they thought was a good cause, or at least did what they felt was required of them by their country (depending on the war). it's not easy to do. But I still think the non-violent option is more worthy of respect.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
Dude, do you even read your Bible?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Six Million Jews
Yeah, they were really protected by a handful of pacifist Germans.
On the other hand, every single Jew, homosexual, disabled person and gypsy living in Britain was saved because Hitler was defeated by the Allied Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
What about those pacifists who went out under fire with stretchers, or served in the military in a bomb disposal capacity? Were these selfish too?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
Dude, do you even read your Bible?
The turn the other cheek injunction applies to you and one other person taking advantage of you personally.
I would like to know what Jesus would have said to a third person who came across a man being abused by another.
I do not believe that we have a right to stand by and allow the victim to be abused because we won't lift a finger.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Six Million Jews
Yeah, they were really protected by a handful of pacifist Germans.
On the other hand, every single Jew, homosexual, disabled person and gypsy living in Britain was saved because Hitler was defeated by the Allied Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Both mine and iamchristian's questions are perfectly valid ones. Why not give them a go, or has belonging to an organisation with 'army' in its name gone to your head?
(eta)
I'm sorry. You have no idea what pacifism actually is. It would be brilliant if you could at least go away and read about Gandhi and Martin Luther King before you comment again.
[ 11. November 2013, 19:41: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
That, DT, is of course the point.
So,mudfrog, in your view would jesus have killed to defend a life?
So, if Hitler had invaded Britain and set up death camps to gas all the British Jews, you would say that British Christians would be following the way of Christ if they just allowed them to get on with it?
It's one thing for me to choose to turn the other cheek to an oppressor, but to stand there and tell someone else who is being hurt to turn their other cheek while I'm in less danger, strikes me as being particularly unneighbourly - the priest and the levite in the Good Samaritan come to mind.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Bit early in the thread for personal insult isn't it Doc?
[Posted before Doc Tor's eta.]
[ 11. November 2013, 19:45: Message edited by: balaam ]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I can't believe that this is a thread on a Christian forum! Somebody, please pinch me, and tell me that I'm actually reading the comments in the Daily Mail.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Bit early in the thread for personal insult isn't it Doc?
[Posted before Doc Tor's eta.]
I thought mild sarcasm was my birthright: it's what we fought a war to defend!
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Forward the New Republic
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
would jesus have killed to defend a life?
I don't know, but he would heal an army officer's child without a lecture on how serving in the military is wrong.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I'd still like to know what a pacifist UK government would have done to protect British Jews on the occasion of allowing Hitler's Army's to land unopposed in 1940.
Churchill executed.
George VI and family murdered.
The entire British establishment wiped out.
Death camps for Jews, gays, the disabled, the mentally ill...
What possible benefit to the British people would pacifism have brought?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, if the European powers had been less gung ho to punish Germany in the Treaty of Versailles in 1918, conditions might not have been as favourable for the rise of Hitler in the first place. I'm not saying that this was the only cause, but the humiliation of Germany aided Hitler. Violence begets violence.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
That, DT, is of course the point.
So,mudfrog, in your view would jesus have killed to defend a life?
So, if Hitler had invaded Britain and set up death camps to gas all the British Jews, you would say that British Christians would be following the way of Christ if they just allowed them to get on with it?
No, they would be following the way of Christ to do what Corrie Ten Boom and others in Nazi occupied Europe did - hide Jews and help them escape. Protecting and defending people doesn't mean killing others. It might also mean risking death by blockading death camps, speaking openly about what was happening. Pacifism doesn't mean hiding and saying "I'm alright, Jack". It means being more willing to die for a just cause than to kill for one.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
That, DT, is of course the point.
So,mudfrog, in your view would jesus have killed to defend a life?
So, if Hitler had invaded Britain and set up death camps to gas all the British Jews, you would say that British Christians would be following the way of Christ if they just allowed them to get on with it?
No, they would be following the way of Christ to do what Corrie Ten Boom and others in Nazi occupied Europe did - hide Jews and help them escape. Protecting and defending people doesn't mean killing others. It might also mean risking death by blockading death camps, speaking openly about what was happening. Pacifism doesn't mean hiding and saying "I'm alright, Jack". It means being more willing to die for a just cause than to kill for one.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Six Million Jews
SIXTY million deaths in the war.
You've used the example of seeing a person being attacked and feeling obliged to defend them. Would you still say such defense was an obligation if it would cost the lives of ten of the defenders?
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
But it wasn't 'just' six million Jews was it? It was the democratic governments of all the European countries, it was the potential deaths of all the minorities in the occupied countries as we moved into a Nazi-controlled 1950s Europe.
The evident situation is that Hitler and his Generals were not an ordinary government that could be negotiated with; this was an ideology that was intrinsically evil and uncompromising.
They had no interest in listening to anyone or giving away anything; Hitler wanted a thousand year Nazi empire and had pacifism given him his way there would be nothing left.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
I believe that pacifism ,that being total non violence is wrong.
If in 1940 Hitler & co had landed in UK and began ethic cleansing I well might not be here. He had to be met head on. Same for any number of leaders & regiemes throughout history .
We must always make a stand for what is right and defend that right with pur lives if needed. I think that is what MLK was doing in his actions, they weren't just the words his going to jail to protest the color line in the south in spefic & the rest of USA in general.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
Dude, do you even read your Bible?
I believe he does, but either it isn't the same as mine or he reads it with one eye shut.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Mudfrog, I've never fought in a war. However, the clients I work with are sometimes violent. Several have served time for serious crimes involving violence.
These people are generally both disabled (often intellectually) and ill (usually psychiatrically). IOW, they sometimes lack the inner resources to stop their own impulses toward violence.
My staff and I take two days of training every six months in methods for defending ourselves and each other from violent attack without hurting our clients. This training works; I've had to put it to the test more than once.
It is perfectly possible to defend oneself and others without inflicting harm, and when dealing with certain of my clients, it is what I'm required to do by law.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
No, they would be following the way of Christ to do what Corrie Ten Boom and others in Nazi occupied Europe did - hide Jews and help them escape.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
But they didn't did they!!!
There were 6 million failures of this 'Christlike' attitude to the death camps.
I wonder how many British Jews would have had to die to allow the self-indulgence of pacisism to tell the the world how wonderful they were at hiding a couple of hundred Jews behind their wardrobes.
Let me remind you that a couple of years of hiding a few Dutch families behind a wardrobe is one thing. Hiding every single British Jew for the entire time - maybe a generation - that the Nazis ruled Britain unopposed, is another.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
But it wasn't 'just' six million Jews was it? It was the democratic governments of ll the European countries, it was the potential deaths of all the minorities in the occupied countries as we moved into a Nazi-controlled 1950s Europe
At what point do the deaths in war outweigh the reason for fighting it in the first place though? Or is it that the lives of all those innocent people who were conscripted and sent to die by the Allied governments don't matter as much as those of the minorities Hitler was persecuting?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
That, DT, is of course the point.
So,mudfrog, in your view would jesus have killed to defend a life?
So, if Hitler had invaded Britain and set up death camps to gas all the British Jews, you would say that British Christians would be following the way of Christ if they just allowed them to get on with it?
No, they would be following the way of Christ to do what Corrie Ten Boom and others in Nazi occupied Europe did - hide Jews and help them escape. Protecting and defending people doesn't mean killing others. It might also mean risking death by blockading death camps, speaking openly about what was happening. Pacifism doesn't mean hiding and saying "I'm alright, Jack". It means being more willing to die for a just cause than to kill for one.
Well said. I can't believe how much poisoning of the well that Mudfrog is doing - for example, in the phrase, 'just allow them to get on with it'. This is farcical. There are other options besides killing people and being totally passive. Good grief, and this is a Christian forum!?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I can't believe that this is a thread on a Christian forum! Somebody, please pinch me, and tell me that I'm actually reading the comments in the Daily Mail.
That's hardly appropriate. The Daily Mail was sympathetic to Mosley's Blackshirts. Lord Rothermere was a personal friend of Mussolini and Hitler. Nothing much changes.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
Who said they would be unopposed? Pacifism means no violence, not no opposition. Most of the Nazi troops were ordinary decent people following orders, many of them Christians themselves. We simply do not know what the response would have been to a concerted, Christian response to occupation. The only large scale evidence history has presented us with is the violent and the collaborators, because the Christian route is harder than I care to think about. I don't actually call myself a pacifist partly because it's an easy label to wear in peace time and I think until you've been in the situation yourself and done the right thing you don't have the right to it.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I can't believe that this is a thread on a Christian forum! Somebody, please pinch me, and tell me that I'm actually reading the comments in the Daily Mail.
That's hardly appropriate. The Daily Mail was sympathetic to Mosley's Blackshirts. Lord Rothermere was a personal friend of Mussolini and Hitler. Nothing much changes.
I don't think the Daily Mail would favour pacifism, would they? I bet they soon turned round and advocated hitting the hun.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Mudfrog, I've never fought in a war. However, the clients I work with are sometimes violent. Several have served time for serious crimes involving violence.
These people are generally both disabled (often intellectually) and ill (usually psychiatrically). IOW, they sometimes lack the inner resources to stop their own impulses toward violence.
My staff and I take two days of training every six months in methods for defending ourselves and each other from violent attack without hurting our clients. This training works; I've had to put it to the test more than once.
It is perfectly possible to defend oneself and others without inflicting harm, and when dealing with certain of my clients, it is what I'm required to do by law.
We're talking pacifism here in the face of the massed armies of the Third Reich! What would you have proposed? That the entire population of 1940s Britain were sent on a two day course on how to disarm Nazi soldiers? That they should learn how to talk an entire German company out of shooting the population of any given English Village?
Your suggestion is just too ridiculous for words.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I don't think that pacifism is a ridiculous topic on a Christian forum, no. It seems quite a natural thing to discuss, since the idea of not being violent, or not opposing violence with violence has been part of some Christian teaching, hasn't it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We're talking pacifism here in the face of the massed armies of the Third Reich! What would you have proposed? That the entire population of 1940s Britain were sent on a two day course on how to disarm Nazi soldiers? That they should learn how to talk an entire German company out of shooting the population of any given English Village?
Your suggestion is just too ridiculous for words.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." - 1 Corinthians 1:18
Seems appropriate here. The model of the early church on how to respond to the persecution of the occupying power is instructive.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
No, they would be following the way of Christ to do what Corrie Ten Boom and others in Nazi occupied Europe did - hide Jews and help them escape.
But they didn't did they!!!
There were 6 million failures of this 'Christlike' attitude to the death camps.
I wonder how many British Jews would have had to die to allow the self-indulgence of pacisism to tell the the world how wonderful they were at hiding a couple of hundred Jews behind their wardrobes.
Let me remind you that a couple of years of hiding a few Dutch families behind a wardrobe is one thing. Hiding every single British Jew for the entire time - maybe a generation - that the Nazis ruled Britain unopposed, is another. [/QB][/QUOTE]
You can piss off if you think that pacifism is self-indulgence, when it requires a lot of sacrifice - as the Friends Ambulance Service and others prove, despite their persecution by others. As Porridge and others have said, there are plenty of ways of dealing with conflict without violence. Plus, Britain was not exactly totally pro-Jew so please stop pretending that we were somehow immune to anti-Semitism. British Jews were oppressed enough at home.
For me, following Christ means pacifism and I cannot argue with Him.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think the Daily Mail would favour pacifism, would they? I bet they soon turned round and advocated hitting the hun.
I imagine they'd have done what they do today - breed an environment where killing socialists, communists, Jews, gypsies and gays is perfectly acceptable and indeed your civic duty as a God-fearing Anglo-Saxon.
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Forward the New Republic
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
Dude, do you even read your Bible?
I believe he does, but either it isn't the same as mine or he reads it with one eye shut.
Or he reads the whole thing
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, it's that corrosive cynicism in the phrase 'self-indulgent pacifism' that surprises me. I knew an old guy who'd been a CO in WWI, and he was definitely not self-indulgent, and he had suffered plenty because of his views, which he held to until his death.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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