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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Heaven: Pull To Open: Doctor Who 2017
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
The new season has started!
It is a little early to discern the overarching theme, but apparently the Doctor is guarding a sealed door in the basement at university. (Hmmmm, did they say WHICH university? I don't recall.) And there are a lot of comments concerning promises.
New companion Bill has a slightly different sort of introduction. Avoiding spoilers as much as I can, the story focuses on a threat personal to her--no shrieks that the Universe might end because of what is going on. I rather like that. Some of my favorite Who stories have that more individual focus. Threats to the entire world/star system/galaxy/universe/Time Itself are all well and good, but I really get drawn into the more intimate "this handful of people is in trouble" type of story.
[ 28. August 2017, 15:21: Message edited by: jedijudy ]
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Educating Rita.
My machine didn't record. Watching catchup.
The Kings College Botany Department as was in Herne Hill had a manhole in the basement which led down into a water tank, very clear, with leeches in it.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
It was really just there to introduce Bill the new companion, which it did.
I think I saw one sign which read Bristol. Some scenes were definitely shot at Imperial College London.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
My daughter is at Cardiff university and was very excited to see lots of shots of (I think) the hospital campus.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Roseofsharon
Shipmate
# 9657
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
did they say WHICH university? I don't recall.) y.
Not sure where I got this, possibly Radio Times, possibly I imagined it.
St Pauls University, Bristol
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Posts: 3060 | From: Sussex By The Sea | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
did they say WHICH university? I don't recall.) y.
Not sure where I got this, possibly Radio Times, possibly I imagined it.
St Pauls University, Bristol
Definitely saw something saying Bristol (prior to that I had Oxford in my head, not sure why, it obv looked posh and 'old'). but I'm sure I saw "Dukes University, Bristol", psychic screens?
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Hmmmmmm. Bristol, heh? I wonder if that is a sneaky reference to the "Bristol Boys": Bob Baker & Dave Martin. While they are most known for creating K-9, they also were the ones who created the character of Omega. And considering how this is the Moff's last season and he likes to splash around in WHOstory, it would not be a complete shock to me if he brought back Omega as the Big Bad for this season.
Yes, I know. That's a lot of essentially groundless speculation. But so far we don't have much hard evidence to play with, so I have to get my fun somewhere. So that's the latest in my impressive string of Completely Wrong Predictions: Omega returns!
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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ACK
Shipmate
# 16756
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Posted
I do not get is why they say Bill is the first openly gay companion. Where does that leave Captain Jack? Is it because he is pan-sexual rather than gay? Do they not count him as a companion? Or is it the openly part? More was made of his sexuality on Torchwood, but they made it clear enough on Dr Who. Am I missing something?
Bill says there are rumours he has been at the university 50 years - so is it 50 years in the Doctor's timeline since the Christmas episode? Also, when tempted to have Bill as a companion he said he had promised not to do it any more. Promised what exactly, to whom and when? I do not recall such a promise - was it something in the last Clara episode?
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'It's the only thing that worries me about going to Heaven. Would I ever get used to the height.' Norman Clegg
Posts: 56 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2011
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
And considering how this is the Moff's last season and he likes to splash around in WHOstory, it would not be a complete shock to me if he brought back Omega as the Big Bad for this season.
I think he's largely restricted himself to things that were brought back to the new series in the Davies-era. Exceptions: silurians and zygons, and the Great Intelligence (which was little more than an injoke).
Speaking of which SPOILER:
there's a shot of John Simm's Master with a beard in the Coming Soon sequence. Which given we're getting Missy too suggests we're going to get a Master team-up story because that would be just silly (in a good way).
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ACK:
I do not get is why they say Bill is the first openly gay companion. Where does that leave Captain Jack? Is it because he is pan-sexual rather than gay? Do they not count him as a companion?
He's only been in ten episodes split over three different series. Arguably he's only been a companion for three to five episodes. So I'd guess they're not counting him in the press release because he's never been a series regular.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
I don't think Captain Jack qualifies as the first gay companion because he really wasn't a companion, as such, merely popping up occasionally. Besides, if you've slept with 37(?) different genders, is that gay? Or galactically queer? I'm foggy on what the nomenclature should be.
I do wish they'd bring Capt Jack back. John Barrowman brought great verve to the role. I do wonder how he'd interact with the current Doctor, given the latter's temperament, though.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
When I was noodling about on the net before the new season started, I came across some purported spoilers.
I can't unsee them but I won't go into them here, although if they're right, it sounds good. And I can see how the set up in the Pilot would fit.
I've been very disappointed in Peter Capaldi's Doctor overall. I was very excited at first, he's a fine actor, but he's never clicked in the role for me. Probably the writing. But I quite enjoyed the Pilot. From the original trailer, I thought Bill was going to be awful, but she wasn't. Fingers crossed for the rest of the year!
M.
[ 18. April 2017, 06:32: Message edited by: M. ]
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I really enjoyed the episode. Love the idea of the Doctor teaching at a university [all I caught was "Bristol"] and I found Bill a very fine companion - I liked her questions and inquisitiveness.
Only disappointed I have 5 more sleeps till the next one!
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
I don't think Captain Jack qualifies as the first gay companion because he really wasn't a companion, as such, merely popping up occasionally. Besides, if you've slept with 37(?) different genders, is that gay? Or galactically queer? I'm foggy on what the nomenclature should be.
I do wish they'd bring Capt Jack back. John Barrowman brought great verve to the role. I do wonder how he'd interact with the current Doctor, given the latter's temperament, though.
I like ACK's label: pan-sexual
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I thought I heard St Lukes as the University.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
The episode did what it needed to do: introduce Bill, act as a "jumping-on" point for anyone new to the show, and dangle a little mystery or two for clearing up later (the door in the basement, linked to "promises" the Doctor has made). I thought it was great fun, and I warmed to Bill instantly.
One question remains: is Nardole the new K9?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Affirmative.
[Sorry. I just couldn't resist. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ]
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I finally watched "The Pilot".
And really I was rather pleased. Good pacing and a focused storyline, an intriguing ongoing idea (just what IS the Doctor doing at the university?), some quite gorgeous visuals.
The only downside for me was Nardole. I don't know whether it's Matt Lucas or the character, but both during the Christmas episode and this one he really did seem to be a bit of a waste of space.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
I agree. What is the point of Nardole?
I think he may come into his own later. In the larger picture, I think The Doctor is lonely, and needs some other presence with him. Nardole is someone who the Doctor can talk to. I suspect this may play out too.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I think that's one of the glaring problems, though: there's been little interaction in these last 2 episodes between the Doctor and Nardole.
On this occasion, there was a conversation between them that was deliberately in the background (what was actually shown was wordless action involving Bill), and during the whole Dalek bit I think we were supposed to be vaguely amused at Nardole being sent off to deal with them.
In far too many other scenes the only thing the character has done is insert the odd quip about the action. It's like he's standing there watching what's happening instead of being involved in it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Probably showing either my ignorance, or my faulty memory here, but the two photos on the Doctor's desk? One was obviously River, but who was the other one? Photos are going to be important in this series I think, Bill had a photo of her mother with the reflection of the Doctor in a mirror!
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
Susan. His granddaughter. From the first Doctor (William Hartnell).
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
My first reaction to Smile is that it was a total delight. The darker aspects of the story were very cleverly handled, though they were very definitely present. The moral ambiguity of the humans, too, wasn't too heavy-handed. Good stuff, and kind of old school.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Duh! Of course it was Susan.
I have to say I am loving Bill so far. She is so obviously having a brilliant time but with very little deference to the Doctor. She looks like she is going to be great fun.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Just watched "Smile", liked it a lot again. Genuinely laughed out loud a couple of times.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Doctor to Bill about the TARDIS: "You'll be safe in here."
There is a certainty about the story arc: Bill will not be safe in the TARDIS.
In episode 1 Bill asked the Doctor to save Heather, which he didn't, so I am also expecting a return of the girl with the star in her eye in the last couple of episodes.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Still not sure about Bill, but she is starting to grow on me. "Smile" was a decent episode, not great, but reliable. However, I really don't like Nardole - he seems to be the Jar Jar Binks of Who.
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Not really, younger children liked Binks.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Nardole seems to be connected to the Vault somehow. At the very least, the Doctor apparently had no desire to tour the Universe with him like he does with Bill.
A lot about the introduction of Bill reminds me of the start of Amy. First episode sort-of kind-of revolves around Amy/Bill (a crack in the wall for Amy, a crush for Bill). The second episode lets Amy/Bill shine, with her stopping the Doctor from making a huge mistake (killing the whale with Amy, killing the remnants of the human race with Bill).
But those are just surface things. Bill is far more agreeable to watch than Amy.
"Smile" was interesting, although it struck me that it took the Doctor longer than usual to think that he could just reprogram the robots. And defaulting to "blow the city up" as the first solution didn't feel particularly Doctor-ish, but maybe I am being too harsh.
I am curious about the Vault.
[ 24. April 2017, 00:05: Message edited by: Hedgehog ]
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
And defaulting to "blow the city up" as the first solution didn't feel particularly Doctor-ish, but maybe I am being too harsh.
It wasn't his first solution, though. That only came once he realised the entire city was robots.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Oh stop it with the Nardole abuse please ![[Smile]](smile.gif) . He's cute, he's cuddly and he has great dress sense. I personally think he'd be a great hugger and what better skill can we ask of an occasional companion-cum-promise guardian?
Are other jurisdictions screening a Dr Who panel discussion show after the episode is screened? Ours is called Whovians and is a hoot.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Are other jurisdictions screening a Dr Who panel discussion show after the episode is screened? Ours is called Whovians and is a hoot.
Where, where? ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Duh! Of course it was Susan.
I have to say I am loving Bill so far. She is so obviously having a brilliant time but with very little deference to the Doctor. She looks like she is going to be great fun.
I laughed and laughed at the scene where The Doctor is proudly preening his peacock feathers as he announces "Tardis!" and Bill is more concerned about finding the toilet! And then when she says, "Oh, this is a lift, isn't it?". Ha! The look on The Doctor's face! Like a little boy trying desperately to convince the grownup that his toy is really "important". Yeah, Bill is a-ok, in my book.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Still not sure about Bill, but she is starting to grow on me. "Smile" was a decent episode, not great, but reliable. However, I really don't like Nardole - he seems to be the Jar Jar Binks of Who.
Oh, hell, no! I must disagree vigorously. Jar Jar Binks had THE most annoying voice in the entire universe and was stupid and useless. Nardole is also annoying but not nearly in the same league as Jar Jar. Right now I'm just wondering what his purpose is. He doesn't really add anything to the story, at least not yet. I guess we'll have to see.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
"Doesn't add anything to the story." So we agree on annoying and useless; it's only the level of stupidity that might separate Nardole from Jar Jar?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
"Doesn't add anything to the story." So we agree on annoying and useless; it's only the level of stupidity that might separate Nardole from Jar Jar?
I am prepared to wait and see if he has a purpose later. I think he will be important. I don't find him too irritating, but I accept that others don;t like him.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Are other jurisdictions screening a Dr Who panel discussion show after the episode is screened? Ours is called Whovians and is a hoot.
Where, where?
Here, but I am guessing it may be geo-blocked outside Oz. There are aftershow interviews on YouTube too.
It is rather good fun having a fun discussion programme after the episode.
I'm liking Bill more and more. Pearl Mackie's acting range is great. And I *loved* the Doctor's expression when he mentioned the algae emperor who fancied him. Amazing actor.
[ 27. April 2017, 21:01: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think Nardole is there because the actor has something on the production team.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I think Nardole is there because the actor has something on the production team.
Best explanation I've heard so far!
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
Now hang on. Comparing Nardole to the verminous Binks is pistols at dawn stuff.
You have been warned.
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
Posts: 1660 | From: A Fleeting moment | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
That's a third I really liked (admittedly my bars fairly low).
Come to think of it the one that was most similar is the one that stands out as being badly thought out.
[ 30. April 2017, 08:01: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I am forming a Nardol Defence League in protest against the maligning of this wonderful, dutiful and hard-working cyborg. He is indeed a lion of a lifeform, although one who has also lost his courage. I believe it is in the vault.
Sorry I didn't get back quick enough on Whovians. Thanks to Ian for filling the breach. I didn't post a link because I too assumed geoblocking.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
This episode was the one I liked least of the series so far. It was doing well, and looking pretty, until the entrance of the baddy. After that:
1) Why did baddy object to Bill? There were rich black people in that period, and we saw plenty of other black faces around generally.
2) The giant fish isn't alien but terrestrial? And only the baddy's family know about it? How could such a thing be undetected in the Thames, and why did it leave?
3) The Doctor waits for Bill to give him instructions, because he's just there to protect humanity and she is human. Not a bad idea for a totally new character, but we've never seen any Doctor act like this. In fact we've never seen Capaldi's Doctor act like this, and my bet is his subservience will be completely forgotten after this.
4) The forged will to give a happy ending to the urchins was weak, but that's a minor quibble compared to the others.
On the plus side there was very little Nardole.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Well I never! Will nobody else join us in opposing this plague of Nardol nastiness?
1) That bloke was a baddie. Ethnicity was as good enough a reason as any other, like gender. You don't need much excuse to be nasty when you are nasty.
2) Loch Ness Monster.
3) The moon episode, when he does it to whats-her-name. I've forgotten her already.
4) I sort of agree with you on the forged will, although the Doctor has never had much time for anyone's laws, least of all Galafrey's.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
On other sites, there was a strand of objection to the remarks about historical whitewash, especially the one about Jesus, which posters had not parsed correctly, and assumed the Dr meant he was African black, rather than not as white as presented. They were really deeply offended. And accused the BBC of having a leftie liberal agenda in presenting Regency London as multicultural society. To which my reaction is what's wrong with that?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
none of that surprises me Penny. It's sad.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
2) The giant fish isn't alien but terrestrial? And only the baddy's family know about it? How could such a thing be undetected in the Thames, and why did it leave?
[one day I will learn to get both qb tags]
It was chained up and so not moving much.
Though:
I think the victorian Thames was pretty wide and relatively shallow which was why it froze, It's still less than 10m at it's deepest point and time.
Not sure what effect that would have on gills and breathing.
As for why it left, it wasn't there voluntarily.
I think it's assumed it was semi-intelligent and realised it was being set free by a goodie rather than to get revenge .
It actually had a lot in common with the moon episode in many ways,
[ 01. May 2017, 08:00: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Well I never! Will nobody else join us in opposing this plague of Nardol nastiness?
1) That bloke was a baddie. Ethnicity was as good enough a reason as any other, like gender. You don't need much excuse to be nasty when you are nasty.
2) Loch Ness Monster.
3) The moon episode, when he does it to whats-her-name. I've forgotten her already.
4) I sort of agree with you on the forged will, although the Doctor has never had much time for anyone's laws, least of all Galafrey's.
I'll join you in defending Nardol. We first meet him with River, so I am wondering if all this promise subplot is wound up with her in some way. I don't find him anywhere as irritating as Captain Jack!
I also agree re Lord Watsit's reaction to Bill. He's a nasty snob. She would not have been dressed at the height of fashion, she was obviously not his social equal and she was not seated in a lady-like manner, according to the manners of the time. Of course he was going to be rude to her!
I'm enjoying Bill much more than I thought I would. She's really interesting. And as for the Doctor asking her for orders, I think part of that is related to Bill's challenges at the beginning of the episode. He basically made her responsible for what happens next...
[ 01. May 2017, 09:05: Message edited by: Athrawes ]
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
I think the victorian Thames was pretty wide and relatively shallow which was why it froze, It's still less than 10m at it's deepest point and time.
The main reason it froze,
other than cold winters, was that the old London Bridge, with many arches, meant that tidal sea water did not flow further up the Thames, leaving the Thames west of the bridge to be fresh water.
How the fish got through the old bridge is not explained. quote:
Not sure what effect that would have on gills and breathing.
If it were facing upstream, into the flow of water, breathing would have been no problem.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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