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Thread: Purgatory: We don't actually know,,,KNOW. Saints
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Last night I had a conversation with a more Protestant friend of mine. He said that he objected to Saints' Days because we don't know whether anyone actually has gone into heaven. He said "Even we don't know if Mary has gone into heaven or not."
Is the fact that we don't actually know if anyone has gone into heaven an obstacle to celebrating Saints?
[ 28. January 2013, 23:53: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
There are surely saints that we can have a fairly solid guess that they are in heaven? I guess the question for me is more about how conscious the departed are in heaven/wherever they are.
There are though those in the Bible who are not saints who I think are worth remembering as examples of faith.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Well, at least the "Good Thief" is there, if your friend wants to take Jesus' word for it.
It's highly unlikely that heaven is empty, even though we might not be able to name with certainty anyone who may be there.
[ 27. October 2012, 22:26: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Is the fact that we don't actually know if anyone has gone into heaven an obstacle to celebrating Saints?
That's a fact? Says who? The whole business of having two miracles to your name before you can become a saint is intended as checking for confirmation from God. Furthermore, canonisation is an exercise of papal infallibility; hence saints canonised by the pope are Divinely guaranteed. Before the Church had worked out the procedure, there was a lot of messiness. You may want to be a bit cautious about some of the early saints. But that definitely does not include the BVM who is the Queen of Heaven. Only a Protestant could be silly enough to doubt that the Mother of God is in heaven...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Only a Protestant could be silly enough to doubt that the Mother of God is in heaven...
Whilst I understand that the official position lumps all non-RCCs together as excluded from heaven I don't suppose that means you think that we non-believers (or Hindus, Jains, Jedi etc. come to that) are just another variety of Protestant. I am therefore delighted to read that you have realised that atheists are not silly when we doubt that anyone is in heaven.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Is the fact that we don't actually know if anyone has gone into heaven an obstacle to celebrating Saints?
That's a fact? Says who? The whole business of having two miracles to your name before you can become a saint is intended as checking for confirmation from God. Furthermore, canonisation is an exercise of papal infallibility; hence saints canonised by the pope are Divinely guaranteed. Before the Church had worked out the procedure, there was a lot of messiness. You may want to be a bit cautious about some of the early saints. But that definitely does not include the BVM who is the Queen of Heaven. Only a Protestant could be silly enough to doubt that the Mother of God is in heaven...
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
But you have said it 'the church worked out the procedure'.
But let's be a little gentler with the silly pejorative comments okay and looking down your nose on those 'other' Christians, even if you think God will damn them for being outside your denomination. (Which is abomination.)
Let's try a less exclusivist understanding. The church has held out the examples particular exemplary lives as guidance to us, and in modern analogy, like modern sports figures, retired their jerseys or sweaters. God will decide the specifics of their lives, with them, personally, as none of us have access to anyone else's full life story, so it doesn't matter.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Whilst I understand that the official position lumps all non-RCCs together as excluded from heaven I don't suppose that means you think that we non-believers (or Hindus, Jains, Jedi etc. come to that) are just another variety of Protestant.
No, your opinion just doesn't count at all concerning this question. That would be like discussing vintages with a teetotaller.
And you clearly do not understand the RC position on the population of heaven.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
But you have said it 'the church worked out the procedure'.
Yes. The Church worked out the canonisation procedure. It also worked out the dogma of the Trinity and a ritual to bless cars. And lots of other things. Your point is?
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
But let's be a little gentler with the silly pejorative comments okay and looking down your nose on those 'other' Christians, even if you think God will damn them for being outside your denomination.
Who was talking about people being damned for being outside of my denomination? It sure wasn't me. And simply lay off the BVM, OK?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Last night I had a conversation with a more Protestant friend of mine. He said that he objected to Saints' Days because we don't know whether anyone actually has gone into heaven. He said "Even we don't know if Mary has gone into heaven or not."
Is the fact that we don't actually know if anyone has gone into heaven an obstacle to celebrating Saints?
Did your friend have any reasons why he should think any of the saints, including, Mary weren't in heaven? Or putting it another way, why does he think his 'not knowing' a thing should exclude the whole pantheon of would-be saints from the heavenly kingdom? I have no eye-witness knowledge that any of my dead Christian acquaintances are in heaven; but why should that be construed in such a way that I can't in faith assume they are there?
Good old, IngoB! The warm, respectful embrace of Catholic Ecumenism, eh?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And simply lay off the BVM, OK?
I have to admit I've only read what has been posted on this thread so far, so maybe your command to No Prophet is based on something else, but I can't see where he's been laying into her.
Anyway, why should anyone 'lay off' Mary? Or question whatever credentials particular Churches may choose to assign to her? Did you take the copyright out on her, or something?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
But let's be a little gentler with the silly pejorative comments okay and looking down your nose on those 'other' Christians, even if you think God will damn them for being outside your denomination.
Who was talking about people being damned for being outside of my denomination? It sure wasn't me.
Who missed the point here? It sure was you.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
But let's be a little gentler with the silly pejorative comments okay and looking down your nose on those 'other' Christians, even if you think God will damn them for being outside your denomination.
Who was talking about people being damned for being outside of my denomination? It sure wasn't me.
Who missed the point here? It sure was you.
Probably my fault - I thought I detected a humourous aside and tried to respond in like vein.
Fortunately the situation is unlikely to have any bearing on whether or not I end up in heaven.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Hagiography is great fun, but scripturally and theologically it is crap.
Today, for example, is the feast day of “Saints” Simon and Jude.
The latter is believed to be, according to the Penguin Dictionary Of Saints, “a powerful intercessor for those in desperate straits” – such as those trying to find a shred of biblical justification for the existence and veneration of a class of super-Christians called “saints”, when the NT quite clearly uses the word “saints” to refer to all believers.
I don’t have the faintest doubt that Mary, the theotokos, is in Heaven, but the only fly in the ointment of her blessed existence, and that of any unwarrantedly designated “saints” with her, is their embarrassment and exasperation at the unsought-for dulia and hyperdulia which is paid to them here on earth.
They are thoroughly pissed off.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Interesting to note that 'heaven' is assumed and taken for granted. I wonder how many different ideas of heaven there are in this thread. (I have not used the word 'definition'.)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
We know that Saints are Saints in exactly the same way that we know what constitutes the Bible and in exactly the same way that we know whatbajesus said and did: because the Church tells us so. But the argument goes straight to the heart of the Dead Horses of infallibility of the Church, the Petrine exercise of it and canonicity. Anglican Brat, I suggest you ask your "more Protestant friend" how he knows that this or that book of the Bible is part of the Canon. When you get him or her to the point where you both have to acknowledge that it was an act (or more properly acts) of the Church that determined the answer, you might then be able to begin to explore with him/her other ways in which those acts provide us with certainty.
[ 28. October 2012, 07:22: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The latter is believed to be, according to the Penguin Dictionary Of Saints, “a powerful intercessor for those in desperate straits” – such as those trying to find a shred of biblical justification for the existence and veneration of a class of super-Christians called “saints”, when the NT quite clearly uses the word “saints” to refer to all believers.
My understanding of the Catholic view is that any saint is able to intercede with God on our behalf but that the ones whom the church has recognised are the ones for whom that intercession has been proven and hence we have confirmation that they are saved. Certainly every believer is a saint, but canonisation is the official process of recognising that someone died a believer. The logic seems perfectly reasonable. Using "saints" to refer only to the church triumphant is, perhaps, a bad habit.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I think your Protestant friend is totally wrong.
The Protestant doctrine of assurance is confirmation that those who profess faith in Christ have within them a sure and certain hope of resurrection to eternal life. Therefore we must accept a person's sincere profession of faith as a sign that they are now with Christ.
As far as I am aware, Mary trusted God for her salvation (she said as much in the Magnificat) and was with the apostles and the others on the Day of Pentecost. I have no problem is saying that Mary is indeed with the Lord.
I would, of course, as a Protestant, say quite firmly that in All Saints day we don't just celebrate the lives of the BIG stained-glass saints, we also remember with thanks those saints who were known personally to us - a minister, a sunday school teacher, a member of the congregation - who encouraged us in our faith.
All Saints Day is a great way of celebrating the saving grace of God who has given eternal life to all who trust in Christ and made us all into his saints.
[ 28. October 2012, 07:39: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Whilst I understand that the official position lumps all non-RCCs together as excluded from heaven I don't suppose that means you think that we non-believers (or Hindus, Jains, Jedi etc. come to that) are just another variety of Protestant. I am therefore delighted to read that you have realised that atheists are not silly when we doubt that anyone is in heaven.
The official position is that non-RCCs are outside of THE CHURCH - likewise with Orthodox - it has never meant excluded from heaven. Similarly, those who are part of the Church are not necessarily bound for heaven, because we are all judged as individuals - according to our works.
I challenge any Protestant to argue that the Bible doesn't say that.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Whilst I understand that the official position lumps all non-RCCs together as excluded from heaven I don't suppose that means you think that we non-believers (or Hindus, Jains, Jedi etc. come to that) are just another variety of Protestant. I am therefore delighted to read that you have realised that atheists are not silly when we doubt that anyone is in heaven.
The official position is that non-RCCs are outside of THE CHURCH - likewise with Orthodox - it has never meant excluded from heaven. Similarly, those who are part of the Church are not necessarily bound for heaven, because we are all judged as individuals - according to our works.
I challenge any Protestant to argue that the Bible doesn't say that.
The Bible simply states that faith in God, trust in the saving work of Christ and the forgiveness of sins by grace through faith, evidenced in a godly life, is what is required.
The church is not a visible organisation outside which there may or may not be salvation, it is a spiritual body (with obvious human expressions) that is a fellowship of all those who believe and belong to Christ. There are a great many people who are in the Church who are not actually in the body of Christ.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Good old, IngoB! The warm, respectful embrace of Catholic Ecumenism, eh?
I'm not about to cuddle falsehood. That said, I respect quite a number of non-Catholic Shipmates more than some of the Catholic ones, and I mean for their faith. SoF is actually excellent for understanding how real ecumenism could work.
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I have to admit I've only read what has been posted on this thread so far, so maybe your command to No Prophet is based on something else, but I can't see where he's been laying into her.
If Mary is not in heaven, then she is burning in hell. For a Catholic, the suggestion is roughly the same as saying "Your mother is a two-bit whore!" Only actually much worse, given RC hyperdulia, but let's leave it at that. Nevertheless, apparently it is too strong language to call this "silly". OK, fine. So let's just not talk about the BVM, there are plenty of other saints to go around. That's my point.
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Anyway, why should anyone 'lay off' Mary? Or question whatever credentials particular Churches may choose to assign to her? Did you take the copyright out on her, or something?
I was trying to keep things civil. And yes, I guess Catholics are taking out a kind of copyright for the BVM by respecting her, loving her, venerating her, and if need be, standing up for her. It's not exclusive though: do the same, get the same rights.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Last night I had a conversation with a more Protestant friend of mine. He said that he objected to Saints' Days because we don't know whether anyone actually has gone into heaven. He said "Even we don't know if Mary has gone into heaven or not."
Is the fact that we don't actually know if anyone has gone into heaven an obstacle to celebrating Saints?
Did your friend have any reasons why he should think any of the saints, including, Mary weren't in heaven? Or putting it another way, why does he think his 'not knowing' a thing should exclude the whole pantheon of would-be saints from the heavenly kingdom? I have no eye-witness knowledge that any of my dead Christian acquaintances are in heaven; but why should that be construed in such a way that I can't in faith assume they are there?
I think it has to do with the deduction:
"We can't say who is in hell."-->
"We can't say who is in heaven either."
My opinion is that in either case, we aren't dealing with iron-clad, rock-solid certainty. We are dealing with faith. I can see a problem in assuming specific souls are in hell. I don't see a problem in assuming that people with extraordinary lives of faith and commitment who show the fruits of the Spirit in their earthly lives, now are in heaven and in eternal joy. So I don't see it as a bad thing believing that Mary, the Apostles, and other great people of faith, are in heaven.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I would, of course, as a Protestant, say quite firmly that in All Saints day we don't just celebrate the lives of the BIG stained-glass saints, we also remember with thanks those saints who were known personally to us - a minister, a sunday school teacher, a member of the congregation - who encouraged us in our faith.
All Saints Day is a great way of celebrating the saving grace of God who has given eternal life to all who trust in Christ and made us all into his saints.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) I bow to the Mudfrog.
The Catholic church's practice of naming saints doesn't bother me so long as they are suggested as examples -- I like the sports Hall-of-fame analogy upthread, but I've always disliked the idea of anyone from Mary, Mother of God to my own mother having to spend eternity listening to our earthly concerns. May they all rest in peace.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I don't think Mary is in Heaven or in Hell -- I think she is most likely asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection with the rest of the righteous dead (although as Scripture suggests a few individuals have been given exceptional special resurrection or direct access to heaven without dying, it also wouldn't trouble my faith to find she were in that category). Assuming that if I don't think she's in Heaven she must be burning in hell is the usual reductionist binary thinking that results from assuming everyone shares your presuppositions.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Bizarre as it may sound, how this sort of thing has been explained to me by RCs isn't a million miles from what Mudfrog has said - although in different terminology and from a different direction/frame of reference of course.
As far as I understand it, the veneration of BIG stained-glass Saints in no way excludes the grateful remembrance of small 's' ones or people who, by their godly example, have influenced us - be they parents, grandparents, Sunday school teachers or the bloke next door ...
Surely it's both/and not either/or ...
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
But perhaps that's a very Anglican thing of me to say ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
I've encouraged convents and others to get to k ow the saints and to have a personal relationship with them. Read their bios, pray for them and ask their prayers, remember them on their days. Of course they are in heaven, though without the fullness of the resurrection, so they are still awaiting the Consummation with us. Didn't Jesus say that he would never cast away those who came to him? Doesn't Luke say Elizabeth says Mary is highly favoured or full of grace? And Zechariah, and Elizabeth, and John and a few more?
Who can condemn these people to hell? Also, isn't what is bound on earth bound in heaven, so if these heroes are declared to be with God, what good would it do to say they re not. I have heard a Proddie minister declare some people to be burning in hell, viz. Presidents Wilson, FDR, Kennedy, Johnson and he hopes soon, Obama, but intend to think right wing nuts are unhinged theologically as we'll as politically.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
IngoB, I have no idea what you're like in real life. But posting on the Ship you come across to me as someone who cannot even begin to engage with anyone who is not you.
Your big challenge in life, it seems, is to realize that a lot of people disagree with you, no matter how right you think you are; and sniping and bitching at them is not a reasonable response. If you find yourself unable to respond usefully and respectfully, to robust challenges about peculiar aspects of your church belief, maybe you're in the wrong place, on a discussion board?
As for that challenge, I still can't see, by the way, where anyone apart from the quoted Protestant in the OP even suggested Mary was not in heaven, let alone burning in hell. (You see, again, not everyone has your belief in your idea of hell.) If you really think anyone here has called 'your' mother a whore then do the intelligent thing and take it to Hell.
It's good, important, to have the input of Roman Catholics and others on this thread, and what they think about what one particular Protestant said to Anglican Brat - but for some of us it's not really all about you, you know? It's nice of you to share your viewpoint, but most of us are perfectly capable of understanding your perspective without your slagging us off for not sharing it with you.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I don't think Mary is in Heaven or in Hell -- I think she is most likely asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection with the rest of the righteous dead (although as Scripture suggests a few individuals have been given exceptional special resurrection or direct access to heaven without dying, it also wouldn't trouble my faith to find she were in that category). Assuming that if I don't think she's in Heaven she must be burning in hell is the usual reductionist binary thinking that results from assuming everyone shares your presuppositions.
While the idea of people "asleep in their graves" till the resurrection is another heresy, it is not a particularly relevant one for the question at hand. Precisely by taking this on your terms, I arrive at my "binary" distinction. If this is what you say about Mary, then as far as I am concerned you are saying that Mary is in heaven. For you Mary is a Saint, as are the other righteous "dead". You are mistaken about her time of arrival, not about her destination.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As far as I understand it, the veneration of BIG stained-glass Saints in no way excludes the grateful remembrance of small 's' ones or people who, by their godly example, have influenced us - be they parents, grandparents, Sunday school teachers or the bloke next door ...
Surely it's both/and not either/or ... But perhaps that's a very Anglican thing of me to say ...
No, that's indeed stock standard RC teaching and practice. In fact, it is not merely "grateful remembrance", but you are quite welcome to venerate your saintly granny, ask for her intercession and so on. But the RCC has an official side to her worship. So the question is whether she will recommend to all faithful that they should venerate your saintly granny, that churches be dedicated to her, statues and icons made of her, maybe even that she gets a day in the liturgical cycle. And that is what canonisation is about.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
While the idea of people "asleep in their graves" till the resurrection is another heresy, it is not a particularly relevant one for the question at hand.
< tangent > Why is saying people are asleep until the final resurrection heresy? It is entirely biblical.
Jesus was the first fruit. Nothing about Mary in heaven in the bible. I don't see why she should be. < end tangent >
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
If you find yourself unable to respond usefully and respectfully, to robust challenges about peculiar aspects of your church belief, maybe you're in the wrong place, on a discussion board?
I think I am doing just fine here, but thanks for your concern.
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
As for that challenge, I still can't see, by the way, where anyone apart from the quoted Protestant in the OP even suggested Mary was not in heaven, let alone burning in hell.
And I merely called such Protestants "silly", but amazingly was taken to task even for that. (Well, I wasn't really amazed, of course.)
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
If you really think anyone here has called 'your' mother a whore then do the intelligent thing and take it to Hell.
I believe SoF "hell calls" are a terrible idea of managing conflict, and are decidedly un-Christian. Hell calls are not "intelligent", they are childish and nasty, and totally unnecessary. But this is not Styx.
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
It's good, important, to have the input of Roman Catholics and others on this thread, and what they think about what one particular Protestant said to Anglican Brat - but for some of us it's not really all about you, you know?
That presumably means that sometime soon you will shut up about me, and I would highly appreciate that.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The official position is that non-RCCs are outside of THE CHURCH...
No it isn't. The official position is that all the baptised are, in some way, inside THE CHURCH.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
While the idea of people "asleep in their graves" till the resurrection is another heresy, it is not a particularly relevant one for the question at hand. Precisely by taking this on your terms, I arrive at my "binary" distinction. If this is what you say about Mary, then as far as I am concerned you are saying that Mary is in heaven. For you Mary is a Saint, as are the other righteous "dead". You are mistaken about her time of arrival, not about her destination.
Awaiting entry into Heaven = is in Heaven? Ingo, you don't by any chance work in customer services for a railway company, do you?
Irate passenger: "This train was due into London at 3 o'clock: it's now 3.15 and we're still stuck in the middle of nowhere somewhere near Swindon!"
Ingo B : "I beg your pardon sir, you are in London- you are just mistaken about your time of arrival".
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@InGoB - sure, I appreciate that aspect too and know of RCs who would invoke the aid of their departed Granny and so on in a way that most Protestants would baulk at ...
But I take your point.
I may also be in a minority here as I didn't take your comment about the Protestant mentioned in the OP as a repudiation of all Protestants - although I don't doubt that you are capable of such a thing ...
I would very much doubt whether that particular Protestant's viewpoint reflects any kind of mainstream Proddy view. I suspect that Mudfrog's post, with a few tweaks here and there to represent particular flavours or approaches within Protestantism, would be nearer the mark. I've never come across any Protestant that I know of who'd suggest that Mary was anywhere else other than in heaven (however they understood that).
I would agree that Protestantism per se can be prone to idiosyncratic and individualistic interpretations of things - that's axiomatic and comes with the territory. That doesn't mean that we Prots see all such idiosyncratic or, in this case 'silly' (as Mudfrog rightly observes), or eccentric 'takes' as being equally valid. Far from it.
That does beg a few questions, of course, but by and large we do have some kind of notion of received tradition (as well as biblical and to some extent collegial authority) ... although I do wonder at times I must admit ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
As far as I am aware, the universal church affirms its belief in the 'communion of saints'. This is presumably a statement about the nature of the Church. All the baptised are members of the church, both the living and the departed. People do not cease to be members of the church at their death.
If we can ask Aunt Maude on her way to church to 'say one for me', so we might also be able to ask Aunt Cecily who has 'died' to say one as well; they are both members of the Christian fellowship through baptism, undivided by death in the Ark of Christ's Church.
Some Christians have shown forth exemplary lives and the church holds them up as examples. They are not the only ones - and the feast of All Saints is especially set aside for the myriads of saints of whom we know nothing.
Traditional RC teaching has used the idea of the church being in three parts: The Church Militant (the faithful on earth); the Church Expectant (those awaiting final judgment); the Church Triumphant (the saints and angels and archangels already in Heaven).
The Blessed Vrigin Mary, through her motherhood and discipleship would therefore be in heaven. But this is just what is the fate of all the faithful. To use a well known grave inscription:
'Take heed all ye who look on here;
As ye are now, so once I were;
As I am now, so shall ye be;
So be prepared to follow me.'
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And you clearly do not understand the RC position on the population of heaven.
Disagreement does not merit your suggestion of misunderstanding. Stop it please. Neither silly nor lacking in knowledge thank you very much. You're turning this into a issue of attitude.
There are some parts of the world where RC, Lutherans, Anglicans, and others work very closely together, share chaplaincies, church buildings, church suppers, summer camps and church schools, potlucks, retreat centres, and we actually work at being more inclusive of each other. This old fashioned holier than thou stuff has got to go. Whether it's about BVM or BVDs. If mother church wishes to embrace all of humanity, it will come because its people are willing.
You should know that disagreement within the RC church is constant and healthy. What does anyone think the college of cardinals is? It's among other things, a giant debating society. That's why they bother to discuss things. The unity is expressed by common faith and cup.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
< tangent > Why is saying people are asleep until the final resurrection heresy? It is entirely biblical. ... < end tangent >
First, I do not use "heresy" to indicate something that is beyond the pale of all Christian belief. I use the word in its original sense. For me anything contrary to RC dogma is heresy, and this is contrary to RC dogma. (And I hope to be a heretic to all Protestants.) Second, RC dogma is not based on the bible alone, but also on tradition, and the idea that anything can be proven or disproven from scripture by force of reasonable argument alone is a Protestant delusion which I do not share. Third, if you want some scripture, then try Sir 11:26-27; Lk 16:22-23; Lk 23:43; Act 1:25; Phili 1:23; 2 Cor 5:7-8, which show the immediate reward or punishment at death.
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Awaiting entry into Heaven = is in Heaven? Ingo, you don't by any chance work in customer services for a railway company, do you?
In the same sense that people in purgatory loosely can be considered of heaven, so the supposed "righteous dead asleep in their graves" can as well. The point is that their destination is already fixed, and they will not be counted among the doomed. What is a little temporal wait compared to eternity?
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And you clearly do not understand the RC position on the population of heaven.
Disagreement does not merit your suggestion of misunderstanding. Stop it please. Neither silly nor lacking in knowledge thank you very much. You're turning this into a issue of attitude.
Oh for fuck's sake... The statement you quote was in response to HughWillRidmee, who AFAIK is an atheist (not a Protestant), and who claimed "Whilst I understand that the official position lumps all non-RCCs together as excluded from heaven...". That's simply a falsehood, and my response was both reasonable and restrained. Now, I'm going to continue calling spades spades, and if that hurts your precious feelings, then that is just too bad.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
There are some parts of the world where RC, Lutherans, Anglicans, and others work very closely together, share chaplaincies, church buildings, church suppers, summer camps and church schools, potlucks, retreat centres, and we actually work at being more inclusive of each other. This old fashioned holier than thou stuff has got to go.
By all means, do celebrate that newfangled less holy than you with your like-minded Lutheran, Anglican and even RC inclusivists. You richly deserve each other.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
You should know that disagreement within the RC church is constant and healthy. ... The unity is expressed by common faith and cup.
One shudders to know what faith can remain common given such constant and healthy disagreement.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The statement you quote was in response to HughWillRidmee, who AFAIK is an atheist (not a Protestant), and who claimed "Whilst I understand that the official position lumps all non-RCCs together as excluded from heaven...". That's simply a falsehood, and my response was both reasonable and restrained. Now, I'm going to continue calling spades spades, and if that hurts your precious feelings, then that is just too bad.
Atheist, humanist, freethinker, ex-protestant (which may help to explain my attempt at a light-hearted riposte) – I’ll happily answer to all of them.
Logic circuit not working too well recently? You are totally wrong about my statement being a falsehood; you’d have been right had you said that my understanding was wrong – but you didn’t did you? Just like wording your original comment in such a loose way that I could have a bit of fun with it.
Perhaps you’d get less grief if you made sure that what you write means the same to the reader as you think it means when you type it?
quote:
First, I do not use "heresy" to indicate something that is beyond the pale of all Christian belief. I use the word in its original sense. For me anything contrary to RC dogma is heresy, and this is contrary to RC dogma
I don’t suppose you agree with Wikipedia but it says
“The term heresy is from Greek αἵρεσις originally meant "choice", but also referred to that process whereby a young person would examine various philosophies to determine how to live one's life. The word "heresy" is usually used within a Christian, Jewish, or Islamic context, and implies slightly different meanings in each.
Heresy was redefined by the Catholic Church as a belief that conflicted with established Catholic dogma”
original as in “as redefined some time ago”?
quote:
RC dogma is not based on the bible alone, but also on tradition, and the idea that anything can be proven or disproven from scripture by force of reasonable argument alone is a Protestant delusion which I do not share.
Tradition as a justification for anything (RCC, Protestant, Muslim, Scientific or Atheist) is silly; it can’t always have been tradition can it? There must have been a time, before the idea became traditional, when someone thought they had a valid justification and, for all I know, that justification might still be valid. But offering “tradition” as a magic word, as if to avoid admitting that the original justification has been mislaid, is lazy, perhaps disingenuous and morally iffy isn’t it?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why is it, IngoB, that I'm smiling nicely at you? When I was so nasty last time? You, better than ANY here, defend the pragmatism of God, for which I have a lasting mental redoubt, regardless of the unparalleled impact that Brina McClaren is having on me.
I was agreeing with a Jew and Muslim against a damnationist on TV this morning.
What's going on?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I was going to say that I have no problem with IngoB identifying any of my views as heresy since I'm pretty sure his definition of heresy is "not the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church," under which definition I'm fine with being labelled a heretic (as long as you lot don't go back to that whole burning-at-the-stake business which made being a heretic such a hard row to hoe).
Since I had that thought but no time to post it, IngoB has helpfully clarified the point, so I see that my assumption was correct. Believing that the righteous dead are asleep until the resurrection is, of course, a completely Biblical view, but not the particular interpretation of the Bible supported by the RCC so, by that particular definition, you can certainly call it a heresy if it pleases you to do so.
However, I sort of agree with you on the larger question -- that it is a matter of time rather than of ultimate destination. If you ask me do I think Mary, the mother of Jesus is in Heaven, I would say, "As far as I know, she's not at the moment." But if you ask me do I think Mary WILL BE in heaven, my answer would be "Almost certainly yes." Likewise for most of the people the Church counts "saints" -- I would confidently expect to see them in Heaven someday. The reason I don't ask them now to intercede with God for me is not that I doubt their holiness, but that in their present state I don't think they're capable of it.
[ 28. October 2012, 19:08: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I think the original question asked here is somewhat pointless. I can think of a number of things to say that would make people mad at me, but why do so?
An obvious parallel question is this: Do we know for certain that anyone at all is in Hell (whatever that means)?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Logic circuit not working too well recently? You are totally wrong about my statement being a falsehood; you’d have been right had you said that my understanding was wrong – but you didn’t did you?
To the contrary, that's precisely what I did in my original response to you. Now however I'm explaining to no prophet why I was correcting your understanding, namely because it was claiming a slanderous falsehood about the RCC. Unintentionally, I suppose.
(This message was brought to you by doctrinal.huggy-bear.com. Get all your warm ecumenical embraces in one place. Now with deep discounts for heretical denominations and a supervised playground for atheists.)
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I don’t suppose you agree with Wikipedia but it says ...
The actual first sentence of the Wikipedia definition reads: "A heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs." No, I think that's a fair enough general description.
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
original as in “as redefined some time ago”?
Sure, where some time ago is latest the 2nd century AD, with Irenaeus' Against Heresies (as you could have found out by actually reading the Wikipedia page that you linked to). That's old enough for me to establish the proper use of this word in the Christian context.
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Tradition as a justification for anything (RCC, Protestant, Muslim, Scientific or Atheist) is silly; it can’t always have been tradition can it?
Indeed. RC tradition is primarily based on what Jesus Christ taught the apostles, and secondarily on the prior revelation of God to the chosen people, which had multiple times of origin. This tradition is not magic, it is Divine.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
That presumably means that sometime soon you will shut up about me, and I would highly appreciate that.
You don't say. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Well, I would appreciate it if you could stop slagging off Protestants in such a snide and arrogant way (not that I imagine for a moment that'll happen). But as this is a public forum I think you should have the freedom to slag people off, as long as those who disagree with you have the freedom to call you on that.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
InGoB, even if my name were Pope Benedict XVI and my address No. 1 Papal Chambers, The Vatican, Vatican City and I were the most ultramontane of Ultramontane Roman Catholics who had ever lived, I would still think you were a prat ...
I hope that still lies within the bounds of Purgatorial debate. If it isn't I would happily take it up in Hell only I doubt it'd do any good.
Leopards don't change their spots and prats remain prats on whatever board they appear.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Well, I would appreciate it if you could stop slagging off Protestants in such a snide and arrogant way (not that I imagine for a moment that'll happen).
Can you imagine many Catholics or Orthodox that would say "Even we don't know if Mary has gone into heaven or not"?
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I hope that still lies within the bounds of Purgatorial debate.
Hardly.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
IngoB's profane and pretentious defensiveness makes this rather difficult to discuss. There are parts of the world outside his little bubble where myths and old ideas have adapted necessarily to actually care about people. Where Mary is less important than fellow human beings who are suffering today. When their towns used to have 1500 people and now have 300, with next towns unincorporated and almost disappeared, and the town where things are actually going as they did 40 years is 300 km away, where the temperatures in winter go to -40°C and in summer to +40, where people actually greet their neighbours and pitch in to help them when there's a need. Where there wouldn't be a community Christmas celebration and pageant without all coming together. Where someone dying and their family wouldn't have someone to pray with them if not from another denomination. Where there is no money to pay for anything more. Send them to hell or some other place in your mind if you wish. But some of us think we need to adapt and try to figure out how to live together and pray together. Oh, and about half of them are Roman Catholics, and they express no vitriol.
[ 28. October 2012, 20:57: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The official position is that non-RCCs are outside of THE CHURCH...
No it isn't. The official position is that all the baptised are, in some way, inside THE CHURCH.
Fair comment - this is true as well, provided it is a Trinitarian Baptism.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So whither Muslims? Buddhists? Jews? Hindus? Sikhs? Neanderthals? The aborted?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
[qb]Well, I would appreciate it if you could stop slagging off Protestants in such a snide and arrogant way (not that I imagine for a moment that'll happen).
Can you imagine many Catholics or Orthodox that would say "Even we don't know if Mary has gone into heaven or not"?
That would be the honest response, surely? None of us KNOW, even if we believe it. It's a matter of faith and not fact.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So whither Muslims? Buddhists? Jews? Hindus? Sikhs? Neanderthals? The aborted?
Will the judge of all the earth not do right?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So whither Muslims? Buddhists? Jews? Hindus? Sikhs? Neanderthals? The aborted?
Will the judge of all the earth not do right?
I'm not quite sure which post Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard was referring to, but I was talking about Baptism and belonging to the Church, NOT Salvation and everlasting life.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
IngoB's profane and pretentious defensiveness makes this rather difficult to discuss. There are parts of the world outside his little bubble where myths and old ideas have adapted necessarily to actually care about people. Where Mary is less important than fellow human beings who are suffering today. When their towns used to have 1500 people and now have 300, with next towns unincorporated and almost disappeared, and the town where things are actually going as they did 40 years is 300 km away, where the temperatures in winter go to -40°C and in summer to +40, where people actually greet their neighbours and pitch in to help them when there's a need. ...
Wow. Just ... wow. I'm not sure what you are tripping on, but I would take it a bit easy.
quote:
Originally posted by no Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So whither Muslims? Buddhists? Jews? Hindus? Sikhs? Neanderthals? The aborted?
Well, Siddhartha Gautama, the Shakayamuni Buddha, is the Catholic and Orthodox Saint Josaphat. I bet we can find some Muslim ones, not sure about Hindus and Sikhs is unlikely. Neanderthals, well, who was Cain afraid of?
This is nominally still about Saints, is it? Because I feel "I am the walrus" coming on.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
That would be the honest response, surely? None of us KNOW, even if we believe it. It's a matter of faith and not fact.
Yeah, this really is all about epistemology. Not.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
![[Smile]](smile.gif) WOL - what are YOU on IngoB ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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