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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: American 'gun culture' - fact or fiction?
doctor-frog

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This thread is to prevent hijacking of the 'Why are "our" lives more important?' thread.

The premise was Americans taking issue with the common UK description of the US as a 'gun culture'.

Have fun, kids. [Smile]

Here are my responses to specific comments in the other thread:

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by doctor-frog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mirrizin:

With all due respect, as a resident of a major US city, I can assure you we don't live in a "gun culture."

With equal respect, as a some-time resident of small US cities and major UK ones, I couldn't disagree more.

From Wikipedia (that repository of all true wisdom): 'Currently, 48 U.S. states allow some form of concealed carry. (About half of the states provide for some variant on non-concealed "open-carry". In 13 states, the same permit or license is required to open-carry a handgun, but most states do not require a permit or license to carry openly; in 6 states, even with concealed-carry licenses or permits, open-carry is absolutely prohibited.)'

For people from the UK, it seems a no-brainer that if the problem is gun crime, then putting more on the streets through outlets like Wal-Mart is not the solution. Only in America could the gun lobby immediately put out a statement saying, 'We pray for all those dead kids -- but, y'know, if one of 'em had had a gun, they'd have stopped that guy about 20 bodies before they did.'

For the news media -- and possibly the people -- in the US, a tragedy likes this simply revives the decades-old gun control debate, which the gun lobby invariably wins. A wide-scale, far-reaching gun ban, however, even for gun-control proponents is never seen to be an option worth raising. The gun is acceptable to most, even sacrosanct to some. And that's why we call it a 'gun culture' over here. It's not that everybody has one; it's that almost anybody could have one, and that seems to be o.k. with most Americans.

For myself I'll keep my Anglo-American kids over here.

which earned Response 1:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Almost all of us don't carry guns, discuss guns or give a shit about guns. It is an odd opinion to thus suggest our culture is obsessed with the things. Mental note.

(Following that logic, Britain must be knife culture.)

It's the 'not giving a shit about guns' that worries me. Gun crime is endemic in the States, due (naturally) to their wide availability, and if 'nobody gives a shit' that is worrying.

Call Britain a knife culture if you wish, but that kid in Virginia (or those kids in Columbine) wouldn't have been able to do the damage they did, had they been armed only with knives or -- say -- unwound paperclips. That business about 'guns don't kill people; people kill people' is all well and good; but guns sure make the job more efficient. (It's why the military tend to invest so heavily in them, I'm given to understand!)

And Response 2:

quote:
Originally posted by sabine:

Where are you going to find a safe place for your children with no crimes of passion and mental instability?

none. As mentioned elsewhere, Dunblaine still looms large in many people's minds here in the UK.

that said, such incidents are a rarity, and nobody questions the need to restrict public access to guns as a result. for a large portion of America (and the side that inevitably wins the political debate) such a reaction to Virginia Tech would be anathema; as it was with Columbine and the University of Texas.

The harder it is for the average imbalanced individual to get his hands on a gun, the less chance your kids will get shot. Simple maths.

I've seen a guy get shot in a mugging in the US in a fairly average crime in a piddly small city; but contrast I've walked through some of the worst parts of London at 3 am and only once ever felt especially unsafe. Maybe that colours my view; and I suspect my experience is still limited; but I'm not just another Brit initiating a 'pond war' either.

quote:
Originally posted by sabine:


There is no *one* American culture that a gun sub-culture could be a part of. Guns are used by various people for various reasons, some of them having to do with sub-cultures, some of them not.
...
Yes, guns are an issue and more avaialable here than in some other countries--and many of us in the US don't like the current laws--but guns aren't a culture, no matter how badly people might want to think that they are to justify a stereotype.

But there are many American sub-cultures (and individuals) into which the armaments industry penetrates. A far smaller variety of guns are used by far fewer various people here for a far smaller array of purposes.

When you propose such limitations on Americans, certainly there's loud and controversial debate, including many who would gladly limit gun access. But those voices are never really taken seriously by the people who make the laws. And it never really changes anything.

FWIW, I'm not stereotyping American culture -- not deliberately, anyway; I'm speaking from 27 years of living in a gun heartland and 12 of living in Europe.


quote:

And since when has Wiki been considered rock solid evidence?

just a quick ref., as I implied. I'm sure you can go to all 50 states' websites to review their concealed-carry laws; but I just thought this was quicker. [Smile]


quote:

I suspect that the man who committed mass murder at Virginia Tech would have found another way to enact his rage if guns had not been available--that's the sad fact.

oh, he almost surely would have cracked and acted out in some way -- but I don't buy for a minute that it would have been equally deadly. he'd find it difficult, for example, to get his hands on C4. And a pointed stick just wouldn't kill so many people so quickly as a 500 mph piece of metal penetrating their flesh. Somebody probably could have stopped him, if he'd only had a pointed stick.

[ 10. August 2007, 00:09: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

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MerlintheMad
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In Utah, there is an average of six firearms per household. I have never considered myself as living in a "gun culture." People don't flaunt their guns. They keep them locked up when not in use. Hunting is very big around here. We like our guns. Thousands of Utahns have concealed carry permits.
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MerlintheMad
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"Pointed stick", heh. Let's not fail to mention the time-honored way of "going out with panache" in parts of Asia: with a broadsword in the marketplace. That can wipe out quite a few people before the sword wielder is finally taken down. Had this South Korean man known his swordsmanship, and disdained guns, we would be talking about fewer dead, probably, but a crime no less grissly or horrific. Would we then ban swords?
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Gwai
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Doctor Frog,

Thanks for the in depth response. I will attempt an answer to do you justice. But first a quick comment: You comment that you've seen a robbery with a gun here and thuslyfeel safer in very sketchy parts of England at night. If I may say so, I'm guessing you're male. Unfortunately, most women have been taught to feel uncomfortable at night in bad neighborhoods because such worries keep us safer. And believe me, guns aren't even slightly what's worrying me in that case, either!

--------------------
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A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
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doctor-frog

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Doctor Frog,

Thanks for the in depth response. I will attempt an answer to do you justice. But first a quick comment: You comment that you've seen a robbery with a gun here and thuslyfeel safer in very sketchy parts of England at night. If I may say so, I'm guessing you're male. Unfortunately, most women have been taught to feel uncomfortable at night in bad neighborhoods because such worries keep us safer. And believe me, guns aren't even slightly what's worrying me in that case, either!

I am male. And, yes, I respect what you're saying there.
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doctor-frog

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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
In Utah, there is an average of six firearms per household. I have never considered myself as living in a "gun culture." People don't flaunt their guns. They keep them locked up when not in use. Hunting is very big around here. We like our guns. Thousands of Utahns have concealed carry permits.

personally, I'm as o.k. with a farm / hunting shotgun as any vegetarian is capable of being. It's the guns that primarily kill people and are intended to kill people (offensively or defensively) that I have a problem with. (Or those used mainly for other purposes, but bought in circumstances where killing people is the most likely prospect.)

As for 'gun culture' -- would you say you live in an 'LDS culture' -- even when people don't flaunt it? If guns are such a prevailing ethic, for whatever reason, it does lend itself to that conclusion, even if you don't personally give it much of a thought from day to day. I'd certainly say that where I was in the States was a gun culture -- precisely because they were so de-rigeur that we didn't give them any real thought.


quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
Had this South Korean man known his swordsmanship, and disdained guns, we would be talking about fewer dead, probably, but a crime no less grissly or horrific. Would we then ban swords?

actually, certain types of martial arts swords are indeed banned here except under specific controlled and/or licensed condiitons.

I'm perfectly cool with that. I don't think anybody has an automatic right to a device deliberately designed to inflict damage on other people -- gun or otherwise.

[ 18. April 2007, 16:22: Message edited by: doctor-frog ]

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PataLeBon
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One could say that I lived in a gun culture. It was not unusual for the area that I gre up in for kinds to bring guns to school in High School. Although they weren't brought into the classroom, but were in the gun rack in the back of the truck.

It was a past time to show each other what guns you had.

But it was always the fact that the guns were used for hunting, and maybe target practice, but that was just to get ready for hunting season.

Is that gun culture? Probably. Would any of then think twice about it. No.

Is it that kind of culture that causes murder? No. None of them thought that guns were used to kill people. (Well, they knew that guns used unsafely would.) But wanting to kill someone wasn't something that they thought about.

So when someone tells me that people kill people, not guns, I know that it's true. Can someone with a gun kill more people than with a knife? Yes.

Of course a moving truck with a homemade bomb can kill many more people. An airplane flown into a building can kill even more.

What makes more sense is to look at how we prevent people with the desire to kill large amounts of people from carrying out their desires.

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Gwai
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I think sometimes nonAmericans forget how bloody large America is. Some of our states are much bigger than many countries. It is very possible for parts of my state to be rural enough that hunting is exceedingly important (and thus there is a lobby to support gun use) while other parts of the state are places where almost few people want anyone besides their policemen to own guns--if them!

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A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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sabine
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Doctor-Frog--you've avoided responding (or copying from the other thread) some of the issues I brought up about what culture is and how "gun culture" is a misnomer and inaccurate concept, even though the use of guns and the availability of guns is an issue that many worry about for various reasons.

Or do you believe that there is one main American Culture and "gun culture" is part of that? If so, then every single American will be part of gun culture, and I can assure you that is not the case.

I recognize that you've had certain experiences in this country that lead you to extrapolate to the entire country, but we're 300 million people of various ethnicities, ideas about government, settling arguments, dealing with pain and frustration, not to mention religious prohibitions against using firearms--hardly a unified body in which the gun is a prominant part.

I think you are confusing "culture" and "society" and even in that confusion, you've placed the gun further up the ladder than it really is for the majority of us here.

Citing gun laws doesn't support a case for gun issues to be part of a *cultural* underpining of a society. Even the old stereotype of the frontiersman going into the woods with just his rifle is pretty much inaccurate.

Debating this stereotype takes away from larger and more important questions, like why do people commit violent crimes. I think the percentage of people who think I have a gun, I might as well kill or guns are the first thing to use in a conflict situation is relatively low, despite media-driven ideas.

In a true gun culture, using a gun as a first-line tool would be something socialized into *every* child. And in a true gun culture, no laws would impede that notion. Obviously, these things are simply not cultural at the level of national identity.

Following the logic of a "gun culture" Gwai wondered about a "knife culture" in Britain, and I (less seriously and only for purposes of discussion) wondered about a "hijack-the-thread" culture on the Ship.

I don't really believe there is a hijack culture on the Ship--in fact, I don't think there is one Ship culture at all. But if you use the gun culture reasoning....

1) many threads are hijacked (the many crimes), and

2) there seem to be policies about it (like gun laws), and

3) different threads have hosts to enforce the policies (law enforcement), but

4) people keep hijacking threads, so it must be a culture.

I think we advance the issue of gun violence in a way more open to discussion and problem solving if we stay away from trying to portray it as ingrained and start asking ourselves how we can make sure that people are responsible with weapons, how people can control their anger in better ways, how societies everywhere can seek peaceful coflict resolution and more compassion for those who are in a place where they feel they have few options besides death.

In every culture (or set of sub-cultures) there are areas for improvement. These areas are easier to recognize and address IMHO if stereotyping is kept to a minimum.

sabine

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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by doctor-frog:
personally, I'm as o.k. with a farm / hunting shotgun as any vegetarian is capable of being. It's the guns that primarily kill people and are intended to kill people (offensively or defensively) that I have a problem with. (Or those used mainly for other purposes, but bought in circumstances where killing people is the most likely prospect.)

But nutjobs don't use any gun for killing to eat: they kill because they want to kill. Preventing innocent people from having equal firepower cabability runs counter to the ethic that the most fundamental personal right is the right to defend your own life.

quote:
As for 'gun culture' -- would you say you live in an 'LDS culture' -- even when people don't flaunt it?
Oh, I didn't say I don't live in a gun culture: I simply meant that I never thought of it (considered it) that way; or noticed it at all, until this subject got raised the first time (way back when) by "outsiders" who were being critical (to say the least).

Yes, I live in a gun culture. LDS people love their guns possibly even more than the non LDS do: we have this "justified defense" ethic that hails back to our early days of persecution: and in the Book of Mormon, the greatest heros are men of the sword and men of God. Gotta love that mixture!

quote:
actually, certain types of martial arts swords are indeed banned here except under specific controlled and/or licensed condiitons.

I'm perfectly cool with that. I don't think anybody has an automatic right to a device deliberately designed to inflict damage on other people -- gun or otherwise.

Maybe not an automatic right. But if the likelihood of mayhem exists, it is just plain wrong to allow the perps to have their moment of "glory" and deny the victims equal or superior force.
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doctor-frog

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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
But nutjobs don't use any gun for killing to eat: they kill because they want to kill. Preventing innocent people from having equal firepower cabability runs counter to the ethic that the most fundamental personal right is the right to defend your own life.
Maybe not an automatic right. But if the likelihood of mayhem exists, it is just plain wrong to allow the perps to have their moment of "glory" and deny the victims equal or superior force.

This is exactly why Brits are so (IMO quite rightly) befuddled by American culture. When the problem is guns that are available in Wal-Mart, it's very hard to see why the solution would be putting more on the street.

Whereas to the British mind, if the problem is gun crime, you make them equally unavailable to all. Then you've only got your pointed sticks to contend with. [Biased]

The American logic is, to me, a non-sense. Of course, even in a society where guns are totally illegal, some unbalanced person will eventually be able to lay hands on one. But to suggest that, because of that, everybody should be able to have one doesn't follow.

By that logic, everybody should be given access to the kind of explosives that what's-his-name in Oklahoma City had in 1995 -- because you never know when you're going to have to defend yourself against his ilk having their moment of glory.

By far, the lion's share of the mad-men/women would be less able -- and less able to figure out how -- to get a gun here. The one who can doesn't mean that a lot more lives wouldn't be saved.

[ 18. April 2007, 16:47: Message edited by: doctor-frog ]

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sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by doctor-frog:
This is exactly why Brits are so (IMO quite rightly) befuddled by American culture.

Can you explain to me exactly what "American Culture" is?

I'm a pacifist Quaker, daughter/gradndaughter of immigrants, have good relationships with my neighbors, live in a club-oriented neighborhood but don't own a weapon to "defend myself," don't shop at Wal-Mart...I could continue listing things that fall outside the range you are discussing as if they are part of all of us over here.

Should I stop calling myself American until I can get with the program?

sabine

[ 18. April 2007, 16:53: Message edited by: sabine ]

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doctor-frog

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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
quote:
Originally posted by doctor-frog:
This is exactly why Brits are so (IMO quite rightly) befuddled by American culture.

Can you explain to me exactly what "American Culture" is?

I'm a pacifist Quaker, daughter/gradndaughter of immigrants, have good relationships with my neighbors, live in a club-oriented neighborhood but don't own a weapon to "defend myself," don't shop at Wal-Mart...I could continue listing things that fall outside the range you are discussing as if they are part of all of us over here.

Should I stop calling myself American until I can get with the program?

sabine

all right -- fair point. but you have to apply a certain amount of generalities and demographics to these discussions to make any sense; otherwise it just becomes hole-picking.

There are a handful of Christians in Turkey -- and important ones, at that. But, by and large, I'd call it a Muslim culture. There are a handful of Christians in India -- some communities dating back 2000 years. But by and large I'd call India a Hindu or Hindu/Muslim culture.

I'm glad you don't shop at Wal-Mart -- but they wouldn't be the massive conglomerate they are if nobody else in America did, either.

i'm sure I wouldn't fit into many/most of the demographics we're talking about either. (But, then, that may be why I 'fit' better here than there.) Doesn't mean the broader sweep of the culture goes along with me.

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ToujoursDan

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This is also very regional. When I lived in Dallas the subject came up and I asked several of my co-workers who are mostly urban, college educated, professional types and found that all of them owned a gun - from hyper-masculine men to old ladies.

When I asked why? It usually came down to no one trusted the police to do their job in a timely or effective manner and that they needed to take the law into their own hands and defend themselves.

Then when I asked "So do you keep the gun loaded with the safety off, next to your bed so that its ready if someone comes into your house with a loaded gun?", the answer was always no. They were almost always locked in safes or lockboxes with the bullets out because they were afraid kids would get a hold of them.

I didn't go any farther with my questioning (Like "If it's going to take you 5-10 minutes to find the key to your safe, get the gun out, find the bullets and load it what's the point?") because it would have come across as judgemental [Eek!]

At the same time, when I ask people in New York City if they own guns, no one I have encountered does (though I am sure some do) and they regard it as a bit redneckish.

So there isn't an across the board gun culture in America.

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doctor-frog

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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
This is also very regional. . . {etc. etc.}

100% agree.
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sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by doctor-frog:
all right -- fair point. but you have to apply a certain amount of generalities and demographics to these discussions to make any sense; otherwise it just becomes hole-picking.

Thank you for taking my last post seriously. I had a hard time finding the right words because I feel so strongly that if we do apply the kinds of generalities that come up in discussions like this, we miss opportunities to discuss some really important underlying issues.

For example, I work with refugees. Some of them come from countries that a person might categorize in one way, but they are different (religion, culture, etc). How can I help them if I don't recognize that there are differences within the larger whole?

I am very serious also about gun control (assuming an equally passionate non-gun control people will respoond to that) because I'd rather we limit the ability to do harm. That doesn't mean that I think we are going to get rid of the ability to do harm completely, but we can do something to limit it.

But at a deeper level, I think we have to look at how we teach our children (or better still, other children--maybe the "less deserving" children) to deal with the frustrations that come in a complicated world. If we don't go to this point in discussions, debating whether or not the US is a gun culture will just take time and energy we could use for better purposes.

Might we not start--all of us--with the idea that if we teach our children well <stop me before I start quoting that Crosby, Stills, and Nash song> the ideas of other means of conflict resolution can have a chance.

Just yesterday I made note of (and have subsequently lost) a book written by a former boy soldier. The socialization process of child soldiers is a lesson for us all, and takes years sometimes to undo.

So, the gun issue is not an easy one to think about, discuss, or deal with IRL.

Perhaps we can put more of our thinking time toward the issues (and there are many) themselves and leave the debates about national identity.

sabine

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Trin
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quote:
Following that logic, Britain must be knife culture.
Not so. It is not culturally or legally acceptable to own a knife for the purpose of self defence. The kind of knives which are designed for damaging people are not readily available. Knives are not sold as weapons defensive or otherwise.

quote:
What makes more sense is to look at how we prevent people with the desire to kill large amounts of people from carrying out their desires.
In theory, yes! But in practice I think this makes less sense. I assume you are talking about some kind of "minder" system. Or ad campaigns urging people to watch out for irrational or suspicious behaviour or signs of mental illness in their neighbours. Both seem impractical and unlikely to be implemented. Or else what kind of measures are you thinking of?

Short of creating an extreme big brother society, I think there will always be dangerous people around.

quote:
Preventing innocent people from having equal firepower cabability runs counter to the ethic that the most fundamental personal right is the right to defend your own life.
[HIJACK]Then why don't we let Iran build nukes?[/HIJACK]
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sabine
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postscript to my previous post....

My family and relatives actually found their way to pacifism after arriving in the United States and then passed it along to me.

And they were deeply interested in acculturating.

So, there must be a way to become an American without taking on the so-called gun culture.

sabine

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chicklegirl
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quote:
Originally posted by doctor-frog:
you have to apply a certain amount of generalities and demographics to these discussions to make any sense; otherwise it just becomes hole-picking.

I think you are painting with too broad a brush here, doctor-frog, even if it is to make your point (which isn't much of a point if it's not based on sound logic). It's tempting to paint America as having an over-arching gun culture because of the way we are portrayed in our own media and entertainment. It's definitely true that violence and guns are glorified in American movies and on TV, and most likely thas played a part in the increase of violent crime in the U.S., as the public becomes desensitized to violence and destruction, and sees it as a viable solution for personal and social problems.

However, in order to prove that crimes committed with guns are a product of our concealed carry laws, you'd have to provide some compelling statistics that the majority of those crimes were committed with legally obtained guns. Which you haven't done. If you can do so, I will be much more likely to be convinced.

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Horseman Bree
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I posted this on the parallel Hell thread, where it sank. It does seem more appropriate here anyway.

I understand that the Second Amendment includes the phrase "in the interests of a well -regulated militia" or something similar.

The Swiss government has it set up so that every able male has a complete military kit, including guns and ammo actually in his house, ready for acts of war. BUT the rate of gun use in murders, while noticeable, is nowhere close to that in the US. I presume that part of this is the different social expectation in a small country, but part must also be that some of the psychologically unstable don't get to play with guns in the first place.

Why has the US never enforced it's own Constitution on this matter? Seems to me that a full range of training in gun use plus a weeding out of questionable people would make at least some sense. Even the NRA would appear to be onside with this idea.

Please note that I am not advocating the absence of guns, just the proper training/attitude in the posession of same.

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It's Not That Simple

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Afghan
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I think what confuses Brits like me is that - although the majority of Americans favour gun control there is a large, vocal and seemingly quite powerful minority that opposes it. Moreover for that minority the idea of gun ownership - 'the right to bear arms' - seems to be strongly linked with their sense of American identity. Other countries just don't have that - at least not on anything like the scale.

So I suspect that the US does have a gun culture but that not all Americans are part of it.

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doctor-frog

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quote:
Originally posted by chicklegirl:
However, in order to prove that crimes committed with guns are a product of our concealed carry laws, you'd have to provide some compelling statistics that the majority of those crimes were committed with legally obtained guns.

I'm not suggesting that gun crime is a direct product of the concealed carry laws. If anything, it's my understanding that it's had negligible effect on the amount of gun crime.

What I'm suggesting is that adding more guns to the mix is not going to help, and that the obvious solution is to ban guns.

I'd guess that most illegally obtained guns were obtained through channels that, at some leg of the trip, were legal. Cut off those channels, and I suspect that then you'll see a massive drop in gun crime.

As I said before, I think this is a no-brainer.

My point in bringing up the concealed-carry laws is that 11 or 12 years ago when I left the States there were something like 2 dozen fewer states with concealed-carry laws. Now there are 48 -- and anybody you run into on the street might well be carrying a weapon, even in places you wouldn't normally expect one. (Granted, as has been said, region is a factor.) And how has that helped? Has it stopped gun crime in the States from being endemic?

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TubaMirum
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I'd say owning six guns per household is a "gun culture." Surely as an average that's incredibly high - particularly if you're counting city people, who mostly don't hunt.

Only one person I know owns a gun - which she got after she was raped. Most people around here don't, I don't think; I could be wrong, though. Perhaps they do and just don't talk about it. I used to live above a gun shop, but that was out in the sticks. It's the only gun shop I know of anywhere around here.

But actually, I think the problem is not guns per se. The problem behind this is a "violence-and/or-aggression culture," which shows up everywhere.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by doctor-frog:
I'd guess that most illegally obtained guns were obtained through channels that, at some leg of the trip, were legal. Cut off those channels, and I suspect that then you'll see a massive drop in gun crime.

Though, in the UK where there isn't a large stock of legally owned guns, criminals can still obtain guns with some ease (apparently, judging by the number of criminal acts committed with guns and assuming those acts represent a small minority of illegally owned guns in circulation).

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Bullfrog.

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quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Frog:
What I'm suggesting is that adding more guns to the mix is not going to help, and that the obvious solution is to ban guns.

It's "solutions" like that that inspire gun owners to shout things like "over my dead body!"

And without guns, how are you going to enforce such a law?

Sorry, but the obvious ramifications of your law make me feel that the utility of your "solution" is anything but obvious.

Personally (as we discussed in bible study this morning) I'm a lot more concerned with our culture of alienation, powerlessness, and of suppressed violence than I am with our culture of allowing people to own firearms for personal use.

To use two cliches in one post:

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. (though guns make it easier to kill lots of people, I'll admit).

And if you ban guns, only criminals will own them (not to mention cops, but can you really imagine enforcing such a ban across a geographical area the size of the continental US?)

I also know of folks who use guns to literally hunt to put food on the table. Are you saying they should be more ethical if they used bows and arrows instead?

Sorry, but this "gun culture" thing bothers me on several levels.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
Personally (as we discussed in bible study this morning) I'm a lot more concerned with our culture of alienation, powerlessness, and of suppressed violence than I am with our culture of allowing people to own firearms for personal use.

This is the issue, I agree, and this is why people are talking about this now in a way they didn't before.

I think it goes much, much deeper than gun ownership. Our entire culture is screwed up beyond belief - as you say, alienation and violence are two huge problems - and I think we've lost the belief that we can change it. It seems like we only believe we can put band-aids on it, like more gun control.

But I think we can change it, and I think we absolutely have to. Fortunately, I think many people are coming to that conclusion at this point, and also that this is a watershed moment.

We all have to tone down our anger and start to figure out how to do things differently - and work together. That sounds Pollyanna-ish, probably, but it can't be helped; that's what we have to do.

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Rat
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though, in the UK where there isn't a large stock of legally owned guns, criminals can still obtain guns with some ease (apparently, judging by the number of criminal acts committed with guns and assuming those acts represent a small minority of illegally owned guns in circulation).

I believe that that used to be in part because of the smuggling of illegal weapons through the UK to Northern Ireland. Cities that were on the route, so to speak, like Glasgow and Liverpool, experienced a certain level of fallout and had higher levels of gun-crime than others.

I don't think this can be the case any more, though. At least I hope not. Don't a lot of the illegal guns in the UK now come from the ex-USSR states?

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Iole Nui:
Don't a lot of the illegal guns in the UK now come from the ex-USSR states?

About 80% of the ones that the police find are either home-made or very old ex-military weapons.

I once saw a forensic scientist estimate that about a fifth of illegal handguns he'd seen had never been fired even to test them and probably could not safely be fired.

This is handguns - pistols. Shotguns are relatively easy to come by legally in Britain and a great many of them are in private ownership.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
It is not culturally or legally acceptable to own a knife for the purpose of self defence.

I didn't know that: can you describe what kinds of knives are prohibited?

Would one like this one-handed opening folding knife be?

For a frame of reference the cutting edge is 67mm / 2.6 inches.

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Alan Cresswell

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Knives that are illegal in the UK include of switchblades and butterfly knives, and folding knives with blades longer than 3". Along with any knife that is in some way disguised (eg: knives hidden in belt buckles). Anything made, or adapted, to cause harm to another can't legally be carried in public. If you're carrying such a blade (excluding folding knives less than 3" blade, ie: penknives) you have to have a good reason for doing so - eg: it's a woodworking blade and you're a joiner. It's illegal to sell any knife to someone under 18.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Alogon
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Gun-purchasing checks and regulations are too flimsy and easy to get around, and limited rates of purchase by individuals are far too high.

But I reluctantly agree with Bush that the right (of law-abiding citizens) to bear arms is sacrosanct. A few people go bad. All institutions eventually do. After all, we need to protect ourselves against his administration and those of his successors. The more suspicious of American culture and imperial power you are, I trust that the more you will agree with me here. It isn't as if Americans don't realize it, too. These could be the times for which the Founding Fathers fortified us with the second amendment.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Trin
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quote:
what kinds of knives are prohibited?
Damn I knew someone would pick me up on that. I checked it out and the gist goes something like

You cannot posses any kind of flick knife or disguised knife under any circumstances.

You have to have a good reason for carrying a knife around - ie for use as a tool. "Self defense" would not be a reason.

No knife can be sold or marketed as a "combat knife"

"It is an offence to sell or market a knife in such a way that it suggests it is suitable for personal injury."

It would appear that in your home you can keep what you like. So I was wrong to say "own" - rather "carry".

(eta: cross post, oh well.)

[ 18. April 2007, 19:33: Message edited by: Trin ]

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doctor-frog

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quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
It's "solutions" like that that inspire gun owners to shout things like "over my dead body!"

And without guns, how are you going to enforce such a law?

And those shouts are precisely the problem. sabine is right; i have over-generalised about the american populace. but, insofar as any reference to gun control (or even a rational debate on it) is pretty much political suicide for any lawmaker, what 'gun culture' there is in the US reigns supreme. the NRA's word, with only the slightest most timid tweaks, has pretty much won the day. I don't think this is anything close to a good thing.

as for enforcement, I certainly wasn't suggesting the police not be armed. I don't think you could un-arm the american police at this late stage. it only works in the UK, because our police never had them till lately.


quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:

Personally (as we discussed in bible study this morning) I'm a lot more concerned with our culture of alienation, powerlessness, and of suppressed violence than I am with our culture of allowing people to own firearms for personal use.

This point has been made, and I agree wholeheartedly with the first premise. There are a lot of underlying root causes that would need to be tackled; but if the violent can't get their hands on guns, then that eliminates a pivotal symptom of the problem.

and saves lives. real lives. not just the hypothetical cold dead hands of Charlton Heston.

quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:

To use two cliches in one post:

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. (though guns make it easier to kill lots of people, I'll admit).

I also know of folks who use guns to literally hunt to put food on the table. Are you saying they should be more ethical if they used bows and arrows instead?

I think you should re-read my earlier posts more closely.


quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:

And if you ban guns, only criminals will own them

And if you ban heroin, only criminals will own it.

So then you take up that offence as a matter of law in a country that prides itself on the rule of law.

[ 18. April 2007, 19:33: Message edited by: doctor-frog ]

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moron
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Thanks, Alan.

And Trin.

[ 18. April 2007, 19:34: Message edited by: 206 ]

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hedonism_bot
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I thought the point of the second amendment was to allow the arming of militias (for the "security of a free state" as far as I can recall without being sad and looking it up), which suggested that the Founding Fathers* were more interested in fortifying the government against the people than vice versa. And the people who have the guns and take the idea of arming themselves against the federal government seriously don't strike me as the sort who intend to make the US a more liberal and tolerant place, somehow.

* And I'm not sure quite how the wisdom of a gang of slave-owning freemasons in effeminate wigs is relevent to this century anyway.

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Bullfrog.

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You did notice that I pointed out that some people in some parts of the country literally hunt to put food on the table. Guns kill deer as well as people, and many more deer, I'd imagine.

And the NRA would not have power if it wasn't supported by lots and lots of people. Are you telling them all that they're evil?

It's one of those annoying things about democratic societies. You can't just enforce your altruistic desire by fiat. You have to negotiate with people, no matter how irritating they are.

FWIW, I'm a fan of strictly monitoring and controlling access to handguns and semi-automatic weapons, but that's not the same thing as banning guns for every purpose everywhere.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by hedonism_bot:
were more interested in fortifying the government against the people than vice versa.

In context they were probably more interested in arming the citizens against the British, the Indians, and the slaves, not neccessarily in that order.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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dawn treader
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though, in the UK where there isn't a large stock of legally owned guns, criminals can still obtain guns with some ease (apparently, judging by the number of criminal acts committed with guns and assuming those acts represent a small minority of illegally owned guns in circulation).

Not necessarily so, despite what the media would have us think. I've worked within the Criminal Justice system for 14 years and although the area in which I work suffers from a high crime rate, a significant heroin problem and patches of severe social deprivation, there are very, very few guns. Really, hardly any. When dealer A goes to sort out dealer B he takes a couple of baseball bats and a weights bar. Some cities do have real problems with guns, obviously, but it is surprisingly localised. In all this time I've only seen real (non-imitation, non-airgun) guns involved in a half dozen or so cases, usually with dealers from out of area or people with a suggestion of mental health problems.

Looking back to the OP a bit, IMO the US does not necessarily have a "gun culture" in which all participate, but it does have a legal and constitutional "culture" which has permitted an astonishing quantity of guns to be "out there". And the more are out there, the more people fear they need a gun for self-defence, and the more normalised the whole business of owning a lethal weapon designed to kill becomes. Perhaps not a gun "culture", but certainly a place where guns form a factor as they just don't here in the UK.

When I think of the terrifying things my clients have managed to do over the years when rage, alcohol, fear, revenge, drugs, sheer stupidity, delusions, mental illness or desperation have taken them to the edge.... with just big sticks and pointy objects! To think how many of those incidents would have escalted further if a gun had been in anyone's hand frankly fills me with horror.

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We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
T.S.Eliot, Little Gidding.

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Bullfrog.

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The Tribune ran an interesting article that mentioned VA's gun control laws.

Here's the piece. Note the bullet points on VA gun laws.

I would say that the handgun laws in VA are a bit lax, IMO. There should be a licensing process.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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hedonism_bot
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quote:
O.p. by ken
quote:Originally posted by hedonism_bot:
were more interested in fortifying the government against the people than vice versa.

In context they were probably more interested in arming the citizens against the British, the Indians, and the slaves, not neccessarily in that order.

True. There has always seemed to me to be something of a tautlology in assigning to the 2nd amendment the inherant right of armed revolt against the government - to do so you need to simoultaneously beleive that the Constitution is in some way sacrosanct and that it might be necessary to overthrow a government based on it with armed force.

[ 18. April 2007, 19:55: Message edited by: hedonism_bot ]

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doctor-frog

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quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
Are you telling them all that they're evil?

No -- I'm telling them, to use a cliche of my own, "It's the guns, stupid."

As for my personal fiat, I take part in the democratic process in both of my home countries. This, in its small way, is one example. There are others.

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Bullfrog.

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If the government breaks the Constitution, then I'd imagine that all bets are off as far as rule of law is concerned.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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hatless

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Can anyone from America provide any insight or anecdote about how effective guns are as a defence? I can see that they might be a comforting thought: if I hear a window smash at 3am I will be able to get my gun from the top of the wardrobe and hold it as I tremble behind the bedroom door. But are they actually any use?

Are armed people less likely to be killed during burglaries or muggings? A gun is only going to be any use if either you can threaten someone effectively (and what chance does a scared person have of outfacing an armed criminal?), or if you shoot them before they shoot you. That either means firing first, or them firing first and missing you. So I can't see their utility, and I can see how they increase the likelihood of intruders carrying guns and using them when discovered.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Bullfrog.

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I see. I would still say that taking away guns will lead people to resort to knives, baseball bats, and other forms of weaponry.

I don't think you're going to stop everyday violence and stupidity just by banning guns outright, though having tighter regulations on the ownership of handguns might help.

And any system you design is going to involve mistakes. That's just how governments work.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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moron
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quote:
but if the violent can't get their hands on guns, then that eliminates a pivotal symptom of the problem.
Something I've never understood is how gun control advocates practically expect to eliminate guns.

I've read there are scores of millions (200m?) of them extant. How realistic is it to assume you can get enough of them to preclude further violence?

Few criminals are going to hand them over and I imagine a lot of otherwise law abiding citizens would be willing to risk becoming a criminal in order to keep theirs.

Best I can see all you'll do is create a lot of ill will and red tape with the net effect of millions and millions of guns remaining in the hands of citizens, most of them bad guys, which I'm not sure is a desirable result.

What am I missing?

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Waterchaser
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| was told when I lived in North West Pakistan that in order to get a gun licencse you had to prove you had an enemy. That's a real gun culture!

A bit disturbing that when anything good happened people celebrated by firing everything they had into the air (eg Pakistan winning a cricket match, sucessful nuclear test, weddings etc)- I heard a number of tragic stories about the fall out from this at weddings.

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Gwai
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hatless,

Personally, my response to your question is to remember that statistically I'm told that a gun-owner is more likely to shoot a loved one by accident than to shoot a criminal.
However, there is also a lovely story about the use of guns in Cleveland a while ago. A hoodlum gets on the bus and walks past the farebox (and the driver) without paying. Driver says "Fare's a dollar fifty (or whatever it was at the time, my source didn't know.)

The hood pulls out a large knife. "This is my fare."

Driver pulls out a gun. "Fare's a dollar fifty."

I'm told the rider paid the fare.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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ToujoursDan

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From what I am hearing on the news there seems to be miscommunication. He was locked up in a mental facility for a period of time but then released into the community and allowed to enrol in the university. When students and professors complained, no red flags went up.

His application for handguns in Roanoke was incomplete. He left the question about mental illness blank and his psychiatric hospitalization didn't show up on the background check.

--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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doctor-frog

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quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
I see. I would still say that taking away guns will lead people to resort to knives, baseball bats, and other forms of weaponry.

I don't think you're going to stop everyday violence and stupidity just by banning guns outright, though having tighter regulations on the ownership of handguns might help.

And any system you design is going to involve mistakes. That's just how governments work.

of course. doesn't mean you should compound them, though.

the difference between a baseball bat and a gun is that a gun is designed to hurl a shard of metal at 500 mph through flesh, human or otherwise. that's its whole purpose. killing something.

a baseball bat is designed to hit a baseball.

I'm guessing that guy at VT wouldn't have killed 31 people with a baseball bat before someone got to him. probably 0. and maybe only 1 or 2 with a knife.

of *course* it should go without saying that he never should have been allowed to fall through the net, and that society's problems are deeper than the weapons that they use.

But that doesn't mean they should be handed their weapon of choice at the dollar-store. Again, "it's the guns, stupid."

Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
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# 11076

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I don't know if he couldn't have done as well without a gun. After all, Cho did have time to kill people in his dorm and then saunter over (while the police presumed it a domestic issue) and go from classroom to classroom killing people. He killed himself, so it's not as if the police are the ones who stopped him either. Certainly I don't know what the hell I could do besides die when attacked by a man with baseball bat and knives.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged



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