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Thread: Purgatory: Sex Secrets of lost Atlantis!
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
That got you reading.
Seriously now, a lot of bizarre things got invented among esoteric circles in the nineteenth century - and a lot of it is still believed now (witness that guy who appeared a couple months ago and claimed that Jesus was being remote controlled by this other guy in the Himalayas).
Much of this was to do with Atlantis. Here's a collection of Victorian esoteric writings about Atlantis (and Lord Lytton's book The Coming Race for you to compare).
Take some time to read this stuff. A lot of it is amazing reading, it really is.
What I want to know is, does anyone still believe in Books of Dzyan, apelike Lemurians, ten-foot tall black Rmoahals, and Atlantean psychically powered airships?
There are still Theosophical and Anthroposophical movements out there.
I know this stuff has mostly been categorically disproven, but that doesn't stop people believing stuff normally...
[ 08. January 2006, 22:00: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Sorry, it was 1988, and the Poe story was "The Narrative of A. Gordon Pym." More information can be found here. (Scroll down to "The Dzyan Inheritance.")Interestingly, while I am not a Theosophist, I don't think some of their stuff is easily disprovable on scientific grounds -- some doesn't intrinsically conflict with Christian theology and can't really be disproven scientifically (the presence of an "astral plane," for example), some could be rejected on Christian doctrinal grounds (reincarnation). But the little I know of theosophy mainly concerns the afterlife and the like. My own mother got into theosophy when she was younger, but due to the stroke she suffered shortly after I was born, her take on all of it is a bit disjointed. She more or less believes in reincarnation, I think, but doesn't have the same level of detail in her beliefs that actual theosophy teaches. (I should mention here that my own beliefs regarding paranormal stuff, such as they are, are in spite of, not because of, hers. Just as a personal side note...)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Interestingly, while I am not a Theosophist, I don't think some of their stuff is easily disprovable on scientific grounds -- some doesn't intrinsically conflict with Christian theology and can't really be disproven scientifically (the presence of an "astral plane," for example), some could be rejected on Christian doctrinal grounds (reincarnation). But the little I know of theosophy mainly concerns the afterlife and the like.
True, and I wouldn't even attempt to disprove the 'not so wacky' stuff. But what about the fun stuff? Atlantis? Lemuria? The Final Evolution of Man? The floaty Psychically Powered Airships? The chemical weapons? It's interesting that Helena Blavatsky's book The Secret Doctrine is actually still included in the official Theosophical Society website (hint: skip the dull stuff and read the 'evolution of man' chapters in Book II). And what about the Anthroposophists? Originally a German splinter group of Theosophy, they're now actually bigger than the Theosophists. There are a fair number of Anthroposophical schools in Europe, for example, although in the US they're less respectable. Here's a site which considers Anthoposophists to be a dangerous cult, for example. More links: The American Anthroposophical Society
The British Anthroposophical Society (which has a much better site design, by the way) I'd also recommend to you Peter Washington's book Madame Blavatsky's Baboon. Written with no agenda (the writer seems genuinely uncertain as to whether he's on the side of the Theosophists or not. You decide), it's accessible, well-written and fascinating. [ 02 April 2002: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Hmm. Actually, it's interesting that quite early on, the 'root races' theories got co-opted into the racist theories of the early 20th century. So that, the later Atlantean races still remained as the 'prehuman' Slavs and Chinese, while the Lemurians were left over in Astralia. Just so you appreciate how far we've come, I have a mainstream 15-or-so-volume encyclopaedia published by Chambers in 1928. In its entry on race, it actually divides humans into three species, 'black', 'aryan' and 'oriental', and differentiates between the three. Guess which one they say is the best? We really have come so far. And yet we have so far to go. [ 23 May 2002: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Timothy L
Shipmate
# 2170
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Posted
Here's chapter 9 from "Dweller on Two Planets." You have to scroll down a ways to get to it.Here are a few pages. I guess They want you to buy the book. You can get it from AmazonDotCom. Still not sure who They are...the Clintonites...the Kennedy's...the Kennedy Killers...CIA...FBI...MI5...Aliens a)camping out at Roswell b)hovering above us c)the ones we met on the moon that said "don't come back! Whoever They are, we'd better watch out. Looks like They mean business. Does AmazonDotCom mean alligators? Do alligators mean Simon's Pet Alligator? Sinister forces...
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Timothy
Posts: 757 | From: Kalamazoo | Registered: Jan 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Sometimes, a typo is too good to change 
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
At the risk of revealing a lack of diplomacy on my part  , I think it best that Alcuin should be left to say exactly what he/she would label him/herself as, rather than for us to make pronouncements.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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rudolf
Shipmate
# 2995
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Posted
This thread is faintly ridiculous - but, I can't let it go by ! You appear to be complaining about some 'theosophical' writings from the 19th Century. There are probems with this:-
1. No-one else would consider them theosophical - theosophy does not have a fiction section
2. You omit to laugh at any of the Christian fiction written in those days - do you remember reading "Little Women" or "Black Beauty" ? Your stomach would turn at most of it.
3. Anyway, do you have any sense of what Christianity was like in the 19th Century - hell-fire and damnation, with a strong focus on sin. Goodness knows how and why this arose in that way in that Century, but the whole lot of it is now thought of as primitive and unhealthy, whether Christian or Theosophical. It is unwise to mock some theosophical peripheral stuff when the Christain equivalent current at that time was even worse.
4. Is there any legacy that is at all usable from 19th century Christianity except the buildings and the hymns ?
5. What stories do you tell to your children now ? What tales do you tell to introduce people to the church ? Are you pleased with them all ?
You mockery of these stupid books is mildly unfair !!
So now to Part II of my note, What really is Theosophy ??
You seem to have 'neatly' demonised and dismissed it, but is that enough ? In my view, theosophy tries to deal with a number of issues that Christianity (for some good and some poor reasons) always avoids:-
1. What is the human constitution ? this odd hybrid of body, feelings, mind, soul, spirit and so on. How does it work, how can we improve the way it works in service .....
2. What are the real mechanisms of the world ? for a religion which has miracles at or near the core of its sacred text, a claimed miracle in the mass in every church every week, with saints in heaven, and with thrones, dominions, and all that stuff too, then surely this is a valid question, - How do these work ? This leads hopefully to further thought on how we can best co-operate with this inner mechanism.
3. What really do you mean by soul or spirit ? what are the variations and levels, similarities and differences of the experiences reported using the same words in different ways. What indeed are prayer and meditation ?
4. How do things develop and evolve in the world anyway ?
5. Are there signs of correspondences between the different religions and an essential unity ? many theosophical writers have attempted to document these as best they can.
In a sense, these questions are not a good direction - prayer/meditation and works seem more fruitful, but the best approach may include being aware of these questions and trying to gather personal evidence as you go along. However, criticising and demonising this type of approach seems at best a waste of energy, and .... at worst ........ odd.
Theosophy as a set of teachings may be incomprehensible in its old forms and trivial in its 'new age' variants, but at least it has a useful set of question, and it sometimes makes an honest attempt to ask these questions and to search (within) for answers. There is something more in theosophy (with all its faults and weaknesses) than you think there is with your easy rejection.
Inevitably, this is a personal journey - the theosophical mystics - Steiner, Blavatsky and so on chose not to couch it in Christian terms, whereas the Christian mystics chose each chose their own way of expression. Which is most useful ? Which is most true ? Who is in a position to judge anyway ??
Best Wishes to you All
Posts: 83 | From: surrey | Registered: Jul 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Ok. First, as the host here, welcome to the board, Rudolf, although I suspect you won't come back.
First, yes, I find these books - some of which are by Steiner and Blavatsky and which can be found on the websites of official Theosophical groups (like the official Rudolf Steiner Library, f'rexample) intensely entertaining.
Rudolf, you get me wrong. I was asking the question "do people still believe this stuff?".
Regarding fiction: I think if you'll take some time to read some of the other threads here, you'll find that this board is pretty much about Christian fictions, and is here to mock and debunk it.
quote:
It is unwise to mock some theosophical peripheral stuff when the Christian equivalent current at that time was even worse.
Whyever not? The Christian peripheral stuff now is worse still (Left Behind, anyone? Kenneth Copeland? I rest my case).
Anyway, if I am not mistaken, some of this stuff is in The Secret Doctrine, which, although doubtless superceded now, was at one point without a doubt the primary text of the Theosophical movement.
I wouldn't call that 'peripheral'. Even if it's peripheral now, the other Theosophical literature of the time suggests that it wasn't then.
(By the way, you can't really tell me that Little Women is of less literary merit than W Scott Elliot, can you? You can't really be saying that...}
quote:
Is there any legacy that is at all usable from 19th century Christianity except the buildings and the hymns ?
Yes. People still read books by (for example) Charles Haddon Spurgeon, and there are still movements begun then which are still going to day - like the Salvation Army.
And anyone here who calls themselves an Anglo-Catholic (and there are a hell of a lot of them. Go see the Mystery Worship board) is part of a movement which dates to the Victorian era.
quote:
You seem to have 'neatly' demonised and dismissed it, but is that enough ?
Look, no one demonised Theosophy as a movement here.
We simply wanted to ask whether anyone still believed the stuff about nine-foot tall blue aboriginals, Lhas, airships and stuff.
There is sufficient evidence out there to suggest that people did take it deadly seriously; the fact that this stuff was still available from primary Theosophical and Anthroposophical sources (although, in all fairness, in some places sidelined behind other stuff) was interesting.
In the lack of any actual theosophists here, we have had to work on the evidence we have.
This thread is not a hatchet job on Theosophy, simply an enquiry into whether some entertaining and truly weird texts are still taken seriously by the groups which originally produced them.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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rudolf
Shipmate
# 2995
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Posted
No, I'm still here. I don't know how to do the correct copy routine from your message into mine, so I'll copy bits over myself. You write:-
"Look, no one demonised Theosophy as a movement here.
We simply wanted to ask whether anyone still believed the stuff about nine-foot tall blue aboriginals, Lhas, airships and stuff."
This may not be the centre of what you are saying, but, in my opinion there are major errors here in this quote:-
1. It actually IS demonising and trivialising theosophy to suggest that it is anything to do with "nine-foot tall blue aboriginals, Lhas, airships and stuff"
2. I attempted to also write something about what theosophy really is about in my opinion, but you have ignored this.
(I myself have found theosophy valuable, but I cannot speak for it, in the same way that no Christian can speak 'for the church', with the debatable exception of the Pope)
3. Theosophy anyway, at best, is the antithesis of belief. Belief as a general philosical standpoint is unwise, in my opinion - in its nature it is a bit of a gamble, and if you are believe 'wrongly', you could have a problem. To take an example. The Virgin Birth. This seems to be a problem area for most Christians. From my vaguely 'liberal catholic theosophical' position, there is no problem, I can accept it as clearly possible if one accept the theosophical approach that:-
a. there are hidden powers latent in man
b. there are more highly developed people who have more of these powers and abilities, and perhaps even 'graduate humans'
From my own experience, both of these statements are clearly true, because I have met people 'with talents', seen and experienced these things. I have not seen anyone with the apparent ability to create a Virgin Birth, or anything remotely that good, but to me, it is clearly a (remote) practical possibility, and does not need to come under the vagaries of belief.
Obviously, there also 'theosophists' who are riddled with beliefs in all sorts of odd stuff, but I am making an effort to stop this for myself and transfer it all into hypothesis/evidence systems, which in my view is much more comfortable.
You then add:-
"There is sufficient evidence out there to suggest that people did take it deadly seriously; the fact that this stuff was still available from primary Theosophical and Anthroposophical sources (although, in all fairness, in some places sidelined behind other stuff) was interesting."
I'm sorry, again I disagree entirely. There are only two primary theosophical sources - the 'Secret Doctrine' and 'Isis Unveiled', and all of the secondary sources for Theosophy are published by the Theosophical Publishing House, and similarly, all of Steiner's work was published by the Anthroposophical Press. THey contain nothing at all like what you are writing. Anything published by anyone else is neither primary or secondary - it could at best be tertiary, but is nothing to do with mainstream theosophy. Your statement above seems deliberately misleading, or are you quoting an 'expert opinion' as YOUR primary source ??
While I cannot expect you to have first-hand knowledge of theosophy if you have never been interested in it, it does become an issue if you then want then to refer to it in the way you are doing, for whatever reason. What sources ARE you basing your opinions on ??
This is fun ! Best Wishes !!
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How silently, how silently,
Posts: 83 | From: surrey | Registered: Jul 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
You're right. This is fun.
quote:
Posted by Rudolf: While I cannot expect you to have first-hand knowledge of theosophy if you have never been interested in it, it does become an issue if you then want then to refer to it in the way you are doing, for whatever reason. What sources ARE you basing your opinions on ??
OK. Before I settled on Christianity, I tried lots of stuff. I find Theosophy intensely interesting, although these days only in an academic kind of way.
I have actually read The Secret Doctrine, and Steiner's Cosmic Memory (which is of course Anthroposophical, and not Theosophical - but then, I'm not wholly concerned with Theosophy. Other movements are included too).
My source for the Theosophical Movement's History is (apart from innumerable copies of the oh-so-reliable Prediction Magazine ) Peter Washington's excellent and not unsympathetic book Madam Blavatsky's Baboon, which in all fairness skates over the Atlantis/Lemuria/Root Races stuff very early on, and shows how mainstream Theosophy has departed from it in the last 130 years or so. Washington's sources include the memoirs and letters of Olcott, Blavatsky, Besant, Steiner, Gurdjieff, Krishnamurti and their friends and families.
Anyway, just so I can show I'm not talking from my anal sphincter: quote:
from the Secret Doctrine, Bk. 2 (a long extract. But, hey, it's out of copyright): In the initial period of man's Fourth evolution, the human kingdom branched off in several and various directions. The outward shape of its first specimens was not uniform, for the vehicles (the egg-like, external shells, in which the future fully physical man gestated) were often tampered with, before they hardened, by huge animals, of species now unknown, and which belonged to the tentative efforts of Nature. The result was that intermediate races of monsters, half animals, half men, were produced. But as they were failures, they were not allowed to breathe long and live, though the intrinsically paramount power of psychic over physical nature being yet very weak, and hardly established, the 'Egg-Born' Sons had taken several of their females unto themselves as mates, and bred other human monsters. Later, animal species and human races becoming gradually equilibrised, they separated and mated no longer.
Man created no more - he begot. But he also begot animals, as well as men in days of old. Therefore the Sages (or wise men), who speak of males who had no more will-begotten offspring, but begat various animals along with Danavas (giants) on females of other species -- animals being as (or in a manner of) Sons putative to them; and they (the human males) refusing in time to be regarded as (putative) fathers of dumb creatures -- spoke truthfully and wisely. Upon seeing this (state of things), the kings and Lords of the Last Races (of the Third and the Fourth) placed the seal of prohibition upon the sinful intercourse. It interfered with Karma, it developed new (Karma). They (the divine Kings) struck the culprits with sterility. They destroyed the Red and Blue Races.
quote:
back to Rudolf: Obviously, there also 'theosophists' who are riddled with beliefs in all sorts of odd stuff, but I am making an effort to stop this for myself and transfer it all into hypothesis/evidence systems, which in my view is much more comfortable.
But then, if you went to Genesis, you'd find stuff about Giants and stuff. BUT there are people who still believe in the seven-day creation, in the giants, in the Flood. There are many Christians here who believe in the True Presence.
I don't agree, but I can't deny their Christianity. Are you really denying that Theosophists who may not agree with you are Theosophists at all?
As I said, my initial investigation was whether any people at all still took seriously the stuff in (for example) the second part of the Secret Doctrine and in Cosmic Memory.
I do know that the mainstream Theosophical movement doesn't bother with it any more. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. But since the Theosophical movement was, in its early decades, more than a little fissive, I wondered if the Anthroposophists believed it, or if there were still groups of Theosophists who believed it.
I the fact I was somewhat flippant (well, all right, I was having a good old larf) about it offended, I apologise.
quote:
Rudolf: I attempted to also write something about what theosophy really is about in my opinion, but you have ignored this.
As for your comments about what Theosophy really is: I have no reason to argue with you. You basically expressed the Theosophical self-identifying statements as I understood them anyway (not a swipe - a compliment), and as such simply to say "as a Christian, I don't agree with them" was a little redundant. They were able to stand on their own.
quote:
Rudolf also said: Belief as a general philosical standpoint is unwise, in my opinion - in its nature it is a bit of a gamble, and if you believe 'wrongly', you could have a problem.
Um. This statement actually problematises itself, since it does actually represent a belief. Empiricism is as much of a metanarrative (and as essentially problematic) as any religious belief.
[note to self: USE PREVIEW POST. Gah. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ]
[ 07 July 2002, 09:22: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rudolf:
No, I'm still here.
Apologies. I mistook you for a hit-and-run "I'll just object and clear off" poster. Which you're not.
[ 06 July 2002, 15:58: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Don't know Thing One about Theosophy, but I will say that I re-read Little Women a few years ago, and I enjoyed it all over again. I've always been a sucker for the 19th-century brand of self-improvement. Despite the fact that Alcott yields up no sex secrets Atlantean or otherwise in that book (though her lurid newspaper fiction is another thing altogether).
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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likeness
Shipmate
# 2773
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Posted
Wood and rudolf (not necessarily in that order), a minor observation compared with your lengthy debate.
quote:
Originally posted by rudolf:
4. Is there any legacy that is at all usable from 19th century Christianity except the buildings and the hymns ?
George MacDonald.
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The eye is the lamp of the body.
Posts: 464 | From: No. 43 | Registered: May 2002
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rudolf
Shipmate
# 2995
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Posted
Dear Wood and All
Thankyou for your responses to my posts. Honours seem more or less even now (??!!) - you still haven't really got the hang of this Theosophy game, but I'll give you another chance (after all, you've been reading the wrong sources!). There are still questions and matters arising from your post that I'd like to deal with, because you sort of seem to want me to ......
So, I'll try to do this in several parts, as the preview routine keeps eating what I write. I know I'm running a risk of overstaying my welcome, but, some of it may be fun.
First, working from general to particular, you commented.
quote:
Posted by Wood: quote:
Rudolf also said: Belief as a general philosical standpoint is unwise, in my opinion - in its nature it is a bit of a gamble, and if you believe 'wrongly', you could have a problem.
Um. This statement actually problematises itself, since it does actually represent a belief. Empiricism is as much of a metanarrative (and as essentially problematic) as any religious belief.
To me, what I wrote only represents a belief in a belief-oriented system. I think it represents simultaneously two things on different levels:-
1. A strategy on a philosophical/psychological level
2. A statement modelled on Situation - Evaluation - Basis for evaluation, as propounded by some text analysis-type academics. It just so happens that I am interested in this and there is a brief summary and citations on my website under Text Analysis
I thought I was evaluating a typical situation that believers get into
3. OK, it might be a meta-narrative, but everything has those anyway, and inevitably you end up at a level of generalisation where there is no impact in 'the real world'
No doubt you will disagree. You might also be critical of the rest of my site, Whatever Will Be, however that might help me to improve it ! But, it may spark off some new ideas for you too (I apologise for this brazen advertising, but, I'll try to only link to my site once in a post in future)
With Best Wishes
[fixed code]
[ 08 July 2002, 16:35: Message edited by: Wood ]
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How silently, how silently,
Posts: 83 | From: surrey | Registered: Jul 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
OK.
Tell you what. This board is about myths, mainly religious ones, and this thread is about certain myths created by the originators of Theosophy and its offshoots and siblings in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
Theosophy as a movement has, over the last century or so evolved into a movement completely different to that which it was under Blavatsky and Olcott, primarily under the influence of Krishnamurti (who later left the movement altogether to start his own 'counter-movement' movement) and Mrs Besant.
Anyway, I should stress that this is not just a thread about theosophical literature (because, as I keep on saying, I'm using sources like - for example - Steiner's Cosmic Memory, which is of course ANTHROPOSOPHICAL).
Consequently, I don't consider Theosophy itself to be really what this thread is about - hence my reluctance to comment on your thoughts about Theosophical philosophies.
Rudolf, your thoughts - and one or two things on your website - are very interesting, and as such deserve a wider forum than the relatively narrow (and flippant) scope of this board.
I urge you to take this discussion to the Purgatory board, which is our forum for serious discussion.
Now you clearly have no truck with the bizarre myths produced by Theosophists of yore, and I would not try and paint you with that brush.
I'll repeat myself, anyway: this thread was started as an inquiry as to whether anyone still believed this stuff, and not as a statement that people actually did. I hope you are able to see the distinction there.
[just one slash can cause so much mayhem. *sigh*]
[ 08 July 2002, 16:47: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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rudolf
Shipmate
# 2995
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Posted
Part Two - (a bit more in the spirit of your board)
You seem to be really interested in stuff like
quote:
Man created no more - he begot. But he also begot animals, as well as men in days of old. Therefore the Sages (or wise men), who speak of males who had no more will-begotten offspring, but begat various animals along with Danavas (giants) on females of other species -- animals being as (or in a manner of) Sons putative to them; and they (the human males) refusing in time to be regarded as (putative) fathers of dumb creatures -- spoke truthfully and wisely. Upon seeing this (state of things), the kings and Lords of the Last Races (of the Third and the Fourth) placed the seal of prohibition upon the sinful intercourse. It interfered with Karma, it developed new (Karma). They (the divine Kings) struck the culprits with sterility. They destroyed the Red and Blue Races.
This seems very odd to me, but this sort of stuff seems to turn up in all the oldest books - Bible, Mahabharata, Secret Doctrine, and so on. Usually, no-one ever takes any notice of it, and I don't think anyone in any of the relevant traditions actually studies it.
But, what does happen is that it turns up in science fiction, horror, fantasy and new age channelings all the time. Which gives me an idea for my next project but three - there seems to be easy money to be made adapting this to any of the above markets.
So, with great enlightened self-interest, I want to suggest a new thread for you:-
The strangest stories of human creation and/or pre-history, with present and future consequences (and ideally chapter and verse of the relevant book - these may also be true or false)
My own contribution to begin is:-
The vampire lizards from Andromeda first came to earth 4 million years ago and used genetic engineering to develop some proto-humans as sexual playthings. However, some escaped and evolved a bit, until the cat people of beta Centauri came along and developed the race more for meat production. Once again some excaped, but the Sirians came along and implanted consciousness, after which evolution was quite rapid.
However, the Centaurians are coming back soon for the harvest, but they are waiting for enough people to have ingested enough mono-sodium glutamate (to improve the taste), and then they will all be taken, but those who didn't eat any MSG will be left behind, so be warned !! (this is extremely loosely based on reports on the various UFO races, but I didn't keep a link, and I made lots of it up too)
Have Fun !!
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How silently, how silently,
Posts: 83 | From: surrey | Registered: Jul 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Now, you see, that's the spirit.
However, your statement that 'no one in the relevant traditions seriously studies these things' is, in fact inaccurate.
Take, for example, these people.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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rudolf
Shipmate
# 2995
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Posted
errm, ....... yes
In fact, I could get to one of their events in Holland at the weekend quite easily, but, "I'm too busy with prior appointments", and anyway, we might argue with each other. In fact, I might be a disruptive influence on them. Hmmm, it's sort of tempting though.
Could they be taking literally something that 'nearly everyone else' has taken to be metaphorical. Do they think the story ......God, Adam, Eve, Serpent ....... was real and what actually happened ? perhaps they do.
What percentage do you think believe literally in Adam and Eve ?
Do you think they do this sort of thing as a test of their faith ?
Or do they just do it to annoy other people ??
I must say that I think the % of theosophists who bother about the 3rd and 4th races (as in your previous quote) would be extremely small, and (I hope) approaching zero.
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How silently, how silently,
Posts: 83 | From: surrey | Registered: Jul 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rudolf:
Could they be taking literally something that 'nearly everyone else' has taken to be metaphorical. Do they think the story ......God, Adam, Eve, Serpent ....... was real and what actually happened ? perhaps they do.
What percentage do you think believe literally in Adam and Eve ?
Out of the Answers in Genesis crowd? All of them. It's part of their whole raison d'etre. They openly believe and fight to prove it 'scientifically'. There are a hell of a lot of 'em, and there's more every year.
They're still a minority, though.
quote:
Do you think they do this sort of thing as a test of their faith ?
Or do they just do it to annoy other people ??
No. If only it were that simple.
At some point around the turn of the last century, there arose a movement - mainly among Protestants in the English-speaking countries, which mainly opposed Darwin. They decided that the Bible was the only history textbook they needed.
Because they believed the Bible (usually the KJV) to be literally true, they had to find ways of proving it. And they're quite ingenious.
No test, no pose. They simply believe it's literally, objectively true. Go and check out some of the threads about evolution and creationism on the Dead Horses board if you don't believe me.
quote:
I must say that I think the % of theosophists who bother about the 3rd and 4th races (as in your previous quote) would be extremely small, and (I hope) approaching zero.
I do hope that's the case, too.
Although I do enjoy a good Theosophical creation myth.
Anyway, you should never underestimate the limits of human belief, even in so-called 'civilised' countries (I understand that even here in Britain, there are people who apparently believe that Margaret Thatcher was a good prime minister! Mad or what? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) )
It's interesting that Blavatsky actually came up with her theories in direct opposition to Darwin. Apparently, she owned a stuffed baboon, which she had gotten up in specs and a suit with a copy of The Origin of the Species under its arm. It was her little dig at Darwin, apparently...
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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rudolf
Shipmate
# 2995
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Posted
Well yes.
Myself, I think it is unlikely that Darwin provides the whole truth on the basis of some 'sum total of random mutations' - on the evolutionist side, they need to account for the existence of consciousness, which does not seem likely to arise spontaneously from matter (or even cells, though they may have a rudimentary something). Then, there is also 'spirit' which they usually deal with by denying its existence, on the basis that it is not measurable.
On the other side the creationists apparently deny the existence of the fossil record. I would personally like to show some of them a really good example - the Senkenberg Museum in Frankfurt is outstanding for that. But, I imagine that they say the fossils are the works of the devil put there to mislead us, whiich is not an argument which is easy to counter
I always thought that Christianity was meant to be a New Dispensation based on the two commandments of love as the central points of both philosophy, worship and practice, and sweeping away all the Mosaic 'old dispensation' stuff like this. However, if they set up their own churches, it is difficult to throw them out of yours.
The evolutionists and creationists seem well matched. But they dominate the debate with false issues (which are clearly inferior to my own true issues) and it is difficult to find a middle ground. I'm also not sure if it is so important to know anyway - we are as we are and the earth is as it is, and that's that.
Anyway, to return to myths. My favourite myth, which I am SURE (but not certain) is in the "Secret Doctrine" is as follows:-
I think it is stated categorically that, if you crossbred congenital (human) idiots for several generations, you would begin to get people more like the great apes that humans. If you selectively breed the great apes, even if you do it 'for intelligence', and even if you do it for a million years, you would never get a man. (It would clearly not be politically correct to do the first of these, however, and we will probably never know the truth)
Added to this, something from Steiner (I sort of remember), is that he was very interested in 'archetypes' - developed from the gnostic basis that 'man is the measure of all things'. One of my attempted interpretations and elaborations of this (trying to square some of the above circles), is to imagine the human archetype having (say) 100 facets (and by this I mean abilities and qualities, and these are absolutely NOT related to DNA or any other genetic factors, and they are there 'in potential' fro us to grow into) then the nearest great ape archetype contains maybe 70 of these facets, the horse may contain 30 of them, a typical insect 2 or 3, likewise a plant, and so on. The point of this attempt is to try to imagine how the human archetype could have been manifested first in its entirety (thus fitting with the sacred books !), and the remainder of life on earth developed from different aspects of that archetype, in some very strange fluid and fertile conditions. The archetypes would then eventually differentiate into different individuals. However, the books are confusing, because all this type of thing (like the stuff in your quotes) appears to have taken place on other levels than the solid physical, and therefore to have left no record, though maybe this was going on parallel to the 'fossil stuff' but on another level, and not yet connected together.
The ancient past is certainly like a blank canvas where you can project whatever you want onto it !
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How silently, how silently,
Posts: 83 | From: surrey | Registered: Jul 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
At the request of the Milkman, this thread has been moved to Purgatory for further discussion and enjoyment, as he's got more to report, it seems!
*bump*
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I was once upon a time beguiled by the Tibetan sage T. Lobsang Rampa and it was years later I discovered he was a plumber called Cyril Henry Hoskins.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rudolf
Shipmate
# 2995
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Posted
Ready and waiting Milkman !!! fire away (or is it spurt away ?).
By the way, I am now in darkest Surrey, not light-filled Brussels !! I will try to change my details eventually.
In the days when people liked T Lobsang Rampa, they liked Cowboys and Indians books too. And, what should he have been, a librarian ?
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How silently, how silently,
Posts: 83 | From: surrey | Registered: Jul 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Hey Rudolf! Good to see you're still around!
OK.
Recently I was asked to do another talk for this Egyptological society, not that I'm an Egyptologist or anything, but because some of my interests (namely desert fathers and alternative archaeology) sort of impinge on the whole ancient Egypt thing.
I decided to do a talk entitled (surprise) Sex Secrets of Lost Atlantis! which was, I thought, going to be a light-hearted talk on the mystical pseudoarchaeological theories of yore (if you're in Swansea, it's Weds 7th April, 7pm, Esso Lecture Theatre, Opposite Taliesin, University, Singleton Park. Not that I'm plugging it or anything), using, among other things, some old issues of Prediction and some of the fabulous texts I'd linked here, in a kind of, "gosh, weren't those Victorians silly?" kind of way.
Only I found that people do still believe in the works of Steiner and Blavatsky. Literally.
(Rudolf'll be glad to know that none of these people appear to be Theosophists, modern Theosophists being a little more sensible, as far as I can tell)
They really do. The current proponent of these ideas is a neo-pagan writer named Murry Hope. Ms. Hope has been writing books on Egyptian, Siriun (sic) and Atlantean mysticism for over twenty years (in fact, I first came across her while searching the net for the names of some of the more prolific writers in the late 70s and early 80s issues of Prediction I inherited from my Dad). In her book The Ancient Wisdom of Atlantis, She refers to Steiner as a "reliable mystic", and references the creation myths of Blavatsky, Steiner, Scott-Elliot and Donelly as if they really happened, and further claims to have been incarnated in Atlantis long ago. Woooo, I thought. This book as last published by Harper Collins and went to a third edition. I was later told by a friend that she knows some pagans who know of Hope's stuff and believe every word.
Even more scary is the racial angle. the original Atlanteans are widely regarded by many of the post-Donelly Atlantologists (but not by Hope, as far as I can tell) as blond, blue-eyed white guys, who, when Atlantis sank, gave their civilisation to the rest of the world and, by interbreeding with lesser human species, raised the qualiy of the genetic pool.
Further - gobsmackingly - this was actually taught as fact in academic institutions in Nazi Germany (along with the Hollow Earth theory). Himmler's ThuleGessellschaft was set up to propagate this myth.
This just gets weirder and weirder.
There's more, but time is defeating me. I just wanted to share some of my wanderings [Rod Serling Voice]in the Outer Limits of Human Belief[/Rod Serling Voice]. Anybody else heard this stuff outside of bad conspiracy novels?
#doodoo doodoo
#doodoo doodoo...
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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maleveque
Shipmate
# 132
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Posted
I know that Rudolf Steiner was the originator of Waldorf schools. I'm no expert, but I know they do stuff that seems kind of peculiar to most people. The classrooms must be painted with a particular kind of paint in particular colors in a prescribed order (i.e. room 1 is blue, room 2 green, etc.). When a friend was sending her child to a Waldorf school, I read the handbook that came home with him with all the rules - and there are many of them! They could not wear velcro. None of their clothing, including underwear, or lunchboxes could have any cartoon characters or commercial logos on them. There was much more.
Another friend lived next door to this same Waldorf school and had an awful time keeping the precious little darlings from terrorizing her cats (fenced in - not out and about) and tearing up her garden.
I also had a high school math teacher who was a Steiner devotee and was Waldorf-trained. He was an absolute genius as a math teacher! Any math I know, I owe to him. He had some really peculiar ideas about Atlantis and the origins of humans, though. He said that the air used to be thick and people could 'swim' through the air. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
I've always been highly suspicious of Waldorf schools since then.
Anne L.
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Life isn't all fricasseed frogs and eel pie.
Posts: 1496 | From: Washington, DC or thereabouts | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yes, people do still believe in Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria, etc., and special knowledge/technologies from those places. Not sure about things like apish Lemurians, though.
Re Steiner and anthrop.: here in the US, there are Waldorf schools for kids. They're rooted in that philosophy, but I'm not sure how much of it they actually teach. They focus a lot on art and music as ways of learning.
Re Nazis and Aryans: Actually, Aryans are *not* the blonde, blue-eyed Germans. Don't know how the Nazis ever pushed that. Aryans are the *other* German race--the short, dark-haired folks. And the Brahmin caste of India is Brahmin.
Milkman, I love playing with alternative history and archaeology, too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I was into the Lobsang Rampa books for a long time, too--'til I read that they were actually written by some guy in Canada, who I presume is the plumber that was mentioned. Of ocurse, if he was telling the truth in his books, that still could be Lobsang Rampa--he supposedly could move into a new body (with permission of the occupant) and the previous occupant would be reincarnated.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Cusanus
Ship's Schoolmaster
# 692
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Posted
quote:
Posted by maleveque:
I've always been highly suspicious of Waldorf schools since then.
Yeah, and the salad is a bit weird too.
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"You are qualified," sa fotherington-tomas, "becos you can frankly never pass an exam and have 0 branes. Obviously you will be a skoolmaster - there is no other choice."
Posts: 3120 | From: The Peninsula | Registered: Jul 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
Re Nazis and Aryans: Actually, Aryans are *not* the blonde, blue-eyed Germans. Don't know how the Nazis ever pushed that. Aryans are the *other* German race--the short, dark-haired folks. And the Brahmin caste of India is Brahmin.
You see, that's why it's all crap. The Nazis (and the Victorian Atlantologists) all assumed that the original Aryans were blonde, blue-eyed types from Atlantis, and not, as we know to be the case, the guys who, among other things, wrote the Mahabharata. So they were wrong.
More and more I see the need to disprove these "theories", because even the best-intentioned of them can be used as justifications for awful, racist lies.
(Remember when Alcuin told us that Hitler was several levels more ascended than any Christian he'd ever met? Here, ladies and gentlemen, is the source.)
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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LucyH
Shipmate
# 3570
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Posted
Martin PC noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo[ slumps as another illusion shattered] ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2002
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rudolf
Shipmate
# 2995
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Posted
The Milkman of Human Kindness wrote:-
quote:
I decided to do a talk entitled (surprise) Sex Secrets of Lost Atlantis! which was, I thought, going to be a light-hearted talk on the mystical pseudoarchaeological theories of yore (if you're in Swansea, it's Weds 7th April, 7pm, Esso Lecture Theatre, Opposite Taliesin, University, Singleton Park. Not that I'm plugging it or anything), using, among other things, some old issues of Prediction and some of the fabulous texts I'd linked here, in a kind of, "gosh, weren't those Victorians silly?" kind of way.
Hi ! Is a webcam live broadcast possible ???
I used to live in Cardiff, by the way, but I'm better now !
I assume you will start of by saying, sorry, it's a secret (but I'll whisper it to you afterwards for a small fee) and then go on to talk about the desert fathers. But then, those hermits in caves, the things THEY got up to. And those monasteries. And those ones perched on top of columns ....... what did that MEAN .... If only they had had psychology in those days, they might have been able to lead decent, respectable Christian lives.
Which sort of goes to show that the past is a more or less blank canvas that you can project almost anything onto.
Then for a change, you could project onto the future, other levels, other worlds, other countries and races - the ideas that were commonly held in the past about 'primitive races' were pure projection, both positive and negative (some were thought of as barbarian hordes, others as innocents living in total harmony with nature ) Other religions were (and are) fertile grounds for projection too, including your own (the lost and damned .... the true believers and the false ?)
To follow this, I want to have a further grumble, I still find it incredible that when videos and writings of the Dalai Lama and of the leading Tibetan teachers are readily available, where one could directly learn either about the religion itself, or perhaps gain some knowledge or wisdom from them, then people would still prefer to read Lobsand Rampa, and are more interested in the 'yak butter' side of buddhism than in their writings. But then, I have a piece of the true cross at home.
An example is Tarab Tulku - I attended one of his talks last year - he is very impressive, which he should be, as he is in his 11th incarnation as the senior professor of the Tibetan university system. Of course, this is an entirely different system of thought, and the education had different goals. It is very difficult to evaluate it, both from outside and inside it - from outside you don't really 'get' what it is about, from inside, you have already been 'recruited' into it.
Anyway, enough of this rambling, and good luck with the talk !!
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How silently, how silently,
Posts: 83 | From: surrey | Registered: Jul 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Resurrecting the Great Old Thread, The Thread That Should Not Live...
I thought some of you might be interested to know how the talk went.
It went really well. People laughed at the artist's impression of a Lemurian, gasped at the dishonesty of peopl who distort natural-looking undersea features so they look like sunken continents, and generally had a fine old time.
The bit after was interesting. One guy stuck his hand up and said, "what about the FreeMasons?"
My reply was something along the lines of "Well, since they're a secret society, it's all secret, and they haven't told me. And even if I was a member, I wouldn't tell you. Cos it's a secret. Next question?"
The Russian guy who'd asked about the Vedas grabbed me at the end and started talking at great length about Madame Blavatsky's racial theories. When he got to the point where he said "A lot of people are scared of eugenics, but I think it's a really good idea," I ran. As fast as I could.
I am now in the process of writing the talk up, so that I might attempt to sell it as an article to some publication or another. I'll tell you how I do.
Not that you care. But I'll tell you anyway...
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
I thought some of you might be interested to know how the talk went.
...
The Russian guy who'd asked about the Vedas grabbed me at the end and started talking at great length about Madame Blavatsky's racial theories. When he got to the point where he said "A lot of people are scared of eugenics, but I think it's a really good idea," I ran. As fast as I could.
...
Not that you care. But I'll tell you anyway...
I care, and I'm glad it went well. Next time bring some pepper spray for folks like Madame Blavatsky's disciple.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
<waving hand wildly> Oooh! Oooh! Oooh! If you write it up, would you PLEASE send me a copy? I like your writing and this topic is hugely interesting to me. (I can't decide if that should worry me. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) )
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
For future run-ins with eugenics disciples:
Familiarize yourself with the literature. Then prove to the person that *they* are not of a "superior" type and would probably not survive a eugenics regime.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
To be honest, this guy was way beyond piddling things like logical arguments. "Get away from me, you freak," seems a far more persuasive argument.
I'm with Laura's pepper spray suggestion (or I would be, if it could be obtained legally in this country).
Anyway, at the risk of getting into more trouble (now my potential Theosophical libel action problem's well and truly solved), I wonder - the "what about the freemasons?" guy got me thinking.
What about the freemasons? Do they have anything to do this? And why hasn't anyone mentioned Edgar Cayce yet?
Come on, guys, [Dr. Evil voice]throw me a bone here[/Dr. Evil voice]. This thread's over a year old, and I will make it run to a second page, if it kills me.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Oh, and Ken, when I write it up, I'll tell you where to buy a copy of the magazine it's in.
What d'you think I am, a charity?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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