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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Male feminism
argona
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Is there such a thing as a male feminist? What might he be like?

Not going to opine here, at least not yet. Just asking.

[ 13. November 2013, 20:59: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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Chorister

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Well if you take feminism to be the wish for women to be treated, like men, as equal human beings, then a male feminist won't be much different than a female feminist - they just want to treat everyone as part of the same human race.

Of course, if you mean 'radical feminist' then that would probably give you something quite different....

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the giant cheeseburger
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Basically what Chorister said.

I guess it would depend on what definition of feminism you're talking about as to whether it would be a positive thing, there are about as many different definitions of 'feminism' as there are of 'Christian.'

If you're talking about feminism as simply the belief that all people should have excellent opportunities regardless of sex or gender, then it's absolutely possible for men to be feminists. Indeed, such a definition for feminism would actually be positive for men as well as women because it would lead to sex-based gaps being closed both ways and efforts being put in to bring healthcare outcomes for men up to the standards enjoyed by women.

[ 25. August 2013, 12:22: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]

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Amorya

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Of course, if you mean 'radical feminist' then that would probably give you something quite different....

If I ever meet a so-called 'radical feminist' I will punch them in the face. They've irrevocably tainted the word feminist for me. They're anti-men in a bad way, they're transphobic, and they seem motivated by a desire for vengeance rather than a desire for equality.

So as others have said, if you mean feminist in its traditional definition of 'believer in equal rights for women', then I'd say a lot of men these days are feminist. But I wish there were another word for it, that doesn't carry so much baggage.

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quetzalcoatl
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20 years ago I was involved in gender studies academically, and I was a feminist, and I was, and (hello!) still am a bloke.

There were tons of male feminists then, and I assume there still are.

Some of the male feminists also went exploring into notions of masculinity under patriarchy, and so on, but this is not incompatible with feminism. In fact, it brings up interesting ideas as to how gender is constructed, and how it interrelates with sex and sexual orientation.

Certainly, in the UK there were plenty of female feminists who were averse to any anti-male stuff, and in fact, the anti-anti-porn movement was vigorous in the UK, although the US had some very good writers on it, e.g. Linda Williams.

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Dafyd
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I certainly think men should be feminists. The only reason a man shouldn't is the I'm not racist but... syndrome. For instance, men who declare themselves supporters of feminism except when it comes to challenging beliefs that women can't be priests.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Albertus
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Quite coincidentally, I am typing this while wearing a Fawcett Society 'This is what a feminist looks like' T-shirt- a bit like the one modelled very fetchingly by Bill Bailey here. It was given to me by Mrs A, who thinks I am one.
The classic statement of male feminism (of a liberal kind) is John Stuart Mill's marvellous and moving essay On the Subjection of Women.

[ 25. August 2013, 14:06: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Can there be such a thing as male feminism? I mean, there can surely be such a thing as feminism followed/subscribed to by males, but in describing something as "male feminism" you are starting to distinguish two different things. You have made it gendered.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Firenze

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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Can there be such a thing as male feminism? I mean, there can surely be such a thing as feminism followed/subscribed to by males, but in describing something as "male feminism" you are starting to distinguish two different things. You have made it gendered.

OK, call it 'gender equality'. That better? Feminism is not feminine.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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That's OK by me Firenze - as is the unqualified "feminism". (Though radical feminists would probably take issue.) It's only the gendered qualifier I'm questioning.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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leo
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I label myself a (male) feminist.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Soror Magna
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Joss Whedon.
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:


Certainly, in the UK there were plenty of female feminists who were averse to any anti-male stuff, and in fact, the anti-anti-porn movement was vigorous in the UK, although the US had some very good writers on it, e.g. Linda Williams.

Are you saying that to be anti-porn is to be anti-male? That's an interesting juxtaposition.

To equate being anti-porn with being anti-male suggests that the use of porn is at the core of maleness, and therefore to object to it is to object to maleness itself. So the female feminist who claims to love her husband yet disapproves of porn is living in a contradiction and fighting in vain against biology.

One sometimes comes across the apparently cynical comment that all the intelligent men in the 70s were feminists, because it was the only way to get women into bed. But maybe it's not that cynical after all. Maybe male feminism represents the perfect blending of political theory and human biology.

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rolyn
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Male feminism sounds something of an oxymoron at first glance . I've not yet heard of 'masculinism' although we do have something called macho-ism .

Accepting that men have a feminine side to their nature, I see nothing wrong with encouraging that side our humanity . Nature has decreed that women, (because of the childbearing capability), have an expanded sense of compassion which can only be beneficial to modern day society if adopted by both genders.

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Bostonman
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The classic statement of male feminism (of a liberal kind) is John Stuart Mill's marvellous and moving essay On the Subjection of Women.

To be fair, Mill credited his wife with co-authorship.

There are very clearly men who are feminists. Their feminism is not particularly distinct from women's feminism, although for some it is tinged with paternalism to a sufficient extent to count as "male feminism."

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:


Certainly, in the UK there were plenty of female feminists who were averse to any anti-male stuff, and in fact, the anti-anti-porn movement was vigorous in the UK, although the US had some very good writers on it, e.g. Linda Williams.

Are you saying that to be anti-porn is to be anti-male? That's an interesting juxtaposition.

To equate being anti-porn with being anti-male suggests that the use of porn is at the core of maleness, and therefore to object to it is to object to maleness itself. So the female feminist who claims to love her husband yet disapproves of porn is living in a contradiction and fighting in vain against biology.

One sometimes comes across the apparently cynical comment that all the intelligent men in the 70s were feminists, because it was the only way to get women into bed. But maybe it's not that cynical after all. Maybe male feminism represents the perfect blending of political theory and human biology.

No, I don't think that all anti-porn feminists were/are anti-male, but the so-called 'radical' feminists argued that sexual intercourse was intrinsically oppressive, or to use that well-worn phrase of the time, 'porn is the theory, rape is the practice', which I think originally came from Robin Morgan.

In fact, there was a wide spectrum amongst feminists 20 years ago, and I would surmise that there still is.

I just found the anti-anti-porn feminists very interesting, people like Lynne Segal, Linda Williams, and Mary McIntosh.

McIntosh made the argument that 'far from being the socially approved blueprint for sexual behaviour, porn is the repository for all the unacceptable and repressed desires of men'. This opens up the debate considerably, and in fact, some of these feminists were influenced by psychoanalysis, which would argue that sexual and gender identity is basically unstable and contradictory.

Well, this is branching off too much.

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Jengie jon

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This is to highlight a bit of a reverse situation. I am proofing the methodology chapter of my thesis. In doing so I am having to defend that my thesis is not Feminist. It can be described as Post-modern with a Foucauldian & Post-colonial twist; so I do address issues of the handling of power. It is just that the majority of them do not deal with sex or gender.

However, I am a woman. So I am having to defend my decision to not take a specifically feminist stance.

Jengie

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
... Nature has decreed that women, (because of the childbearing capability), have an expanded sense of compassion ...

[Roll Eyes] That`s not male feminism, that`s the Victorian view of women.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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quetzalcoatl
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It's also essentialism, which many gender theorists and feminists rejected. Instead, they turned to the notion of the 'social construction of gender', and I assume this is still current today.

But ironically, it seemed that some radical feminists also fell into essentialism, if they argued that the male is basically a rapacious and oppressive sex.

We used to call this 'original sin for gender theory', and of course, Mary Daly was originally a theologian, I think, and she came up with some amazing essentialist stuff, see her book 'Pure Lust'.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by argona:
Is there such a thing as a male feminist?

"Male feminist" is an oxymoron.

Can a man be supportive of women's struggle? Yes.

Might a man venture to call himself pro-feminist? Yes.

But, for a man to pretend to be a feminist means that he presumes to speak for women. That he cannot do.

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Kelly Alves

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Totally disagree. I think by taking on the term, men are showing solidarity. I will not white-glove a show of solidarity.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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The Silent Acolyte

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It's like letting the fox in among the chickens.

Men are the perpetrators of rape. Men cut women's genitalia as a form of sexual control. They deny women the vote. Men prohibit girls and women from education. Men deny women the freedom to work and hold their own capital. Men insist that a woman always be tended by a her father, her husband, or her son. Men restrict a woman's right to control her fertility. Men perpetrate sexual slavery over women in sex trafficking.

To let a man declare himself able to speak for women in overturning these systems of masculinist control over women would be farcical were not an outrage against justice.

Negate the oppression in my second paragraph and we might be able to talk about this odd phantasy, the male feminist.

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Kelly Alves

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I have a number of friends who have adopted the term, and none of them behave the way you describe. if there is any one unifying characteristic among them, it is their ability to actively listen and process things articulated from a woman's point of view. In short, Male feminists I have met distinguish themselves by trying to listen, no by trying to speak for me. Why the hell would I discourage that? They could call themselves TittyEnthusiasts for all I care, if they are walking that walk.

I am very sorry for whatever weird guys or rhetoric you may have encountered, but I must speak up for my friends. They are nothing like you describe. Nothing.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Niteowl

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

Men are the perpetrators of rape. Men cut women's genitalia as a form of sexual control. They deny women the vote. Men prohibit girls and women from education. Men deny women the freedom to work and hold their own capital. Men insist that a woman always be tended by a her father, her husband, or her son. Men restrict a woman's right to control her fertility. Men perpetrate sexual slavery over women in sex trafficking.


Every instance of above should have the word some in front of it. Yes, some men do vile things to women, but there have been and continue to be men that stand in solidarity with women. I agree with Kelly on not white gloving that solidarity.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
But, for a man to pretend to be a feminist means that he presumes to speak for women. That he cannot do.

I think you have an idiosyncratic idea of the connotations of the word "feminist". What's wrong with this dictionary definition?
quote:
fem·i·nist
adjective Sometimes, fem·i·nis·tic.
1.
advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.

noun
2.
an advocate of such rights.

Nothing in there about presuming to speak for anyone, as far as I can see.
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Kelly Alves

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Also, there are just as many women in the world who benefit from and perpetuate gender inequality as men. Sexism will continue to exist as long as there women in the world who pride themselves on tearing down other women.I accept the term "Male feminists" the same way I accept the term "female misogynist," because both exist.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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The Silent Acolyte

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Kelly Alves, what a wonderful place the land of waves and seagulls, football crowds, and churchbells must be. And, what wonderful friends you must have.

They and you are to be encouraged. It's delightful that they might be called TittyEnthusiasts or pro-feminists or supportive men.

But the facts of my second paragraph are not in dispute. These are matters of life and death.

Men cannot speak for women under the protective cover of the word feminism.

Niteowl, I applaud you leniency. Certainly not all men do these thing; however, they are without doubt a masculine enterprise. To say otherwise is to call white black and and darkness light.

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
But, for a man to pretend to be a feminist means that he presumes to speak for women. That he cannot do.

I think you have an idiosyncratic idea of the connotations of the word "feminist". What's wrong with this dictionary definition?
quote:
fem·i·nist
adjective Sometimes, fem·i·nis·tic.
1.
advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.

noun
2.
an advocate of such rights.

Nothing in there about presuming to speak for anyone, as far as I can see.

Thanks for that Dave.

FOr the record, this works for women, too. It is just as exasperating for a moderate, humanist feminist to have to apologize for "All men are oppressors" or "All sex is rape" rhetoric as it is for the average Christian to have to apologise for "Picketing gay funerals" rhetoric, or for a black person to have to preface every discussion on civil rights by assuring everyone they have never read the works of Elijah Muhammad.

For instance-- I have been calling myself a feminist (of and on) since I was about 14, and while I can't claim to be an expert I have dabbled in feminist literature, but the first time I ever heard the who "all sex is rape argument-- swear to God-- was when quetzalcoatl started talking about it. So, if it was all that trendy it must have peaked and fizzled pretty fast, because by the time I came around, it was gone.

The weirdest feminist writer I have personally encountered is Camille Paglia, who says there is no such thing as rape and that women are erotically stimulated by abusive men. Speak for yourself, hon.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Pegasus

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

Men are the perpetrators of rape. Men cut women's genitalia as a form of sexual control. They deny women the vote. Men prohibit girls and women from education. Men deny women the freedom to work and hold their own capital. Men insist that a woman always be tended by a her father, her husband, or her son. Men restrict a woman's right to control her fertility. Men perpetrate sexual slavery over women in sex trafficking.

Some men do these things. Plenty of women do too. I don't think your analysis stands.

(I am a woman, a feminist and a lesbian. Impeccable credentials, surely?)

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Penny S
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I am currently reading a book published in 1956, "Women in Antiquity" by Charles Seltman, sometime Fellow of Queens' College, Cambridge, and formerly lecturer in classical archaeology in the University of Cambridge. (I have read a non-peculiar book by him on "The Twelve Olympians", and wanted to complete the set.)

I go into detail, because he described himself as a feminist. While I think that men can be feminists, this chap would have been a very peculiar one.

quote:
... it was the Spartan group which enjoyed the greatest happiness. They lacked two things which are valued by women to-day --- a vote and a wardrobe. The former is no longer so much desired as it once was; and the women of modern Switzerland manage very well without it.
He still has a belief in the complete difference of men and women, and is very keen on showing that nakedness is a public good. And he favours free love as practised briefly in the USSR. (He cites de Beauvoir a lot.)

In the preface he defines his title.
quote:
"Women." There is no need to attempt a definition. We are always with them, and they with us. Fortunately.
He does finish - I have skipped to reading the end - with an approval of the modern woman. A modern woman domestic but not overborn by domesticity. It never crosses his mind that she might go out to work, or apply her scholarship to other than finding a husband.

While I am quite convinced that male feminists exist, and are capable of correctly self defining themselves as such, it seems that there should be caution in accepting those definitions.

BTW, Seltman is also very angry about the churches' past misogyny, utterly repulsed by homosexuality, and scathing about the way his fellows attempted to impose their own cloistered lifestyle on Athens. And wholly in favour of boarding schools after the style of Sparta taking boys away from mothers who might be over possessive, and who might encourage their sons to be fixated on them.

A very odd feminist indeed.

If this is a bit of a tangent - sorry, but I had to spill this out somewhere. I made the mistake of reading it last week when waiting for a blood pressure test at the surgery.

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Zach82
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It's a rather miserable thought that we can be complicit in the injustices of society without even thinking about it. No, not all men rape or abuse women, and TSA never said anything of the sort. But all men are privileged by the injustice of sexism, and become culpable for it whether they like it or not. It therefore becomes absurd when they presume to say that they can really have solidarity with women or speak for them. No matter how much a man believes in the equality of women, he is still speaking from his position of privilege.

[ 25. August 2013, 18:44: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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HCH
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Not too long ago one of my colleagues asked me if I was a feminist. I declined to answer, feeling less than comfortable. Later, thinking it over, I concluded my discomfort stemmed from her not defining what she meant by "feminist". I don't know what she means by the term, and I am reasonably sure that if I had said I am a feminist, she would have assumed I agreed with her about every detail.

Don't ask me if I am a feminist; ask me about specific issues.

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QLib

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quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Of course, if you mean 'radical feminist' then that would probably give you something quite different....

If I ever meet a so-called 'radical feminist' I will punch them in the face. They've irrevocably tainted the word feminist for me. They're anti-men in a bad way, they're transphobic, and they seem motivated by a desire for vengeance rather than a desire for equality.

So as others have said, if you mean feminist in its traditional definition of 'believer in equal rights for women', then I'd say a lot of men these days are feminist. But I wish there were another word for it, that doesn't carry so much baggage.

Radical feminist tends to be a label pinned on by others. Not all people labelled radical feminists are anti-men. Some are Marxists, for example. Feminism is not just about equal rights. For example, in a slave-owning society, would a feminist be happy if women had the right to own slaves and were treated as legally equal to male slave-owners?

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Garasu
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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Radical feminist tends to be a label pinned on by others. Not all people labelled radical feminists are anti-men. Some are Marxists, for example. Feminism is not just about equal rights. For example, in a slave-owning society, would a feminist be happy if women had the right to own slaves and were treated as legally equal to male slave-owners?

The danger with that, though, surely, is that "feminism" comes to mean "all right-thinking stuff"...?

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Albertus
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That reminds me of a line from Jeremy Hardy: 'I'd only want to see women on the floor of the Stock Exchange if they were dancing round their handbags there to celebrate the fall of capitalism.'

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daisymay

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And someone I know was born as a "male and female" inside, and later got fixed, opersted, to be a woman, rather than being both. She is definitely feminism, the way she things and behaves and treats people.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's like letting the fox in among the chickens.

Men are the perpetrators of rape. Men cut women's genitalia as a form of sexual control. They deny women the vote. Men prohibit girls and women from education. Men deny women the freedom to work and hold their own capital. Men insist that a woman always be tended by a her father, her husband, or her son. Men restrict a woman's right to control her fertility. Men perpetrate sexual slavery over women in sex trafficking.

To let a man declare himself able to speak for women in overturning these systems of masculinist control over women would be farcical were not an outrage against justice.

Negate the oppression in my second paragraph and we might be able to talk about this odd phantasy, the male feminist.

The male feminist is essential to negating the oppression your second paragraph. Women can argue and work against oppression till the cows come home and it won't make any difference unless we convince at least some men to be feminists.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Kelly Alves, what a wonderful place the land of waves and seagulls, football crowds, and churchbells must be. And, what wonderful friends you must have.

They and you are to be encouraged. It's delightful that they might be called TittyEnthusiasts or pro-feminists or supportive men.

But the facts of my second paragraph are not in dispute. These are matters of life and death.

Men cannot speak for women under the protective cover of the word feminism.

Niteowl, I applaud you leniency. Certainly not all men do these thing; however, they are without doubt a masculine enterprise. To say otherwise is to call white black and and darkness light.

I had a similar discussion with a white poster here. Her mother participated in the Civil Rights Movement in America. A black community leader told her it was not her fight. She conceded he had a point. I disagreed. And I disagree here as well. If we continue to separate ourselves, we have no hope of ever achieving triumph. At best we achieve a ceasefire or a switch in dominance.
For a person who claims to reject the right of one group to speak for another, your words surely belie the notion.

[ 25. August 2013, 21:30: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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I too was thinking of parallels to the Civil Rights movement in the US, which needed white people in Congress to advocate for the rights of black people. White people can't and shouldn't try to speak for black people, and men can't and shouldn't try to speak for women, but white people and men had damned well better learn to speak out in favor of equality for those unlike themselves.
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, there are just as many women in the world who benefit from and perpetuate gender inequality as men. Sexism will continue to exist as long as there women in the world who pride themselves on tearing down other women.I accept the term "Male feminists" the same way I accept the term "female misogynist," because both exist.

Yes, that seems pretty important to me. If it's just men who oppress women, then what is the solution? Why would they ever stop? It seems to get close again to that essentialist position, which is akin to original sin (for men).

Ironically, my local MP is a right-wing woman, whose position on various issues for women is well, reactionary.

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argona
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Don't know quite what I've started here.

If I seem to opine now, read my sig and believe I mean it.

And if this offends I don't mean it to, but I take it as basic that we're all liars. We put ourselves at an egocentric core and build something that makes sense to us around it, but mostly it's bullshit. The biggest liars are people with no insight into this.

So what's my bullshit here? A life that's not followed any of the rails it should have travelled along? Perhaps, except that as a savvy, educated guy I've always been careful not to come right off the tracks. Went to college, became a teacher. In a female-dominated specialism. Until my final job before retiring, which was unusual, I'd only had two male colleagues all my career. And then there were the years, 13 in total, in which I was full-time carer of our children.

So what? So nothing, shouldn't say a thing about me. I do have strong opinions about things more immediate. For example, women priests in the Church of England and the issue of female bishops, which definitely impinges on my family. I'd say the point's been well made by those who eschew any over-arching idealogical position, but stand by particular issues of justice. That's about where I am.

[ 25. August 2013, 23:18: Message edited by: argona ]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:


Ironically, my local MP is a right-wing woman, whose position on various issues for women is well, reactionary.

And yet, by holding the position that she does, she's benefiting from feminism. She's certainly no role model for docile, submissive, politically indifferent femininity.

I don't know how my parents vote, but when Mrs Thatcher pops up in conversation my mother always praises her for facilitating the financial independence of married women in the UK.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Men cut women's genitalia as a form of sexual control.

If you're referring to FGM I believe it is in most cases done by older women.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Men cut women's genitalia as a form of sexual control.

If you're referring to FGM I believe it is in most cases done by older women.
That was my understanding as well.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Kelly Alves, what a wonderful place the land of waves and seagulls, football crowds, and churchbells must be. And, what wonderful friends you must have.

I agree.

La La Land seems pretty cool, too.

Sometimes I forget how lucky I am to live in an area where gender equality is welcomed and encouraged.

Maybe that's why I don't have such a problem with my California brothers carry the torch. I know I am not losing anything by letting them do so, and that women all over have much to gain from doing so.

Some men (and women) out there simply will not hear certain gender-related information unless they hear it coming from a man. That sucks ass, but if men out there are willing to take one for the team, I say bless them for it.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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art dunce
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My husband, by virtue of the fact that he is a person of color, prefers womanist.

He also wields a great deal of influence and works diligently to advance the careers of women of all races in STEM fields.

[ 26. August 2013, 00:45: Message edited by: art dunce ]

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Men cut women's genitalia as a form of sexual control.

If you're referring to FGM I believe it is in most cases done by older women.
That was my understanding as well.
Older women may commit the slicing-up, but is that actually what's at issue? It's the why of the practice that matters. The why in this case being that women must be rendered culturally "fit" for matrimony and must be "cured" of their innate lustfulness, tendency to be unfaithful, and their animalistic sensuality; otherwise they'll breed with anybody at the drop of a hat. The cultural mythology around women being essentially permanently randy is what drives this practice, and it tends to be an offshoot of religious practices largely governed by men in the affected societies.

It's the flip side of the Victorian mythology that "normal, nice" women were incapable of pleasurable sexual feeling. It's quite likely that any number of Victorian women went to their graves ignorant of their own sexual capacities.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I too was thinking of parallels to the Civil Rights movement in the US, which needed white people in Congress to advocate for the rights of black people. White people can't and shouldn't try to speak for black people, and men can't and shouldn't try to speak for women, but white people and men had damned well better learn to speak out in favor of equality for those unlike themselves.

On that note, there's this...

And rather than bump and old thread, I will copy a post of mine here:

quote:
Without taking back what I said about my general [good]experience in cons, I can also say that I don't feel I really knew what the term "misogyny" meant until I became a gamer. That was the first time I met men who seemed to genuinely get off on making other women uncomfortable, and (Here's the real problem, I feel) men who were equally uncomfortable, but for some reason didn't have the stones to speak up and say, "Enough." The only evidence I had for a long time of anyone's disapproval was quietly whispered post game things like "Don't let X get to you, he only talks about wet pussy to get a rise out of you." Any attempt by women to set boundaries lead to immediate rebuke-- of the women. Those incidents happened in private homes, among (boy, what generous word I am about to use ) friends.What killed me is that all of the women in the group had been dragged there by their boyfriends, who expected their partners to adapt themselves to their gaming lifestyle, whatever their own interests might be.

And even the nicest of these guys shared the same weird trait-- when the women did get enthused- because gaming is fun, dammit-- and began creating kick ass characters, the guys would suddenly want to switch modules to one the women had never played. It was like they wanted us there, but always two steps behind.

OK, following my own advice, I will now relate the most awesome gaming story in my repertoire. One of the guys in our group wanted to run Shadowrun, and the pre-designed story he wanted to run began with a gang rape that we (a group of cops) were to encounter, He pulled the two women at that game aside ahead of time, and explained what was coming. He said if the motif bothered us at all he would alter it a bit. Because of his sensitivity, we trusted him enough to give him the green light.

So he sat down, and began leading us through the game. "Ok you guys are patrolling the street, and you look down an alley to see four teenage boys raping a girl."

Player Josh:"I get in line."

The other woman and I got up and walked out. My husband said nothing, I remember looking up at one of the guys in the group and hearing him say to me! "Oh come on! and angrily sighing. As we left the room we heard the book slam, but we pretty much thought we'd been successfully bullied out of the game.
Two minutes later Josh came in and mumbled one of those "I'm sorry if I caused offense" kind of apologies. We accepted (such as we could) but declined to return to the game.
Two minutes later the GM (Brian)came back. He was spitting mad. "Did he apologize?" he said, "Because I refuse to run the game unless he apologized."

So, according to my ex, that slam we heard was Brian slamming the book hard and saying, "That's it, game over."

And basically, one story like that can heal so much. I hardly ever think about Josh anymore, but I grew to really love Brian.

The other woman in this story told it at a D&D convention workshop on women in gaming, to hissing from the crowd. Another guy spoke up in disgust about a Dungeon Master he'd worked with who made a point to throw female player characters into rape scenarios, as he felt this was the realistic way women would be treated (in a fantasy based game. [Roll Eyes] ) The speaker and his male game mates got together privately and came up with a strategy, and the next time the DM pulled that stunt, they all shut their books in unison, stood up, and walked out.

He got prolonged applause from every man and woman in that room.

So, if we don't need male feminists, why didn't it work when me and my girlfriend walked out of the game? Why did the other men in the group turn to me and her and hiss at us, if all it takes is for women to stand up?

And why such a strong reaction to that guy's story from the crowd?

Think about the video clip. And think about what Ruth said.

[ 26. August 2013, 01:41: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Leaf
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The Silent Acolyte: What I see in this thread is the difference between "speak for" and "speak up for".
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Yes, exactly.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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