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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A Church?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
When William Booth founded The Salvation Army - initially calling it The Christian Mission - even after it was established with doctrines, sacraments, rules, ministers and members, etc, he refused to call it a church. He said "we are not and have no intention of being a church".
Now - especially over the last 40 years - TSA regards itself and publicises itself as being a church, but some people are still not so sure. I myself was told by a Presbyterian minister that we are not a church because we do not have sacraments.
So, I have two questions:
1) What properly constitutes a church, in your opinion.
2) Does The Salvation Army fit into that definition and can justifiable call itself a church; or do we fall outside that definition and therefore have to call ourselves something different.
This is not a leading question, I myself am on the fence. I would like to hear Shipmates take on all this from doctrine, tradition, ecclesiology, personal experience...
[ 10. January 2014, 21:06: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
In response I would answer thus:
1) A church is any collection of God's people. This is because I would emphasise "where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also."
2) Consequent to the first answer, I would say the Salvation Army does constitute a church. A slightly odd one, but a church nonetheless.
The question of sacraments is interesting. I would hope we could agree that a church (as defined above) that has communion once a fortnight is a church always, not just on the days that communion happens.
But a church that had no sacraments is an interesting idea. I've never come across one like that.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I am sure that you will get different answers to this question. As a Baptist, I tend to go for the simpler expressions of Church, as mentioned above.
But I know that others will have different views. For instance, must a Church:
- have sacraments? - and, if so, administered by whom?
- have some kind of formal order or constitution?
- gather around ordained ministry?
- place itself under the authority of a bishop?
- consciously set itself within an Apostolic succession?
- have a defined Statement of Faith?
I am sure others can think of further "Marks of the Church". But I am not sure if one can necessarily make a sharp distinction between a "Fellowship Group" (or its ilk) and a "Proper Church".
Two further points:
- re. the SA, surely John Wesley did not seek to found a "Church" either, at least to start with: he formed Methodist "Societies" and expected people to worship at the Parish Church.
- this whole question of "What is (and isn't) a Church is very pertinent when one comes to think of "Fresh Expressions" and "Missional Communities".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
I would hope we could agree that a church that has communion once a fortnight is a church always, not just on the days that communion happens.
Very few Nonconformist congregations have Communion every time they worship (it's typically once or twice a month) - yet we would all still consider ourselves to be Churches. And we would still think of ourselves as Churches even while the members are scattered around in daily living.
[ 26. September 2013, 10:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
There are two different questions hidden here. What marks a congregation as belonging to the Church? and what are the elements that make up a denomination?
The marks of the Church are:
People gathered to hear the Word and the sacraments duly administered.
That is not me being ecumenical, it is straight out of Calvin's Institutes. However it does have ecumenical implications. Even John Calvin, who was pretty Ecumenical, noted that it meant the church was wider than any denomination. It is the marks of the presence of the Earthly Church. That primarily expression of this refers to the local congregation. The level to which this can be applied to wider institutions is hotly debated within the Reformed tradition
Denomination is a late eighteenth and early nineteenth century invention. This is the idea that there are groups of Christians that form institutional groups of different flavours at least in England. English Non-Conformity before then was a fluid collection of congregations who formed and dissolved alliances as suited the congregation. You can still see this in the way individual congregations relate to Baptist Union of Great Britain. This in England included the Presbyterians.
There is no difficulty to recognise the Salvation Army as a denomination. There is also a hotly contested area on what to do when the sacraments can not be duly administered. Should the local congregation do the best it can or should it not partake? There have been different answers down the ages. For instance the Pilgrim Fathers while in Holland for quite a while did not partake of the sacraments because they did not have a minister. Compare that with the modern use of lay presidency in the URC or the use of visiting clergy and you see how different the response is today.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
- re. the SA, surely John Wesley did not seek to found a "Church" either, at least to start with: he formed Methodist "Societies" and expected people to worship at the Parish Church.
Precisely - and it wasn't until the late 19th century that the various Methodist traditions then existing began to describe themselves as churches. In some ways, we are still growing into our ecclesial-ness (if I can put it like that).
Loathe as I am to quote the Thirty Nine Articles, I think they have it right on this one: quote:
The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ's ordinance, in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same.
That's from Article 19 (slightly abbreviated). Wesley had that abbreviated form as Article 13 in his 25 Articles which he produced for the American Methodists.
[ 26. September 2013, 11:24: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
The marks of the Church are:
People gathered to hear the Word and the sacraments duly administered.
This needs an awful lot of unpacking, though, ISTM! 'Hear the Word' - does that mean 'hear a trained / ordained person give a sermon'? That's the typical understanding among Reformed Church people, isn't it?
And, as folks have already noted, what counts as a sacrament and what does it mean for those sacraments to be 'duly administered'?
Because there's so much potential for disagreement and even factionalism within Calvin's definition, I'd rather use a softer and, yes, woolier definition. Perhaps, building on TheAlethiophile's comment above, something about people gathering together in Jesus' name. And I'd want to let people come to their own elaboration of what it means to gather 'in Jesus' name'.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
And I'd want to let people come to their own elaboration of what it means to gather 'in Jesus' name'.
This is where it can get a little woolly. To try to come up with some all-encompassing definition might not be the best thing. Perhaps, common sense.
For my part, I would include such things as a bible study, taking part in communion, either giving or receiving teaching, communal prayer, etc.
Bumping into a few friends at the supermarket doesn't seem right.
The area I get frustrated about are those who would seem to fit any kind of common criteria and yet deny it, for some reason. For example, I never formally signed up the christian union at university, one of the reasons for not doing so was because they were insistent that they were not a church. Maybe this was because of the question of sacraments. Given it was run by very conservative anglicans, that may well be the case. Though it was never properly explained.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Trying for a 'non-institutional' definition of church, how about something like:
"A worshipping, missional community with Jesus at the centre"
Seems to me to sit comfortably with the New Testament and allows for a number of different views about loaded words like 'sacrament', 'due administration', 'ministry' etc. It also means that TSA is 'a church'.
(Admittedly, 'worshipping', 'missional', 'community' and 'Jesus centred' all probably need unpacking!)
Fortunately God knows what the church is ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
This is a very interesting topic, but is clearly much broader than just what worship and sacraments a church should have. Purgatory is probably the best place for it, so hold on to your hats!
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Most definitions of church include administration of the dominical sacraments. The SA does not administer the dominical sacraments. It doesn't even administer the dominical sacraments and call them ordinances. Therefore, the SA is not a church.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
The sacrament of baptism makes a Christian. Since TSA doesn't have baptism, not only is it not a Church, it isn't even an assembly of Christians. Before we start screaming about "following Jesus," baptism is perhaps Jesus' most straightforward command, which they don't obey.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Most definitions of church include administration of the dominical sacraments. The SA does not administer the dominical sacraments. It doesn't even administer the dominical sacraments and call them ordinances. Therefore, the SA is not a church.
It's this "most definitions" that worries me. Whose definitions?
Are we imposing one denominations rules on another? I know I've been told by anglicans that they expect every church, whether anglican or not, to comply with the 39 articles. Might we be falling into a similar error here?
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
It's this "most definitions" that worries me. Whose definitions?
Are we imposing one denominations rules on another?
For myself, I do not imagine my definition of "Church" is merely my own denomination's, but is actually the right, biblical definition that holds for all Christians, whether they agree or not.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Baptist Trainfan: For instance, must a Church:
- gather around ordained ministry?
Mine is out already
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The sacrament of baptism makes a Christian. Since TSA doesn't have baptism, not only is it not a Church, it isn't even an assembly of Christians.
Seriously??
When Booth was in talks with Canterbury whole SA congregations were marching off to the parish church for communion. He discovered to his dismay that only the Salvationists who had been previously confirmed before they joined up were being admitted to Communion; the rest were told to go down the road to the Methodists. Booth exasperatedly wrote "we are being divided at the church doors!"
It seems by Zach82's response that we are being divided at Heaven's doors too.
Seriously?? You are denying that saved, sanctified, washed-in-the-blood, sins-forgiven, born-again, baptised-in-the-Holy-Ghost, good-works-performing, Bible-preaching, creed-teaching, evangelising, hymn-and-chorus-singing Salvationists have, for 130 years, been outside the Christian faith because of a few drops of water?
I don't bloody think so!
[ 26. September 2013, 17:34: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I don't know what makes a church. But I suspect part of the requirement is intention. The group of people involved probably have to call it a church. The same group met by happenstance drinking in a pub on another night are probably not a church, no matter how theological the beer talk is.
How formal and unanimous was the Salvation Army transition from non-church to church? I could see that causing some confusion.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Are we imposing one denominations rules on another? I know I've been told by anglicans that they expect every church, whether anglican or not, to comply with the 39 articles. Might we be falling into a similar error here?
The 39 articles aren't even binding on all Anglican clergy so that seems like a bit of a non-starter to me.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
No, That particular rule appears in various places including Calvin's Institutes and the Augsburg Confession! So as well as that curious animal called the CofE it is mainstream Reformed and Lutheran. So rather a wide level of unanimity amongst Protestants.
If you want to know why I know this be prepared to be bored, lets just say I came across it in my search for another quote for my thesis.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
A member of a Friends Meeting was to get married. His bride was a Catholic. He was not baptised, and did not feel it right ordering to convert in order to be qualified to marry in the RC church. They consulted the Catholic bishop about the fittingness of a Quaker wedding and whether it would be counted as a marriage by the RCs.
The bishop replied that marriage as a sacrament was enacted by the bride and groom, not the priest, who was there to transmit the Grace of God to the couple. He, the bishop, recognised that there were other means by which grace could be transmitted, and he recognised that a Meeting of Friends was one of them, and so a marriage after the manner of Friends would be indeed a marriage in the eyes of the RC church.
Which suggests that he did not regard baptism as the problem that Zach does.
Mind you, I don't know if the SA has the same idea about the whole of life being sacramental as the Friends.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Mudfrog:
Seriously?? You are denying that saved, sanctified, washed-in-the-blood, sins-forgiven, born-again, baptised-in-the-Holy-Ghost, good-works-performing, Bible-preaching, creed-teaching, evangelising, hymn-and-chorus-singing Salvationists have, for 130 years, been outside the Christian faith because of a few drops of water?
Yeah but both the bible and the Nicene Creed teach baptism for the remission of sins. What you've been doing for 130 years contradicts what the entire Church did for 1900 years before that and what Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, and Wesleyan have done since. At some point, you would think an ounce of humility would lead the Salvation Army to respect the witness of the entire Church past and present, admit it's been wrong for 130 years, and start administering the sacraments even it joins those who insist on calling them ordinances.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
For myself, I do not imagine my definition of "Church" is merely my own denomination's, but is actually the right, biblical definition that holds for all Christians, whether they agree or not.
Zach82, in relatively few words you cast a merciless spotlight on a way of thinking that has provoked, sustained, and justified a great many bitter religious conflicts in the Christian era.
[ 26. September 2013, 18:29: Message edited by: roybart ]
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yeah but both the bible and the Nicene Creed teach baptism for the remission of sins.
I must need to update my Bible app with this novel understanding. Every version on there seems to teach that the remission of sins comes from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
You do need to update your Bible app. Apparently, it doesn't include the whole freakin Acts of the Apostles. Jesus commands baptism. Peter responds to the question "what must we do" with "repent and be baptized." Throughout Acts, those who hear the gospel proclaimed respond by being baptized.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yeah but both the bible and the Nicene Creed teach baptism for the remission of sins.
I must need to update my Bible app with this novel understanding. Every version on there seems to teach that the remission of sins comes from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The appropriate response to and sign of being to be baptised. It's a radical departure from both scripture and the tradition of the church for converts to not be baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This practice is commanded by Christ and recorded throughout the Book of Acts and the Epistles.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Were two or three are gathered in my name....
All the rest is garnish.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Nice title, when you post the legend comes up, "Going To A Church."
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Seriously?? You are denying that saved, sanctified, washed-in-the-blood, sins-forgiven, born-again, baptised-in-the-Holy-Ghost, good-works-performing, Bible-preaching, creed-teaching, evangelising, hymn-and-chorus-singing Salvationists have, for 130 years, been outside the Christian faith because of a few drops of water?
Baptism is an act of God, without which none can be righteous. TSA does not preach the bible, for the bible commands us to repent and be baptized.
As for the list of TSA's worthy deeds apart from "a few drops of water,"
"But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?" (2 Kings 5:11-13)
[ 26. September 2013, 19:22: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
...I don't know if the SA has the same idea about the whole of life being sacramental as the Friends.
Yes Penny we do. We are in the tradition of those who say that the whole of life is sacramental.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Mudfrog, why did you start this thread? I know we've been around this block a few times already. Did you think the answer would be different this time? It's general life advice to not ask a question if you are entirely unwilling to hear the answer "no."
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
There seems to be a consensus that the Salvation Army is "church-like". (It does seem to pass the "wherever two of three are gathered together" test.) This leads me to wonder: to what extent are 12-step programs such as AA "church-like"?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Or any group that begins with an invocation.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Deputy Verger
Shipmate
# 15876
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Posted
"Church-like", perhaps. "Higher-powered", definitely, but Christian, emphatically not. The God word features, but the Jesus word doesn't, in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of AA.
Posts: 475 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Deputy Verger: The God word features, but the Jesus word doesn't, in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of AA.
In many AA buildings, I have seen a big picture of Jesus holding a drunk guy, keeping him from falling down. Sadly, I can't find it on the internet.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Mudfrog, why did you start this thread? I know we've been around this block a few times already. Did you think the answer would be different this time? It's general life advice to not ask a question if you are entirely unwilling to hear the answer "no."
The question was whether people felt we were a church, not whether we were Christians or not!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Deputy Verger
Shipmate
# 15876
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Posted
That's as may be, but it is optional, not official. Officially: "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes."
Enough people in AA have trouble with the concept of a "higher power", let alone the "God thing". Christian faith may feature in some individuals or groups, but it is not part of the package. They talk about "God as we understand God". It is deliberately not credal.
But this thread is about the Sally Ann, which does consider itself a Christian Church, with "churches":
"The Salvation Army is an international Christian church worshipping and working in 126 countries and has more than 800 local churches in the UK and Ireland."
Posts: 475 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Mudfrog, why did you start this thread? I know we've been around this block a few times already. Did you think the answer would be different this time? It's general life advice to not ask a question if you are entirely unwilling to hear the answer "no."
The question was whether people felt we were a church, not whether we were Christians or not!
And you seem to have thoroughly made up your mind, despite your claim to be sitting on the fence about the issue.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
There seems to be a consensus that the Salvation Army is "church-like". (It does seem to pass the "wherever two of three are gathered together" test.) This leads me to wonder: to what extent are 12-step programs such as AA "church-like"?
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Or any group that begins with an invocation.
Such as the United States Senate.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
Mudfrog, as someone in the catholic, credal, sacramentally-oriented tradition of Christianity, i say that the SA is a church, whether or not it professes the creeds or celebrates the sacraments. You are a community of people who believe that Jesus saved us.
I think that the assertion that you are not a church, or not even Christian, can legitimately be seen as arrogant.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mudfrog, as someone in the catholic, credal, sacramentally-oriented tradition of Christianity, i say that the SA is a church, whether or not it professes the creeds or celebrates the sacraments. You are a community of people who believe that Jesus saved us.
I think that the assertion that you are not a church, or not even Christian, can legitimately be seen as arrogant.
It's arrogant to judge circumstances according to clear definitions and not according to feelings? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: It's arrogant to judge circumstances according to clear definitions and not according to feelings?
Somewhere I have this nagging suspicion that we are not the One who should judge what is a church and what it not.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mudfrog, as someone in the catholic, credal, sacramentally-oriented tradition of Christianity, i say that the SA is a church, whether or not it professes the creeds or celebrates the sacraments. You are a community of people who believe that Jesus saved us.
I think that the assertion that you are not a church, or not even Christian, can legitimately be seen as arrogant.
It's arrogant to judge circumstances according to clear definitions and not according to feelings?
From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/church
quote:
Full Definition of CHURCH
1 a building for public and especially Christian worship
2 the clergy or officialdom of a religious body
3 often capitalized : a body or organization of religious believers: as
a : the whole body of Christians
b : denomination <the Presbyterian church>
c : congregation
4 a public divine worship <goes to church every Sunday>
5 the clerical profession <considered the church as a possible career>
As I see it the SA is a church according to definition #3. Members of the SA are believers. Nothing emotional in my use of the term.
[ 27. September 2013, 02:24: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mudfrog, as someone in the catholic, credal, sacramentally-oriented tradition of Christianity, i say that the SA is a church, whether or not it professes the creeds or celebrates the sacraments. You are a community of people who believe that Jesus saved us.
I think that the assertion that you are not a church, or not even Christian, can legitimately be seen as arrogant.
It's arrogant to judge circumstances according to clear definitions and not according to feelings?
Exactly!
Substituting your own feelings and opinion for what is clearly taught by scripture and tradition is not arrogant either. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: It's arrogant to judge circumstances according to clear definitions and not according to feelings?
Somewhere I have this nagging suspicion that we are not the One who should judge what is a church and what it not.
Yeah, that's pretty much my point.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by malik3000:
As I see it the SA is a church according to definition #3. Members of the SA are believers. Nothing emotional in my use of the term.
So, there you have it, Mudfrog. According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, the SA is a church! Congratulations!
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Somewhere I have this nagging suspicion that we are not the One who should judge what is a church and what it not.
Yeah, that's pretty much my point.
Doesn't this also mean that we shouldn't look for definitions and clues with which we can judge whether others are Christian or not, or whether what they have is a church or not, but instead leave it up to Him?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I have a problem with the Merium Webster Dictionary of the "church"
The key definition of the church, to me, is the people of God who profess Jesus as the Christ. It is not a building. It is not a hierarchy. It is not a denomination or even a creed. It is the people.
Now, to the question of Salvation Army--it is a group of people who profess Jesus as the Christ.
To those who say since SA does not practice the sacrament of baptism, it is not Christian, do you also say the Friends are not Christian?
The sacraments are means of grace in which God acts graciously to humans, but there are also other means of grace, the preaching of the Word and the mutual consolation of the brothers/sisters. Salvation Army definitely practices those last two means of grace.
BTW, I do think the Salvation Army has a definite creed, though it may not be used in its worship. Go to their website. That is a creedal statement if I ever saw one.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Doesn't this also mean that we shouldn't look for definitions and clues with which we can judge whether others are Christian or not, or whether what they have is a church or not, but instead leave it up to Him?
I don't see why that should follow at all. Indeed, the most important question of all is "Am I a Christian?"
This obliges us to discern God's will as best we can and pray for the grace to obey when we have discerned it.
[ 27. September 2013, 02:59: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: I don't see why that should follow at all. Indeed, the most important question of all is "Am I a Christian?"
This obliges us to discern God's will as best we can and pray for the grace to obey when we have discerned it.
I agree that "Am I a Christian?" is an important question. Personally I'm not sure if we'll ever be able to fully answer it, because in the end that's also up to Him, but it is an important question to ponder in our relationship with God.
What I don't see very well however, is why you're so eager to answer a different question, "Is the other person a Christian?"
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I have a problem with the Merium Webster Dictionary of the "church"
The key definition of the church, to me, is the people of God who profess Jesus as the Christ. It is not a building. It is not a hierarchy. It is not a denomination or even a creed. It is the people.
Now, to the question of Salvation Army--it is a group of people who profess Jesus as the Christ.
To those who say since SA does not practice the sacrament of baptism, it is not Christian, do you also say the Friends are not Christian?
The sacraments are means of grace in which God acts graciously to humans, but there are also other means of grace, the preaching of the Word and the mutual consolation of the brothers/sisters. Salvation Army definitely practices those last two means of grace.
BTW, I do think the Salvation Army has a definite creed, though it may not be used in its worship. Go to their website. That is a creedal statement if I ever saw one.
That members of TSA have grace is not being questioned. However, insofar as the grace of being a Christian is conferred by baptism, and TSA does not practice baptism, then they cannot be counted as part of the Church or as Christians.
Sure, TSA does some wonderful work for charity, and believes certain parts of the Bible to boot. All of that is great, and is a work of God's grace. But no one becomes a Christian by his own merit or works- it is an act of God. I say this not to exclude them from
the Church, but to implore them to join it by being baptized and making their communion in the Church as a member of the Body of Christ.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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