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Originally posted by Jim Powell:
A---is it faith alone in Christ?

B---is it faith plus works?

C---is it a system of works?

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Grace.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim Powell:
A---is it faith alone in Christ?

B---is it faith plus works?

C---is it a system of works?

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How about none of the above.

Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

Someone doing works, or a system of works, might be doing them hypocritically. But keeping the commandments in your heart allows God to work within you so that you are spiritually reborn.

The exhortations to have faith imply that if you believe in God you will do as He commands. Otherwise you are foolish, as Jesus said.

You need to be purified so that you are fit for heaven, as it says in the purgatory heading. It takes a while, and it is not easy - but it is God who does it, not you.

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Originally posted by Freddy:
Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

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quote:

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Someone doing works, or a system of works, might be doing them hypocritically. But keeping the commandments in your heart allows God to work within you so that you are spiritually reborn.

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I think the idea of purification was picked up by the Israelites from Zoastrianism (oh boy, more syncretism). How do you purify metal? You stick it in a fire, and all the impurities are burned away. If the metal is especially impure, you might be left with very little at all. So it might be (said the Babylonians) with the soul: on death, you pass through a purifying fire. What's left goes to heaven. If you're completely impure, none of you will make it.

Sorry, I'm rambling...

Jesus said that the two commandments which are most important are: Love God with all your heart etc etc; and Love your neighbour as yourself. Seeing as Christians are encouraged to see God in other people, I take that to be two sides of the same commandment: if you love God, you can't hate your neighbour; and vice versa. And if you truly love God, this will be reflected in your life for all to see.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim Powell:
A---is it faith alone in Christ?

B---is it faith plus works?

C---is it a system of works?

:

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I view salvation as more about being brought into 'eternal life' which starts now. The fruits of eternal life are growth in a relation with God, good works and hopefully strengthening faith. As is said at the administration of the eucharist at many (Anglican) churches - may the body of Christ KEEP you in eternal life - not get you into heaven.

I believe that the way in which this happens is different for everyone, but the common thread is that one - grace.

The wonderful thing about grace, is that it frees us from worrying whether we are good enough for God (we're not, but he accepts us anyway). And with all that energy we save by not worrying about our salvation, and with the thankfulness we have in our hearts from knowing we are loved by God, we have the time and enery and motivation to overflow into love and compassion and service to our neighbour.

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The wonderful thing about grace, is that it frees us from worrying whether we are good enough for God (we're not, but he accepts us anyway). And with all that energy we save by not worrying about our salvation, and with the thankfulness we have in our hearts from knowing we are loved by God, we have the time and enery and motivation to overflow into love and compassion and service to our neighbour.

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Yeah ...

I think Manx Taffy has a point in that our motivation can't be avoiding hell. This to me seems fear based rather that a desire to be near God and can't be helpful when sharing our faith.

My 2 pence worth anyway.

Christ said the two great commandments were to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind” and “to love your neighbour as yourself”.

If you love God with your Heart then you’ll be open to him working within you to change you and make you more like Him.

If you love God with your Mind then you’ll have a faith that is capable of engaging with others and listening and learning from them.

If you love your neighbour as yourself there will be a visible difference in your attitudes to others, the environment, the poor etc.

To me, you need all three but it’s a long process – sometimes painful and sometimes fun – but always worth it. The Christian that I am now is different to the one I was when I got saved is different to the one I will be in the future.

Jim, you haven’t said what you think. – A or B or C or what?!

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Originally posted by Wibblethorpe:
Repentance proved by deeds.
W

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Eph. 2:8&9 declares that we are saved by our faith & not works.

John 3:15 states that if a person simply believes in Jesus Christ, they are saved.

John 6:47 declares that belief in Jesus Christ is all that is required for eternal life.

Good works are a bye-product of slavation, not a requirement.

Jim - how will you know when all who wish to reply have done so?

but what does this mean? is there a minimum knowledge about the mechanism by which Christ saves us that we need to understand or assent to? Does that mean those who can't understand such a (hypothetical) minimum knowledge can't be saved?

Alan

[typo corrected]

d... all of the above.

I think the rest of us should all shut up and listen to the sermon he has to preach and receive the blessings he has been sent to deliver.

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Originally posted by Dyfrig:
Of course, the one time when Jesus was actually asked this question, he replied, "Sell everything you have and go and give it to the poor". Hmm....

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No, He said, "Keep the commandments." The man asked which ones and Jesus responded specifying six of the ten commandments. When the man said that he had done these, that is when Jesus said to sell everything (Matthew 19.16-22).

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Originally posted by Charles:
This question has been asked so often by Jim and others on this web site and on the Church Net that it seems somewhat superfluous to be asking it again.

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Yes but it is interesting for us who are new.

Not that I don't know what Jim's "correct" answer is.

When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he could do to obtain eternal life, Jesus basically told him to be perfect & sinless. The rich man & people today misconstrue this statement into thinking they can go about setting their own righteousness by lying to themselves into thinking they can actually do this. The rich ruler wasn't in the repentant frame of mind when he confronted Jesus, the rich ruler was seeking something that he alone could do to gain acceptance from God. The rich ruler needed to change his mind & realize he was helpless & needed a redeemer. Since noone can keep the commandments perfectly, we have to rely (trust) in the One who did accomplish this, Jesus Christ. By trusting in Christ, we swap our righteousness (which is unacceptable to God) for Christ's righteousness.

The book of James was written to the 12 scattered tribes of Israel. There were many new Christians among these tribes. James was encouraging these disillusioned, new Christians to be happy to be 'tested' in their new faith. Many of the new Christians had become disheartened in their new faith because of their failure to pass the tests and as a result their faith was 'dead'.

These 'dead faith' Christians weren't 'lost' because their faith was now dead. They were just confused & scared and falling for all sorts of false doctrines.

James was simply telling the Christian Jews to pass their tests of faith, thus there faith would grow and their faith would in turn be made perfect. They would then be fruitful Christians and be able to be used of the Lord.

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Originally posted by Kelly:
I pose the question ...who has kept all the commandments perfectly?

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Who said anything about keeping them all perfectly? It is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

No one of their own power can keep any commandment. But God helps you to turn away from sin, if you let Him - because the power is in Him.