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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: EXODUS - Second Thoughts (Bible nonstop)
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
A thread for posting second (or third) takes on verses from the EXODUS: The Bible Non-stop thread and discussions thereof (this way we can keep the paraphrase going relatively uninterrupted...).
[ 15. February 2010, 15:14: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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Truth
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
Often when I'm writing my paraphrases, I want to add explanations for the events. The OT style seems to take its cue from Sergeant Friday: "Just the facts, ma'am." Anyone else noticed that?
One detail I would add to the paraphrase of Exodus 1:8-14 is that the new Pharaoh did not know Joseph. I've always taken that to mean, not just that he personally didn't know Joseph, but that he hadn't been taught about Joseph. Or maybe he had, but brushed off all that ancient history as irrelevant. In any case, I imagine it as a gradual neglectful decline from Pharaoh to Pharaoh, until this one arises who doesn't know him at all.
[ 17. April 2008, 00:53: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
"Just the facts, ma'am!" Yes, AR, I've often wished for more editorial comments from within scripture: "and this was bad because..." Or perhaps I'm just slow that way! I do find, however, that if I ask God to explain something to me, He usually does (sometimes very quickly and sometimes months later; His timing is His timing).
I have heard speculation that this pharaoh, the one who didn't know Joseph (since it's 400 years later and Joseph only lived to 110, we know there have been quite a few pharaoh's who didn't know him), wasn't Egyptian but a one of the conquering rulers (occasionally different people groups had the upper had in Egypt); I went looking for the name of the people group (I want to say something with an H-- helpful, eh?!*) but look what I found from the BBC, not the most pro-religious of organizations. On page 2464-65 of Dr William Smith's Dictionary of the Bible Comprising Its Antiquities he alludes to an Assyrian or Babylonian dynasty in Egypt.
* Found it: Hyksos, in this rather interesting article. I do know from my brother & his wife and their multiple travels in Egypt with a rather well-known Egyptologist (I have one of his books but it's packed and I don't remember his name-- wait, I think this is him: Bob Brier, The Murder of Tutankhamen) that the Egyptians were very quick to rewrite their history to serve their own purposes - and naturally those purposes changed from dynasty to dynasty, pharaoh to pharaoh. Almost all records of Tutankhamen were obliterated not very many years after he died (you know, chiseled out of monuments, etc.). Deep stuff.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
From Nigel's post over on the main thread: quote:
Joinette scampered up at this point and said, “Would it pleasure One if I were to acquire the services of a Pleb to attend to this Junior Pleb's needs, perchance?” (A wily young lass, that. Pride of the Tribe).
Would it pleasure one?! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Oh my...
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
From Nigel's post over on the main thread: quote:
Joinette scampered up at this point and said, “Would it pleasure One if I were to acquire the services of a Pleb to attend to this Junior Pleb's needs, perchance?” (A wily young lass, that. Pride of the Tribe).
Would it pleasure one?! Oh my...
Authorial intention, my dear, authorial intention!!!!
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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It's the great unexpected delight I've gotten from these Bible Non-stop threads: the way other people see a passage and the humor or emotional insight they bring in their paraphrases... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I mean, I enjoy writing up a paraphrase but I enjoy reading what others say a lot more.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Jamat
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# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
"Just the facts, ma'am!" Yes, AR, I've often wished for more editorial comments from within scripture: "and this was bad because..." Or perhaps I'm just slow that way! I do find, however, that if I ask God to explain something to me, He usually does (sometimes very quickly and sometimes months later; His timing is His timing).
I have heard speculation that this pharaoh, the one who didn't know Joseph (since it's 400 years later and Joseph only lived to 110, we know there have been quite a few pharaoh's who didn't know him), wasn't Egyptian but a one of the conquering rulers (occasionally different people groups had the upper had in Egypt); I went looking for the name of the people group (I want to say something with an H-- helpful, eh?!*) but look what I found from the BBC, not the most pro-religious of organizations. On page 2464-65 of Dr William Smith's Dictionary of the Bible Comprising Its Antiquities he alludes to an Assyrian or Babylonian dynasty in Egypt.
* Found it: Hyksos, in this rather interesting article. I do know from my brother & his wife and their multiple travels in Egypt with a rather well-known Egyptologist (I have one of his books but it's packed and I don't remember his name-- wait, I think this is him: Bob Brier, The Murder of Tutankhamen) that the Egyptians were very quick to rewrite their history to serve their own purposes - and naturally those purposes changed from dynasty to dynasty, pharaoh to pharaoh. Almost all records of Tutankhamen were obliterated not very many years after he died (you know, chiseled out of monuments, etc.). Deep stuff.
You might be interested in 'Ages in Chaos ' by Immanuel Velikovsky. He sees parallels between Exodus account and an ancient doc called the 'Ipuwer Papyrus'(PP21-26 of AIC). The basic thesis is the total destruction of the Egyptian infrastructure which led to a paucity of evidence surviving.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
What do people make of the Divine Name / Tetragrammaton / YHWH / Adonai / יהוה reference in Exodus 3:14 (and elsewhere)?
If a verb, which tense? If a noun, is a verbal translation appropriate? Was it intended to be the Divine Name for use by God's people or was it a passing reference that became blown out of all proportion?
Or is it a case of the making of books on this subject there is no end, so perhaps we shouldn't start here?!
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
oooh, you posted in Hebrew! cool! (yes, I know there's a sticky thread; I just don't do it) I've been studying Hebrew for about a year and a half now with our rabbi (my church has a special relationship with a local synagogue; they use our church for their High Holy Days because we've got the capacity - and over these 9 years we've built a really rich relationship, so Rabbi is teaching a handful of us goyim) and he certainly sees the name as highly significant - he spent a fair amount of time explaining how past-present-future tense are all implied in the structure of the name, etc. - that was pretty far over my head but I do remember that "was and is and is to come" quality. If we're meeting this week I'll try to remember ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) to make a note to your question, Nigel, and get his opinion at least.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Jamat
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# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Oh interesting, Jamat - I know Velikovsky by reputation but confess I've not read any of his books (at least I don't remember reading Worlds In Collision but I might have, ages back). I see others have independently concurred with some of his ideas.
Vellikovsky isn't a Christian but he is pretty well pooh poohed by the establishment. However he is interesting nevertheless. He suggests that the Hyksos or 'Amu' were in fact the Amelekites who invaded Egypt at the time the Hebrews left and occupied it after finding a vacuum of power. They were destroyers by nature and were (according to V) the ruling world power between the Exodus and the end of the time of the Judges. He posits that Saul joined forces with an Egyptian warlord to finally defeat them
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
If we're meeting this week I'll try to remember to make a note to your question, Nigel, and get his opinion at least.
It would be interesting to get his take on whether the divine name phrase in v.14 is in any way linked to the exact same verb usage in v.12, where God tells Moses that he (God) “Will be with you.” In verse 12 the usage is the 1st person singular imperfect of the verb hayah (= היה), “To be.” I wonder if verse 14 has this in mind? If it has, then the emphasis is on the future state – I will be.
Of course the name has become overlain with an incredible amount of significance. I can't tell whether this passage was recorded and retained to account for that significance, or whether it is a by-product of it.
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
Well, this is the first time that God has attached a name to Himself; I think in itself that gives tremendous importance to the name. Up until now it's been "I am the God of your fathers, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" or others have attached a name to Him, like Hagar in Genesis 16:13 where she calls Him 'the God that Sees me' (אל ראי if I've done it right). Moses, writing the Torah, has the name from the beginning so he can specify even though the name apparently hasn't been provided yet. I find it interesting the times people ask Him, "what is Your name?" and He declines to give them His name.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
Further to this post addressing Exodus 4:24, a friend's daughter came to me at a Mythcon a few years back and asked me about this scripture. She'd been reading her Bible and thought it was really weird and asked her parents, who didn't know the answer, and I suppose didn't get a satisfactory answer from their minister, either. So I sat down and read the passage (one I'd never really thought about, myself) and asked God to show me what was going on. And I think He did:
I've noticed a type I don't really have a word for - when God is establishing something, when He's doing a new thing, He really slaps hard in order that we might get it, take it seriously.
He's calling Moses to be the giver of the Law - but Moses hasn't kept the law in his own household; apparently Zipporah objected to circumcision and he allowed her opinion to be preeminent, at least in this regard.
The passage also says Moses, his wife and sons (plural) but apparently only one circumcision takes place, which makes me wonder if he got his way with their first son and then she said no, not with the second son.
How can Moses give the Law if he doesn't live the Law? And circumcision had been established when God changed Abram's name to Abraham, back in Genesis
17:9, so it's something that Moses should have been diligent about - yet he hadn't.
And you can't tell me that Moses could escape death if God actually wanted him dead - no, I think God was saying, "Wake up! This is serious!" by threatening him - and doing it in front of Zipporah so that she also had to come into agreement with God.
I think the death of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 is another example of this type (and maybe even that is the wrong terminology-- I am happy to be educated further); the lesson there being do not attempt to deceive the Holy Spirit. And I see the death of Uzzah when he puts out his hand to steady the Ark of the Covenant as another example; they had the Law, they knew the right way to transport the Ark - just because God allowed the ignorant Philistines to 'get away with' putting it on a cart drawn by cattle doesn't mean God will let His own people do likewise, not when they should know better.
Thoughts?
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Tend to agree. Of course, it's rough on the folks that end up as Horrible Warnings. But I can't deny that God has the right to do so.
[ 29. April 2008, 00:19: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
It's one of the challenges of scripture and the nature of God, I think, and how He's very different from us: He has a much easier time seeing The Big Picture™. I don't know that He has fewer qualms about allowing someone to die in order that the community learn a vital lesson (e.g., Uzzah) but the nature of His qualms is different. I don't think smiting Uzzah was 'personal' (not in the way that smiting Er was personal... or maybe I'm wrong about that, too - Lord knows it's happened before!). But I don't see any reason why Uzzah wouldn't be in heaven, fr'instance; I view the Jews who predate the Incarnation as going to the bosom of Abraham and being part of the people in Sheol/Hell to whom Jesus preaches - and I trust the vast majority will recognize their Messiah when He says, "Come with me if you want to live--" (a little Terminator reference ).
In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Jews who have yet to die are even in the bosom of Abraham when Jesus shows up to preach - it's an outside-of-time thing, methinks.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I saw a book once with an amusing title. It was Here I Am Lord, Send Aaron.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I leafed through it. The text did not appear to live up to the title, so I didn't get it.
The author appears to have used up all his inspiration on the title.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
That can happen... and I suspect if it lived up to the title (still grinning), I'd've heard of it - you'd say, "well remember how Frank N. Furter in Here I Am Lord, Send Aaron said, "it's always darkest just before the bush ignites," and I would nod knowingly and say, "yes, yes, wonderful book."
Ach weel--
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
Over on the main thread - - if I was familiar with Office Space I'm sure that Bullfrog's latest would be even more amusing to me *sigh*
However, I actually have a serious query - Nigel, I think, wrote the memo about the work stoppage or the Hebrews not fulfilling the quota of (gadgets? widgets? something).
My reading of scripture is that the Israelites met the quota up until Pharaoh stopped supplying them with straw, thus radically increasing the burden of work because they had to make the bricks (as per usual) and procure their own supplies, which had been provided up until then.
The motive has always seemed to me to be: "Hey, if you guys have got enough time to talk about having a 3 day love-in in the desert, you've got too much time on your hands." Is that me reading into the scripture? quote:
"But the quota of bricks which they were making previously, you shall impose on them; you are not to reduce any of it. Because they are lazy, therefore they cry out, 'Let us go and sacrifice to our God.' Let the labor be heavier on the men, and let them work at it so that they will pay no attention to false words."
I loved this.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
Over on the main thread - [Big Grin] - if I was familiar with Office Space I'm sure that Bullfrog's latest would be even more amusing to me *sigh*
Eh, the jokes aren't very sophisticated. The beginning of the movie portrays a man trapped in a stereotypical cubicle job being asked by three supervisors for these mysterious "TCP reports." The picture of the guy representing the Egyptian managers is his main boss, a farcically dull, yet manipulative and passive-aggressive jerk.
The scene portrayed in the "angry Israelites" is one where the protagonist and his henchmen take their vengeance, to a pounding rap rhythm (I'm sure this is a mockery of another movie, but I don't know which), upon a very recalcitrant printer. Yes, the scene involves a baseball bat.
The picture of Light Bringer (and I hope that's Moses) is one of the protagonist's buddies, who is apparently a computer whiz, and "Drawn Out" is the protagonist, a charismatic (if someone foolish) man who has, shall we say, a path to liberation from cubicle hell that drives the main plot of the movie.
The whole flick is basically one running joke on the hell that is office work (with some asides on the restaurant business) and one man's ill-advised escape therefrom. I thought it worked rather well with Nigel's theme.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
...Nigel, I think, wrote the memo about the work stoppage or the Hebrews not fulfilling the quota of (gadgets? widgets? something).
My reading of scripture is that the Israelites met the quota up until Pharaoh stopped supplying them with straw, thus radically increasing the burden of work because they had to make the bricks (as per usual) and procure their own supplies, which had been provided up until then.
Yes, I may be reading into this, but I took the inflection (Hebrew Perfect) of the verb in 5:5 "To give rest" as being the equivalent of the English simple past (or possibly present perfect) tense. It came out more like "You have given them rest..." (or possibly "...are giving them rest..."). It implied to me that there was already some slacking off on behalf of the Israelites.
Also, a bit later on in the text (5:21), the Israelites complain to Moses (and won't that become a common theme!) about what Moses and Aaron were doing; it sounded to me as though the workers were already aware of Moses' negotiations with Pharaoh - which might have raised initial hopes and loss of focus on their work.
I really like those Far Side type cartoons of Moses!
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Actually "Lightbringer" is Aaron and Moses means Drawn (so I went with "Drawn Out" because Autenrieth Road went with it... resonates with 'the woman you gave me', doesn't it?!) - it's what Pharaoh's daughter said.
But only folks who know the show (and that may be everyone except me--!) will think you miscast... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Eh, they're not perfect matches. In Office Space, the big idea guy is also the charismatic spokesperson, while the other two are just implementers.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
Nigel, I'm sure you knowledge of Hebrew verb tenses is far beyond mine. But either way, the Hebrews had more time before the Moses/Pharaoh negotiations started.
I think this is a fairly common pattern: it gets worse before it gets better. Maybe that's even a necessarily part of the process of change? I mean, I think of the birth process from the baby's perspective: suddenly they're being squeeze and pushed and expelled - yikes! No wonder we enter life with a cry (besides, the doctors worry if you don't).
Bullfrog, I think that's more typical - but I really appreciate that God uses Moses who needed Aaron; it's a good model of interdependence, one that Moses has to learn on a number of occasions (Jethro tells him to share the work of judging, Aaron & Hur have to hold up his arms during the battle with Amalek).
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
Over on the main thread, Nigel said:
quote:
“So be it,” huffed Drawn-Out, “I'll never, ever, come before you again.”
And dramatically swinging his cloak about him, he swung about and exited stage left.
And then in posting Chapter 11 (hmmm...) I got hung up on verse 8 and finally realized Moses didn't leave Pharaoh's presence until then - this final 'huff' is pretty drawn out! Another example of the Biblical pattern of giving a synopsis and then giving a more detailed account, eh?
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
Good point. There was one final puff between Moses' huff and God blowing the Egyptian house in.
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
Yeah, I kept struggling to figure out what was going on; I find it weird that Moses makes this announcement in front of Pharaoh (verse 2) - but perhaps that's what he's going to do as soon as he leaves Pharaoh's presence - sometimes these things are hard to work into clarity by modern standards... but I enjoy trying!
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Why hasn't anyone posted anything else on the Bible Nonstop thread??? It's been freaking days!
I'd post again, but I've already double posted!
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
But the last post was, like, two weeks ago!
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
Sorry, guys - I've been juggling cats and just haven't had the mental energy, at the end of the day (read: middle of the night!). But I figured I could post ONCE PER DAY --and often did!-- through the Genesis thread... feel free, Bullfrog (you plague beast you!)
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Nigel, as for your 'disturbance in the force' reference, I feared you might have had a different reference in mind ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Extract from the Shorter Ship Dictionary:
“A-disturbance-in-the-force”: noun phrase; commonly used to designate that state of affairs in an individual's life, mental, time and space status when a matter currently in the “Closed - For Filing” tray (see relevant entry under 'C') is moved suddenly and without warning into the “Live - For Immediate Action” tray (see relevant entry under 'F' and cross-refer to relevant expletive under same heading).
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
"Just the facts, ma'am!" Yes, AR, I've often wished for more editorial comments from within scripture:
But are they not written in the Book of Jasher? And is it not recorded in the Book of the Wards of the Lord?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
This and following post by Bullfrog prompt me to ask if y'all have seen the animated film, Prince of Egypt? There are some things I don't like but, by and large, a remarkable, evocative film, giving a very legit look at Moses and the exodus.
I haven't seen that one. Honestly, I just made that scene up in my head. There might have been an unconscius Terry Pratchett influence going on...
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
Nigel
Yo Ken - but the Book of the Wards of the Lord doesn't track... is that LDS?
Bullfrog, no question of undue influence, just a certain humorous resonance (although not in this sequence)... In your copious free time ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) you and Gwai might find it a very enjoyable evening.
Now must go watch Stuart Little 2 with my grandkids! The benefit of reproducing really early is relatively young grammyness
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Bullfrog, you're the one who wanted us to revive the Exodus thread, and now you're not playing either!
Selfish reasons here, the reading this morning was a bit further on in Exodus, chapter 16, and I was hoping that someone would know more about some of the names there.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I hope you all continue the paraphrase. I'm enjoying it very much.
I don't have the kind of mind that can do that, but I like others' efforts.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sorry, Nigel for lifting so much of your first verse, but I couldn't work out quite how to follow on staying in theme, without using some of the same stuff.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
I agree! Fun, eh?
I think the name Miriam will cause a problem; it doesn't have a commonly agreed heritage. I opted for "Arum-love" on the basis that it might more readily be Egyptian rather than Hebrew (or other semitic language), but it anyone has a better idea, go for it.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I've heard "bitterness" or even "rebellion," but haven't really researched. FWIW, I have a hard time with all these translations, which is why I rarely participate anymore. I can't keep the players straight without a scorecard--which rather takes the fun out of it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
Blue Letter Bible does show the root of the name as being "rebellion" (news to me) and "Mara" is bitter - the name Naomi takes when she returns to Bethlehem and no longer feels "pleasant"...
Please don't drop out, Lamb Chopped! We can throw in the recognizable names with greater frequency (right, eh? yes yes?) to make sure that people don't forget just who we're talking about.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
It certainly can take some work remembering who's who in the Bible Almanac! I assume there's no particular rule that thou shalt not add nor take away from this book (i.e. one must follow what someone posted before) for fear that one's name however written may be erased from the book of life?
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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