homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Eccles: Latin in the (Anglican) liturgy (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Latin in the (Anglican) liturgy
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147

 - Posted      Profile for sebby   Email sebby   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am aware that the use of the vernacular was, to an extent, a Reformation principle. However, the English Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England allows services to be said in a language understood by the people. At Oxford once a month this has always allowed for a Latin celebration of communion. This takes place at St Mary the Virgin, the University church.

In Anglican cathedrals there are many musical settings and Latin is used quite frequently in anthems and occasional eucharistic settings sung by the choir.

Would any shipmates like to share experiences of Latin in the liturgies of the CofE and other churches of the Anglican Communion, and their thoughts about this?

[ 12. September 2012, 17:58: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

--------------------
sebhyatt

Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At the Church of the Advent of Christ the King in San Francisco there is (or was) a Latin Eucharist every two weeks. They use a translation of the 1979 BCP; Rite I during Advent & Lent, and Rite II the rest of the year.

The choir in my place regularly sings Latin motets for the Offertory or Communion, and very occasionally Latin service music (the Requiem aeternam from Victoria's Missa pro defunctis as Introit on All Souls' Day). At my previous parish, we would use the Missa Orbis Factor (from the Liber Usualis) as the mass setting on Christmas and Easter.

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

 - Posted      Profile for Olaf     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
On several occasions in TEC churches I have encountered the use of Latin for minor propers and the ordinary of mass. I don't mind it, as long as there is a translation provided.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

 - Posted      Profile for Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Email Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Latin settings of the mass ordinary are common in both the CofE and in TEC. It's not difficult for even modestly educated individuals to learn to understand those texts in Latin. I would say that the minor propers in Latin are more challenging, partially because the chant settings make it difficult to discriminate individual words, grammatical inflections, and word order, so that the overall sense of the text becomes very difficult because you can't make it out in the first place, even if you have some Latin capacity. I have pled in other threads for a reduction in the complexity of polyphonic settings so that the Latin text is intelligible. The principle is that the Mass ought to be understanded of the people.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.

--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
manfromcaerdeon
Apprentice
# 16672

 - Posted      Profile for manfromcaerdeon   Email manfromcaerdeon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We seem to have had this conversation, or very similar, fairly recently on here. Check this one out for a regular Latin C of E Mass.

http://www.bmtparish.co.uk/welcome/?page_id=224

Posts: 33 | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

 - Posted      Profile for Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Email Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.

It's important to note that St Silas is one of those CofE Novus Ordo places, so they use the vernacular contemporary RC rite at all their masses except for the Saturday celebration when they use the Latin text of the Novus Ordo.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711

 - Posted      Profile for Liturgylover   Email Liturgylover   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.

AS does All Saints, East Finchley.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711

 - Posted      Profile for Liturgylover   Email Liturgylover   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.

It's important to note that St Silas is one of those CofE Novus Ordo places, so they use the vernacular contemporary RC rite at all their masses except for the Saturday celebration when they use the Latin text of the Novus Ordo.
Interestingly, they have adopted almost, but not quite all of the changes of the new translation.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596

 - Posted      Profile for Ceremoniar   Email Ceremoniar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Anglican Benedictines at Nashdom, UK and at St. Gregory's (Three Rivers, Michigan, US) used Latin for all of the ceremonies until after Vatican II. An associate Episcopal priest was a friend of mine, and he continued to occasionally celebrate Latin Masses privately for many years, which I served. He always did the offertory prayers in Latin.

Later editions of the Knotts Misale Anglicanum contained the Order of Mass in Latin. One of the Contonuing Anglican bodies in the US has recently (2010) published an Anglo-Catholic Book of Common Prayer, which also includes such texts. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BFy0AcGRZo

I have a late 19th century copy of the Book of Common Prayer from Oxford. It is completely in Latin, without any vernacular at all.

My childhood TEC parish sang parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, as other members described above. This practice was revived several years ago under one incumbent, who has since moved on. While he was there, I attended a Latin Requiem Mass in the chapel, which he celebrated for the repose of my grandparents.

I believe this is the church in San Francisco to which an earlier poster made reference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcdfVbKmFkY

[ 19. May 2012, 12:48: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Latin settings of the Ordinary of the mass are now commonplace in C of E cathedrals 'and places where they sing', even in such protestant strongholds as Liverpool. I'm not that au fait with cathedral traditions but I'm sure this is a fairly recent development (well, not until late last century anyway). Does anyone know when this trend started and whether there was any resistance to it?

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898

 - Posted      Profile for otyetsfoma   Email otyetsfoma   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have not noticed any reaction against the use of latin in the CofE, but there was a very strong antagonism to its pronunciation "more romano" by a Cambridge scholar whose name I forget. Anyone remember?
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Latin settings of the Ordinary of the mass are now commonplace in C of E cathedrals 'and places where they sing', even in such protestant strongholds as Liverpool. I'm not that au fait with cathedral traditions but I'm sure this is a fairly recent development (well, not until late last century anyway). Does anyone know when this trend started and whether there was any resistance to it?

I think it started with ASB. Cathedral musicians had complained that the settings to fit Series 3/ICET texts were inferior (I disagree - some of the ghastly, melodramatic Victorian settings were awful).

So ASB had a rubric that allowed other 'versions' of the text, which was probably meant to allow Darke in F and the like.

What we got was an improvement on Victoriana and modern - Byrd, Lobo net al.

Our choir sings some Latin most weeks.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Christina the Astonishing
Apprentice
# 17090

 - Posted      Profile for Christina the Astonishing   Email Christina the Astonishing   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At Exeter Cathedral, Latin is often used for various parts of the liturgy. On the Patronal Feast, (St Peter's Day) Latin is used for prayers such as the Creed and the Gloria. I also remember going to one very High institution where most of the Corpus Christi service was in Latin. I did not study Latin at school and the service lasted an hour and a half. In the last half an hour, I just lost concentration. I congratulated the choir on their mastery of this ancient language. They replied to me that they did not understand it either, and just pronouncced it any old how.
Posts: 4 | From: West Country | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

 - Posted      Profile for churchgeek   Author's homepage   Email churchgeek   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
At the Church of the Advent of Christ the King in San Francisco there is (or was) a Latin Eucharist every two weeks. They use a translation of the 1979 BCP; Rite I during Advent & Lent, and Rite II the rest of the year.

It's still going on. I'm not sure when (I've never been), but I could easily find out. We have brochures for it up in Choir House here at the cathedral.

ETA: There's a schedule on their website that seems to indicate it's on the first Saturday of the month.

[ 19. May 2012, 20:42: Message edited by: churchgeek ]

--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

 - Posted      Profile for Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Email Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Christina the Astonishing:
At Exeter Cathedral, Latin is often used for various parts of the liturgy. On the Patronal Feast, (St Peter's Day) Latin is used for prayers such as the Creed and the Gloria. I also remember going to one very High institution where most of the Corpus Christi service was in Latin. I did not study Latin at school and the service lasted an hour and a half. In the last half an hour, I just lost concentration. I congratulated the choir on their mastery of this ancient language. They replied to me that they did not understand it either, and just pronouncced it any old how.

Latin is NOT to be pronounced "any old how"! Ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation is quite standardised and is basically like the pronunciation of Italian in its conventions. It is emphatically not pronunced in the manner of classical Latin, such as one normally learns at school if studying Latin. Further, the meaning of the texts of the mass ordinary shouldn't be mysterious to any modestly literate person. First, if you've had the slightest introduction to Latin at school, you will grasp the basic point of the inflections, or endings, of nouns, pronouns and adjectives. Any study of the modern Romance languages will help tremendously, as well, as would a history of fairly traditional instruction in English, emphasising the Latin roots and derivations of various English words. Finally, a comparison of the English and Latin texts of the ordinary of the mass will also tend to reveal the meaning of what one is singing or hearing, especially in combination with the aforementioned aids to an understanding of the Latin mass text.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453

 - Posted      Profile for Metapelagius   Email Metapelagius   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
At Oxford once a month this has always allowed for a Latin celebration of communion. This takes place at St Mary the Virgin, the University church.

Would any shipmates like to share experiences of Latin in the liturgies of the CofE and other churches of the Anglican Communion, and their thoughts about this?

Not monthly, only termly - on the morning of the Thursday before full term. There is also the Latin Litany and Sermon early in Hilary Term -
quote:
Nothing like this would be found anywhere else in the world.
MW report 468

Quite so - they may have replaced them by now, but when I attended this some years ago the service books still had in the prayers for the royal family mention of the Queen - not Elizabeth II, but Victoria, of course. Used only once a year, they wouldn't wear out, I suppose.

--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779

 - Posted      Profile for Antiphon   Email Antiphon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think that until fairly recently a Novus Ordo Latin mass was said at the church of St John the Baptist, Holland Road, in West London, but I have a feeling that this is no longer the case.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The provision of BCP services in Latin dates from the days when scholars still used it rather like Esperanto, as an international spoken language. As late as the mid-eighteenth century, Robert Lowth published his seminal work on Hebrew poetry in Latin. Even then, though, the pronunciation English speakers of Latin used would probably have made their speech incomprehensible to most continentals.

I doubt sufficient serious Latin speakers now attend any services even in Oxford that continuing to have services in it is anything other than an affectation.

It strikes me as obvious that continuing the practice is contrary to the spirit, and probably now the letter, of the Articles.

There was recently discussion on the Ship about CofE parishes in London using the Roman form of the mass in place of Common Worship. I agree with their Bishop's view on this. That discussion at least assumed they were using the Roman form in English - as do most RC congregations unless they are using Polish. Using the Roman form in Latin seems even more indefensible.

I can see a smidgeon of an excuse for sticking with Latin for choral bits that are sung only by the choir, provided - and I would say provided ONLY - that an English translation really cannot be fitted to the metre of the music. Otherwise, it goes with the sort of snobbery that insists that 'Of course, my dear, we only sing Silent Night in German', and disdains those of us who like surtitles at the opera.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
As many shipmates well know, St. Silas' Kentish Town north London, is renowned for the use of Latin. As far as I know, a Mass in Latin is said there on a Saturday.

It's important to note that St Silas is one of those CofE Novus Ordo places, so they use the vernacular contemporary RC rite at all their masses except for the Saturday celebration when they use the Latin text of the Novus Ordo.
Interestingly, they have adopted almost, but not quite all of the changes of the new translation.
Though I did not say so, I am aware of the use of the new English translation at St. Silas'. This is in spite of (or even because of!) the Bishop of London's request that it should not be used at Anglican churches within his Diocese, in which St. Silas' is situated.

--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mockingbird

Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818

 - Posted      Profile for Mockingbird   Author's homepage   Email Mockingbird   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Preface to the 1549 BCP had the following:
quote:
Though it be appointed in the afore written preface, that all things shall be read and sung in the church in the English tongue, to the end that the congregation may be thereby edified: yet it is not meant, but when men say Matins and Evensong privately, they may say the same in any language that they themselves do understand.
Strictly interpreted this applies to (a) private rectations only of (b) Morning and Evening Prayer, and no other rites. But in practice, the BCP was soon translated into Latin, presumably for use at Universities and by others who wanted a Latin rite and were able to get away with it.

--------------------
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443

 - Posted      Profile for CorgiGreta         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is a Latin Vigil Mass every Saturday at St. Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood.
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Are there many Latin speakers in Hollywood?

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

 - Posted      Profile for Mamacita   Email Mamacita   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Mel Gibson?

--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533

 - Posted      Profile for Pancho   Author's homepage   Email Pancho   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Are there many Latin speakers in Hollywood?

Well, since Spanish is a modern dialect of Latin, quite a few actually....

A couple of months ago there was an immersion weekend for the living Latin movement at the Getty Villa in Malibu, not that far from Hollywood: look here!

--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
disdains those of us who like surtitles at the opera.

I need surtitles (even at the ENO). But I never look at the service book at my church (except for the text of the creed) as I know all the bits I need to say by heart.

Therefore, if the common of the mass is sung in Latin, I know what the words are.

We have an ambitious choir which frequently sings Latin mass settings. The trebles (boys and girls) come in a large part from a nearby state school on the edge of a estate, which is (visibly) very mixed ethnically. They appear to have no complaints at singing in Latin.

Since there are forty home languages for the pupils of that school, their parents may have difficulty understanding what is said in English in the any case.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

Since there are forty home languages for the pupils of that school, their parents may have difficulty understanding what is said in English in the any case.

That's an interesting point. The Taizé community uses a lot of Latin, not because native Latin speakers are common there, but because it is, and attracts, an international and multilingual community. Latin is a way of transcending some of these differences, as it was in the medieval Catholic church. The balance has rightly swung, since the Reformation and Vatican 2, towards 'being understanded of the people'; but that can play into a chauvinistic 'little-Englandism' (or any other nationalism) which the C of E has often been prone to.
Even if a congregation is uniformly anglophone, the occasional use of Latin (or any other language I suppose) helps to demonstrate our awareness of the wider church and world. If, as in venbede's example and in many urban areas today, the congregation is less homogeneous, there is even more reason to do so.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404

 - Posted      Profile for Ahleal V     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think that Latin (Anglican) services are more common in Oxford than in Cambridge, but, as far as I know, the Chaplain of Caius does a Latin BCP service around the occasion of her birthday each year.

This year it falls on 11th of June at 8:15 am (St Barnabas' Day).

AV

Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220

 - Posted      Profile for Corvo   Email Corvo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
The Preface to the 1549 BCP had the following:
quote:
Though it be appointed in the afore written preface, that all things shall be read and sung in the church in the English tongue, to the end that the congregation may be thereby edified: yet it is not meant, but when men say Matins and Evensong privately, they may say the same in any language that they themselves do understand.
Strictly interpreted this applies to (a) private rectations only of (b) Morning and Evening Prayer, and no other rites. But in practice, the BCP was soon translated into Latin, presumably for use at Universities and by others who wanted a Latin rite and were able to get away with it.
That was in 1549, today Canon B42 states

Authorized forms of service may be said or sung in Latin in the following places -

Provincial Convocations

Chapels and other public places in university colleges and halls

University churches

The colleges of Westminster, Winchester and Eton

Such other places of religious and sound learning as custom allows or the bishop or other the Ordinary may permit

Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

 - Posted      Profile for The Scrumpmeister   Author's homepage   Email The Scrumpmeister   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The Taizé community uses a lot of Latin, not because native Latin speakers are common there, but because it is, and attracts, an international and multilingual community. Latin is a way of transcending some of these differences, as it was in the medieval Catholic church. The balance has rightly swung, since the Reformation and Vatican 2, towards 'being understanded of the people'; but that can play into a chauvinistic 'little-Englandism' (or any other nationalism) which the C of E has often been prone to.

Not just the C of E either. [Frown]

--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

 - Posted      Profile for Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Email Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
There is a Latin Vigil Mass every Saturday at St. Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood.

While this Mass uses the Latin translation of the 1979 BCP, it includes some very unusual placement of bits of the liturgy (general confession after the Kyrie and before the Gloria), rather odd variations of the manual gestures, some bowing in places that genuflections would be more typical for Anglo-Catholics, and unusual times of facing liturgical West rather than East. I'm wondering if the ceremonial is Sarum/Dearmer-inspired or just completely idiosyncratic. Does anyone have any insights about this? Note: you need to watch the entire Mass to get the fullest impression of things -- it is spread over four separate youtube videos.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Swick
Shipmate
# 8773

 - Posted      Profile for Swick   Email Swick       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We frequently have anthems and motets in Latin, and often in German, with the English translation always being provided.
Posts: 197 | From: Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453

 - Posted      Profile for Metapelagius   Email Metapelagius   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
I think that Latin (Anglican) services are more common in Oxford than in Cambridge, but, as far as I know, the Chaplain of Caius does a Latin BCP service around the occasion of her birthday each year.

This year it falls on 11th of June at 8:15 am (St Barnabas' Day).

AV

Ah, but is Dr Hammond not an Oxford classics graduate?

--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
One person used to worshiping in a language other than his vernacular was our blessed Lord himself, if he spoke Aramaic daily. I believe Hebrew was no longer a demotic language by his lifetime.

(I'm no enthusiast for using artificially archaic language, like the C of E Rite B sprinkling thees and thous all over the place. On the other hand, most people have managed to worship in non-contemporary languages through the ages, eg Sanskrit, Hebrew, Classical Arabic, Old Church Slavonic, Byzantine and Koine Greek, Jacobean English, and so on..._)

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

 - Posted      Profile for Augustine the Aleut     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
I have not noticed any reaction against the use of latin in the CofE, but there was a very strong antagonism to its pronunciation "more romano" by a Cambridge scholar whose name I forget. Anyone remember?

This is still a topic of difference among Latin-speakers-- of the three I know, the younger two (veterans of Latin camp somewhere in Wisconsin where adolescents perform pieces, play games, and interact in Latin) use ecclesiastical prounciation, but the third is a hard-c nazi. A retired clerical friend told me of watching the Anglican Church of Canada's two clerical Latin speakers in the late 1960s (Eugene Fairweather and Carmino de Catanzaro) hold a heated argument on this, in Latin of course. I don't know of any living ACC clerics who can speak Latin, but I am open to correction on this.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
PD
Shipmate
# 12436

 - Posted      Profile for PD   Author's homepage   Email PD   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I grew up in an environment where Latin was used for the Gloria, etc. on a fairly regular basis, but the rest of the Mass was in English. No-one seemed to mind too much if the Kyrie was in Greek and the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus-Benedictus and Agnus Dei were in Latin provided it was not done too often.

On the whole. I really do not mind Latin for the fixed portions of the Mass and Office, but rather resent it when those parts which change daily are in the Latin rather than the Vulgar tongue. However, I am a bit odd like that.

PD

--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!

My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com

Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Re pronunciation - hard or soft C etc. - I thought i depended on whether the speaker had been from Oxford or Cambridge. Or whether his Latin teacher had.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965

 - Posted      Profile for Basilica   Email Basilica   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re pronunciation - hard or soft C etc. - I thought i depended on whether the speaker had been from Oxford or Cambridge. Or whether his Latin teacher had.

In my experience, the Oxford-Cambridge distinction is more about the pronunciation of v: is it a hard v sound or a soft w sound. I've never heard anyone classically trained pronounce classical Latin with a soft c.

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
On the whole. I really do not mind Latin for the fixed portions of the Mass and Office, but rather resent it when those parts which change daily are in the Latin rather than the Vulgar tongue. However, I am a bit odd like that.

I entirely agree with this. Actually, I could say much the same about singing texts: if they are the same every time, singing them can give new meaning. If they change, then it can be difficult to concentrate on what the words actually are and to get even the basic meaning.

[ 22. May 2012, 17:07: Message edited by: Basilica ]

Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

 - Posted      Profile for Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Email Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re pronunciation - hard or soft C etc. - I thought i depended on whether the speaker had been from Oxford or Cambridge. Or whether his Latin teacher had.

AFAIK, in America classical Latin is always pronounced with hard C and G,and with a V that is sounded as a W. By contrast, on this side of the pond, ecclesiastical Latin is correctly pronounced - invariably AFAIK - with various Italianate conventions, including soft G, C often have the Ch- sound, and the gn- combination being pronounced as a softened N with a Y consonant sound attaching to the N (this varies somewhat, as one does hear a hard G pronunciation some places of words like "Agnus", though it is more often pronunced as "Anyus").
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
PD
Shipmate
# 12436

 - Posted      Profile for PD   Author's homepage   Email PD   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re pronunciation - hard or soft C etc. - I thought i depended on whether the speaker had been from Oxford or Cambridge. Or whether his Latin teacher had.

In my experience, the Oxford-Cambridge distinction is more about the pronunciation of v: is it a hard v sound or a soft w sound. I've never heard anyone classically trained pronounce classical Latin with a soft c.

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
On the whole. I really do not mind Latin for the fixed portions of the Mass and Office, but rather resent it when those parts which change daily are in the Latin rather than the Vulgar tongue. However, I am a bit odd like that.

I entirely agree with this. Actually, I could say much the same about singing texts: if they are the same every time, singing them can give new meaning. If they change, then it can be difficult to concentrate on what the words actually are and to get even the basic meaning.

Can't remember where our Latin teacher went to Varsity, but hard-v was the one true faith so far as he was concerned.

PD

--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!

My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com

Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There's at least four pronunciations of Latin. AFAIK nobody really knows how the Romans pronounced it. There's no tapes or CDs from that era.

Typically, old English pronunciation, Caesar pronounced as in English, i.e. Seezar, sine die pronounced seiny die. Amavi pronounced amayvy; jam spelt and pronounced jam. Except among lawyers, this was gradually superseded in the first half of the C20.

English public school pronunciation. Caesar pronounced Kaiser as German emperor; sine die pronounced sinny dee-ay'; amavi pronounced amahvi; iam pronounced yam.

A lot of classicists, more or less as above except that amavi is pronounced amahwi.

RC Church Latin. I know less about this but more like Italian, so Caesar is more likely to be Chesare. Not sure how the others are except possible seeny dee-ay and something more like amahphi.

Incidentally, I believe Greeks pronounce classical and Biblical Greek in the same way as they speak Modern Greek.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

 - Posted      Profile for Triple Tiara   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
RC Church latin has regional variations. It's a myth to imagine there is just one ecclesiastical pronunciation. The Germans sound very distinctive when articulating latin, and so do the French. Listen to the Pope and you will get the idea. For example the Germans: qui pronounced kvi, caelis pronounced tsaylees, regina pronounced
regg-ee-na rather than re-jee-na.

--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I once heard a reconstruction of a mass from medieval France, and what struck me was the extremely French pronunciation of the 'u' sounds (more like 'ee'). I have no idea whether this is still French pronunciation of Latin.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I once heard a reconstruction of a mass from medieval France, and what struck me was the extremely French pronunciation of the 'u' sounds (more like 'ee'). I have no idea whether this is still French pronunciation of Latin.

I'm inclined to give non-Italians some leeway when it comes to singing in Latin. What I've never quite understood is the Historical Reconstruction movement in early music which seeks to replace every possible choice open to the performer with The Way They Done It Back Then.

I was once in a small chorus which performed some excerpts from Isaac's Choralis Constantinus. The unfortunate decision was taken to perform them in Germanic Latin pronunciation, and so much energy was devoted to getting the proper "sp" lisp, the correctly brightened vowel sounds, and so on that there wasn't much time to make music out of the damn thing.

Richard Taruskin is correct. Either a work is worth doing as part of a living performance practice, or it should be left on the shelf. Historically-informed performance is worthwhile only as far as it avoids getting caught up in minutiae; music is not a matter of ticking off boxes.

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Then there's the legal word "certiorari". Lawyers pronounce that as "sershorayi" At school we used what was called New Pronunciation, and is what I think Enoch calls public school pronunciation. Certiorari would be pronounced 'kerteeorarree". To use that in court would be as bad a solecism as pronouncing Theobald as it is written.

Back to the OP. When our choir sings a Mass in Latin, the service sheets for the day will have the Latin in one column and a line-by-line translation into English in another. Let's face it: there is an even smaller proportion of the population now who could follow the Latin than there was when the Masses were written. Better to adopt this course than to mangle an English translation to fit the music. It allows the congregation properly to worship.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

 - Posted      Profile for Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Email Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Legal Latin is a creature unto itself. The way lawyers and legislators and judges pronounce that set of terms seems to be the same across the Anglospere and completely idiosyncratic to their profession.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

 - Posted      Profile for Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Email Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I once heard a reconstruction of a mass from medieval France, and what struck me was the extremely French pronunciation of the 'u' sounds (more like 'ee'). I have no idea whether this is still French pronunciation of Latin.

In America the one correct form conforms to Italian conventions. I agree that French ecclesiastical Latin sounds French in terms of accent though I never noticed an actual difference in the formall pronunciation conventions. What those in the barbarian realms to the north may do I know not. I do know that Lithuanian Latin pronunciation was correct as far as I could ever detect, actually.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533

 - Posted      Profile for Pancho   Author's homepage   Email Pancho   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know that one point early in the 20th century there was a document that standardized the Latin pronunciation in the Church according to the Italian style, and the instructions in the Liber Usualis follow this pronunciation, but as Triple Tiara points out in practice there are still regional variations, and even the Pope uses a German-style pronunciation.

In classical-style pronunciation the consonants are pronounced more or less like in English, "C" and "G" are always hard, "U" is sometimes a vowel and sometimes like a "W", and there's a distinction between short and long vowels, among other things. As a native Romance speaker, the short/long vowel distinction always feels kind of awkward to me.

--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Legal Latin is a creature unto itself. The way lawyers and legislators and judges pronounce that set of terms seems to be the same across the Anglospere and completely idiosyncratic to their profession.

AIUI, legal Latin is the old pronunciation as used in anglophone countries (at least) until about 1900. It's very similar to old church Latin.

A mistype in my earlier post: the pronunciation of certiorari should have been sersheorareai. I've forgotten how to write in linguistic characters, but it is close on 50 years since I studied them. In any event, I don't know that they are available in UBB, and I'll stick to that excuse for not using them.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ogre
Shipmate
# 4601

 - Posted      Profile for Ogre   Author's homepage         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
All parts of the CofE, of whatever churchmanship, seem to have kept the Latin titles for the psalms and canticles; for example they are announced as the 'Magnificat', the 'Te Deum', etc. [Votive]

--------------------
Pete Ergo Religionem

['Therefore Seek a Way of Life']

Posts: 480 | From: West Midlands, UK | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools