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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Ancient Mariner, media tart
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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As I said in this post [slightly edited from the original]

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Ancient Mariner:
In answer to the question of “tipping off” The Times, we appreciate your concerns and are happy to respond…

When a Ship of Fools feature, with genuine news value, is about to be published we usually issue a general press release to several hundred newsrooms, worldwide, in one go. It's a list built over many years through the PR consultancy I run. We (Ship of Fools H&A) deemed the Cosmo/Fr Peters issue more complicated and sensitive.

I think that is absolutely disgusting, for what it is worth. One thing to publicly expose someone, quite another to be touting it to gain extra exposure for the ship. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself you pathetic excuse for a human being.

quote:
From the outset we figured this story was likely to appear beyond the bounds of Ship of Fools. That agreed, it was important to try to ensure it was covered correctly – requiring a skilled reporter with genuine theological nous and proven track record in covering contentious issues. In this scenario, it is better the journalist you know than the newsroom you don't. By working with one paper only, you are likely to get better, fuller treatment – and it spikes the guns of other media you would rather not cover it.

So we made Ruth aware that the story was brewing. Had we not done so it is likely to have been picked up direct from the site by less responsible media – and taken beyond our control. On past record, we considered Ruth would handle it sympathetically and go into some depth, rather than simply pick out the controversial aspects.

This is the same Ruth Gledhill who some people might suggest has perpectuated some very poor reporting in the past. The same reporter some of us spent a considerable time dissecting a totally bullshit report she wrote regarding an academic journal article which was also complete gibberish. Others may not remember this story, but here
is an exposure of the statistics involved by someone who knows what they are talking about.

Some may describe Ms Gledhill as skilled reporter with genuine theological nous . I would describe her as a totally gutless reporter who extracts meaningless reports from intellectual and internet backwaters and blows them out of all proportion into something approaching newscopy in The Times.

quote:
We are pleased with the outcome, in that Ruth’s blog gave the issue a good airing. In fact, she was more than sympathetic to Fr Peters. Her own disappointment was that The Times cut the story for its print edition - but that was beyond her control.
Well that is marvellous, AM. Absolutely fantastic. I bet you got a lot of good hits out of it didn't you. I guess we don't have to look far to see where your priorities are in this incident. I think it is high time your media savvy-ness is held to account on these boards.

quote:
For the past eight years we have tried to be resourceful, from a media point of view. It doesn’t always work the way we want but we always try to get the best result – sometimes in trying, difficult circumstances.

That is total bullshit.

C

<small>[ 11. October 2006, 08:16: Message edited on a spaz of: mr cheesy ]</small>

[ 04. April 2007, 12:25: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]

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arse

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David
Complete Bastard
# 3

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The Ship is the media, you dickwit.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by David:
The Ship is the media, you dickwit.

Oh right, that explains and validates everything.

The Far-right News, Anti-semitism Today, Bullshit Weekly, and Naturism Standard might also be the media. So what?

C

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arse

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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
The Ship is the media, you dickwit.

Oh right, that explains and validates everything.

The Far-right News, Anti-semitism Today, Bullshit Weekly, and Naturism Standard might also be the media. So what?

C

Cheesy, the point is that the Ship is read regularly by many journalists precisely because it often makes a news story. It was absolutely inevitable that the Cosmo story would be picked up. Ancient Mariner's actions in alerting Ruth Gledhill were not aimed at maximising media impact but minimising it. Hopefully the story is pretty much dead now that it has been covered by The Times (editors are obsessed with exclusives)- furthermore the way he did it gained the most favourable coverage that could be expected for both the Ship and Cosmo himself. All in all, AM made a good call and got it right.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Cheesy, the point is that the Ship is read regularly by many journalists precisely because it often makes a news story. It was absolutely inevitable that the Cosmo story would be picked up. Ancient Mariner's actions in alerting Ruth Gledhill were not aimed at maximising media impact but minimising it. Hopefully the story is pretty much dead now that it has been covered by The Times (editors are obsessed with exclusives)- furthermore the way he did it gained the most favourable coverage that could be expected for both the Ship and Cosmo himself. All in all, AM made a good call and got it right.

Oh right, silly me. Leaking to the press is designed to reduce publicity not increase it.

Nobody actually reads the Times or takes any account of Gledhill's reports, after all.

Reducing publicity would involve a) not speaking or leaking stuff to the press b) not giving quotes on a plate to the press c) refusing to co-operate with the press beyond that which is said on this website.

Yes, the story would probably get out anyway, but it is more likely to be along the lines of 'x priest recently had to apologise due to allegations on a website' rather than mentioning SoF and/or having quotations from the founders.

C

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arse

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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I agree the story is almost certainly dead buried and forgotten aobut except for the vague possibility of hitting the news round up in the church papers but even that I doubt. Almost the only way of resurrecting the story is if Fr Peter’s says something about it publicly or the local press go round interviewing parishioners.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh right, silly me. Leaking to the press is designed to reduce publicity not increase it.

It can indeed have that effect. When people know that a story is about to hit the news, the best course of action can be to get the facts out in the open as soon as possible. When people feel that when they have the pertinent information before them they are less likely to ask more questions or go on a dirt digging expedition.
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh right, silly me. Leaking to the press is designed to reduce publicity not increase it.

Yes, basic news management skills.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh right, silly me. Leaking to the press is designed to reduce publicity not increase it.

Absolutely. That is why the government does it so regularly, to manage the publicity that happens.

This has ended up being a fairly minor ecclesiological matter, where a vicar has behaved badly and been caught out. It is so much better than the alternative headline, as I posted in the Styx, of "Hated vicar fraud".

It is not that no-one reads Ruth Gledhill columns. It is just that those who do are more likely to treat it as it should be treated, not blow it up out of all proportion. There is so much potential material in this, most of which is now irrelevant because the Times has covered it.

AM knows how to deal with the media. From what I have seen of him in my time on the ship, he knows that exceedingly well, and has done a remarkable job over the years of dealing with the media very well.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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Cheesy are you being deliberately obtuse?

Okay here's what we know from Ancient Mariner:

1. In preparation, for the Cosmo story being published on Ship of Fools a discussion has to take place about the PR dimensions of the story.
2. It's clear that the story will be picked up, so some decisions have to be made.
3. A press release is ruled out immediately for obvious reasons.
4. AM suggests briefing one particular journalist to hopefully gain balanced and sympathetic coverage (he wants to avoid a hit on the reputation of Mystery Worshipper and a flurry of washing Cosmo's dirty linen in public).
5. He knows at the same time that the likely effect of such an advanced briefing is to reduce the take-up of the story by other journalists.
6. He also knows that this way the Ship has the best chance of having some kind of control over events.
7. So he makes a phone call to Ruth, sends her an email with the SOF copy and hey presto things pan out pretty much as expected. Happily, Ruth even deals with Cosmo much more sympathetically than he could have had a right to suspect (and AM's briefing may also have had something to do with that).

This way of handling things was realistic, pragmatic and ultimately the kindest option for Cosmo. It was certainly not sinister and vindictive.

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Ancient Mariner

Sip the ship
# 4

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I've never been called to Hell before - a badge of dishonour which I can now proudly unpin.

I'm happy for my 'media-savvyness to be held to account', mr cheesy. I wonder how you first heard about this community? It certainly won't have been through publicity generated by a fabulous marketing spend. In eight years we have never spent a single penny, IIRC, on external advertising. Why's that? Possibly because less than 100 board members contributed anything to keep these boards open in one recent 12-month period.

So, without guaranteed revenue streams, our only option is to make the most of our skills in publishing, design, journalism and PR. You may be one of those who discovered Ship of Fools through the personal recommendation of a friend. Many do. But chase the line back and you will soon discover the prime mover probably read a piece in a national paper, heard us on the radio, saw a Mystery Worshipper report of their church - something of the like.

Mostly we put witty, informative, ironic stories out to the media. On this occasion it was an internal issue which had to be aired. For the sake of transparency and the credibility of one of our flagship projects, which had been abused in print, we decided the matter could not be dealt with behind closed doors. We, who live by the oxygen of publicity must, at some time, be prepared to suffocate through it.

You may disagree with our approach but be very careful what names you call me. Your very presence on these boards may be because I put on the big hair, flashed those long lashes and seduced Ruth Gledhill into splashing Ship of Fools across the front page of The Times.

[ 11. October 2006, 10:02: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]

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Ship of Fools' first novel, Rattles & Rosettes, is the tale of two football (soccer) fans: 16-year-old Tom in 1914 and Dan in 2010. More at www.rattlesandrosettes.com

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fight-club for the soul
Shipmate
# 11098

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Cheesy, your ass-hattedness knows no bounds. Admit that you are developmentally challenged when it comes to your understanding of managing the media and leave it be hmmm?

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"If I go they'll say I'm wrong, if I stay there'll be no song." - Delirious

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:
This way of handling things was realistic, pragmatic and ultimately the kindest option for Cosmo. It was certainly not sinister and vindictive.
This is both concise and accurate. I think part of the agonised reaction this has caused is the unstated assumption that anything Christian is synonymous with lovable amateurism. In this instance the Powers That Be have behaved with consummate professionalism. I would ask those who think that they have behaved badly what sort of column inches they think this would have generated if the Ship had contented themselves with banning Cosmo, editing the offending reports and changing the MW policy when the media had got a sniff of the fact that Cosmo had MW'd himself and the Ship had covered it up. And then to ask themselves whether this coverage would have benefitted either the Ship or Cosmo.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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And it wouldn't have been more direct or honest to have made it clear from the outset that the story had been fed to Gledhill?

Why, when speculation was rife about whether RG had found the story on her own, was no clarification issued that she was fed it? Especially since the balance of opinion on the Styx thread seemed to be that she probably had found it herself and that it was a bit unfair to accuse the Ship of having fed it to her.

Now that wasn't too "savvy", was it?

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Ancient Mariner, your only explanation and justification for your behaviour appears to be that the oxygen of publicity draws people to the Ship.

As we are not talking about the publicity involved in a blow-up church, an online beauty contest, or a snazzy pair of Jesus underpants, I frankly fail to see how that is at all relevant.

Not content to publicly name and shame an offender, you deem it necessary to publicise the fact in a national newspaper. Yes, they may well have found it themselves. But they didn't need to as you have already given them the story.

This has nothing to do with how I or anyone else came to be on this website.

C

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arse

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
. Yes, they may well have found it themselves.

If they had found it by themselves it could have been any religious correspondent who could have spun the story completely differently. You must really hate Cosmo to wish that to have happened.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Flausa

Mad Woman
# 3466

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quote:
Originally posted by fight-club for the soul:
Cheesy, your ass-hattedness knows no bounds.

I'm just quoting this because I thought it was worth repeating.
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
And it wouldn't have been more direct or honest to have made it clear from the outset that the story had been fed to Gledhill?

I think I agree with this.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
And it wouldn't have been more direct or honest to have made it clear from the outset that the story had been fed to Gledhill?

I think I agree with this.
Even a stopped clock gets the time right twice a day, I suppose. [Biased]

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Flausa:
quote:
Originally posted by fight-club for the soul:
Cheesy, your ass-hattedness knows no bounds.

I'm just quoting this because I thought it was worth repeating.
Thanks.

Meanwhile it appears in SoF-land that it is entirely reasonable to give your private details to the press.

Are we to expect an expose of the Archbishop who is a member of Freedom and Song? Ministers who are struggling with mental health issues or (horror of horrors) might actually be gay?

Seems to me that there is a great deal of rewriting-as-we-go-along going on here.

No, don't tell me. It was for his own good.

C

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arse

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:

quote:
And it wouldn't have been more direct or honest to have made it clear from the outset that the story had been fed to Gledhill?
I honestly don't know. It strikes me that there was rather a lot of shocks to absorb in the initial announcement.

Cosmo's been fibbing - BAM!
Cosmo's been banned - BAM!
We have, for the firt time ever, decided to out a shipmate - BAM!
Oh, by the way we've shopped him to the Times - BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!

I think if Erin's OP had mentioned the Ruth Gledhill thing the Editors and Admins wouldn't have got a hearing. Unless you think that the Es and As have a duty to tell us everything about the running of the site I think there was a case for withholding that information. Whether they should, with hindsight, have kept shtumm as long as they did is another question. But my contention is not that the Editors and Admins are perfect. Merely that they played a bad hand of cards as best they could. I am struggling to think of a different response that would have had better results for all concerned.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Meanwhile it appears in SoF-land that it is entirely reasonable to give your private details to the press.

Are we to expect an expose of the Archbishop who is a member of Freedom and Song? Ministers who are struggling with mental health issues or (horror of horrors) might actually be gay?

Seems to me that there is a great deal of rewriting-as-we-go-along going on here.

No, don't tell me. It was for his own good.

C

I think you have got this wrong here. I don't think that the admins consider it entirely reasonable as they state that this is a one-off kind of situation. You are over reacting.

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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.

If only.

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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Meanwhile it appears in SoF-land that it is entirely reasonable to give your private details to the press...

No, don't tell me. It was for his own good.

C

Cheesy, I'm struggling to understand where you're coming from. For the first few pages of the Styx thread you appeared to support the actions that the Admins had taken in fully and frankly disclosing the chain of events which had led to compromising the Mystery Worshipper and the banning of Cosmo and the sockpuppets from the Bulletin Board. It was this openness in the article which revealed who Cosmo really was to the whole world - including the media. Ancient Mariner's efforts to contain the news story are an entirely secondary matter to the decision the Admins had already made on full disclosure.

Finally, your sarky comment about it being for Cosmo's own good. His behaviour has not been to anyone's good, not least his decision to slink away into the night without an apology to the Ship, or the Bulletin Boards.

So any outcomes we're talking about are to do with damage limitation - the least bad options. Please try to stop blowing things out of proportion.

Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stevie Boy Wonder
Shipmate
# 11869

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I've tried to avoid putting my opinion of the admins' actions too strongly until now, but sod it, I can't be bothered any more. I think they've done the right thing overall, and handled a complex situation in the most dignified manner they could.

My only gripe is this issue of Ruth Gledhill's involvement being mentioned so late in proceedings. Mr Cheesy, LynnMagdalenCollege, Nightlamp and myself all jumped to the Ship's defence when mutters started going round suggesting RG had some insider information above and beyond what she could have gleaned fom the site itself. It wasn't until Chesterbelloc asked the question, "Was Ruth Gledhill tipped off by anyone at SoF?" several hours later, that we found out we'd been defending against entirely accurate accusations.

I reiterate: I think the admins did the best they could with the actual handling of how the news was presented to the "outside world". But I think they've left a few of us feeling rather stupid and a little less keen to defend them in future.

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Jesus saves. But in the current economic climate, His pension probably won't be enough for eternity...

Also by the same author

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Cheesy, I'm struggling to understand where you're coming from. For the first few pages of the Styx thread you appeared to support the actions that the Admins had taken in fully and frankly disclosing the chain of events which had led to compromising the Mystery Worshipper and the banning of Cosmo and the sockpuppets from the Bulletin Board. It was this openness in the article which revealed who Cosmo really was to the whole world - including the media. Ancient Mariner's efforts to contain the news story are an entirely secondary matter to the decision the Admins had already made on full disclosure.

I agree. Hence I am complaining about the latter not the former. I accept that the Hosts and Admins probably did the best in a bad situation.

I think releasing personal information to the press is entirely wrong.

quote:
Finally, your sarky comment about it being for Cosmo's own good. His behaviour has not been to anyone's good, not least his decision to slink away into the night without an apology to the Ship, or the Bulletin Boards.
Others have expressed the view that this release to the media was kind for Cosmo. Not me.

quote:

So any outcomes we're talking about are to do with damage limitation - the least bad options. Please try to stop blowing things out of proportion.

I agree. But I think that if a person's personal information is released outwith of the ship, this forms a dangerous precedent. Please stop trying to tell me what I should think on something I feel strongly about.

C

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arse

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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I agree. But I think that if a person's personal information is released outwith of the ship, this forms a dangerous precedent. Please stop trying to tell me what I should think on something I feel strongly about.

C

So you think there is a difference between publishing something on a public webzine and releasing information 'outwith of the Ship'? That is scarcely credible.

I am not trying to tell you what you should think on something you feel strongly about. I am disagreeing with you.

Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by Stevie Boy Wonder:
My only gripe is this issue of Ruth Gledhill's involvement being mentioned so late in proceedings. Mr Cheesy, LynnMagdalenCollege, Nightlamp and myself all jumped to the Ship's defence when mutters started going round suggesting RG had some insider information above and beyond what she could have gleaned fom the site itself. It wasn't until Chesterbelloc asked the question, "Was Ruth Gledhill tipped off by anyone at SoF?" several hours later, that we found out we'd been defending against entirely accurate accusations.

I reiterate: I think the admins did the best they could with the actual handling of how the news was presented to the "outside world". But I think they've left a few of us feeling rather stupid and a little less keen to defend them in future.

See, that's my impression of it all too. I accept (with Callan) that it's been difficult for the Es and As in the past few days, but it was something they could and should easily have cleared up at least as soon as the issue was raised on the Styx thread even if not from the very outset. If it was going to cause them flack to admit they'd done it, then they would just have to have explained it the way they later did - why not trust us when it was raised to react reasonably?

Oh, and there's the small fact that IngoB's been banned from hosting his own private board because he dared to speculate about the relative importance to the Es and As of the SoF magazine project to the boards. See here.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I agree. But I think that if a person's personal information is released outwith of the ship, this forms a dangerous precedent. Please stop trying to tell me what I should think on something I feel strongly about.

C

So you think there is a difference between publishing something on a public webzine and releasing information 'outwith of the Ship'? That is scarcely credible.

I am not trying to tell you what you should think on something you feel strongly about. I am disagreeing with you.

Surely it is clear that a whole range of people would read an article in the Times that would never see it on this website (or any of the blogs that quote from it). Many of the parishioners in question, for example, may not be online yet may read the paper. This is obvious to anyone.

C

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arse

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Ancient Mariner

Sip the ship
# 4

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As it was my call, I apologise for being slow off the mark in response to the original request for information re: The Times' article and any embarrassment it may have caused.

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Ship of Fools' first novel, Rattles & Rosettes, is the tale of two football (soccer) fans: 16-year-old Tom in 1914 and Dan in 2010. More at www.rattlesandrosettes.com

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Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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Thank you, AM.

It did, I'm afraid, look as if you were hoping the whole thing would drop without the question being asked, and I think that is part of the reason why people are pissed about it.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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Melon

Ship's desserter
# 4038

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Many of the parishioners in question, for example, may not be online yet may read the paper. This is obvious to anyone.

Are these the parishioners to whom Fr Peters gave the church newsletter including the faked Mystery Worshipper review? The only person playing at media manipulation here was Fr Peters. Unfortunately for him, it turned out that an excellent singing voice and a pool of cosmophants did not guarantee success at media manipulation.

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French Whine

Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Surely it is clear that a whole range of people would read an article in the Times that would never see it on this website (or any of the blogs that quote from it). Many of the parishioners in question, for example, may not be online yet may read the paper.

So. Fucking. What.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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Cheesy, I'm really puzzled by all this. Let me try to express the problem, as I see it. Whenever a thread gets started with more than a tangential connection to the Holy Land, you seem to be keen to get involved and share your first-hand knowledge. That's fine, and I find it often helps to ground the discussion in real details. In fact, you often object when people without your level of experience dismiss your comments, because you feel your personal experience gives your considered opinion more weight. Fair enough?

What you now seem to be doing, however, is arguing that even though every shipmate with any degree of media experience seems to be in agreement that this was the best course of action to minimise the damage to all parties, nevertheless you know better, and think it would have been better to just leave the Bullshipper story sitting on the front page (presumably in the hope that no one would read it), and that experience in this case counts for nothing at all.

Is that about the size of it?

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Well, TGG, you are right enough that I have least experience of media relations.

But to me the accusation that if nothing had been leaked then the situation would have been worse is a non-argument.

It is nothing to do with my limited media relations knowledge. I don't accept that in this case it helped anything to release the story to the national press. If other reporters had come here and found the story, then it would be someone else's problem.

In the same way, I will be protesting next week about the British arms industry, on the basis that it is a non-argument to allege that we must sell arms otherwise someone else will. They might do. Then it is their weapons killing the children not ours.

I do not accept that it was right for the ship to facilitate wider media publication of the situation. That might not have stopped it happening, but it would not have been the ship which did the tipping off.

C

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arse

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well, TGG, you are right enough that I have least experience of media relations.

But to me the accusation that if nothing had been leaked then the situation would have been worse is a non-argument.
<snip>
I do not accept that it was right for the ship to facilitate wider media publication of the situation. That might not have stopped it happening, but it would not have been the ship which did the tipping off.

C

If the Ship had not "leaked" the story then it could have got out as you mention and then the Ship would have got some stick for "covering up" the matter, which would most likely have destroyed all credibility the MW project has ever had.

The Admins done OK, IMHO.

[ 11. October 2006, 12:49: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Melon

Ship's desserter
# 4038

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With all due respect, Cheesy, that's a total cop-out. You think the editors should have published the story, knowing full well what would happen next on the basis of their extensive media experience, let it happen, and then said "Well it wasn't us, our hands are clean"? And you would have approved of this?

When your website is part of the international media, there isn't a "do nothing" option, other than not to have dealt with the accusations at all.
quote:
Posted elsewhere by Chesterbelloc
Seriously, if that's the kind of "proportionate" reaction we're getting from Simon over discussing a controversial-at-best editorial decision I cannot believe there's not an unhealthy amount of defensiveness going about.

Do you think the amount of defensiveness going about increased after the first 100 posts accusing the editors and admins of everything short of eating babies, or was it when we got past the 400-post mark?

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French Whine

Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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AM has apologised for being slow to respond, which seems to me the most significant matter. The questions were whether RG had been given the information prior to it being posted publically. From what I have read, this was not the case, but she was made aware of it being published on the ship, for perfectly good reasons.

I would still maintain that, despite a few minor errors ( like taking to long to clarify about RG ), the Admins have behaved exceptionally well to all parties - Cosmo included. If I compare with what I would have liked to have done, I realise 1) why I am not an admin, and 2) exactly how gentle they have been.

I think that there is a lot that church press contacts could learn from this. Given how much bad press the church and clergy often get, we need to do something.

Oh, and if you think I am just creeping to the admins, then I will set Simon onto you.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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Zeus there's a lot of these threads.

From another one:

quote:
Originally posted by Jenn R:
I wouldn't blame the admins if they decided this had all got too much and closed the boards. They don't get paid. They don't get rewards. They do this for fun.

I don't give a shit if people think I am an arse-licker for saying this, but if you don't respect the people that run this place then fuck off. You don't have to agree with their every decision, you don't even have to pretend to agree with their decisions, but show some fucking respect to the people who give up their free time to provide you with this service. If you can't do that then fuck off, leave the boards. Yes the place will be quieter and some of you will be missed for your contributions to the discussions, but you'll be replaced. Get over yourselves.



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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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The approaches to the media could have done

  • Issue a general press release, which would cause the ship the most discomfort and Cosmo the most embarrassment.
  • Issue a press release only the local Reading newspapers doing he same as above but possibly causing more problems for Cosmo.
  • Arrange it so it is released to cause the minimum amount of damage to all parties.
  • Do nothing and hope that someone nice finds the story but if someone nasty finds it say 'it wasn't my fault guv'.

I think we all agree the first two approaches would have been totally wrong. The third approach is the wisest the fourth approach is something only a wild optimist would even consider doing.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The approaches to the media could have done

  • Issue a general press release, which would cause the ship the most discomfort and Cosmo the most embarrassment.
  • Issue a press release only the local Reading newspapers doing he same as above but possibly causing more problems for Cosmo.
  • Arrange it so it is released to cause the minimum amount of damage to all parties.
  • Do nothing and hope that someone nice finds the story but if someone nasty finds it say 'it wasn't my fault guv'.

I think we all agree the first two approaches would have been totally wrong. The third approach is the wisest the fourth approach is something only a wild optimist would even consider doing.

3 would be wonderful and in my view is what the Admins have striven to achieve.

How would you have done it differently? Come on, details please Mr 20/20 Hindsight.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stevie Boy Wonder
Shipmate
# 11869

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quote:
Originally posted by Ancient Mariner:
As it was my call, I apologise for being slow off the mark in response to the original request for information re: The Times' article and any embarrassment it may have caused.

Thank you AM, apology accepted.

SS, I think Nightlamp was trying to make the point that option 3 was not only the course of action taken, but the best course of action of those available for all parties concerned...

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Jesus saves. But in the current economic climate, His pension probably won't be enough for eternity...

Also by the same author

Posts: 1599 | From: Wherever I lay my hat, that's my home | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Stevie Boy Wonder:

SS, I think Nightlamp was trying to make the point that option 3 was not only the course of action taken, but the best course of action of those available for all parties concerned...

Quite probably. Looks like my subtlety/irony detectors are as defective as ever. My apologies to Nightlamp.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Cheesy, the point is that the Ship is read regularly by many journalists precisely because it often makes a news story. It was absolutely inevitable that the Cosmo story would be picked up. Ancient Mariner's actions in alerting Ruth Gledhill were not aimed at maximising media impact but minimising it. Hopefully the story is pretty much dead now that it has been covered by The Times (editors are obsessed with exclusives)- furthermore the way he did it gained the most favourable coverage that could be expected for both the Ship and Cosmo himself. All in all, AM made a good call and got it right.

Oh right, silly me. Leaking to the press is designed to reduce publicity not increase it.

Nobody actually reads the Times or takes any account of Gledhill's reports, after all.

Cheesy, I'm going to add my voice to the chorus of "You don't understand how these things work".

In the US we have had a juicy sex-and-politics scandal splashed over our headlines for the last two weeks because TPTB tried to sweep it under the rug (and reacted badly once it was out in the open, but that's another story). To translate it broadly into UK terms, it got the Daily Mail headline treatment rather than the Ruth Gledhill blog treatment.

In the other thread Simon has said that the diocese (et. al.) reviewed items pre-publication as a professional courtesy. Had the ship been interested in "the scoop" or making "the kill", this would not have happened. In all it sounds like skillful and responsible (dare I say ethical? yes, I dare) media handling by an experienced professional team.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
In the US we have had a juicy sex-and-politics scandal splashed over our headlines for the last two weeks because TPTB tried to sweep it under the rug (and reacted badly once it was out in the open, but that's another story). To translate it broadly into UK terms, it got the Daily Mail headline treatment rather than the Ruth Gledhill blog treatment.

The Rep. Foley affair is an excellent example (still haven't recovered from some random Republican strategist's call that we all "get on the same page"! Hahaha!) But anyway, it's been known for a billion years (in politics, that is -- about five years in real time) that Rep. Foley made inappropriate e-mail and personal contact with his 16ish male pages, and that everyone who knew tried to deal with it privately. In the end, rather than having any control over the story, those who swept it under the carpet had it explode, spattering the halls of Congress with the entrails of any politican attached to the scandal in any way. Who knew what? When? Who else will resign? Will there be criminal charges? None of this would have been necessary if some clever clogs PR savvy party higher-up had decided - right, we can't protect Foley anymore, so we're going to quietly fire him, and go public with all of what we know in the Washington Times or some other relatively sympathetic organ and apologize profusely for any failure to move on him. It's a three-day story, in that case, rather than one that hands control of the House to the other party in midterm elections.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If other reporters had come here and found the story, then it would be someone else's problem.

Yes! Do you know whose? The Ship's and Cosmo's to start. Over and over the drone continues...

"The Ship's experts felt it would cause the least damage to the Ship and to Cosmo to leak the story themselves and retain control of the information."

quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
why not trust us when it was raised to react reasonably?

I'm not speaking for the admins at all here, but it seems fairly obvious to me that such a trust would have been misplaced.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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Just because you understand something almost related to the vague topic that Ancient Mariner specializes in you think you know what you're doing to criticize his professional expertise? What a bloated fuckwit! Do you also tell Alan Cresswell about radiation and physics? There are some people on the ship who can tell me how to do my job, but all of them are in similar fields! What the fuck are you doing thinking you know more than he does when you're completely clueless on a topic he has devoted large amounts of time and energy to?

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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Gee, which Hell call to post to?

I'm had it up to Here with this pervasive attitude that somehow Cosmo is a victim here and the Ship is out to ruin him.

c'mon, people! Cosmo did this to himself! lets not forget that important part of this discussion. If he suffers due to bad press, who's fault is that? is it Ancient Mariner's for his release?

Dear God, he did the kindest thing possible - which Cosmo's actions hardly deserve - and it fucking worked.

Really, it's not just ignorant but embarrassingly naive to think the Ship operates in some sort of bubble. or really to think anyone does. do you think that if Cosmo had hoaxed a print publication somehow the impact would be less?

Give me a fucking break!

How does one get rid of cockroaches? one turns on the light. that's what the media does when it's working right - it shines a light in all those corners.

Cosmo is I'm am sure an oh-so-fine etc etc whatever. but he did something shitty. it is the role of the media to let people know when that happens. because people cannot make their best choices if they are not informed.

Will this hurt Cosmo's career? I hardly think so. like I said up in Styx he's probably getting more prayers and hot dishes than any other time in his life. But IF it hurts Cosmo's career - don't be so stupid as to shoot the messenger. get a fucking grip. Cosmo hurt Cosmo's career.

And if Cosmo thought he was operating in a bubble where the public would never know - not only was that naive of him, but to me that would be the much bigger red flag - does he (or any of us) only behave morally when the lights are on?

Grow up, people. this is how the system works. and it works. We want to know who are neighbors are in the world. we want to vote intelligently and we want to hire intelligently and we want to worship intelligently and that comes about from being informed.

it's so fucking easy to blame the media, but it's just dodging.

As I said in a recent pm, to paraphrase a colleague of mine, "I'm just holding up a mirror, people. The face you hate is your own."

--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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quote:
Originally posted by professor kirke:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
why not trust us when it was raised to react reasonably?

I'm not speaking for the admins at all here, but it seems fairly obvious to me that such a trust would have been misplaced.
I don't post much anymore (I'm trying to learn to listen rather than speak all the time!), so I've hesitated over whether to say anything about this matter---but I think Professor Kirke is wrong here, and I find I feel it strongly enough to put in my .02 worth...

The whole situation stank. What Cosmo did was wrong--full stop, no "ifs," "ands," or "buts." I didn't like the fact that SOF outed Cosmo, but I had no doubt that the Admins did what they believed to be best---and I was willing to give them the full benefit of the doubt.

Until.

Until they admitted---very late in the game---that they deliberately leaked the story to Ruth Gledhill. It may have been a brilliant media strategy. It may well have had the least-worst outcome for the situation.

But it feels wrong. It just does. To me, and apparently to many others.

Maybe it's just that I am still having difficulty believing that the story would have had any "legs." I've been part of online communities for many years. I've seen them come and go---often blowing up just this way (over community misbehavior).

But I have *never* seen an internal community matter make national news. Not even in an online community that, I would hazard a guess, probably makes the Ship look like small potatoes...

Maybe I don't understand the nature of the British press? Maybe they are just so hard up for "news" that the matter of a parish priest posting made-up reviews in Mystery Worshipper would seem juicy. That is hard for me to comprehend. Ultimately, Cosmo is a nobody---why would that story have been interesting enough to make the news (if it hadn't been handfed to the Religion reporter)?

But even if I buy the argument that it *was* news, I am left feeling that the Admins didn't want us to know they had fed the story to Gledhill because they knew it would not play well in Peoria, to use an American phrase. And that, as Chesterbelloc surmised, they hoped no one would ask too many questions about the timeline of Gledhill's blog and article.

When you add in Simon's chucking IngoB from the private boards because IngoB came to some conclusions that one might reasonably come to, given the way things came out piecemeal, the whole thing starts to unravel for me.

Trust really is an issue here---but it is not all about what Cosmo did to abuse trust. Apparently the Admins didn't trust *us* enough to tell us the whole truth until it got dragged out of them, and now they tell us they can't trust IngoB enough to work with him because he made Simon mad.

I, for one, would have reacted much more positively if the Gledhill info had been released from the get-go. And I feel that, if the health of the community is going to be bandied about as one of the reasons for outing Cosmo and planting the story in a national newspaper, we deserved to be told the FULL story from the beginning. We are the community, are we not? Why didn't we deserve to be told what was being done to "protect" us?

Cosmo is not the only one who has damaged trust in this community. I dare say there are no clean hands in this mess now...

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
What the fuck are you doing thinking you know more than he does when you're completely clueless on a topic he has devoted large amounts of time and energy to?

Gwai, with all due respect, those of us who disagree with Ancient Mariner's decision *are* entitled to our opinions---even if we are not all Certified Public Relations Geniuses.

I am probably less entitled than others, because I don't post all that much---but there are a number of folks who are valued contributors here who think the Admins did the wrong thing. Do you really believe they should just "shut the fuck up"?

At the risk of sounding Purgatorial, I'm all for expressing support for the Admins, but when I believe they've erred, don't I have a responsibility to say so? (After I've contributed to the Organ Fund, of course. [Devil] )

--------------------
Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
But it feels wrong. It just does. To me, and apparently to many others.

Yeah, let's just all go on our feelings, because they're always a perfect moral compass.

quote:
Maybe it's just that I am still having difficulty believing that the story would have had any "legs." I've been part of online communities for many years. I've seen them come and go---often blowing up just this way (over community misbehavior).
This one has been around since 1998. Not exactly a fly-by-night operation.

quote:
But I have *never* seen an internal community matter make national news. Not even in an online community that, I would hazard a guess, probably makes the Ship look like small potatoes...

Maybe I don't understand the nature of the British press? Maybe they are just so hard up for "news" that the matter of a parish priest posting made-up reviews in Mystery Worshipper would seem juicy. That is hard for me to comprehend. Ultimately, Cosmo is a nobody---why would that story have been interesting enough to make the news (if it hadn't been handfed to the Religion reporter)?

So you're unaware of the existence of things like the Church Times in the UK? It's a weekly newspaper that covers the Church of England.

quote:
But even if I buy the argument that it *was* news, I am left feeling that the Admins didn't want us to know they had fed the story to Gledhill because they knew it would not play well in Peoria, to use an American phrase. And that, as Chesterbelloc surmised, they hoped no one would ask too many questions about the timeline of Gledhill's blog and article.
Again, your feelings. No facts, just feelings.

quote:
When you add in Simon's chucking IngoB from the private boards because IngoB came to some conclusions that one might reasonably come to, given the way things came out piecemeal, the whole thing starts to unravel for me.
Reasonably? Hardly.

What has struck me is how predictable so many of the responses in the Styx have been. People who have previously shown themselves to be anti-management came out in general against the Editors and Admins -- there has not been a single surprising post there, where someone who has generally been supportive of the management in the past looked at the facts laid out and said, "Whoa. This is wrong."

quote:
Trust really is an issue here---but it is not all about what Cosmo did to abuse trust. Apparently the Admins didn't trust *us* enough to tell us the whole truth until it got dragged out of them, and now they tell us they can't trust IngoB enough to work with him because he made Simon mad.
Again, imputing the worst possible motives, presumably based on your feelings. Yawn.

quote:
I, for one, would have reacted much more positively if the Gledhill info had been released from the get-go.
Whereas plenty of other people would have seized on this tidbit the way mr cheesy has. And so what if you weren't told up-front? Why exactly do you need to know this?

quote:
And I feel that, if the health of the community is going to be bandied about as one of the reasons for outing Cosmo and planting the story in a national newspaper, we deserved to be told the FULL story from the beginning. We are the community, are we not? Why didn't we deserve to be told what was being done to "protect" us?
Frankly, I think the burden of proof is upon you to show why you deserve to know about the editors' decision-making process.

quote:
Gwai, with all due respect, those of us who disagree with Ancient Mariner's decision *are* entitled to our opinions---even if we are not all Certified Public Relations Geniuses.
But your opinion is not an informed one, so it's worth a whole lot less than Ancient Mariner's, Spawn's, or cometchaser's. That Spawn has defended AM's handling of the PR aspect of this whole thing speaks volumes. There's someone who has not exactly been in the editors' and admins' pocket who has looked at the facts and judged accordingly.

quote:
I am probably less entitled than others, because I don't post all that much---but there are a number of folks who are valued contributors here who think the Admins did the wrong thing. Do you really believe they should just "shut the fuck up"?
When they don't know what the fuck they're talking about, yes.

quote:
At the risk of sounding Purgatorial, I'm all for expressing support for the Admins, but when I believe they've erred, don't I have a responsibility to say so? (After I've contributed to the Organ Fund, of course. [Devil] )
Are you among the fewer than 100 shipmates who have done so in the last year? I am.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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Paige, expert or no, if I'm looking for a PR guru to help get my message across to best effect, you'd be high on the list! You encapsulate my concerns precisely.

I do appreciate all the efforts Simon et al. are making to get things right for the community, but I reserve the right to raise my concerns about how successful they're being - precisely because I care about this community too. And, sorry and all, but Simon's reaction to IngoB's Styx posts sucked big-time - and I'm having real difficulty understanding how certain others can't see that it might be a least a bit sucky.

--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged



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