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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Where are the children supposed to go?
Adam.

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quote:
Quoth leo:
Also, where are the children supposed to go during a 15 minute Litany?

Not to pick on leo, but I wonder what presuppositions underlie the asking of that question, and the answers we might give.

If Church is about learning facts, there's no more sense children being with their parents than there is in 6 year olds taking college seminars.

If we go to Church to 'get something out of it' or 'feel good' then there's no more point in children being there than tagging along on their parents' cinema date night.

If we go to Church to become better people, then children should no more go to Church with their parents than children and parents be treated to the same medical treatments.

But, what if we go to Church to worship? Where are the children supposed to go, then? Church, I hope.

[ 09. October 2013, 07:39: Message edited by: seasick ]

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Pomona
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I would say that the answer is different for Eucharist-centred churches than it is for preaching-centred churches. If a sermon is half an hour - or longer! - then it makes sense for children to be in Sunday school for that time. However at my church, since the sermon is short and we only have babies and toddlers anyway, we just have an area at the side with toys, books, colouring materials etc for the parents to sit with the children during the service. The children are therefore around for the whole service. I do object to junior church/Sunday school where kids are out of the service for pretty much the whole service.

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I would say that the answer is different for Eucharist-centred churches than it is for preaching-centred churches. If a sermon is half an hour - or longer! - then it makes sense for children to be in Sunday school for that time. However at my church, since the sermon is short and we only have babies and toddlers anyway, we just have an area at the side with toys, books, colouring materials etc for the parents to sit with the children during the service. The children are therefore around for the whole service. I do object to junior church/Sunday school where kids are out of the service for pretty much the whole service.

The tyranny of low expectations. I grew up in and currently attend churches that had/have 30 minute sermons. Children learn to adjust.
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I would say that the answer is different for Eucharist-centred churches than it is for preaching-centred churches. If a sermon is half an hour - or longer! - then it makes sense for children to be in Sunday school for that time. However at my church, since the sermon is short and we only have babies and toddlers anyway, we just have an area at the side with toys, books, colouring materials etc for the parents to sit with the children during the service. The children are therefore around for the whole service. I do object to junior church/Sunday school where kids are out of the service for pretty much the whole service.

The tyranny of low expectations. I grew up in and currently attend churches that had/have 30 minute sermons. Children learn to adjust.
It's not about low expectations. It about the sermons being aimed at adults, therefore children are entitled to teaching at their own level. Being bored shitless isn't very conducive to children growing in faith.

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PD
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I often wonder whether when we started shunting the kids off to Sunday School during the liturgy all we in fact succeeded in doing was teaching them not to attend church, or that church is boring.

Personally, I think "catholic" liturgy - high Anglican, high Lutheran and RC - is engaging enough that most kids will not become so bored as to be fractious. Certainly we had a couple of seven year olds, a four y.o. and a nine week old at a Pontifical High Mass yesterday, and they were hardly noticeable. Then again the sermon was not long enough to inspire rigor mortis. My one caveat on the kids in church rule is that where the sermons tend to be long, and appropriate activity should be planned for the youngest so they learn something whilst the adults are tuning out the sermon. However, I think they should be there for the whole liturgy.

I have tended to observe that kids that grow up in Church tend to cope well with it, and it tends to be the mix of adult apprehensions and fears, rather than any real need, that leads to them being shunted off to various kiddy corales. The best place for 8 year olds is learning to serve he mass or singing in the quire.

PD

[ 22. April 2013, 03:30: Message edited by: PD ]

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Quoth leo:
Also, where are the children supposed to go during a 15 minute Litany?

Not to pick on leo, but I wonder what presuppositions underlie the asking of that question, and the answers we might give.
A sung litany in procession with incense is ideal liturgy for children. Seemingly contrived especially to evoke the goggle-eyed in a child of any age.
  • Ya got action—There's a whole crowd of folk walking around.
  • Ya got visuals, plenty to look at—Vested acolytes carrying processional cross and candles, including adults & children their own age: 7 years to 18 years. Vested choir, including adults & children their own age: 7 years old to 18 years old, plus adults. Not to mention the folk wearing the fancy, eye-catching dresses (tunicle, dalmatic, and chasuble).
  • Ya got smoke and fire—What's not to like here? Thurifer with a steaming incense pot, plus a boatbearer of about age 7 or 8.
  • Ya got music—Plus responses that soothe the savage child^h^h^h^h^h I mean beast that are easy to learn and easier to sing.
  • Pop in a banner or two and then take the whole shebang outside for a walk around the block.
Then, more general than just a sung litany, I agree with the other comments. The ones about low expectations; and, ESPECIALLY, how we seem to want to teach our children how not to be in church, by EXCOMMUNICATING them from the assembly.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I often wonder whether when we started shunting the kids off to Sunday School during the liturgy all we in fact succeeded in doing was teaching them not to attend church, or that church is boring.

I think it makes sense to take the younger children out for the liturgy of the Word. The language in the standard Bible translations isn't aimed at pre-readers and early readers. I think they do much better with bible stories in child-friendly language.

But I think that's what we should be doing with them - a liturgy of the word aimed at young children, rather than the sort of "Sunday School" activity that always seems to involve coloured paper and scissors. Once they're eight or nine, they should be able to follow the adult liturgy.

Our shack doesn't do this - children either remain in church, or there is a creche for tiny ones if their parents want to use it, but I rather wish we would. As a result, preschool-age children tend to sit in the pews colouring photocopied pictures of Jesus, and I'm not convinced that's the best way to involve them.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Being bored shitless isn't very conducive to children growing in faith.

Or adults, which is why I no longer attend sermon-centered churches. But that's another thread, perhaps.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I often wonder whether when we started shunting the kids off to Sunday School during the liturgy all we in fact succeeded in doing was teaching them not to attend church, or that church is boring.

In my youth, kids wanted to be grown up, to join the adults. We were sent off to Sunday school (the order of service was rearranged to put the sermon at the end, we left just before the sermon), but some time in pre-teen years we'd beg to be allowed to stay with the grown ups and that was a thrill even if the sermon went over our heads. We got to be with the grown-ups!

That was before the youth culture made being grown up a seeming negative.

Today there seems to be a lot of emphasis on making sure the pre-teens and teens are separated from those stodgy old grownups who by definition are not having any fun. In some churches, not just leaving for the sermon, but a whole different youth service at a different time slot.

I figure the church we are teaching them to attend is the youth church, if that's all they really know that's what they'll be looking for as adults because we taught them that they don't want to go to the regular service because it's boring.

(And don't get me started on the awful kiddie music! We sang the hymns, from first sound making. Church is where I learned to love, and read, music.)

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Being bored shitless isn't very conducive to children growing in faith.

Or adults, which is why I no longer attend sermon-centered churches. But that's another thread, perhaps.
Well quite, and the same for me.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE] Being bored shitless isn't very conducive to children growing in faith.

That can also happen in a church with short sermons - no the sermons don't bore but the lack of teaching to enabvle adults to grow does.

Sometimes those churches with short sermons and eucharistic liturgy aren't as welcoming as they make out. Woe betide the toddler who takes one step out of a pew at the "wrong" moment or a baby who cries because it's time for a meal. Looks of dagger sharp intensity aren't the worst of it - some pretty cutting comments are voften expressed about "disturbing the peace" within earshot of the parents.

Result? No Sunday School because you don't need it - you've a pretty effective way of keeping the service to adults only even if you have a short sermon. How do I know - well it's happened to me in more than one denomination and I don't think my children were any worse than any other. Getting glared at for joining in hymns wasn't the half of it .... ok a 3 year old can't sing well but what is a complaint saying about how we see God's view of it all.

I don't pretend to preach short sermons - and we are a growing all age fellowship. We are fortunate in having a good number and % of the church fellowship under 18. Soem stay in for the sermon and it seems ok - soem don't. At least we're pretty relaxed about children and maintain a reverence for God. It wouldn't be the 1st time if a crying baby was silenced - not by glares - but by his or her mum feeding discretely in the service. No one minds - at least no one has said they do (and I think they would). They'd get pretty short shrift if they said anything negative.

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Evangeline
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The children in our church go to Sunday school but SS finishes during the peace, the children come in and process up to the altar with candles while a hymn is sung, then they come back to their parents and sit through the 20 minute or so litany and come up to the altar for communion (we do communion in the round).
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE] Being bored shitless isn't very conducive to children growing in faith.

That can also happen in a church with short sermons - no the sermons don't bore but the lack of teaching to enabvle adults to grow does.

Sometimes those churches with short sermons and eucharistic liturgy aren't as welcoming as they make out. Woe betide the toddler who takes one step out of a pew at the "wrong" moment or a baby who cries because it's time for a meal. Looks of dagger sharp intensity aren't the worst of it - some pretty cutting comments are voften expressed about "disturbing the peace" within earshot of the parents.

Result? No Sunday School because you don't need it - you've a pretty effective way of keeping the service to adults only even if you have a short sermon. How do I know - well it's happened to me in more than one denomination and I don't think my children were any worse than any other. Getting glared at for joining in hymns wasn't the half of it .... ok a 3 year old can't sing well but what is a complaint saying about how we see God's view of it all.

I don't pretend to preach short sermons - and we are a growing all age fellowship. We are fortunate in having a good number and % of the church fellowship under 18. Soem stay in for the sermon and it seems ok - soem don't. At least we're pretty relaxed about children and maintain a reverence for God. It wouldn't be the 1st time if a crying baby was silenced - not by glares - but by his or her mum feeding discretely in the service. No one minds - at least no one has said they do (and I think they would). They'd get pretty short shrift if they said anything negative.

I agree, although I've experienced that situation in denominations that are preaching-based as well as Eucharist-based. It's clearly unacceptable either way. Even as a non-parent, I am glad that my church isn't like that.

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Chorister

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I've been to churches before where families are told what they should do with their children, and are all expected to do the same. But I think this is awful, as children are so different - some are able to engage with the whole service, others would be climbing the walls after five minutes. Some like to feel grown up and take part in what other adults are doing in the service (eg. acolyte, choir duties), others need something provided at their level.

My church, and other similar churches, offer what I believe to be the best solution - to provide a range of different options and allow families to dip in and out of them as their family circumstances change. For example, we have some families who have one quiet child who likes to be an acolyte or sing in the choir and another, more lively child, who goes out to the vestry group, or to play in the toy corner, or to go for a run around with dad in the churchyard for part of the service.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Frankly we eventually gave up with mainstream church with our kids. Didn't matter what it was, they were bored shitless. Regardless of the supposed excitement of a sung litany, I know that my three would rather eat their own earwax than sit through one. They just weren't interested in what the grown-ups were doing at the front.

Mrs LB took them to a hands-in-the-air happy clappy shack once just to see if that suited them any better. They hated that as well.

I don't think it's just ours - the church we used to attend now has no children's work because it doesn't have any children.

[ 22. April 2013, 08:57: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Frankly we eventually gave up with mainstream church with our kids. Didn't matter what it was, they were bored shitless. Regardless of the supposed excitement of a sung litany, I know that my three would rather eat their own earwax than sit through one. They just weren't interested in what the grown-ups were doing at the front.

Mrs LB took them to a hands-in-the-air happy clappy shack once just to see if that suited them any better. They hated that as well.

I don't think it's just ours - the church we used to attend now has no children's work because it doesn't have any children.

Purely out of interest - what kind of church would your kids enjoy?

Also, how old are they? Not all kids are going to be interested in church full stop, and if they're old enough (or one is old enough to look after younger siblings), I don't think it's wrong to leave the kids at home (this is meant generally, not to you personally!).

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Heavenly Anarchist
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Our church is happy clappy and has about 70 children, we are currently producing over 10 babies a year. This is because the church is very large and the majority of the congregation is in the 20s- 40s age range. Large numbers do help an awful lot, the children feel part of a group which makes them far more comfortable and more likely to be happy whatever they sit through, as they know there will be friends nearby.
We have a very organised Sunday school but children are involved in worship too, with signing of songs for those who can't read. Children are welcome to stay in for the sermon which is 40 mins but most go out to Sunday School, we have babies and a few toddlers still around though. My 12 year old sits through these sermons every week with no problem, sometimes he even looks up from his kindle to listen [Biased] but my 9 year old would sit through a sermon too. out of term time the kids just stay in and do activity sheets and quietly sit or play, or their parents take their younger kids to one of the school rooms. The parent and baby room has the sermon piped in for the parents. The church is very relaxed about the presence of children.
Obviously a lot of these things won't work with most churches' structures. But I do think the key is to make children feel wanted and part of what is happening, whether in church or in Sunday School. When my eldest was much younger we were at our local Anglican and it was very tough to maintain a Sunday school with just a handful of kids, sometimes they might be the only one there which is no fun for any child. But as a 3 year old he loved the liturgy, especially Agnus Dei, and would sing it on the bus. So I think often kids can learn to adapt to whatever the church environment and become part of it. Hearing liturgy might become comfortably familiar to them.

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Ad Orientem
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Kids usually have short attention spans. Whatever way we worship kids will probably find it difficult, yet I'm strongly of the opinion that kids should not be segregated and herded off to some other place, nor should worship be dumbed down for them. So what if a baby cries or a kid runs about? Fortunately it's never been an issue in the places I've been to, not in my former RC parish and not in my current Orthodox parish. It was just accepted as being part and parcel of worship being for all. It's a sign of a vibrant, living congregation for which we should be grateful.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Frankly we eventually gave up with mainstream church with our kids. Didn't matter what it was, they were bored shitless. Regardless of the supposed excitement of a sung litany, I know that my three would rather eat their own earwax than sit through one. They just weren't interested in what the grown-ups were doing at the front.

Mrs LB took them to a hands-in-the-air happy clappy shack once just to see if that suited them any better. They hated that as well.

I don't think it's just ours - the church we used to attend now has no children's work because it doesn't have any children.

Purely out of interest - what kind of church would your kids enjoy?

Also, how old are they? Not all kids are going to be interested in church full stop, and if they're old enough (or one is old enough to look after younger siblings), I don't think it's wrong to leave the kids at home (this is meant generally, not to you personally!).

My kids are 4,6 and 8. They will put up with (rather than positively enjoy) our current church, which is probably because the entire service lasts half an hour, the sermon (such as it is) about two minutes and the service will generally include some amusing audio-visual material (Doctor Who, Tim Minchin and Tom and Jerry have all featured at some point), the service is followed by lunch and it only happens once a fortnight.

Anything vaguely normal or mainstream is an utter turn-off for them.

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Pomona
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I think with people in general (not just kids), church is supposed to be counter-cultural. For me, brought up in a totally secular household, Anglo-Catholicism feels incredibly counter-cultural, and being the strange child who preferred museums (not even kid-friendly ones) to theme parks I probably would have enjoyed it as a child. But these things are obviously harder to express as a child.

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loggats
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I think kids who grow up with an awareness of the mass and have it integrated into their lives would find the whole thing less of an ordeal, and more the culminating moment of their week.

I can only really talk for RC mass (and I'm sure that most protestant services can't provide these things and probably wouldn't want to) but if a child knows that the Eucharistic presence provides a unique opportunity to be near Jesus, that can become a powerful incentive to remain prayerful during the liturgy.

A week that's filled with devotional practices (especially prayed in common with the family) then finds full expression in the mass - even if the child can't receive communion yet and receives a blessing instead. It's about encouraging an intimacy with Christ within the context of liturgy, and having kids appreciate the uniqueness of their encounter with the Lord.

At least that's what I think it's about when children attend Catholic mass.

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Zappa
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From the conclusion of the collect onwards our children exit, returning at the peace. They continue 'breaking open the word' with age appropriate teaching and intercessions and confession of faith ... if there were a litany some simple rite would suffice.

All in theory ... the timing is often a little skewiff ...

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
I think kids who grow up with an awareness of the mass and have it integrated into their lives would find the whole thing less of an ordeal, and more the culminating moment of their week.

I can only really talk for RC mass (and I'm sure that most protestant services can't provide these things and probably wouldn't want to) but if a child knows that the Eucharistic presence provides a unique opportunity to be near Jesus, that can become a powerful incentive to remain prayerful during the liturgy.

A week that's filled with devotional practices (especially prayed in common with the family) then finds full expression in the mass - even if the child can't receive communion yet and receives a blessing instead. It's about encouraging an intimacy with Christ within the context of liturgy, and having kids appreciate the uniqueness of their encounter with the Lord.

At least that's what I think it's about when children attend Catholic mass.

YMMV. Other kinds of children are available. Past experience is not a guide to future performance, etc. etc.

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gog
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As some one leading worship and as a parent, there is also the question of the parents (or those who do the caring for the child) being able to worship and partake. There is nothing worse than trying to follow the sermon while also sorting out toys from a bag, or the colouring instrument that has just fallen on the floor, or is about to be eaten.

I'd see it as a chance to break open the word in different ways and engage in words and actions that can be understood by the age group. At the local shack we have a cresh group who are 3 and down, and a teen group. They are in church but engaging in ways they can appreciate. And didn't Paul say something about baby food while young and solids later?

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think with people in general (not just kids), church is supposed to be counter-cultural. For me, brought up in a totally secular household, Anglo-Catholicism feels incredibly counter-cultural, and being the strange child who preferred museums (not even kid-friendly ones) to theme parks I probably would have enjoyed it as a child. But these things are obviously harder to express as a child.

That's exactly the issue - for me, A_C worship has never seemed counter cultural at all and the hierarchical nature of "priesthood" as it is practised (admittedly not always what is intended) turns me off totally. I just can't be doing with all that fiddling about either and besides which the incense makes me heave. I got angry enough at people who smoked near me in pubs and restaurants when it was allowed, to get myself back into that position. Then, there's the hypocrisy of a fair church of the A-C world which even Ken Leech points out: explicit opposition to gay priests from the very sector that attracts a high % of them (and often from the very individuals who are still closeted).

I don't see that as counter cultural more a expression of the establishment of this country that to be frank, I can't stand.

There's actually little difference in some ways between Eucharistic and sermon based liturgies: it all involves action elsewhere and sitting and listening.

Potential prejudices aside, too much of what is presented as mainstream "church" comes across as safe, smug and all too smart for its own good. Too many "in jokes" in asides, too much pointless information. I don't need to know who's polishing the brass this week. (And yes, I've heard that as a visitor in a church recently not an A-C one but an Con Evo one - so there's trouble everywhere).

For me, counter cultural is kicking hierarchies into touch, asking someone in the congregational to pray the prayer of thanksgiving from the pew and giving stuff out to the prostitutes who work 20 yards away on the street corner. It's asking big questions not just of faith but of faith structures, as well as of our society and its institutions. That's radical: doing someone different probably isn't - being something different certainly is.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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What he said.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[QUOTE] YMMV. Other kinds of children are available. Past experience is not a guide to future performance, etc. etc.

Yep agree with you on that one. Mine would have killed me on the spot if they were subjected to that kind of treatment (today they might call it abuse but then they are pretty feisty 20 and 30 some things). My grandchildren however will sit and listen esp. if it's granddad up front. They haven't started trying to kill me ....yet .... but I suspect it's only a matter of time.
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loggats
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
I think kids who grow up with an awareness of the mass and have it integrated into their lives would find the whole thing less of an ordeal, and more the culminating moment of their week.

I can only really talk for RC mass (and I'm sure that most protestant services can't provide these things and probably wouldn't want to) but if a child knows that the Eucharistic presence provides a unique opportunity to be near Jesus, that can become a powerful incentive to remain prayerful during the liturgy.

A week that's filled with devotional practices (especially prayed in common with the family) then finds full expression in the mass - even if the child can't receive communion yet and receives a blessing instead. It's about encouraging an intimacy with Christ within the context of liturgy, and having kids appreciate the uniqueness of their encounter with the Lord.

At least that's what I think it's about when children attend Catholic mass.

YMMV. Other kinds of children are available. Past experience is not a guide to future performance, etc. etc.
Definitely, but differences between religious cultures and liturgies are not simply incidental.

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quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
I think kids who grow up with an awareness of the mass and have it integrated into their lives would find the whole thing less of an ordeal, and more the culminating moment of their week.

I can only really talk for RC mass (and I'm sure that most protestant services can't provide these things and probably wouldn't want to) but if a child knows that the Eucharistic presence provides a unique opportunity to be near Jesus, that can become a powerful incentive to remain prayerful during the liturgy.

A week that's filled with devotional practices (especially prayed in common with the family) then finds full expression in the mass - even if the child can't receive communion yet and receives a blessing instead. It's about encouraging an intimacy with Christ within the context of liturgy, and having kids appreciate the uniqueness of their encounter with the Lord.

At least that's what I think it's about when children attend Catholic mass.

YMMV. Other kinds of children are available. Past experience is not a guide to future performance, etc. etc.
Definitely, but differences between religious cultures and liturgies are not simply incidental.
Trouble is - if I'm thinking what that's bloke/idiot/plonker/priest doing at the front (delete words that don't apply) - then there're probably thinking the same thing.

Not being someone who can skim things and accept superficiality I ask all the wrong questions. My children have done the same and it's, shall we say, not helped our stay in one or two places of religious experience.

I accept what you say about difference but it's the assumption that just because we believe this/do this, I have to do the same, that I really take issue with.

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loggats
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Well, if you believed that the priest was acting in the person of Christ and (regardless of how utterly idiotic you found him to be otherwise) "unites himself most intimately with the offering" (in the words of Pope Paul VI) then it takes on another level of significance above and beyond your immediate reactions.

Obviously this doesn't apply to protestant services, where no such action in persona Christi takes place as part of a sacramental rite.

Awkward questions have their place but if you don't believe in what's going on, I would think that a mass isn't the most edifying or appropriate place for you.

Now if the service doesn't include an awareness of this sacramental reality or unique role of the priest, it becomes quite different and the opportunity to criticise it changes too. Which is why the way we approach a Sunday service (as kids or grownups) really does depend on what we're actually doing.

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Bishops Finger
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It's not uncommon these days for about one-third of our Sunday Mass assembly to consist of under-16s.......

.......many (at the moment) are babies or toddlers, but, on most Sundays (at least during term-time), half-a-dozen or so have an informal 'Sunday Club' with their own teaching/activities, which takes place in the Hall during the homily, intercessions, and Eucharistic Prayer. They rejoin the rest of the assembly at the Peace (which is just before Communion, as per the Roman rite).

This seems to work for us, but I would like some of the older kidz to help out as servers.....the problem is that they simply don't arrive in time - half our people waltz in somewhen between the introit hymn and the Gospel.......

Personally, I love to see the kidz in church, and many of our folk share this view. No angry whispers, dagger-like glancings, or 'tut-tutting' at our place!

Ian J.

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Alan Cresswell

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It's a problem we're still facing. We have a nice small church, full of great people we really like. And, for it's size has a relatively large number of kids (how many churches could find themselves with 20% of the congregation under 18? - albeit maybe only once or twice a month) but with a congregation usually under 20 that often leaves just our two. And, the other kids that come once or twice a month are older, so they're needs are different from those of our kids. Of course, with a small congregation the task of taking kids out can't be passed around very much so it's often one person who then misses out on the rest of church.

We have a Sunday School of sorts, although there is rarely anything more organised than read a Bible story and colour some pictures. Not surprisingly the teens we have aren't interested in that, our boy isn't either. When the wee man started to refuse to go out, prefering to sit through the sermon than what was offered in Sunday School his sister followed suit so we started sitting at the back with some of our own puzzle/colouring books. A table spontaneously appeared after a couple of weeks of this, with the Sunday School materials, as the church adapted to what was working for us. But, still it's not ideal - for a start the kids are not now getting any teaching from the church except the little bits they may garner when they look up from their activities. And, it means Flausa and I are back to looking after children rather than worshipping and getting something for ourselves from the service.

We would like it if there was more opportunity for our kids to participate in the service. But, there are issues at the moment about assisting in things like passing the collection bags around or distributing bread and juice at Communion. They enthusiastically (well, sometimes) assist in clearing away chairs and taking down the hymn numbers after the service.

We talked yesterday with the minister, and have some ideas that may help us. First, she's going to print off a copy of the sermon so that our boy can read it during the service. Also, let us know in advance what hymns there are going to be so that we can go through them with the kids in advance so they can be more confident joining in the singing - plus we'll let the minister know what songs/hymns they know and like and she'll try and fit those in where appropriate. Rest assured, our boy is learning to play the organ and seems much more at home with traditional hymns than they dross that often comes out as "child appropriate" songs.

Second, we're going to occasionally go to other churches and experience how they conduct worship and what they do with the children - we may, or may not, find ourselves moving. We may just find what options there are so the boy can tell us what he would want.

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L'organist
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A wise old priest I used to know had one standard line for parents (and adults in general) at Baptisms:

"Do not send your child to church or Sunday School: there is no more sure-fire way to innoculate a child against the church than to send it to a place where mum and dad never go."

Churches can make young children welcome: play bags, a creche in the same building, carpet the back of a side aisle (if you have one), etc, etc.

Making children welcome does not have to mean dumbing-down or religion-lite: you preach to the whole of the congregation.

"All-Age" and "Family" should mean just that: that the service, including the sermon, is for ALL ages and ALL the family from granny to the youngest. By all means ask granny to be patient but, equally, ask parents of young children to fit in with their elders as well.

[ 22. April 2013, 12:37: Message edited by: L'organist ]

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Anselmina
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My experience was probably very untypical. My brother and I were brought to church from pre-toddler age. With books and small quiet toys, I believe - but still firmly sitting in my chair. So by the time I was primary school age (four and a half), morning prayer, hymns, canticles, prayers, 20 minutes sermon etc were normal. I don't remember being bored, though it's likely there were moments of boredom, and the mother nudged us back into paying attention mode! I joined the choir at 8*, where I learnt it was partly my job to show the congo how to behave in church. Needless to say the children were better at this than the adults. (*I heard they served tea and biscuits at half-time.)

I do remember being very unhappy at church Sunday School, and Mum arguing with the rector about why she didn't send us there, but sent us to another one in the afternoon, instead. (The excursions and annual prize-giving were better.) That was when the Sunday School was before church, however. I once tried to be a Sunday School teacher, too. But that was a very unsatisfactory experience, as well.

I've noticed that in the very small church congregations I know of where whole families from baby-age to teenage turn up - and there is little more than a bag of crayons and a colouring page available - the children appear to be joining in with the worship, as they gain their reading and speaking skills. Thanks to the parents, I have to say. At the moment, I'm trying to slow down the usual incoherent mumble of the adults, so that the children - who are very clearly enunanciating their prayers - can properly join in and feel included. But I seem to be the only one who's noticed this. [Frown]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Nah, we took ours along from baby age upwards, tried to encourage them to take part in the liturgy and the hymns, but they just didn't want to.

To be honest, I find that perfectly to be expected and totally understandable. It's the kids who apparently like being there and taking part that I find strange.

But then I'm strange, awkward, bizarre and not like anyone else, so it's perhaps not surprising that my kids are also apparently from another planet.

[ 22. April 2013, 14:16: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I always preferred the old Anglo-Catholic custom of having the sermon after Mass. That way, children do not have to suffer through it. Back in the places where this was the practice in my youth and young adulthood, people did not leave in droves immediately after Mass and before the sermon; one would only do this rarely when there was some legitimate need to haste away -- it was considered too obviously rude to do otherwise.
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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Nah, we took ours along from baby age upwards, tried to encourage them to take part in the liturgy and the hymns, but they just didn't want to.

To be honest, I find that perfectly to be expected and totally understandable. It's the kids who apparently like being there and taking part that I find strange.

It is the nature of children (well, young children at least) to want to participate in the things going on around them. Children are hardwired to copy their parents. It's how children learn.

If they go to church, their parents and other adults are clearly enjoying and finding meaning in the liturgy, hymns, sermon etc then I would expect the vast majority of children to want to join in. If they are prevented from doing so (eg: because they are sent to a Sunday School where something else is happening) or where the adults are sending all the "I'm bored, why do I bother coming" signals that children so easily pick up on then I'm sure they will find things less appealing.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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They did, a bit, when they were very, very little. By the time they were four or so they'd decided they really didn't understand why their parents wanted to go to this boring place but were pretty sure they didn't want to.

But then again perhaps they picked up that neither of us found it particularly exciting, even though we both clearly had reasons for wanting to be there. But now I'm confused, see; on the one hand we're told that church isn't meant to be entertainment and the boredom is apparently all part of the ill-defined benefit of being there, but we're also meant to pretend it's really exciting so that the kids want to do it?

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leo
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If children are to stay in, then the liturgy should be specifically 'all age' and kids should be involved, if they want to, in serving, sidespersoning, leading the intercessions AND administering the chalice. There should also be some sort of creche - adults should tolerate noise such as crying but it is often the parents who suffer, not the kids, unless they are regularly reassured that we don't mind noise but, in fact, welcome it as 'participation.'

However, bear in mind that they will get no specific 'instruction' if they don't have some sort of Sunday School which is geared to their ability and aptitudes.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Quoth leo:
Also, where are the children supposed to go during a 15 minute Litany?

Not to pick on leo, but I wonder what presuppositions underlie the asking of that question, and the answers we might give.
A sung litany in procession with incense is ideal liturgy for children. Seemingly contrived especially to evoke the goggle-eyed in a child of any age.
  • Ya got action—There's a whole crowd of folk walking around.
  • Ya got visuals, plenty to look at—Vested acolytes carrying processional cross and candles, including adults & children their own age: 7 years to 18 years. Vested choir, including adults & children their own age: 7 years old to 18 years old, plus adults. Not to mention the folk wearing the fancy, eye-catching dresses (tunicle, dalmatic, and chasuble).
  • Ya got smoke and fire—What's not to like here? Thurifer with a steaming incense pot, plus a boatbearer of about age 7 or 8.
  • Ya got music—Plus responses that soothe the savage child^h^h^h^h^h I mean beast that are easy to learn and easier to sing.
  • Pop in a banner or two and then take the whole shebang outside for a walk around the block.
Then, more general than just a sung litany, I agree with the other comments. The ones about low expectations; and, ESPECIALLY, how we seem to want to teach our children how not to be in church, by EXCOMMUNICATING them from the assembly.

Was wondering how old you were and if you had kids - today's computer games and stuff mean that what you describe above is boring. (It's the way I used to experience the Litany and I find it boring!)

Agree with you about 'excommunication' - we are currently planning to give communion to children BEFORE they are confirmed as we need to explore, as a congregation, ways that involve them. But parading them round the church to a Litany which is nearly 400 years old isn't one of them.

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loggats
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I agree that young well behaved kids generally imitate their parents and will mirror the reverence that's expected. And parents can always explain what's going on after the service and/or during the week. Relying on Sunday School or catechism class to give children a rounded appreciation for the faith, including liturgy, isn't always a good idea.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
I agree that young well behaved kids generally imitate their parents and will mirror the reverence that's expected.

Not in my experience

quote:
And parents can always explain what's going on after the service and/or during the week.
Yeah, but we also explain why we'd rather they didn't beat each other up over the Wii and why strewing their dirty clothing over the floor is a right royal PITA, but it doesn't make it miraculously stop.

quote:
Relying on Sunday School or catechism class to give children a rounded appreciation for the faith, including liturgy, isn't always a good idea.
Anyone say they're doing that?

One of the things that always crosses my mind whenever I read these "involving kids in church" threads is that I wonder whether some of the participants knows what a child looks like, let alone how they think and react.

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Gill H

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I was a clergy kid in a MoR CinW church in the 70s. We had Sunday School in the afternoon, so no separate children's activity during morning service.

My friends and I joined in, because that's what you did. We had a book for the sermon, but said/sang everything else. Didn't occur to us that you got a choice, and we never thought about whether we actually enjoyed it. It's what people did.

The Litany was actually one of the more interesting bits, because I got to hear my dad say 'bloody'!

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Stejjie
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
A sung litany in procession with incense is ideal liturgy for children. Seemingly contrived especially to evoke the goggle-eyed in a child of any age.
  • Ya got action—There's a whole crowd of folk walking around.
  • Ya got visuals, plenty to look at—Vested acolytes carrying processional cross and candles, including adults & children their own age: 7 years to 18 years. Vested choir, including adults & children their own age: 7 years old to 18 years old, plus adults. Not to mention the folk wearing the fancy, eye-catching dresses (tunicle, dalmatic, and chasuble).
  • Ya got smoke and fire—What's not to like here? Thurifer with a steaming incense pot, plus a boatbearer of about age 7 or 8.
  • Ya got music—Plus responses that soothe the savage child^h^h^h^h^h I mean beast that are easy to learn and easier to sing.
  • Pop in a banner or two and then take the whole shebang outside for a walk around the block.
Then, more general than just a sung litany, I agree with the other comments. The ones about low expectations; and, ESPECIALLY, how we seem to want to teach our children how not to be in church, by EXCOMMUNICATING them from the assembly.
What ya haven't got is anything much for them to do - as in, to get their hands on, to pick up, to touch and feel and play with and make work and experience. However much we might see the responses in liturgy as an active part of the worship, I'd bet that most children won't - they're still not doing very much, at least from their point of view. They're sitting/standing/kneeling and saying the odd word or phrase, not taking an active part.

I'd argue that if the "going out" activities for children are carefully planned and prepared, designed to help children encounter and worship God in a way that's appropriate for them (recognising that that may not be the same as for adults), if it's recognised by the church as being equally valid and important as what the grown-ups are doing and if it will end with the children joining the grown-ups so that the service ends with the congregation as one - if what they're doing is seen as much as church as what the adults are doing - then that doesn't have to be "excommunicating" the children, just realising they have different needs to grown-ups that might need to be met in different ways.

If it's just a glorified baby-sitting service that's aimed at keeping them quiet while the adults get on with the "more important" business of "proper church", then I think it becomes something like "excommunicating" them from church - and that is a problem.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Gill, that was wonderful for you, but some kids Just Aren't Like That.

I wasn't Like That.

My kids aren't Like That.

If they're bored, they'll tell you they're bored. And even if the threat of dire punishment shuts them up (nothing else does, believe you me) then you can bet that they'll be desperate to stop going the moment it becomes logistically possible for them to not go.

I have a suspicion that one reason our churches are so empty of kids and young families generally is that most kids aren't Like That, most parents know their kids aren't Like That, and therefore solve the whole problem by not attending. It's only fully paid up members of the awkward squad like me that actually try anyway and point out that there's a problem. A big one.

And what Stejjie said.

[ 22. April 2013, 15:45: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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loggats
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You seem to be quite contrary... I guess we have different experiences.

Some children are difficult, and they need special attention, but I don't think all children are like that and the majority of young children I see at mass on a Sunday are respectful and seem aware of what's going on.

It would also be unrealistic to expect kids to suddenly transform their behaviour if they act very differently at home - so I guess some issues (attention span, interest in the subject, general attitude) are best resolved before setting foot in a church.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by loggats:

Some children are difficult, and they need special attention, but I don't think all children are like that and the majority of young children I see at mass on a Sunday are respectful and seem aware of what's going on.

My kids are quiet and respectful in church, in that they stand and sit when everyone else does, they don't carry on private conversations while everyone else is praying, or otherwise cause a disruption. But what they are thinking is that they have to be quiet while this adult talking is happening. They're not following the readings, and not even trying to pay attention to the sermon. As far as they're concerned, the whole thing may as well be in Latin.

I think that means we're not doing a very good job at involving children in church, and that we should do better.
quote:

If it's just a glorified baby-sitting service that's aimed at keeping them quiet while the adults get on with the "more important" business of "proper church", then I think it becomes something like "excommunicating" them from church - and that is a problem.

And I agree completely with Stejjie here. A Liturgy of the Word for children should be proper church - just in language that the children can actually follow, and with more direction so they know what's going on. It should have the same structure and ordering as the adult service, and because it's "proper church", the adults can do it too every now and then.

I suspect, however, that done badly, it's worse than not being done at all.

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
What ya haven't got is anything much for them to do - as in, to get their hands on, to pick up, to touch and feel and play with and make work and experience.

Why should they "do" anything except absorb what is going on? Is this the same "doing" that has in most Novus Ordo parishes twenty-seven lay people administering the chalice to a congregation of an hundred and fifty?

As for children's liturgies as far as I'm concerned it's a complete anathema. There should be no more than one Divine Liturgy on any given day in any given church. Any other divine worship should be devoted to the liturgical hours.

[ 22. April 2013, 20:57: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
What ya haven't got is anything much for them to do - as in, to get their hands on, to pick up, to touch and feel and play with and make work and experience.

Why should they "do" anything except absorb what is going on?
Because when we gather together as church, we're supposed to encourage, strengthen and enrich each other in our faith. We're not supposed to watch some other people do stuff and join in with little bits here and there. *Takes cover*

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

As for children's liturgies as far as I'm concerned it's a complete anathema. There should be no more than one Divine Liturgy on any given day in any given church. Any other divine worship should be devoted to the liturgical hours.

To clarify, AO, do you view a children's liturgy as the same degree of anathema as having two Masses at different times on the same day, or is one worse than the other?
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