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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Aiding the suffering in Gaza deligitimises Israel -- WTF?
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pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
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Posted
Israel is starting to hit many of the same propaganda tones as North Korea.
The blockades they have set up are ridiculous, but somehow they're like 90% approval rate among Israelis (Jews only, I presume). That this persists, and is supported by our government, is a real crying shame. Hopefully this kicks some people in the crotch.
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Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
Posts: 1177 | From: Swinging on a hammock, chatting with Bokonon | Registered: Feb 2006
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
Perhaps the answer is for a group to arrive in the USA and refuse to be boarded by customs and see what happens when the customs call in armed forces to attempt to stop them and those forces are resisted. Remember the Waco seige? Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
God, the "you can't say anything negative about [fill in the blank] because you're an Americans and America has done naughty things in the past" trope is so fucking lame. Can't you come up with a better argument for genocide than that?
If we had occupied a corner of Canada since 1967 and regularly bombed it and prevented humanitarian aid from coming in in anything but a trickle, you might even have a point. Maybe. Comparing this to Waco is wacko. Buy a sense of proportion.
And is landing in Gaza the same as landing in Israel? Is Gaza a part of Israel now? Will the Gazans be granted voting rights? Passports? The right to work? Food, water, and sanitation? Your analogy doesn't even work as an analogy.
[ 31. May 2010, 07:44: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
Well, the correct parallel is the present restrictions on the Amer-Indian states within the boundaries of the USA whose treaty rights are not respected... However my point remains - there was no reasonable alternative to the Israelis' action of boarding the ships. The Gazan government is committed to the destruction of Israel as a state and is therefore subject to a preemptive blockade to reduce the prospect of repeat of the criminal disregard for civilian life demonstrated during the indiscriminate rocketing of Israeli civilians. Whilst that situation persists, the only issue is how to ensure the blockade is enforced in as humane a fashion as possible. In this case the offer was made for the boats to land in an Israeli port and the good to be transferred to Gaza; instead the knife and gun wielding peace activists chose to score political points by ignoring the lawful blockade.
Could the Israelis have avoided some or all of the blood shed? Who knows? To claim that they could have done is to claim a knowledge of the tactical situation on the ships that is worthy of God - but certainly not of an American or Brit thousands of miles away. The fact that there was bloodshed proves nothing about the legitimacy of the Israelis' actions. The knee jerk assumption that there was a blood shed free solution to the problem of maintaining the blockade shows a faith in state of the world that is deeply irrational. To fall into the trap of automatically blaming the Israelis for this disaster shows an irrational, emotion led response to the situation.
Some of the Israeli marines may have over reacted. We don't know. But whatever else stories of war reveal, they do show that battlefields are places where things go wrong. Unless you are a veteran of hand to hand fighting on ships I think you should be very hesitant about indulging in cheap grandstanding by expecting me to condemn Israel for the action.
And note that the Waco situation is highly pertinent: a similarly fraught situation where the best endeavours of the legitimate forces to do it right went horribly wrong. Or at least I assume the Americans made 'best endeavours': as far as I'm aware noone on the government side has been charged with any offences in connection with Waco, so the actions appear to have the endorsement of American law.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
The situation seems to be a little confused at the moment, but I've just watched the footage on the BBC news website. The sight of men with covered faces suggests to me that they are not just innocent charity workers but have a more malevolent intent.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Israeli blockade against Gaza, that blockade is in place. Why is a charity trying to run a blockade if the Israeli and Egyptian governments have offered to unload the supplies and transport them to Gaza? That doesn't make sense to me.
I've never heard of the 'Free Gaza Movement' before, but a quick Wikipedia check suggests that the International Solidarity Movement is a member. As I understand it, they have a rather dubious record.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
Screw Israel. I don't want to hear the excuses of their spokesmen so I just muted the TV sound. I wouldn't trust Israel as much as Iran now. Still above North Korea at the moment.
I hope this kind of thing brings the world's attention to Israel's activities and means more people support Palestine.
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
Screw Israel. I don't want to hear the excuses of their spokesmen so I just muted the TV sound.
After all, you wouldn't want to confuse your prejudices by facing some facts would you? It's not like the accused has a right to be heard? We always know when someone is guilty; let's save ourselves a lot of money and abolish the criminal courts... I look forward to your early arrest and expect you to make no attempt to defend yourself.
Please hosts, send this down to Hell so I can be appropriately unrestrained in the face of this ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
I've heard Israel's excuses many many times in the past and they are full of lies and full of shit.
The only reason they are able to susrive is because the US doesn't let anyone criticise them. On many occasions a UN knuckle-rapping has been vetoed by the US.
Screw Israel.
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Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Perhaps the answer is for a group to arrive in the USA and refuse to be boarded by customs and see what happens when the customs call in armed forces to attempt to stop them and those forces are resisted. Remember the Waco seige? Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
How would that be the answer to IDF forces boarding a ship in international waters? Can you provide evidence that the Israeli customs were involved in this?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Perhaps the answer is for a group to arrive in the USA and refuse to be boarded by customs and see what happens when the customs call in armed forces to attempt to stop them and those forces are resisted. Remember the Waco seige? Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
How would that be the answer to IDF forces boarding a ship in international waters? Can you provide evidence that the Israeli customs were involved in this?
No - I doubt Israeli customs were involved - this is about a military blockade of an avowed hostile entity. The parallel with customs is about the situation if someone tried to do a similar thing in the USA (or UK).
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
This is pathetic.
I wish the Israeli government were somewhat more compassionate. The country may be threatened, and always has been, and there may be actual weapons for Hamas on board those ships - but we don't know right now.
Whom can you trust? I've always thought that Israel as a nation is still considerably more influential economically, culturally and as a military power than many of the Arab countries put together. It certainly is an example of an amazingly, even incredibly successful country, built perhaps on occupioed ground (as the Palestinians may say, here with regard to the founding of the state of Israel), but noneless rather democratic and I believe more enlightened than most of its neighbours.
However, Israel should credit themselves for this and leave the Palestinians more leeway, especially in the Gaza strip. The sheer inability of the Israeli government (who is democratically elected - even though rightwing nutters play a decisive role, unfortunately) for acts of generosity is more than regrettable - I think it does in fact much more harm to Israel than to the Palestinian extremists.
If they allowed Palestine some reasonable amount of trade with the outside world, the Palestinians might be considerably less fond of Hamas, who now have a quasi-messianic role - but simply because there seems no viable (literally!) alternative. By turning Gaza into some sort of a 'concentration strip', Israel seems not exactly to be learning from history, but rather denying that other nations' suffering might need relief too.
Which is sad. And rather unwise, as it goes.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
What if it is true that people on the ship in question were indeed armed? I distrust information from any side in this conflict, but what if the Israeli military are saying the truth?
It's a fallacy to always distrust them, in my view.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
I agree. But what about a statement like this?
quote:
Israel's deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said his country "regrets any loss of life and did everything to avoid this outcome".
He accused the convoy of a "premeditated and outrageous provocation", describing the flotilla as an "armada of hate" [sic!].
(From: BBC News)
Both sides are behaving rather unreasonably, I think.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
"In the beginning", Jews demanded their own independent state where their traditions claimed the land. The UN came to recognize Israel. Time has passed. And during all this time, Muslim extremists surrounding and penetrating Israel have vowed to exterminate Israel, period. That threat has never diminished. Rather, it lately has been on the increase. What would you have Israel do? They can't reasonably back off and let Gaza open to the outside world, not while Hamas, et al. the enemies of Israel are using that place to stockpile weapons and "troops": which is exactly what would occur overnight if Israel pulled off and left Gaza to its own unfettered devices.
Throughout all this time, Israel has never pursued the destruction of anything or anyone other than those extremists posing an immediate threat: Israel's war is one of meeting each "brush fire" situation with sufficient strength to eradicate it. Extermination of Arabs and Muslims has never been part of their policy, not even within their own borders. If the strategic situation was reversed, just how many Jews do you suppose would survive within a beleaguered state of Palestine threatened by Jews in Gaza?
Each person Israel kills in defending herself is used by the extremists to broadbrush Israel as the aggressor. Getting Israelis to kill extremists is good for extremist propaganda. Meanwhile, Israel offers to pass legitimate commerce and aid through her own ports to assure that no weapons are being smuggled into Gaza: seems reasonable and humane to me. But the extremists deliberately put themselves into harm's way so that casualties can be held against Israel as inhumane denial of importation of much needed aid. Anyone who cannot see this deliberate ploy by the extremists for what it is has blinders on.
As pointed out above, battlefields produce a multitude of opportunities to screw up. Both sides screw up. But there is no moral equivalency here....
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
AIUI Israel says that they allow food, medicine, and all other essentials to go into Gaza from Israel.
They say that the things which the blockade-runners want to deliver to Gaza are already available there, and the blockade-running is just a publicity stunt.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
What if it is true that people on the ship in question were indeed armed? I distrust information from any side in this conflict, but what if the Israeli military are saying the truth?
It's a fallacy to always distrust them, in my view.
What disturbs me rather, is that as I read it, the Israelis accept that their military forces boarded ships in international waters with no immediate provocation. Even from the Israeli accounts, they were not threatened with any weapons until they were on the Turkish-flagged ships. The IDF and Israeli politicians seem to regard the flotilla's existence as sufficient provocation but I am not sure what international maritime legal specialists will say to that.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
I've always thought that Israel as a nation is still considerably more influential economically, culturally and as a military power than many of the Arab countries put together. It certainly is an example of an amazingly, even incredibly successful country, built perhaps on occupioed ground (as the Palestinians may say, here with regard to the founding of the state of Israel), but noneless rather democratic and I believe more enlightened than most of its neighbours.
How much of the economic, cultural and military influence and success as a country is because of the extraordinary amount of USA money (and German money, and non-Israel Jewish money) poured into Israel every year? How strong economically would Israel stay if the money flow stopped today?
Might Jordan or some other country in the area have achieved similar economic, cultural, military influence and success as a country with similar help? I don't know, I'm not saying it would have been true, Israel had an influx of young strong already-educated people dedicated to creating something new. Other countries in the area had existing populations with their existing ways of doing things. Maybe similar amounts of money and interest poured into Jordan would have made no difference.
But to call Israel a success when it still needs ongoing high dollar subsidizing from outsiders for it's yearly operating budget is an incomplete definition of "success."
I don't mean to downplay the hard work or enthusiasm of early settlers setting up country of their own at last or the role of the cultural endorsement of education, those are important factors. I'm just wondering some (not all, but selected) other countries would benefit in amazing ways if offered as much money as Israel for as long on similar terms.
And I'm wondering how long Israel has to be heavily subsidized to survive and how many decades of ongoing dependency is consistent with being judged an economic success vs that judgment being still a bit pre-mature.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
The Flotilla was an act of protest by Turkish sympathizers to call attention to the blockade of Gaza by Israel. It has done that with the overzealous help of the Israeli navy.
The real question is not to argue about what and why the violence occured but what next about the blockade?
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
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Posted
Now that the U.S. has given up on Israel's right to exist (and any legitimacy in the war on terror), what should happen to the Jewish people currently living in Israel?
Will we allow them to flee in boats? Will we show at least as much mercy on them as we show to their murderers? Or should they join the Armenians, another powerless people, betrayed then mourned by the liberal establishment?
God Damn America indeed.
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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
And during all this time, Muslim extremists surrounding and penetrating Israel have vowed to exterminate Israel, period. That threat has never diminished. Rather, it lately has been on the increase. What would you have Israel do?
There is truth in what you say.
But the reports of mal-treatment by Israel of it's own citizens who happen to be not Jewish are disturbing. Knocking down long time Arab houses in Jerusalem to give the space to Jews, for example, or building a wall separating farmers houses from their land, the low quality schools and hospitals in Arab sections of Israel compared with services provided for Jews -- one would think Jews would have learned from their own history that discrimination against a people for their ethnic origins or culture or religion is not right.
Would the Arab opposition have softened by now if Israel were treating all it's citizens with respect? With the same respect they wanted when they lived in countries controlled by other cultures?
I think Israel had an opportunity to become the moral light of the world. Instead Israel is increasingly criticized on moral grounds because of behaviors that are judged immoral when any other country does those things.
(Criticizing Israel for doing thing that would be criticized in any other country is NOT anti-Semitism, even though some claim any criticism of Israel is prejudice.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(Criticizing Israel for doing thing that would be criticized in any other country is NOT anti-Semitism, even though some claim any criticism of Israel is prejudice.)
Who is actually claiming this?
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
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Posted
Belle Ringer, is taking land by eminent domain (or did they just buy it?) the moral equivalent of blowing up shopping malls? Does putting up a security fence equate to lobbing rockets into schools?
Israel has done some pretty shitty things in this conflict. Some of them border on war crimes. But the Israelis police their own. They set policies working toward peace. They don't deliberately target civilians.
Nearly everything Hamas does is aimed at the death of the Jewish people.
I for one find our nation's shift to supporting these murders morally sickening. We have chosen to support the terrorists against their victims. We have chosen to support Islamic extremists against those who would live in peace. We have chosen to side with those who would destroy us.
I believe God blesses those who bless the Jews and curses those who curse them. We have damned ourselves. I'm beginning to suspect Obama (who promised he wouldn't abandon Israel) intended this all along. Jeremiah Wright's preaching of hate found fertile ground.
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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Now that the U.S. has given up on Israel's right to exist (and any legitimacy in the war on terror), what should happen to the Jewish people currently living in Israel?
If talking to Hamas means giving up on the right of Israel to exist, does this mean that Ronald Reagan had given up on capitalism when he met Mikhail Gorbachev? Had Pope John Paul II given up on Roman Catholicism when he met Elizabeth II, Supreme Governor of the Church of England? Just sayin'.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
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Posted
Sadly, Jeff, Obama hasn't abandoned Israel. I wish he would. I wish the US government would repudiate the country and cut off all aid supplies and military deals with it immediately. I wish that the US Gov't wouldn't allow Israeli lobby groups to write legislation for it.
What you don't realize is that Israel doesn't want peace. They've been a bigger roadblock to peace than even Hamas is. They've also been unconscionably horrific to the Palestinian people on whose land they live, and their acts don't border on war crimes, they are war crimes.
I don't like Palestine and I don't like Hamas. But I am finding I hate Israel a bit more each day.
And please - cut the tired Jeremiah Wright bullshit. It's below even you.
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Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
Posts: 1177 | From: Swinging on a hammock, chatting with Bokonon | Registered: Feb 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The UN state the amount of stuff allowed into Gaza at the moment by th Israeli government is considerably less than is actually needed. Hence people running the blockade.
I remember being told not to believe the number of dead / level of destruction we were told about suring the recent invasion of Gaza - cos everyone was biased against the Israelis and the figures coming from the UN. None of the people saying that, came back and acknowledged they were wrong when the figures were not substantially changed after the conflict and Israel's own soldiers admitted they had been committing war crimes.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
@pjkirk: there is no moral equivalency in this mess! How you can equate Israel's mistaken policies with those who have openly avowed to kill off Israel and it's Jews is inconceivable to me.
Yes the Jews are as racially prejudiced as the next lot, maybe even more than most (history certainly holds up Jewish exclusivity as one the prime examples of racial prejudice). And the gov't of Israel ought to be equally developing all of Israel's population not just the Jewish areas. But their failure to be perfectly magnanimous does not justify the terrorist rockets and suicide bombers aimed at public places without discrimination.
On the topic of the US "caving" to the terrorists: I don't believe it for a moment. His Oness may be trying some strange approaches to the problem of ME instability; there may be "secret" meetings taking place, but this reaction of Khaled Meshal - blabbing about these asserted meetings with US reps - only shows how morally bankrupt Hamas is: they can't even keep confidence, but use the USA for their own purposes. I expect the USA to repudiate anything said to Hamas and sever the talks after this. If His Oness does not then his reputation will drop even lower....
[ 31. May 2010, 15:35: Message edited by: MerlintheMad ]
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
If they had been Somalis rather than Isrealis wouldn't it have been called 'piracy'? After all it was in International waters.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
So are the Israelis blockading Gaza, or are they happy to pass on any humanitarian aid anybody might care to donate? It can't be both. Why don't you Israel-ass-kissers get your story together and come back to us.
The Palestinians fight back against their tormentors with rockets because that's what they have. Israel has occupied their territories, without annexing them, since the 1967 war, a 43-year flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention. They bulldoze homes, punish whole groups of people for the actions of some, the list of their G.C. violations is longer than my arm. Every year they chomp off more of the territories for their so-called "settlements", concentrating the west-bank Palestinians on less and less land.
And you want me to automatically believe what this nation says? They're practicing national terrorism.
Oh wait I can't say that, I'm an American. Sorry. Forgot your twisted logic for a moment there.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
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Posted
Think, the "humanitarian" supplies on this ship were mostly concrete.
Now concrete can be used to build schools, but it can also be used to build hardened rocket launching bunkers.
In any case it's not food or medical supplies or any of the other things people really need to survive.
The Palestinians are smuggling war materials and lying about it. Not that I blame them, but I don't blame the Israelis for catching them either.
TeaasB, it was a declared blockade and they stopped military materials. That's a far cry from piracy.
Josephine, the U.S. has a long tradition of not negotiating with terrorists. Specifically we do not negotiate with groups that don't acknowledge Israel's right to exist in some form.
This article claims the Obama administration is negotiating with a group that's goal is to kill all the Jews in Israel thereby acknowledging the legitimacy of the goal.
That's fair enough. But is it wise? How much legitimacy can we claim chasing "terrorists" in Yemen while eating lunch with them in Gaza?
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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Think, the "humanitarian" supplies on this ship were mostly concrete.
Now concrete can be used to build schools, but it can also be used to build hardened rocket launching bunkers.
In any case it's not food or medical supplies or any of the other things people really need to survive.
The Palestinians are smuggling war materials and lying about it. Not that I blame them, but I don't blame the Israelis for catching them either.
Dumpling Jeff,
The Palestinians in Gaza appear to have this bizarre desire to do more than merely "survive"; they want to live in houses with roofs on and fancy stuff like that. Concrete is a dual-use material and I have not seen anything that would justify your unqualified assertion that the flotilla's cargo is "war materials".
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
The UN state the amount of stuff allowed into Gaza at the moment by th Israeli government is considerably less than is actually needed. Hence people running the blockade.
I remember being told not to believe the number of dead / level of destruction we were told about suring the recent invasion of Gaza - cos everyone was biased against the Israelis and the figures coming from the UN. None of the people saying that, came back and acknowledged they were wrong when the figures were not substantially changed after the conflict and Israel's own soldiers admitted they had been committing war crimes.
Maybe, but if I'm an Israeli citizen I stopped taking the UN seriously in the early 70's. They haven't gotten any better since then. That anybody takes the UN seriously amazes me. It is a joke.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(Criticizing Israel for doing thing that would be criticized in any other country is NOT anti-Semitism, even though some claim any criticism of Israel is prejudice.)
Who is actually claiming this?
Sorry for the doublepost...
Who believes Israel is doing something that no other country would do? If the United States imposed a blockade of anywhere and ships tried to run that blockade, they would be paid a visit by the SEALs.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Well, when the UK had a serious terrorist threat in Northern Ireland, you didn't see tanks rolling up the Falls Road to shell Republican areas with white phosphorous. Neither did we prevent IRA sympathisers going to the local supermarket to buy a tin of beans.
So, yes: Israel is pretty much alone in its treatment of the Palestinian people.
(edited for speeling)
[ 31. May 2010, 19:26: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
No, no, you didn't. Then again, there aren't enough Israelis in Gaza to both control the police force and have several paramilitary fraternities carry out acts of violence against Palestinians. If they did, the Israelis would probably handle the situation in Gaza much like the British handled Northern Ireland.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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On the off chance that some of this is directed at me, I shall reply:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So are the Israelis blockading Gaza, or are they happy to pass on any humanitarian aid anybody might care to donate? It can't be both. Why don't you Israel-ass-kissers get your story together and come back to us.
For the record, I am against a lot of what is done by the Israeli government.
Doesn't mean that I cannot ask awkward questions.
quote:
The Palestinians fight back against their tormentors with rockets because that's what they have. Israel has occupied their territories, without annexing them, since the 1967 war, a 43-year flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention. They bulldoze homes, punish whole groups of people for the actions of some, the list of their G.C. violations is longer than my arm. Every year they chomp off more of the territories for their so-called "settlements", concentrating the west-bank Palestinians on less and less land.
With you up to here. Though I'd just remind you, regarding the use of rockets, that those fired at by both Hamas and Hizbollah forces include civilians.
quote:
And you want me to automatically believe what this nation says?
Despite all the above, it doesn't mean that every single thing they say is a lie. Oh, and I said nothing about believing 'automatically' what they say.
quote:
They're practicing national terrorism.
Oh wait I can't say that, I'm an American. Sorry. Forgot your twisted logic for a moment there.
I for one have said nothing about you being an American.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, no, you didn't. Then again, there aren't enough Israelis in Gaza to both control the police force and have several paramilitary fraternities carry out acts of violence against Palestinians. If they did, the Israelis would probably handle the situation in Gaza much like the British handled Northern Ireland.
Withdrawing from Gaza was a deliberate policy of the Israeli government. The second isn't really true if you count heavily armed settlers. The Israelis could have handled the situation in Gaza like the British handled NI - but have mostly refused to do so.
The biggest problem I have with the Israeli govt's protestations is that they pretty much treat the West Bank (Fatah controlled, no rockets) the same as they treat the Gaza strip (Hamas controlled, with rockets).
I end up buying Fairtrade olive oil from West Bank Palestinian olive trees in my local Co-op, presumably because the producers are that economically isolated and impoverished, even though they exist cheek-by-jowl with some of the most successful fruit growers and market gardeners on the planet. That in itself speaks volumes.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Still strikes me that the blockade-runners were committing Suicide By Cop...
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Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175
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If the flotilla were a simply bunch of grandstanding activists, then the Israelis response probably was excessive. If they were arms smugglers into Gaza, then I have no problem with Israel intercepting them in international waters. Given the amount of bad faith argumentation and special pleading by both Israeli and Palestinian partisans, it is impossible for me to discern what the truth behind this nasty incident is.
It seems to me that Israel is trapped in a security dilemma of which there is almost no way out. In order to preserve its security for its citizens, Israel has to impose oppressive measures against the Palestinians. Israel would not exist if it did not oppress the Palestinians. Yet, the oppression itself increases the pressure on the state and contributes to a gradual degrading of the Israeli state's own security over time, perhaps sowing the seeds of Israel's eventual destruction. I do not see anyway out for Israel but for outsiders to impose a settlement, and for the Israeli and Palestinian power structure to be willing to live with the settlement. Unfortunately, the United States cannot do this because of the inordinate political influence of the Jewish lobby and the Christian religious right, and the United Nations cannot do it because of the inordinate influence of ideological anti-Semites.
[ 31. May 2010, 21:25: Message edited by: Shadowhund ]
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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
If they had been Somalis rather than Israelis wouldn't it have been called 'piracy'? After all it was in International waters.
Yes, it would be called that. But the thing is, the ship wasn't boarded by a group of Somali bandits but by a group of soldiers from a democratic state who are accountable for their actions.
If I captained a vessel and found Israeli ships alongside and commandos boarding, my instinct would be to think 'oh dear, I could really do without this, but let's grin and bear this and get through it the best we can. I'll put in a complaint if they put a step wrong'.
My instinct wouldn't be to reach for my pistol and to start beating the commandos with sticks, which strikes me as a completely silly thing to do.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowhund:
If the flotilla were a simply bunch of grandstanding activists, then the Israelis response probably was excessive. If they were arms smugglers into Gaza, then I have no problem with Israel intercepting them in international waters. Given the amount of bad faith argumentation and special pleading by both Israeli and Palestinian partisans, it is impossible for me to discern what the truth behind this nasty incident is.
It seems to me that Israel is trapped in a security dilemma of which there is almost no way out. In order to preserve its security for its citizens, Israel has to impose oppressive measures against the Palestinians. Israel would not exist if it did not oppress the Palestinians. Yet, the oppression itself increases the pressure on the state and contributes to a gradual degrading of the Israeli state's own security over time, perhaps sowing the seeds of Israel's eventual destruction. I do not see anyway out for Israel but for outsiders to impose a settlement, and for the Israeli and Palestinian power structure to be willing to live with the settlement. Unfortunately, the United States cannot do this because of the inordinate political influence of the Jewish lobby and the Christian religious right, and the United Nations cannot do it because of the inordinate influence of ideological anti-Semites.
A most excellent analysis. I can only disagree with one point. The Israelis can maintain the status quo for quite some time. One, they'll continue to have the support of the United States. Two, they have nuclear weapons. Who loves the Palestinians and hates the Jews enough to see their own cities destroyed by nuclear bombs? None of the Muslim countries in the Middle East.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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otyetsfoma
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# 12898
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As a pedant I wish people would stop referring to arabs and their sympathisers as "anti-semites". Arabs are semites!
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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Max_Power
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# 13547
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I certainly understand why the Israeli security forces did what they did, and if an independent source stands up tomorrow and says that there were weapons shipments involved, I would not be surprised in the least.
However...
This is a PR nightmare for Israel, and pissing off the Turks right now is just a bad idea. Both countries need each other and this just stokes the fire. There's enough blame to share by both sides on this foolishness. It was a lose-lose proposition from the start, grandstanders versus a nation paranoid about its existence.
Posts: 58 | From: Aylmer, QC | Registered: Mar 2008
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Think, the "humanitarian" supplies on this ship were mostly concrete.
Now concrete can be used to build schools, but it can also be used to build hardened rocket launching bunkers.
Come off it. I would think that building "hardened rocket launching bunkers" would be the last thing Hamas would want to do against an enemy that could drop a payload of bunker bombs on top of a penny.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
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The situation Israel is in has been going on from pretty much my whole life. Ongoing decades of exactly this sort of polarizing shit is starting to make me wonder if everybody in the situation isn't (perhaps unintentionally) doing their damnedest to keep things going the way they are. Israel has no long-term plans for resolving Palestine's plight, neither do any of the Arab nations who are outraged have any realistic plans for ridding the region of Israel.
The idiocy of it is almost circular enough to be an Andy Kaufman shtick. Israel gets billions in foreign aid to protect itself from those that would destroy it, and those that would destroy it get unknown (but probably lesser) billions in reciprocal support. They send some expendable fools to die to keep the act going, taking turns as necessary. They need their controversy-generating-machine to keep running to keep the attention of the world so that they maintain support and polarization.
If you subscribe to my cynical postulation, this event has been a PR win for both sides.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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The IDF's action calls into question Israels sense of right & ewrong. If Hamas or anyone else attacks, even in print Israel they are evil bad or terroist. If IDF does what it did the other day they are doing good.
Funny they excede even what the RN did when the blocaked against Israel in 1946-7. And those sailors didn't open fire on civilians.
Now if they were attacked maybe a case canbe made for opening fire. Even so killing people because they are non co opeerative seems extreme .I would black list Israel until they start acting like a civilized nation. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
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Squibs, here's a nasty little secret, bunker buster bombs don't work.
The U.S. has spent the last eight years trying to get a remote kill option against deep bunkers. We've spent billions on R&D. We still need to put men on the ground dodging booby traps (or not dodging them).
Hamas is motivated. They will use every trick I can think of to build death traps (and many I can't think of). They will kill hundreds or thousands of Israeli soldiers. They will kill more if they get the concrete.
Until you've had people dedicated to hunting your children and killing them, don't whine to me about the rights of intentional tourists in a war zone. IMO Israel has every right to sink those boats and the people on them. Hamas has the right to build deep bunkers to stage attacks on the IDF if they can smuggle enough concrete.
It's called war. It's a sick, bloody mess and should be avoided by sane people. But until one side wins it will continue. To win Hamas needs to kill the vast majority of Israelis (their stated goal being the elimination of Israel). Israel need to convince Hamas not to kill the Israelis.
Perhaps making a deal, land for peace, will win for the Israelis. It's shown no success in the last 40 years. Every time it's been tried Hamas has taken the loosening of marshal law to attack. But there are plenty of people willing to try again.
Instead Israel has chosen a hard line option. They have the weapons but no real legitimacy. They've chosen to follow their hard-liners and rely on force of arms. Yes, it's an insane decision. But is it less insane than giving people who hate you an opportunity to shoot you again?
I don't know.
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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Hamas hasn't been around for 40 years. Do you know anything about the history here, or are you just making this all up?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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