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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Papal Coronation / MW 1008: Papal Coronation
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
So -- any chance of a coronation, or did JPII's disinclination mean that we'll never see a Papal Coronation again?
And if no chance for the tripple tiara, what should we expect from the consecration?
[ 21. October 2005, 07:43: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I sincerely hope that Pope BenedictXI decided to have a coronation.
This will sound very selfish, but this is all so very new to me. I have heard and read of the smoke, and the shout of 'Habemus papam' and all of the pomp and ceremony and joy, but it has never been real, as it all happened before I was even born.
It has finally happened! All that people have spoken about for all of these years has actually happened! I'm so excited and am really looking forward to seeing what happens next.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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shareman
Shipmate
# 2871
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Posted
As I remember from 26 years ago, John XXIII sold the crown, but it was lent back to him and Paul for their coronations. Am I mistaken? If so, can coronation be taken to mean a slant to a pre-Vatican 2 style Church? I seem to remember the absence of a coronation of the last 2 popes was seen as being more in the spirit of Vatican 2.
[ 19. April 2005, 19:05: Message edited by: shareman ]
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Israel also came into Egypt, and Jacob was a stranger in the land of Ham.
Posts: 516 | From: on a rock AND a hard place | Registered: May 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I love pomp and pageantry (monarchist here...), and am hoping that Benedict indeed does have a coronation. (Of course, being a Franciscan, I should be saying that it is a dreadful waste of money better given to the poor.)
As far as I know, there is no reason there could not be a coronation - the 'triple crown' would no longer apply because the Vatican is not a temporal power as it was, but the crown Paul VI used could be borrowed once again.
Does anyone know (I cannot recall) if John Paul could not have had a coronation if he wished? I thought that his preference was not to do so. Somehow, knowing of his history and background, it would have seemed very odd for John Paul to have a coronation. (For all my love of pageantry, I'm a peasant, the same as Karol, and could not imagine a crown on my head, however much I enjoy seeing them placed on the heads of others.)
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shareman:
As I remember from 26 years ago, John XXIII sold the crown, but it was lent back to him and Paul for their coronations. Am I mistaken?
I think you're confusing reality with the film The Shoes of the Fisherman.
FCB
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
quote:
Originally posted by shareman:
As I remember from 26 years ago, John XXIII sold the crown, but it was lent back to him and Paul for their coronations. Am I mistaken?
I think you're confusing reality with the film The Shoes of the Fisherman.
Just in case no one thinks I've had too many "Glory of the Olive" martinis, I did not really think the crown had been sold and borrowed.
But seriously - is there any reason a new pope could not have a coronation?
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
Surely there's a rather fancy crown in the treasury attached to St Peter's that they could use? Certainly when I went there a couple of months back there was a splendid bit of headgear on show.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Surely there's a rather fancy crown in the treasury attached to St Peter's that they could use?
Eleven, actually. I vote for Pius IX's.
And the Pope is still the sovereign of the Vatican City State, so the triple crown is "relevant."
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
Paul VI's crown, if I remember correctly, is sitting, at this very moment, under glass at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.
Here are some rather good pictures of the sort of thing we'd like to see.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
This one makes me think of an old-fashioned christening gown (twice the length of the child/person wearing it). Though it does make the papal crown look rather innocuous and in scale.
this , though, evokes multiple brides adorned in red with ermine capelets ( ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ) approaching the altar.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Surely there's a rather fancy crown in the treasury attached to St Peter's that they could use?
Eleven, actually. I vote for Pius IX's.
And the Pope is still the sovereign of the Vatican City State, so the triple crown is "relevant."
I am fairly certain that Paul VI used the 'model' without the three crowns as a symbol of the papacy not having the previous degree of temporal authority.
IIRC, Paul was the first modern pope to travel elsewhere in the world during his pontificate - of course, nothing on the scale of John Paul. His no longer being head of a formidable temporal power (no Holy Roman Emperors to please, for example) ![[Biased]](wink.gif) apparently had a connection with this flexibility. Previous popes had to stay put lest they be taken to be out conquering the world.
The sedan chair also was phased out during Paul's reign. Too bad for some of the Vatican staff that it was still in use during the reign of John XXIII, who it must have been quite a penance to carry.
The Vatican undoubtedly has plenty of crowns - but is there any reason Benedict cannot have a coronation if he so chooses? Nothing in my substantial liturgical library treats of that in particular.
Sigh Presumably the Mass on Sunday is going to be televised... and, no matter how much I'm grumbling today or shall grumble later, I just know that I'm going to be watching it... suppose I'll have to make a spiritual communion that day.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
... suppose I'll have to make a spiritual communion that day.
The arms of your Holy Mother the Church are ever open.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
I'd bet my bottom dollar there'll be no coronation.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Wow! That tiara almost outdoes the Orthodox in spectacular headgear........
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I'd bet my bottom dollar there'll be no coronation.
Disappointing - it would be a lovely show. And having seen the crown I really think it should come out for an airing occasionally. I know it's hardly daywear, but perhaps he could slip it on for film premiers, awards' ceremonies and the like.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
We'll just have to wait until Liz snuffs it and Charlie becomes king before we see a Coronation I suppose.
Trisagion, you're a spoil-sport! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
This one makes me think of an old-fashioned christening gown (twice the length of the child/person wearing it). Though it does make the papal crown look rather innocuous and in scale.
this , though, evokes multiple brides adorned in red with ermine capelets ( ) approaching the altar.
Bad taste is timeless.
Jeepers, that kind of stuff can almost put one in sympathy with John Calvin.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
All the reports I have checked online make it appear that Benedict is going to officiate at a Sunday Mass, which seems to be his installation, but there is no mention of a coronation - we'll need to wait for King Charles and his princess consort.
Trisagion - I am about as Catholic as it gets ... the only reason I'll be making a spiritual communion is because I'll be watching the Mass on the television.
Hooker - why is Paul VI's crown in Washington DC?
[ 19. April 2005, 22:53: Message edited by: Newman's Own ]
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
There is no coronation. If I understand correctly John Paul II (or was it JP1?) Abolished the coronation ceremony.
A Coronation ceremony sounds a little too much anyway for a "Simple worker"
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
There is no coronation. If I understand correctly John Paul II (or was it JP1?) Abolished the coronation ceremony.
And now Benedict can do whatever he wants.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
There is no coronation. If I understand correctly John Paul II (or was it JP1?) Abolished the coronation ceremony.
And now Benedict can do whatever he wants.
Ah but he's a simple worker! Let's hope that he will do everything simply.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I'd bet my bottom dollar there'll be no coronation.
Why is that? Not suitable for a humble worker in the Lord's vineyard? Or because it's hard to bring something like this back once someone's done away with it? Or some other reason?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
A new tiara is confected for a new pope. I think Ben XVI gets the temporal layer too on account of his being German. He can be the Holy Roman Emperor as well.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
If he's Holy Roman Emperor too, can he call an ecumenical council?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I assume the Vatican thinks that it's called lots of them already, including Trent, Vatican I and Vatican II.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I'd bet my bottom dollar there'll be no coronation.
Why is that? Not suitable for a humble worker in the Lord's vineyard? Or because it's hard to bring something like this back once someone's done away with it? Or some other reason?
Because I know the man and it is simply not his style. His commitment to simplicity in his life is grounded in his commitment to "Put nothing before Christ" (from St Benedict's Rule) and one of his favourite aphorisms). He would see the pomp of such a coronation as deeply inappropriate. If I'm wrong, I invite all Shipmates to the solemn eating of my hat.
[ 20. April 2005, 05:47: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Well, that's the best thing I've heard about him all day, I must say. And from one who knows, which is nice.
I hope you're right. If you're wrong, I will have to figure out what one wears to an ecumenical Solemn Eating of the Hat service. One's own hat, I presume, just to rub it in. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
But the important question is where does His Holiness stand on lace? I was disappointed to see him appear in a really nasty Italian box pleated rochet yesterday, so I'm not hopeful.
[ 20. April 2005, 08:55: Message edited by: Fiddleback ]
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
It was pretty nasty wasn't it? However, I have hopes that the conclave was over before Messrs Gammarelli expected and so their tat wasn't in place. If you look closely, it seemd to me that Benedict was only wearing a black shirt underneath the rochet, not even a soutane.
We will soon know and, of course, we will soon know how butch he really is. Only straight priests wear lace nowadays.
Cosmo
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Archimandrite
Shipmate
# 3997
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Posted
Well, I must say, I nearly wept when I heard the news. It's an affront to my faith, it really is.
Why couldn't we have had a real Dark Side Tat-Queen Pope?
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 1580 | From: Oxford | Registered: Jan 2003
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Deon
Shipmate
# 609
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Because I know the man and it is simply not his style. His commitment to simplicity in his life is grounded in his commitment to "Put nothing before Christ" (from St Benedict's Rule) and one of his favourite aphorisms). He would see the pomp of such a coronation as deeply inappropriate. If I'm wrong, I invite all Shipmates to the solemn eating of my hat.
Well, the man is evidently a talented pianist with a love of Mozart, whose brother was Kapellmeister of the Regensburg Dom and Choirmaster of the Regensburger Domspatzen.
Perhaps we will have a Coronation - the Mozart Kronungsmesse sung by his brother's former choir. Now that would combine self-deprecation with exquisite good taste!
Cheers
[ 20. April 2005, 10:50: Message edited by: Deon ]
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
It just occurred to me that, with (I'm sure) a huge number of Germans in attendance, whatever congregational singing there is at the Mass will be the most robust on earth. I have never been anywhere that tops Germany for that (RC or Lutheran), so the crowd may make up for deficiencies in the Sistine Choir.
With that said... I hope there is minimal congregational singing and some wonderful choral and instrumental music. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Perhaps (and this is just a personal thought), considering the substantial percentage of Catholics who are in 'third world' nations, and who may be highly sensitive to past pain from colonialism, the symbolism of a coronation could have negative connections which would not occur to 'pomp and pageantry' sorts such as myself.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Perhaps (and this is just a personal thought), considering the substantial percentage of Catholics who are in 'third world' nations, and who may be highly sensitive to past pain from colonialism, the symbolism of a coronation could have negative connections which would not occur to 'pomp and pageantry' sorts such as myself.
I can't see why it should. Plenty of poor countries had kings of there own before we went and conquered them. Many still do. And plenty of imperialist countries - France, the USA, are or were republics. There's nothing specifically European or colonialist about monarchy or coronation.
There's nothing specifically Christian about them either & it gives out pretty bad singals about heirarchy and authoritarianism.
On the other hand I'm not RC and from my POV its little but a nice party I can watch on TV.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Maniple
Shipmate
# 2237
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
It was pretty nasty wasn't it? However, I have hopes that the conclave was over before Messrs Gammarelli expected and so their tat wasn't in place. If you look closely, it seemd to me that Benedict was only wearing a black shirt underneath the rochet, not even a soutane.
Cosmo
The first picture on the beeb website here shows Benedict wearing a soutane, but there is not much of it showing.
Will be seeing Messrs Gammarelli early next week - will ask Lorenzo what was going on!
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No Maniple, No Mass.
Better Together.
Posts: 178 | From: La Casa del Caffe Tazza d'Oro | Registered: Jan 2002
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maniple:
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
It was pretty nasty wasn't it? However, I have hopes that the conclave was over before Messrs Gammarelli expected and so their tat wasn't in place. If you look closely, it seemd to me that Benedict was only wearing a black shirt underneath the rochet, not even a soutane.
Cosmo
The first picture on the beeb website here shows Benedict wearing a soutane, but there is not much of it showing.
Will be seeing Messrs Gammarelli early next week - will ask Lorenzo what was going on!
Haven't followed up the Beeb picture, but the papers here carried a picture that clearly shows tight black sleeves and cuffs under the rochet -- certainly no soutane at that point (on the balcony) and certainly whatever it was, was black.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maniple:
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
It was pretty nasty wasn't it? However, I have hopes that the conclave was over before Messrs Gammarelli expected and so their tat wasn't in place. If you look closely, it seemd to me that Benedict was only wearing a black shirt underneath the rochet, not even a soutane.
Cosmo
The first picture on the beeb website here shows Benedict wearing a soutane, but there is not much of it showing.
Will be seeing Messrs Gammarelli early next week - will ask Lorenzo what was going on!
You are quite right. Obviously only had Paul VI's old one in stock when Benedict turned up.
Am watching the replay of Benedict's first papal mass on EWTN at the moment and it's not looking good for us tatophiles. Only two Swiss Guards near the Pontiff and no Chamberlains or Knights of S. Sylvester hanging around in morning dress. None of the Big Six lit on the High Altar. Nasty little movable Nave Altar with two candles at one end and a pot plant at the other. Bunch of young thugs acting as servers. Benedict in pretty horrible Gothic chasuble although I think, wonder of wonders, that he is wearing a proper alb and amice rather than a cass-alb (oatmeal weave). Deacon is, not to put too fine a point of it, shitting himself and can't open the Book properly. Plain dalmatic, a bit like a sack but proper alb and amice. Latin homily, not Italian.
More updates soon.
Cosmo
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
Well, it seems as though the homily is being missed out after all and we've gone into the Intercessions. Perhaps he will speak a little later but now we've gone into the Offertory.
And I can see that one of the people bringing up the offertory is not only a woman, but a woman wearing trowsers! Good God!
I'm sure you are all on the edge of your seats.
Cosmo
[ 20. April 2005, 14:16: Message edited by: Cosmo ]
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
The Sanctus is a cacophany as the Pontiff, as he did during the Funeral, is trying to sing along as well instead of leaving it the Cantor. Not only that but an incredibly tiresome commentatrix is talking over everything, translating the Latin into English and drowning out the Pope. Concelebrated mass.
Elevation of the Host and a good shot of a Swiss Guard doing his excellent left-handed salute whilst grasping his halberd.
Nice chalice.
Pretty impressive genuflexions for a 78 year-old.
Cosmo
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
The Chilean Cardinal Deacon, during the Concelebrants prayer, has just fucked up big time. First by not being able to read the Latin and then, worse, reading out 'Papa Giovanni Paulo' instead of Benedict.
It's the salt mines for him.
Cosmo
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
First bit of reactionary liturgical practice; Papa did the Fraction over the Chalice (as it always used to be) instead of over the Paten (as it now says in the rubrics).
Impressive how much of the Latin he knows offby heart rather than needing a book stuck under his nose in the way they do with the microphone.
He looks knackered tho'.
Cosmo
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
I see a lot of self-intincting going on. I thought Cartholicks didn't do that.
The tat doesn't even impress me. Maybe they should put an Anglo-Cath in charge of such things.
And, yes, the commentator needs to take a vow of silence. I've never heard such holy yakking.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
Here comes the Homily after all and it is in Latin.
As though any of you could give a monkey's curse.
Cosmo
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maniple:
The first picture on the beeb website here shows Benedict wearing a soutane, but there is not much of it showing.
Will be seeing Messrs Gammarelli early next week - will ask Lorenzo what was going on!
I think what has happened is that Papa Benedetto has chosen the smallest of the 3 Gamarelli cassocks, being slight of frame, and the sleeves simply aren't long enough. The delay between the white smoke and the first appearance suggested that there may have been fitting problems. For a while I even thought that they might have chosen Lehmann, and another Roncalli scenario was taking place.
Talking of whom piccies from the Mainz diocesan website show that some German prelates still wear proper rochets.
Has Cosmo performed the first quintuple post in Ship history?
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
All the Cardinals are nodding carefully and pretending that they understand more than one word in ten. Attractive accent
'Sister Janet', our commentatrix, has been shot or gagged, and we now have a male voice giving us a translation of the Homily. Long enconium on the virtues of the 'Great' John Paul.
Cosmo
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Here comes the Homily after all and it is in Latin.
As though any of you could give a monkey's curse.
Where on earth would people care about this more than right here on this board?
Now, please do tell me that there was no 'voice over' translation which is actually a paraphrase... It irritated me somewhat that, during John Paul's funeral, I could not hear Ratzinger's excellent homily because of just that.
As an aside... I always loved the warmth with which I heard people call out "Papa!" to Paul VI and John Paul. Why do I find that hard to picture with Benedict? (I tried doing it at the television screen for practise. It did not work, though I did say all the Italian and Latin prayers.) Maybe we all are too used to seeing Cardinal Ratzinger, and it's hard to make the transition?
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
Alas! 'Sister Janet' has not been shot or gagged but is instead having a quick cough and drag out the back of the studio. Sadly we can hear every moment of her coughing up her lungs. 'Father Kevin', our new commentator, carries on manfully and ignores a fine shot of an African Cardinal picking his nose.
Cosmo
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
So what television chanel are you lot watching? All I can find is cartoons and Carol Vorderman whom, in a distressing signal that I have entered middle age, I am starting to find quite attractive.
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
He's now telling us how good the Vatican Council was and how 'relevant' the documents are today. In other words, it's bye-bye Vatican Council II and Roll on Vatican III.
Cosmo
Posts: 2375 | Registered: May 2001
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