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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The papacy; do we need it?
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Pope John Paul in his encyclical "Unum et sint" (I think I have got that right .... it's a long time since I did O Level Latin!) asked all Christians to consider the value and role of the papal office. So, what's your angle on this. If you're not a Roman Catholic, might the papacy have a useful role to play in the future Church (however you want to define that)? If you are a Roman Catholic, what is your experience of the papacy hitherto and your evaluation of its possible future role?

[ 10. March 2003, 01:40: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Newman's Own
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# 420

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You're close - it is Ut Unum Sint, and I hope the board can accomodate the link to the encyclical.

But, as long as we're discussing this, let's not miss all the fun - here is a link to The Gift of Authority.

I'm not going to comment on either document until I see how this thread develops, but I had the oddest thought when I was reading the gospel about Satan's tempting Jesus with the vision of the kingdom's of the world. I had this vague sense of the Father of Lies tempting him to a sense of futility with "Only a handful of people in this world believe in your Father, and those few are Hebrews! Look upon the rest of this pagan world! Who is going to ponder the Trinity, your nature, and such - the Greeks?! And you certainly cannot expect that your message is ever going to have any impact in Rome!"

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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn


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PaulTH*
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# 320

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Father Gregory
I can see this one getting provocative! I think in any future reunification of the One, Holy and Apostolic Church, and I don't intend to attempt to define what that means here, there would be a good case for considering the Pope as the "first among equals" as the AOC is in the worldwide Anglican Communion. The Office of Bishop of Rome with its historical links to St. Peter has the historical pedigree to be the unifying factor in a new Church.

The present authorititave power structure of the Pope and the Vatican will never do in its present form for us schismatics. With all the corrupt, power crazed Popes we have put up ith in history, I for one would never be willing to agree to Papal infallibility. I know that you belong to a much more authority led chuch then I do, so I don't know how you see it, but on another thread you objected to people thinking they could have a "hot line" to God.

I can't agree with that. Although I reject much of what the protestant reformers said, that I, as an individual can come into a relationship with God, is IMHO their greatest legacy to us. When the church tells people that there is no salvation outside the church, then dogmatises and anathematises doctrine, along with excommunication for anyone who disagrees, the seeds are sown for corruption. It's too much power in high places that is so easily abused.

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Yours in Christ
Paul


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Nicolemr
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# 28

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no roman catholic bishop has any authority over me at all.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Frater_Frag
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# 2184

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I think that the papacy has a roll to play in christianity!

I`m a member of a High Church order in the Church of Sweden(SSB), and, as a evengelical, I can´t accept some of the teaching´s that Rome is dictating!

On the other hand, as a catholic I can´t accept all this heresys that began in 1517!
I refuse to think belive that the church can be devided into national-churches, ruled by earthly powers! Ie, I still belive in one earthly Church, under Rome!

But, the present role of the bishop of Rome has been hyped to far, the eastern churches prefer to consider him "Primus inter Pares", or, "First among Equals". Somehow, I think the truth lies somewhere between the present papacy, and that formula!

So, my conclusion is that a revised papacy, relivied of that hiddeous "Ex Cathedra" dogm, but on the other hand, accepted as the leader of the Church of this world, is the only way the papacy can be a unifying factor, bringing the divided churches together again!

Far-fetched? maybe, but only dreamers reach the stars!


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Theological Dissident,
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"Mammals have hair, whales are mammals. Therefore whales have hair... Shave the whales!"


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John Donne

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# 220

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Shall I 2nd guess you Fr Gregory? The Pope being the Patriarch of Rome would take his place amongst the other Patriarchs. (And if we are talking of the 'first among equals' traditionally this title belongs to the Holy Throne of Constantinople).
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Hull Hound
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# 2140

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quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Shall I 2nd guess you Fr Gregory? The Pope being the Patriarch of Rome would take his place amongst the other Patriarchs. (And if we are talking of the 'first among equals' traditionally this title belongs to the Holy Throne of Constantinople).

I agree, but I'm not sure about the Constantinople bit! Bede Griffiths, the radical Benedictine monk also advocated a more shared authority. I hope and pray that Catholicism adopts a more conciliar approach that moves forward from Vatican II and the centralising blip of JPII. Vatican II was the first step it must go further that will see Catholicism as part of a wider Christianity and search for God. Hubris is a high stool to slip off of, I hope we can climb down gracefully.

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ahhh ... Bisto!


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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
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Dear The Coot

quote:
Shall I 2nd guess you Fr Gregory? The Pope being the Patriarch of Rome would take his place amongst the other Patriarchs. (And if we are talking of the 'first among equals' traditionally this title belongs to the Holy Throne of Constantinople).

Uhmmm! I think the first amongst equals thing has already been settled historically by the Orthodox. If Rome became Orthodox again, she would have this honour. In any case, Constantinople is but a shadow of her former sense. If Rome was in this position then the whole thing about "primus inter pares" would be rather academic. There's no particular significance attached to ANY city detached from the Church's actual position in that city. The Patriarchate of Antioch for example vacated Antioch long ago and now operates from Damascus, (Straight Street!)

Dear Hull Hound

quote:
Bede Griffiths, the radical Benedictine monk also advocated a more shared authority. I hope and pray that Catholicism adopts a more conciliar approach that moves forward from Vatican II and the centralising blip of JPII. Vatican II was the first step it must go further that will see Catholicism as part of a wider Christianity and search for God. Hubris is a high stool to slip off of, I hope we can climb down gracefully.

What better example to follow than Pope Gregory the Great, that outstanding Orthodox Bishop of Rome? He regarded the use of the title "Ecumenical Patriarch" as hubris in the extreme. Perhaps "Vicar of Christ," (who says He's absent anyway), "Supreme Pontiff," (I know no other bridge builder than Jesus), and all the rest ought to go in the same trash can! If Rome can get its act together on this one, (which frankly I doubt), then that which it now fights for with subterfuge and ecclesiastical politics would be in its possession without any effort at all. But, sadly, .... we've a long way to go before that happens. With God, however, all things are possible.

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™


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Hull Hound
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
Perhaps "Vicar of Christ," (who says He's absent anyway), "Supreme Pontiff," (I know no other bridge builder than Jesus), and all the rest ought to go in the same trash can!

Nice one! Fr. Gregory, you've motivated me to find out more about Pope Gregory, and about the history of the Orthodox relationships.

Although these titles of self-aggrandisement are still bandied about by us plebs, haven't they been dropped officially?

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ahhh ... Bisto!


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Amanuensis

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# 1555

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
I can see this one getting provocative! I think in any future reunification of the One, Holy and Apostolic Church, and I don't intend to attempt to define what that means here, there would be a good case for considering the Pope as the "first among equals" as the AOC is in the worldwide Anglican Communion.

I'm looking forward to running this one past my baptist friends.

Only recently has the RC church admitted that other churches exist at all. This seems to me to be an attempt to remind everybody who the boss is, perhaps to encourage us nearer to the fold. Really it's difficult to see where it can lead.

I am happy to acknowledge the Pope's ecumenical importance, but it's on the basis that he is the head of one of largest Christian groups in the world, not because of some inherent authority that I have to acknowledge.

The primacy of Rome was cooked up in early times for the very same purpose of whipping unruly churches into line. It was counter-productive then, and it is now.

Excuse me, must take the pills now, I'm feeling a bit hot.

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What's new?


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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear Hull Hound

No, these titles are alive and kicking in the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church ....

"For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered." (Catechism of the Catholic Church 882)

Follow the link for Pope Gregory's teaching ...

Pope Gregory the Great

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
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Inanna

Ship's redhead
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The title which I think this present Pope likes to use, and which for me, sums up what the papacy should be is this:

Servant of the servants of God.

Kirsti

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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.


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Hermit3
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I'm a bit ambivalent about the Pope, wouldn't really accept his direction in any binding way but the Catholics do seem to have strong scriptural arguments for the idea of one leader of a unified Church. Of course this goes against our modern democratic impulses.

Let me play Devil's Advocate here, since everyone else will be beating up on the poor old Pope:
The Catholic Church is the only Christian church with unbroken historical roots, through the succession of Popes, to the church founded by Peter. "You are Peter, and on this rock I found my church." Peter eventually moved to Rome and was Martyred there.

Jesus said three times to Peter only to feed his sheep (NOT just SOME of his sheep.) Jesus established a clear hierarchy: Peter at the top, then James and John, then the rest of the Twelve, then assorted disciples and multitudes. We may not like authority, but Jesus founded one church with a clear leader.

(Hermit ducks and runs for cover.)

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Isaiah 55:8"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.


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Hull Hound
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quote:
Originally posted by Hermit3:
Jesus established a clear hierarchy: Peter at the top, then James and John, then the rest of the Twelve, then assorted disciples and multitudes...
(Hermit ducks and runs for cover.)

I don't want to down the Pope either but I wonder...

I've always wondered about that Peter, James and John muscling into the guest list 'A' slot, the squeeky wheels get the oil or leaders move to the front, I don't know.

[QUOTE Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
I think the first amongst equals thing has already been settled historically by the Orthodox. If Rome became Orthodox again, she would have this honour.
[/QUOTE]

Fr. Gregory, intrigued about he Pope becoming Orthodox, what does this mean and how would he do it?

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ahhh ... Bisto!


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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear Kirsti

quote:
The title which I think this present Pope likes to use, and which for me, sums up what the papacy should be is this:
Servant of the servants of God.

.... first used of course by the same saint, Pope Gregory the Great in the context of his disavowal of universal jurisdiction. It seems as though you can't have both. Many people like to pick and choose the bits they like from the Catholic Church. What many people fail to understand is that it is the whole package and that in no way has Vatican 1 been superceded by Vatican 2.

Dear Hull Hound

I am going to stick my neck out here because you very, very rarely hear Roman Catholics or Orthodox spelling out clearly an agenda for unity. These are only my ramblings and do not constitute the official position of my Church.

For the Pope to become Orthodox would mean that he would either have to resign as Pope, (hence disinventing himself in his office), or that the whole of the Catholic Church would have to return to Orthodoxy in which case he could stay in place. The crucial question is how the Catholic Church could become Orthodox AGAIN. Well, let's first say what WOULDN'T have to happen. Rome would not have to accept:-

(1) Any dismantling of the papacy once restored to its original function and the structure that supports it.
(2) Any wholescale replacement of rites, liturgies etc. The Roman rite could easily become the Western Orthodox rite again with a few important "tweaks."
(3) Any amendment to its calendar, saints etc. Perhaps a few of the more ecumenically dubious ones could fade from view though.

Rome would have to:-

(1) Restore the Nicene Creed to its original form minus the filioque. It it did insist there was still an issue it would by then have accepted that such a thing was for an Ecumenical Council to decide.
(2) Accept the Orthodox Catholic unity of the Church on its original model as a unity of equals with precedence of respect as to teaching and ecumenicity accorded to Rome as the "senior brother," subject to the agreement of the rest of the Church. The concordance of Pope Leo the Great and his Tome with the Council of Chalcedon is a good working model of this role of the papacy.
(3) Undertake a review of those dogmas lacking ecumenical warrant and in the meantime, cease to make them binding on the faithful, (eg., the Immaculate Conception). All must be subject to the papacy, Councils and people working in consensual union.

How much better a process like this would be than us all holding hands in Assisi, Geneva, Moscow & wherever, pretending we're one when we're not.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™


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Black Dog
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# 2344

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Hi FR G hope you are well, been a long time since we last had some learned discourse...

Funny You should say this, i speaking as a Catholic, was chat chatting with some chums of mine (also RC's) and we all agreed that basically out of all the religions (and this will seem like a complete contradiction but...) RC is the most stable, but also the most hyppocritical and hilarious of all religions. Why? because the Papacy says one thing, which is meant to be holier than thou, and then some of the common preists completely ignores it!

E.g abortion, contraception etc. 'you are strictly forbidden to use condoms... but then again its up to the individual.' etc etc.

Papacy = head of a special club that no one really pays attention to.

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The difference between love and comfort is that comfort is more reliable and true. Brutal and mocking but always there it is a crutch for enmity's saddest glare.


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hermit
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Purely as an aside, we may not need to worry much about the Papacy if St Malachy was right about his prophecies in the twelfth century. We only have two more Popes after JP II, then the Judgment.

266 John Paul II (1978-) 110 De labore Solis
(of the eclipse of the sun, or from the labour of the sun)
Hist.:Karol Wojtyla was born on May 18, 1920 during a solar eclipse. He also comes from behind the former Iron Curtain. He might also be seen to be the fruit of the intercession of the Woman Clothed with the Sun labouring in Revelation 12 (because of his devotion to the Virgin Mary).

267 ??? 111 Gloria olivae

268 ??? In persecutione extrema S.R.E. sedebit Petrus Romanus, qui pascet oues in multis tribulationibus: quibus transactis ciuitas septicollis diruetur, & Iudex tremêdus iudicabit populum suum. Finis.
(In extreme persecution, the seat of the Holy Roman Church will be occupied by Peter the Roman, who will feed the sheep through many tribulations, at the term of which the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the formidable Judge will judge his people. The End.) http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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quote:
Originally posted by thethinker:
Papacy = head of a special club that no one really pays attention to.

I do.

FCB

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.


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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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Um ... I think The Pope does have a role - as leader of a specific group of Christians; as someone with valuable insights and wisdom on living the Christian life etc.

I'm not sure about the authority thing either, but I would still take his word over some other peoples

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am


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Spong

Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
Father Gregory
I think in any future reunification of the One, Holy and Apostolic Church, and I don't intend to attempt to define what that means here, there would be a good case for considering the Pope as the "first among equals" as the AOC is in the worldwide Anglican Communion.


This is the line that ARCIC, the official discussion body between Anglicans and the RC church, took in The Gift of Authority, linked by Newman's Own above. My cynicism says that the only reasons there was not a greater fuss about it was that very few people read it, and those who did thought there wasn't a snowball's chance of it ever bearing fruit...

Despite attempts to turn Lambeth into a Magisterium, the Anglican approach to authority seems to me to be completely irreconcilable with the RC one, and that the ARCIC compromise is only possible because a) the Anglicans on ARCIC have 'gone native' and don't reflect the broad sweep of Anglicanism any more, and b) the RCs probably have a completely different idea of what 'primus inter pares' means in this context.

The idea that Anglicans are going to accept 'the possibility, in certain circumstances, of the Church teaching infallibly at the service of the Church’s indefectibility' (para 52) is simply wishful thinking. Similarly, I suspect that the idea of 'a universal primacy, exercised collegially in the context of synodality'(loc.cit.) is also going to be entirely unacceptable to RCs when it is understood that this might involve the Pope making pronouncements on behalf of the Universal Church with which he and the RC bishops did not agree.

quote:
Originally posted by Hermit3
The Catholic Church is the only Christian church with unbroken historical roots, through the succession of Popes, to the church founded by Peter.

On the contrary, virtually ALL churches can probably show such unbroken historical roots, in the sense that they are linked back into it - their initital leaders came from a church that was an offshoot of a church that... . They may not be able to show that they 'caught' their apostolic status by the conatagion theory, ie the laying of hands on heads by those who had had hands laid on their heads by those (...) by the apostles, but then it is at least arguable that the RCC can't either. The line of Popes before Sixtus is generally accepted as apocryphal, and the early church (according to Schillebeeckx (sp??!!??))used to say that laying on of hands was not required for those who had been arrested and tortured as Christians and lived to tell the tale.

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Spong

The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams


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Charles
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# 357

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As a Catholic, (RC) I see the pope as the spiritual leader of the Catholic Church on earth.
The Catholic Church has a pyramid hierarchical structure, priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals and the pope.
The role of the pope has changed throughout the ages.
Essentially the role is similar to that of the leaders of the other Christian Churches, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Moderator of the Church of Scotland, and the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church.
The papacy is essential to the understanding of the apostolic succession.
The Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church, as I understand it, fulfil the same function.
I see the pope, along with the bishops of the Church, as the arbiters of doctrinal matters, of the Catholic Church.
This leads naturally to the question of infallibility.
The use of infallibility is very rare.
It does not give the pope the right to concoct ‘a new dogma’ at the drop of a hat!
The ‘infallible statements’ are made after careful consultation with the bishops of the Church. They are affirmations of beliefs, which have existed or evolved in the Church over a very long time.

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Charles

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear Charles

quote:
Essentially the role is similar to that of the leaders of the other Christian Churches, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Moderator of the Church of Scotland, and the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church.

I wish what you said was true but I think this is a bit of wishful thinking. The papacy claims universal jurisdiction over the whole body of Christ. No matter how cuddly and holy any pope actually is, that's the role; that's the structure .... that's the problem! This is NOTHING like the aforementioned other ministers and their roles.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™


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Jus
Apprentice
# 1783

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I agree with Fr. G, the Pope is not like the ABC or the Orthodox Patriach's. The Pope's jurisdiction over the Catholic Church is quite different from the ABC. And since I am a Catholic, he has authority over me which I fully accept.


Hull Hound,

quote:
I hope and pray that Catholicism adopts a more conciliar approach that moves forward from Vatican II and the centralising blip of JPII.

I hope and pray not. I personally believe the Pope has to do MUCH more to ensure that his bishops do not start leading the faithful astray and bring scandal to the Catholic Church. Especially here in the UK with all the sex scandals. It makes the Catholic Bishops seem so incompetent. The Curia needs to come and sort this mess out.


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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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quote:
Originally posted by Jus:
The Curia needs to come and sort this mess out.

The Pope himself might be able to sort out some mess, but I'm sure the curia would only make matters worse.

FCB

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.


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Jus
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Agreed.
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Black Dog
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# 2344

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after thinking about it though its worth pointing out that i really do admire the pope, even members of my family and friends whjo some are strivt atheists admire his strength. And really i myself have to admire some of the effort he has made to right wrongs made by the catholic church in the past.

However do people really believe that the papacy itself wields genuine and significant influence of the catholic church at its grass roots level? in my experience it does not! Please show me otherwise!

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The difference between love and comfort is that comfort is more reliable and true. Brutal and mocking but always there it is a crutch for enmity's saddest glare.


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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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It depends on how "grass roots" you want to get. The pope has control of all episcopal appointments, and who your bishop is can certainly have an effect. Also, I think JPII has shown that a smart Pope can do a good bit to set a theological agenda, particularly for those who study in seminaries. I think the trend among younger priests to a more "conservative" (though I don't like that word in this context) attitude is in large part due to JPII.

So it is not like the folks in the pews read encyclicals or even listen to what the pope has to say about birth control, globalization, abortion, capital punishment or war. But the sermons they hear, the liturgies they celebrate, and the patoral care they receive are certainly affected in the long term by the pope.

Of course, there are often countervailing influences, but I think the influence of the pope is undeniable.

FCB

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.


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Manx Taffy
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# 301

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Some Anglicans - myself including - still afford the Papacy a certain respect, authority and even primacy without this being a formal relationship.

Their influence on Christian and world opinion is still significant and long may it stay so. I say that even though I have stuggled with JPII's "conservatism" but who am I to say that that wasn't what has been best for the world during his time.

I think the point about infallability mentioned above is very misunderstood by most people. As afr as I understand, it is only in very rare and specific circunstances that this applies. Not whenever he speaks e.g. if he says "hey Monseignor Roma are going to thrash Lazio next weekend" doesn't make it an infallable truth!


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Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
# 1143

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quote:
Originally posted by Manx Taffy:
I think the point about infallability mentioned above is very misunderstood by most people. As far as I understand, it is only in very rare and specific circunstances that this applies.

A "rare and specifically" infallible pope may only be a very small baby, but it is still a baby, and that's too much baby for many of us.

--------------------
Benedikt Gott Geschickt!


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Amanuensis

Idler
# 1555

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I recently heard the theory that the doctrine of papal infallibility has in fact weakened the authority of the Papacy.
The basis for this is the observation that it is extremely rare for (RC) theologians to universally agree that any particular statement is really ex cathedra. Therefore there are very few papal statements that can be regarded as truly authoritative, whereas in earlier centuries all his statements were authoritative, and nobody argued about it!

What do those in the know think of this?

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What's new?


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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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I see no reason at all to listen to someone who is both arrogant and silly enough to tell other people not to use contraceptives. Women, men and children in the world are suffering because of that.

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Black Dog
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# 2344

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ahh daisymay but the thing is that although the papacy says it is wrng to use contraception many of the lay preachers are pro choice! because they know that if they dont take the line of 'we are against abortion contraception etc, but of course its up to you' they would have masses of people turning against them! Its sort of 'you know what we think but you are free to make your own decision' and in any case i honestly believe that half of the common preists realise that realise that the stance of the papacy is a load of old boots!

This of course gives the other religions such as orthodoxy and anglicans the chance to cluck about double standards, but it seems to me that they are just as bad! So lets just conclude from this that all religion has its flaws and at the end of the day hierachial misnomers are endemic of every religion!

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The difference between love and comfort is that comfort is more reliable and true. Brutal and mocking but always there it is a crutch for enmity's saddest glare.


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Lou Poulain
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# 1587

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A sea-change swept over the RC church (at least in the USA) and the church will never be the same again. In 1967 Paul VI published Humanae Vitae, against the advise of the theological/medical panel John XXIII and he convened. Since that event (again, at least in the USA) the typical layperson has indeed determined that the teaching is nonsense. The North American Research Center, Univ. of Chicago tracks attitudes of Catholics toward contraception. In their most recent poll, 85% of Catholics disagree with the teaching. I believe that this is the primary contributing factor to the decline int he practice of Confession. When I was a kid the church heard Confessions on both Saturday afternoon and Saturday evenings, Sunday mornings before mass and by appointment - with all available priests hearing. In my former RC parish, they were down to one hour a week - one priest (twiddling his thumbs).

My parents believed that on questions of faith and morals, one must ask the priest. My generation believes that on questions of faith and morals, one might consult a priest, and might even pay attention to what he says. My childrens' generation are hard pressed to see any reason to ask a priest anything.

It's Pandora's box... They'll never get the lid on again.

--Lou, a former RC observing from the sidelines.


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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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quote:
Originally posted by thethinker:
ahh daisymay but the thing is that although the papacy says it is wrng to use contraception many of the lay preachers are pro choice! because they know that if they dont take the line of 'we are against abortion contraception etc, but of course its up to you' they would have masses of people turning against them! Its sort of 'you know what we think but you are free to make your own decision' and in any case i honestly believe that half of the common preists realise that realise that the stance of the papacy is a load of old boots!
hierachial misnomers are endemic of every religion!

Exactly.

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London
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sniffy
Apprentice
# 1713

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It's the old contraception is the only logical/proper/capable reality when it comes to limiting the number of children one has argument.

I like this argument against the pope and the authority of the church the most. As if religion and the God's everlasting spirit has always been a popularity contest. So, what we say today, more than 30, 40 or 100 years ago, is that the more people on the side of an argument, especially where love and the everlasting are concerned, makes the argument right.

I forget but didn't the crowd call for Barabus? Didn't all of Christ's apostles run away, except for John? Later the spirit came and roused them up, regardless of their weakness and misunderstanding. Popularity means something in public elections, TV ratings and the fashion world. This is about the body of Christ on earth.

I think the Pope means something today because its the best we can do on earth. We no longer have the Bride Groom (darn it - 'cause it would be easy then, almost no religion - just the reality of heaven on earth). Just in normal reality, everything needs a leader. By our own experience, we know that anything without a leader will eventually crash. (Boat without a captain, a busy intersection without a streetlight ...).

The Pope sounds like the duck, walks like the duck, looks like the duck so he must be the duck. Sure we can find reasons why he is not the duck, but show me who then is the duck? Is it each of us ourselves? Is it the richest person in the world?

He is the duck. Quack. Quack. Quack.

--------------------
sniffy


Posts: 31 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanuensis:
I recently heard the theory that the doctrine of papal infallibility has in fact weakened the authority of the Papacy.
The basis for this is the observation that it is extremely rare for (RC) theologians to universally agree that any particular statement is really ex cathedra. Therefore there are very few papal statements that can be regarded as truly authoritative, whereas in earlier centuries all his statements were authoritative, and nobody argued about it!

Except for the "nobody argued about it" part, I think there is a lot to what you say. Increasing precision in defining papal authority is as useful to those who want to avoid it as to those who want to assert it, maybe more useful.

quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
I see no reason at all to listen to someone who is both arrogant and silly enough to tell other people not to use contraceptives. Women, men and children in the world are suffering because of that.

I realize this is not hell so I should watch my language (see the language thread), but this is a load of crap. I've seen no evidence that the denial of contraceptives to people is a significant source of suffering in the world. Why don't you try war, capitalism, hunger, or some of the other more obvious candidates? And even if not being able to chemically or mechanically regulate our fertility is a source of suffering, who says that we cannot tell other people that they ought to suffer? Indeed, the role of the Pope is to call the church to discipleship, and the call of the disciple is to suffer, even to die (see Bonhoeffer).

Now you might (quite reasonably, I think) make the argument that contraception is not a matter of discipleship. And I might (quite reasonably) make the argument that in a world in which sex has been reduced to recreation and children are viewed as tools of self-fulfillment that it just might be. But the logic of:

"x teaches that we should do y"
"doing y causes suffering"
"therefore I reject the authority of x"

is as much an argument for rejecting the authority of Jesus as of the Pope.

FCB

[UBB fixed]

[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

--------------------
Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.


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Jus
Apprentice
# 1783

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Daisymay,
quote:
I see no reason at all to listen to someone who is both arrogant and silly enough to tell other people not to use contraceptives. Women, men and children in the world are suffering because of that.

What theologian declared in the 1500's that birth control was the murder of future persons? His name is John Calvin! Presbyterians and Baptists follow in his tradition. What minister in the 1700's declared that taking "preventative measures" to prevent conception was unnatural and would destroy the souls of those who practiced it? It was John Wesley the founder of the Methodist religion! Who declared that birth control was sodomy? That was Martin Luther, who began the Protestant Reformation and is the founder of the Lutheran tradition! What church group ruled in the 1600's that a church official found guilty of birth control was no longer allowed to hold his position? The Pilgrims! Up until 1930 all Christian churches condemned artificial contraception as gravely immoral. The break in nineteen hundred years of unanimous Christian teaching came on August 14, 1930 at the Lambeth Conference of Anglican bishops, which had condemned contraception in both 1908 and 1920.

So by your very own logic, you really shouldn't be giving a hoot about what the great fathers of the Reformation say. After all, they are silly and arrogant?


Posts: 18 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
# 1143

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quote:
Originally posted by sniffy:
It's the old contraception is the only logical/proper/capable reality when it comes to limiting the number of children one has argument.

I like this argument against the pope and the authority of the church the most


But one (in your view) weak argument against the papacy doesn't remove any other argument against the papacy.

quote:
Originally posted by sniffy:
I think the Pope means something today because its the best we can do on earth

Is he? We may be in more trouble than I thought

quote:
Originally posted by sniffy:
[QBBy our own experience, we know that anything without a leader will eventually crash[/QB]

The life for the RC Church can only get easier, just wait around long enough and all the Atheists, Baptists, Quakers etc will eventually crash and the papacy will inherit the earth.

quote:
Originally posted by sniffy:
.... a busy intersection without a streetlight ...


But an intersection with a faulty streetlight will have more accidents than one where there are some simple lines painted on the road and people get on with following them.

quote:
Originally posted by sniffy:
He is the duck. Quack. Quack. Quack.

And a right duck too.

--------------------
Benedikt Gott Geschickt!


Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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quote:
Originally posted by Jus:
Daisymay,
What theologian declared in the 1500's that birth control was the murder of future persons? His name is John Calvin! Presbyterians and Baptists follow in his tradition. What minister in the 1700's declared that taking "preventative measures" to prevent conception was unnatural and would destroy the souls of those who practiced it? It was John Wesley the founder of the Methodist religion! Who declared that birth control was sodomy? That was Martin Luther, who began the Protestant Reformation and is the founder of the Lutheran tradition! What church group ruled in the 1600's that a church official found guilty of birth control was no longer allowed to hold his position? The Pilgrims! Up until 1930 all Christian churches condemned artificial contraception as gravely immoral. The break in nineteen hundred years of unanimous Christian teaching came on August 14, 1930 at the Lambeth Conference of Anglican bishops, which had condemned contraception in both 1908 and 1920.

So by your very own logic, you really shouldn't be giving a hoot about what the great fathers of the Reformation say. After all, they are silly and arrogant?


This Pope was living in the 20th Century (and now too, of course) when it became obvious that women's health is drained by having loads of children, and that means they can't look after those children they do have, who've survived. He needs to have a bit more common sense.

I am not aware that any of the reformers you mention set themselves up, or were set up by their followers as 'infallible' in any of their pronouncements. One of the foundations of the reformation was the education of the ordinary folk and the encouragement to think for ourselves. I think that's part of the priesthood of all believers.

FBC, I think that someone who has held to such ideas about contraception, in the face of so much suffering, needs to be humble enough to submit to education on the subject. Of course there are other causes of suffering and poverty, but to add this one in is a bit of a last straw.

--------------------
London
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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Manx Taffy
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# 301

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Perhaps a RC can confirm, but I don't any of the Pope's pronouncements on contraception would be considered infallable?
Posts: 397 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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quote:
Originally posted by Manx Taffy:
Perhaps a RC can confirm, but I don't any of the Pope's pronouncements on contraception would be considered infallable?

Authoritative, yes. Infallible, no.

Daisymay,

I'm still waiting for evidence that prohibiting chemical or mechanical contraception is a significant source of suffering. And if so, does that make the prohibition wrong?

FCB

--------------------
Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.


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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Can I just move things on a bit? In the First Millennium the bishop of (old) Rome had a certain respect and teaching authority within the Church but NOT isolated from his brother bishops with whom he could only act and teach in concert.

Is it either desirable or possible that this role might be dusted off without (from an Orthodox viewpoint) the accretions and centralisations of the 2nd Millennium?

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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Russ
Old salt
# 120

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Yes, we need the institution of the papacy, but as it was intended to be, rather than as it has been interpreted by generations of (mainly) Italians. Over the centuries, far too many Popes have seen it as their job to lead, rather than to be a servant. We want someone more like St Francis and less like Il Duce.

Just as medieval kings were surrounded by courtiers, who gained their own self-importance from the importance of the monarchy, and were thus far more protective of the royal dignity than was the king himself. So John Paul II, good man that he is, is surrounded by an institution dedicated to maintaining the prestige and infallibility of the Papacy, with the most conservative organisational culture on the planet.

Let us, at the head of the reunified church that we long to see, have a Pope who is a holy man. Who writes no encyclicals, and issues no bull. Who resolves disputes that are brought to him, rather than initiating policy. Who appoints cardinals on merit rather than their "soundness" on disputed questions. Who drops in informally on Christian bishops and world leaders alike. Who can admit where necessary that he was wrong and his predecessors were wrong.

Someone who's more the ship's doctor than the ship's captain.

Russ

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas


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Hull Hound
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# 2140

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Authority and leadership (two different things) are important, we each need these in varying amounts. We all need heroes. I can’t remember any Pope except JPII so my thoughts about the Papacy are bound up with my opinions of him as a man.

Catholicism is a mostly Southern Hemisphere religion of the poor and if my respect for the office of the Papacy is not to dissolve further, then this is where the focus must be. The Papacy like any historic office faces the pressure to respond to the world to remain relevant, it also faces the pressure to fossilise into an eternal truth.

I like to remind myself that the Church is the People of God, often, all people. We only need the Papacy if it is effective. I need a hero.

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ahhh ... Bisto!


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Astro
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# 84

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quote:
John Calvin! .... Baptists follow in his tradition.

No they don't he persecuted the Baptists.
General Baptists have never been Calvinist.

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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)


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Astro
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# 84

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I have no problem with there being a Bishop of Rome it is when he wants to subject all other Bishops to his diocese that I have trouble.

--------------------
if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)

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Jus
Apprentice
# 1783

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Daisymay,

quote:
This Pope was living in the 20th Century (and now too, of course) when it became obvious that women's health is drained by having loads of children, and that means they can't look after those children they do have, who've survived. He needs to have a bit more common sense.

Christians have held on to an anti-artificial contraception view for centuries. Just because society deems promiscous sex to be the norm, does not mean that christians have to change its morals and teachings to suit what it considers to be wrong. As Christians, we are to set the standard. Christ calls us to be the "salt of the earth". (Matt 5:13). This change in Protestant teaching, that now upholds the morality of artificial birth control, should pose a major problem for any Christian. Why? You are affirming, in effect, that the Holy Spirit failed to guide all Christians in a serious moral matter for 1,900 years! This is an unreasonable position for any Christian. If for 1,900 years all Christian churches can be wrong about contraception then they can be wrong in anything.

quote:
I am not aware that any of the reformers you mention set themselves up, or were set up by their followers as 'infallible' in any of their pronouncements.

This is what Martin Luther has to say regarding Catholics protest about the insertion of the word "alone" in his translation of Romans 3:28.

[I]If your Papist makes much unnecessary fuss about the word (Sola, alone), say straight out to him, Doctor Martinus Luther will have it so, and says, Papists and donkeys are one and the same thing. . . thus I will have it, thus I order it, my will is reason enough. For we will not be the scholars and or the disciples of the Papists, but their masters and judges. We must once in a way act a little haughtily and noisily with these jack-asses.

From Luther's Own Statements Concerning His Teaching and its Results. Taken Exclusively From the Earliest and Best Editions of Luther's German and Latin Works, By Henry O'Connor, pp. 23-26.

If this is not tantamount to a claim of infallibility, then I don't know what is.

Now, I don't admit to knowing anything about you so I am assuming you have done some research regarding the Catholic stance on contraception, before you make a judgement that the pope is silly and arrogant. (BTW, I have non-Christian friends who have met him personally, and while they may not agree with his teachings they claim that he exudes humility nonetheless)

Regards


Posts: 18 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
# 1143

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quote:
Originally posted by Jus:
Christians have held on to an anti-artificial contraception view for centuries. Just because society deems promiscous sex to be the norm, does not mean that christians have to change its morals and teachings to suit what it considers to be wrong.

This appears to be saying

Artificial contraception = promiscuous sex

From this logically follows the idea that those who use artificial contraception are not only sinning but also, by definition, promiscuous.

I suppose that this fits with the idea that a married couple who do not use contraception, resulting in a pregnancy that is terminated, commit a sin. those who use contraception sin every time they have sex.

quote:
Originally posted by Jus:
You are affirming, in effect, that the Holy Spirit failed to guide all Christians in a serious moral matter for 1,900 years! This is an unreasonable position for any Christian. If for 1,900 years all Christian churches can be wrong about contraception then they can be wrong in anything.

An error repeated is still an error. Longevity does not give authority. For hundreds of years the Church, at various times and places, persecuted Jews, it did not make it right.

JPII - a nice man, great dress sense, but head of my church - no thanks.

--------------------
Benedikt Gott Geschickt!


Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Authoritative, yes. Infallible, no.

Daisymay,

I'm still waiting for evidence that prohibiting chemical or mechanical contraception is a significant source of suffering. And if so, does that make the prohibition wrong?

FCB


The evidence is in the deaths over many years of so many women in childbirth, the bad health they endured, & the effect this had on their other children and husbands. Also that if a husband was willing not to have sex, this caused a strain on the marriage. And many women were so afraid of becoming pregnant and tried not to have penetrative that their husbands raped them.

This does not sound to me like suffering that does good in any way.

A couple of generations ago, a woman in our family had 6 children who survived at least a few years, and nine more pregnancies that resulted in still-births and then miscarriages. She is not untypical of the type of suffering I am talking about.

--------------------
London
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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Manx Taffy
Shipmate
# 301

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quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:

JPII - a nice man, great dress sense, but head of my church - no thanks.[/QB]


QEII - nice lady, terrible dress sense, head of my church - no thanks - oh dear she is!


Posts: 397 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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