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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause
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matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278
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Posted
We're hearing a lot on the news at present of the terrible and shocking riots in London, and doubtless feelings have been running high of sheer outrage to the people who have been looting shops, setting fire to buildings and destroying livelihoods, homes and in some cases potentially even people's lives.
However, we do need to think that these are still people, and there must be a serious reason as to why they're doing this. I mean, after all, I personally don't feel the need to go and trash my local area. So, what are the underlying reasons behind this, and most importantly - how can we deal with them to stop this happening again?
Amongst the things I've heard as issues behind this are:
Inherent racism in the Met police
Potentially this was the first issue. There are many in the black community - and particularly the black community as opposed to the asian community - who feel that they are unfairly targeted by the police. Is this actually true? If so, what can be done? If not, what can be done to make it known that this is not the case?
Government cuts
They've flared up other issues, but are they partially responsible for this? Clearly the government has to make cuts - only look at the USA, Italy, Greece or Spain to show what happens without cuts! However, what can be done to cope with those who don't agree with the cuts.
Lack of opportunity
Potentially quite a hard one to deal with, but one that is quite definitely being blamed today. The people in question have no prospects at all in life and are wanting to take it out on someone.
Why is this largely coming from areas where there are large ethnic minority communities? That's another question - whilst it's far from exclusively one ethnic community, it does seem to be coming from those areas.
[ 02. December 2011, 09:20: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
Government cuts
They've flared up other issues, but are they partially responsible for this? Clearly the government has to make cuts - only look at the USA, Italy, Greece or Spain to show what happens without cuts! However, what can be done to cope with those who don't agree with the cuts.
The question is, if cuts are necessary, what should be cut and who should suffer? These riots are taking place in some of the poorest boroughs of a rich capital city, and the majority of people involved perceive themselves (probably rightly) as suffering disproportionately from the cuts after never really sharing in the rest of their city's wealth. Social facilities and youth work have already been cut back. People see MPs fiddling expenses, failed bankers continuing to reap big bonuses, a Government (and London Mayor) seen as living in a different world, so not surprisingly when there is an opportunity of looting they think 'only doing the same as that lot, only not nicking as much'.
None of this is to condone the violence of course. But it happened before in the early years of the Thatcher government, so nobody should be surprised.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Many of the government's cuts haven't actually been implemented yet, have they? It seems a bit rash to blame violence on cuts which haven't yet occurred.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
May I add another, briefly? I think it might even be the principal cause of the rioting (as opposed to the non-violent protesting): opportunistic thuggery and theft.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I have had the rolling BBC news on all evening, and two things have been said which stick in the mind. One is the degree of cuts to the council money in these areas by comparison with the more lush parts of the country. No riots reported from Dorset yet. Or Chipping Whatsitsname. It was said that Lewisham has had to cut 30% of front line services.
(Just watching the weather - no rain for a while, unfortunately.)
The second was Simon Hughes reporting that some of the looting was organised, and suggesting that police had the idea that some of the preceding action was deliberately organised to enable the looting, that the young people were being manipulated.
Penny
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
I don't buy into the idea that burning someone else's business, smashing up someone's car, stealing other people's property and destroying walls to thow concrete at policemen is someone else's fault.
Cuts and racism are serious issues and right to be debted somewhere like these forums. But too much of what's happening as I write is nothing more than opportunistic violence, wanton destruction, and looting.
OK - got that off my chest, calmer reflection now needed on the questions you've raised....
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
...there must be a serious reason as to why they're doing this. ...
(my emphasis)
A fallacy, I think. When you get a large mob of people together reason tends to be the first thing to go. So we really need to look into the motivations of the more conscious instigators.
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
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matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278
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Posted
I think the concern though is just HOW many people are involved in this. If it were just a small situation, I'd say it was mindless thugs, but are there really THAT many mindless thugs around?
Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Given the opportunity (and perhaps some deliberate incitement)? Most certainly, it would appear. Why? "Lack of moral fibre", I think it used to be called. I'm serious, by the way.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sandemaniac
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# 12829
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Posted
Somewhat tangentially, I wonder if it will affect the choice of anthem for the Olympics? Suddenly, an oldie is very, very relevant again...
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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Daron
Shipmate
# 16507
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Posted
The glamorisation of criminality and organised crime in popular black culture combined with viral social media trends is the root cause.
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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way
Posts: 427 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2011
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Quizmaster
Quick quipper
# 1435
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Posted
Bored youth with nothing to do and nowhere to go.
Anything is more exciting than that.
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The more questions I ask the more I ask fewer questions.
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The wise person does not know all the answers, but always asks the right questions.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
I think the concern though is just HOW many people are involved in this. If it were just a small situation, I'd say it was mindless thugs, but are there really THAT many mindless thugs around?
Not that many in any particular group showing up on the views from helicopters. Some of them don't quite qualify as mindful - there was a man with a large video camera filming people looting an off-licence, even going into the shop, and no-one stopped, turned away, tried to stop him, or behaved as though he was a threat at all.
But the number that there were is certainly scarey. Even when they have stopped, I won't feel quite as safe crossing Sarf Lunn'on.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Many of the government's cuts haven't actually been implemented yet, have they? It seems a bit rash to blame violence on cuts which haven't yet occurred.
If we know about them, they might, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I don't buy into the idea that burning someone else's business, smashing up someone's car, stealing other people's property and destroying walls to thow concrete at policemen is someone else's fault.
Cuts and racism are serious issues and right to be debted somewhere like these forums. But too much of what's happening as I write is nothing more than opportunistic violence, wanton destruction, and looting.
This logic would make the French Revolution all about the selfishness of the lower classes. The aristocracy had nothing to do with it; can't blame them at all.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This logic would make the French Revolution all about the selfishness of the lower classes. The aristocracy had nothing to do with it; can't blame them at all.
Are you making a serious comparison here?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
They aren't rioting at the gates of the gated apartments of the rich, are they? They are rioting at the shops of the middling and ruining the homes of the not very well off. Not the revolution yet.
Penny
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Why, yes. Yes, I am. Ramarius blithely dismisses any question of whether the violence in the streets is provoked by anything political going on: blame it entirely and only on the rioters, s/he says.
That's blind. If we applied that same thinking to the French Revolution, we'd entirely miss the Point. Why should it be applied here? It's an a priori justification of the political status quo, a washing-the-hands of any blame the power mongers might have for any of the rage of the people.
In a word, it's irresponsible and comes across as rather self-serving.
We need to look beyond "they're naughty boys" to find the causes of this. Naughty boys have existed for millenia. Rioting in the streets is fairly rare. Why now? Well, we can't look at the political situation and the way we're treating the poor, Ramarius is clearly saying. I'm saying, why not?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I do hope that the sentences when the cases come to court are proportionate by comparison with those for earlier protestors.
Penny
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The glamorisation of criminality and organised crime in popular black culture combined with viral social media trends is the root cause.
Those are certainly very real and very unfortunate trends in society today. But they most certainly are not the root cause.
<generality alert>The root cause remains being Black in a White world. Or more precisely, as a member of a socially dominated group, having to put up with the politico-socio-economic disrespect of the system doing the domination.</generality alert>
To understand this it helps to have been familiar with experiencing it, one might suppose.
The above statement is meant as an observation and does not mean it excuses the rioting.
[ 08. August 2011, 21:41: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
The root cause remains being Black in a White world. Or more precisely, as a member of a socially dominated group, having to put up with the politico-socio-economic disrespect of the system doing the domination.
Forgive me, but what on earth is this supposed to mean?
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Because none of that justifies this thuggish criminality. Way to miss the point. These are just mindless hoodlums out for a ruck.
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
<generality alert>The root cause remains being Black in a White world. Or more precisely, as a member of a socially dominated group, having to put up with the politico-socio-economic disrespect of the system doing the domination.</generality alert>
The first sentence here wouldn't explain the significant number of white people in the films of looters, although the second sentence might.
But yes, my guess is that what Matt Black says goes for the majority of those involved.
[ 08. August 2011, 21:49: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why, yes. Yes, I am. [...] If we applied that same thinking to the French Revolution, we'd entirely miss the Point.
And what is the Point? That the rioting youth are starving, repressed and completely without access to political representation or personal development?
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In a word, it's irresponsible and comes across as rather self-serving.
And the rioting isn't, right?
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Naughty boys have existed for millenia. Rioting in the streets is fairly rare.
Hardly! When opportunity arises, like at the recent student proetsts in London, people (especially stirred-up young people) do all sorts of stupid, violent things that have nothing to do with political injustice. This surely can't be news to you?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
This sort of stuff doesn't come out of the blue. There are problems with social fragmentation, family breakdown, poor academic performance, and unemployment. It bubbles over sometimes. The problems are endemic and need sorting out. I'm not sure how.
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Well, destroying local businesses is really going to improve the local unemployment stats!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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jrrt01
Shipmate
# 11264
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Posted
It is my understanding that cuts have already affected the original scene of the riots. In particular, the youth services have been severely cut. At the same time, the Educational Maintenance Allowance (EMA) was cut.
So you have growing unemployment (apparently 50 applicants for every job), with less money, less motivation to stay in education, and less to do if they aren't in education and don't have a job.
That's part of the context, without even looking at race. It doesn't excuse the rioting and looting. But it does make it far more likely.
(I seem to remember a Joseph Rowntree report from years ago that showed that the most cost-effective form of crime prevention was investment in youth clubs)
Posts: 62 | From: Manchester | Registered: Apr 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
I think the concern though is just HOW many people are involved in this. If it were just a small situation, I'd say it was mindless thugs, but are there really THAT many mindless thugs around?
There are seven million people in London. Probably around half a million teenagers. It doesn't need a huge proportion.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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rugbyplayingpriest
Shipmate
# 9809
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Posted
My guess would be well organised anarchists manipulating impressionable and angry young people via social media
Posts: 130 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomsk:
This sort of stuff doesn't come out of the blue. There are problems with social fragmentation, family breakdown, poor academic performance, and unemployment. It bubbles over sometimes. The problems are endemic and need sorting out. I'm not sure how.
Absolutely. But in order to avail themselves even of fairly equal opportunities (and they haven't often in history been more equal than now) young people need to have the kind of minimal strength of character that usually only comes with a tolerably stable and supportive background, a background of social cohesion and, well, discipline and decency.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The glamorisation of criminality and organised crime in popular black culture combined with viral social media trends is the root cause.
Except that loads of them aren't black.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
There's a section of British society that really, really hates the police. Look at the way Raoul Moat was lionised.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
young people need to have the kind of minimal strength of character that usually only comes with a tolerably stable and supportive background, a background of social cohesion and, well, discipline and decency.
All of which have been undermined by current (and previous) Government policies. Not that they are the only factor of course.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
young people need to have the kind of minimal strength of character that usually only comes with a tolerably stable and supportive background, a background of social cohesion and, well, discipline and decency.
All of which have been undermined by current (and previous) Government policies. Not that they are the only factor of course.
The current ones, though, have scarcely had a chance to have any such effect yet though! Previous ones, quite possibly.
I still think the main issue is the deterioration of family life, and I don't think that one can be laid at the door of govenment neglect of the poorest off - more likely in fact to be (in part) the result of well-meaning but misguided social "engineering" policies.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
These are just mindless hoodlums out for a ruck.
I'm inclined to think they are entirely minded - but just minds filled with different suppositions about law, rights, property, entitlement and self-definition than middle-class you or I. Behaviour is adaptive and rarely 'senseless' to those carrying it out. That 'sense' may be appalling to us, as burning people alive for their opinions now seems - but in the time and place (most) people agreed it was the thing to do.
Or you could say there was no 'sense' in The Troubles, but there were and are reasons nevertheless.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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jrrt01
Shipmate
# 11264
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Posted
quote:
The current ones, though, have scarcely had a chance to have any such effect yet though! Previous ones, quite possibly.
Within the past year and a bit the youth will have seen the youth services cut and their EMA cut (both immediately affecting them). This will have been in a context where they will be aware that bankers are still getting bonuses, where politicians have fiddled their expenses and where the press lie and cheat their way to stories. Other council services are being cut, and they are being told 'we're all in it together'.
If those with little perceive those at the top to be lying and cheating, it shouldn't be too surprising if some help themselves from JD Sports etc. Wrong, but not surprising.
Posts: 62 | From: Manchester | Registered: Apr 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The root cause? Autonomy.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
My guess would be well organised anarchists manipulating impressionable and angry young people via social media
An observation which would appear to have some support.
S-E
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"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
These are just mindless hoodlums out for a ruck.
I'm inclined to think they are entirely minded - but just minds filled with different suppositions about law, rights, property, entitlement and self-definition than middle-class you or I. Behaviour is adaptive and rarely 'senseless' to those carrying it out. That 'sense' may be appalling to us, as burning people alive for their opinions now seems - but in the time and place (most) people agreed it was the thing to do.
Or you could say there was no 'sense' in The Troubles, but there were and are reasons nevertheless.
Thank you, Firenze, you have expressed far more elegantly than I could what I was vaguely thinking!
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"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
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jrrt01
Shipmate
# 11264
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Posted
On the context for the riots, you can catch this prophetic video, filmed in London after the closure of the youth clubs but before the riots. It is the voice of a number of London young people. One predicts that 'there'll be riots...'
It is from a Guardian web page.
Posts: 62 | From: Manchester | Registered: Apr 2006
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Jigsaw
Shipmate
# 11433
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Posted
It'll be interesting to see whether this spreads outside London to other socially deprived areas where the cuts are already beginning to bite. I believe there was some unrest in Birmingham earlier tonight.
However, the idea that the cuts in public spending is/are a key factor in the violent disorder doesn't sit well with me. I can't believe that the looters and the arsonists are excusing their criminal behaviour by saying "it's because they've closed our local public library.."
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You are not alone in this.
Posts: 743 | From: Snorbens, UK | Registered: May 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Well, destroying local businesses is really going to improve the local unemployment stats!
Not to mention the loss of shops where people can buy bread and milk locally.
I notice that the rioters are not the family members who do the grocery shopping.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I don't think it makes much sense to say that the rioters are sufficiently politically aware to have major grievances against Government policy, but that they're not aware enough to choose targets that have any influence on the Government.
I say it's about the police. These riots started after a protest against police actions. Some people really hate the police. My guess is that the rioters are committing crimes because crimes are an act of defiance against the police. The specific targets don't matter.
[ 08. August 2011, 22:58: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
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Posted
Gangs of teens and older people are targeting department stores and other shops with desirable goods.
This isn't political protest!
This is selfish greed, and a failure of parenting.
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
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jrrt01
Shipmate
# 11264
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Posted
quote:
Gangs of teens and older people are targeting department stores and other shops with desirable goods.
This isn't political protest!
This is selfish greed, and a failure of parenting.
It may not be political protest, but that doesn't mean that politics hasn't contributed to it happening. It may be selfish greed, and a failure of parenting, but that doesn't explain why it's happening now, and why it started where it did.
There are selfish greedy people everywhere (see recent banking crisis) who can cause immense damage when out of control (see recent banking crisis). But what are the conditions that lead to riots? And in particular to these riots?
Saying that people are selfish and greedy explains one aspect of the riots. But only one aspect. And not necessarily the most important one for trying to prevent future riots.
Posts: 62 | From: Manchester | Registered: Apr 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
Gangs of teens and older people are targeting department stores and other shops with desirable goods.
This isn't political protest!
This is selfish greed, and a failure of parenting.
It goes back at least one generation then. Some of the looters in the Saturday riots in Tottenham were well out of their youth. If their parents are still alive they must be well into pensionable ag.
You can't blame The Yoof for everything. Who else is going to kill people in the national interest for a start?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Its not a riot. Its mass burglary.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Totally sporadic. Birmingham and Liverpool too now. I'm afraid to say that social media sites certainly seem to be being used to spread this.
How long before all sorts of horrible assaults and fatalities? People's businesses and local shops and homes are already amongst the premises attacked - neither the police nor other political targets seem to be high on the rioters' agenda.
If this is "really" about a burning sense of social injustice, it's being remarkably well concealed so far. It seems to be more about looting and burning buildings.
Jesu mercy.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jrrt01:
It may not be political protest, but that doesn't mean that politics hasn't contributed to it happening. It may be selfish greed, and a failure of parenting, but that doesn't explain why it's happening now, and why it started where it did.
There are selfish greedy people everywhere (see recent banking crisis) who can cause immense damage when out of control (see recent banking crisis). But what are the conditions that lead to riots? And in particular to these riots?
Saying that people are selfish and greedy explains one aspect of the riots. But only one aspect. And not necessarily the most important one for trying to prevent future riots.
They are opportunists. It's holiday time, more time to organise + warmer nights.
The only political aspect is that they don't feel they have much to lose if they get caught seeing as there are few good jobs around at the moment. But many others could say that & they aren't looting, it's probably more peer-group pressure, the "shame" of going home to mummy & daddy.
Now that people's neighbourhoods have been smashed they will see it is in their interest to take their children's behaviour more seriously, you can't expect "the government" to do it all for people!.
Prevention?
1) Society at large, parents especially must be a bigger / better "gang" than they are in.
2) Deterance - people that choose better behaviour will be chosen by future employers.
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
Now that people's neighbourhoods have been smashed they will see it is in their interest to take their children's behaviour more seriously, you can't expect "the government" to do it all for people!.
It's quite likely that many of the rioters do not live in the neighborhoods they are trashing.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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