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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: I have a real problem with Hell!
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
The Biblical place, not the forum. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
The absolute worst part of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that I find most repulsive is the very idea of Hell and eternal punishment. Lucifer is bad enough in being absurd, but Hell is the ultimate use of fear and intimidation to force people to believe something.
The whole story about Lucifer and Hell is like some English children's 19th Century song. First we have the head archangel turning on god and having an angelic war. Are angels really that stupid? How absolutely idiotic can you be? What angel wouldn't know the power of god and how could they possibly be jealous? Oh yeah, and how could angels be killed if they are divine creatures? Well, the story is right out of ancient Greek mythology. Zeus taking on Kronos and the Titans taking sides.
Anyway, I digress. Considering the very concept of god and his absolute control of everything, god creates Hell (or whatever twist you want to put on it) to punish the nonbeliever, why? Why would a god need his creation to believe in him? Why would god impose such a horrific punishment simply for not believing? It has to be the biggest self centered ego in existence and that is contrary to the very idea of a god.
A god would have to be absolute perfection and most certainly free of any petty human weaknesses (anger, jealousy, sadness, etc.). A god would know exactly why people do what they do and believe what they believe and simply understand without any need to judge. Every god on earth have the worst human traits and Hell is the combination of all those traits. The existence of Hell as an eternal place of punishment is an impossibility.
Inevitably people will quote the Bible, how nice, but totally irrelevant. If there were a word of god, he would only need one word (if that) to make himself perfectly clear to every single human on this planet. He sure as hell wouldn't need a long bag of confusing, contradictory wind like the "holy" books that exist.
Of course, I'm just getting started and there's much more to my criticism of the gods (all of them). I've been polite long enough in showing restraint, but religions and their gods are so remarkably destructive that I feel like really expressing myself. Sometimes it gets to me when I see Christians murdering people over abortion, Muslims cutting hostages throats, Hindus killing their infant girls and the blood never seems to end. The belief in Hell is certainly a driving force as it is the most blood thirsty of all.
Thomas
[ 08. January 2006, 21:59: Message edited by: Erin ]
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Canadian Phil
Shipmate
# 6202
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Posted
Wow, you must have really been holding that in ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Seriously, I'm not sure that I'm with you with your concept of God, although I do believe that there is something that matches what we call Hell (even if we can't know whether the descriptions are metaphor or literal). My response is to point that God, when he gave humanity free will, opened the possibility that we would choose to separate ourselves from him and turn to evil. And we did, in spades. That is what has separated ourselves from God, so it is a trifle unfair to blame God for that in my opinion. The thing with free will is that it isn't free unless we suffer the consequences of our decisions. Separating ourselves from God, who I firmly believe is the root and the source of meaning in this world, has as a consequence a denial of our own humanity and our own selves. That is as good a definition of Hell as I know.
We humans are incredibly good at corrupting things. That includes religion whose purpose is supposed to be to call us towards God. Sometimes religion does do that, but sometimes, as you point out, it leads to destructiveness. I would argue that those moments are defined when we shift away from God and towards an idol of our own making: power, ourselves, our community. Religion is used to justify a multitude of sins, but, then, I would argue so is pretty much anything that you can name. Heck, even democracy and freedom can be used as justifications for evil (witness the Iraq war). Just because we human beings are so messed up in our priorities doesn't mean that God is up there smiting us. We are very good at smiting each other, thank you very much.
Hope that helps.
Peace,
Phil
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"I will attend to the matter as only a highly trained Classicist could" from The Lady Killers
Posts: 222 | From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004
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voodoo janie
Apprentice
# 7083
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Posted
Here's my problem with hell.... and this has always been the thing I don't understand:
If you have to be "evil" to get there and Satan is the ultimate evil, why would it be punishment to go there? If you're a bad person who ends up in hell, wouldn't Satan celebrate you for being such a fantastic evil-doer? why would Satan punish an "ungodly" or non-christian person?
Now I don't believe in the concept of "Hell" at all, for this and many reasons. But above my own reservations - ultimately it seems to be an incorrect ideology, especially when applied to Christianity... I wonder why people fear it so, when the very concept behind hell is so flawed... any thoughts?
Posts: 4 | Registered: May 2004
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
The Biblical place, not the forum.
The absolute worst part of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that I find most repulsive is the very idea of Hell and eternal punishment. Lucifer is bad enough in being absurd, but Hell is the ultimate use of fear and intimidation to force people to believe something.
The doctrine of hell is used for that, yes. It doesn't have to be, though. For many it seems to be the best or only way of reconciling God's desire for humans to have free will and thus choose to reject God.
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...we have the head archangel turning on god and having an angelic war. Are angels really that stupid? How absolutely idiotic can you be? What angel wouldn't know the power of god and how could they possibly be jealous?
Maybe he didn't like God. It's surely a question beyond our scope, although...
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Oh yeah, and how could angels be killed if they are divine creatures? <snip> Considering the very concept of god and his absolute control of everything, god creates Hell (or whatever twist you want to put on it) to punish the nonbeliever, why?
They can't be killed, but the Bible says God created hell "for the devil and all the angels". Presumably, then, it (I don't actually believe it's a place) was never intended for humans to be punished in.
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Why would a god need his creation to believe in him?
He doesn't. He doesn't need us at all.
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Why would god impose such a horrific punishment simply for not believing?
He wouldn't. People choose to go to hell themselves.
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A god would have to be absolute perfection and most certainly free of any petty human weaknesses (anger, jealousy, sadness, etc.). A god would know exactly why people do what they do and believe what they believe and simply understand without any need to judge. Every god on earth have the worst human traits and Hell is the combination of all those traits. The existence of Hell as an eternal place of punishment is an impossibility.
A few points to make here:
1) God having human weaknesses: it's my belief that when God is said to have "anger" or "jealousy" in the Bible, it is because God has had his free self-giving love turned back onto Godself. They aren't human emotions, but simply our best description of God (he's hard to describe; the technical theological term for calling God by human standards is anthropomorphism)
2) God doesn't judge WHAT people belief, in my opinion. He judges HOW they believe.
3) What do you mean by eternal place of punishment? Because eternal places of punishment can go on forever, or they can stop if a person wants to stop punishing themself (in my belief).
I agree with you on the rest of the part you quoted.
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Inevitably people will quote the Bible, how nice, but totally irrelevant.
It would be nice if you respected the fact that Christians have as part of their religion read the Bible for greater personal spiritual comfort. We're not all psychos.
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If there were a word of god, he would only need one word (if that) to make himself perfectly clear to every single human on this planet.
Which is what happens when you die, presumably. You see God for who God is. The Bible says "we see through a glass darkly" but that in eternity we will see God fully. Can you suggest good alternatives to the way things are?
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He sure as hell wouldn't need a long bag of confusing, contradictory wind like the "holy" books that exist.
Why not?
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Of course, I'm just getting started and there's much more to my criticism of the gods (all of them).
You can criticise the Islamic or Judaic conceptions of God here if you want, but I doubt many will be that interested considering it is the Magazine of Christian Unrest. Try Beliefnet or whatever multi-religious sites there are out there if you want to criticise all the gods.
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I've been polite long enough in showing restraint, but religions and their gods are so remarkably destructive that I feel like really expressing myself.
I've been polite long enough in showing restraint, but religions and their gods are so remarkably spirit-building that I feel like really expressing myself.
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Sometimes it gets to me when I see Christians murdering people over abortion, Muslims cutting hostages throats, Hindus killing their infant girls and the blood never seems to end.
Yeah, me too. They're people. Like you or I.
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The belief in Hell is certainly a driving force as it is the most blood thirsty of all.
It has nothing to do with blood-thirstiness. It has to do with fire-thirstiness, silly.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Canadian Phil.
quote:
Originally posted by voodoo janie:
If you have to be "evil" to get there and Satan is the ultimate evil, why would it be punishment to go there? If you're a bad person who ends up in hell, wouldn't Satan celebrate you for being such a fantastic evil-doer? why would Satan punish an "ungodly" or non-christian person?
I made this point on another thread, but you don't GO to hell (in my belief), but you choose it yourself. It is punishing yourself.
quote:
Now I don't believe in the concept of "Hell" at all, for this and many reasons. But above my own reservations - ultimately it seems to be an incorrect ideology, especially when applied to Christianity... I wonder why people fear it so, when the very concept behind hell is so flawed... any thoughts?
I don't know why people fear hell. Does it matter? We're trying to show them heaven anyway, hopefully.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ronist
Shipmate
# 5343
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Posted
I'm not buying the whole Dante's Inferno theng either. And yes I think it was historicaly used to manipulate.
Posts: 827 | From: Vancouver Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
When people talk about Hell and Christianity in my experience, what they invariably mean is the Western juridical view of Hell. Thankfully, it is not the view of the Christian East. I've posted this before, but I will again. Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife.
[fixed the URL]
[ 26. May 2004, 20:22: Message edited by: Alt Wally . ]
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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voodoo janie
Apprentice
# 7083
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Posted
yes that is all well and good, but why would it be considered punishment at all for those who chose to be there...? wouldn't it be like the ultimate club medd afterlife for all the evil folk out there....
I'm a real proponent of the idea of choice. No need to sell me on that. I know that EVERYTHING that happens to us is the result of a choice made by someone (either us or another individual). And that there are repercussions for every choice that ultimately determine your life's path.
But what does that have to do with my original question? Why would it be punishment at all if it is where you belong? And you are with others like you?
(*again I want to reitterate that the concept of Hell is something I never will buy into. See the "am I going To Hell" thread started by Hunter.)
Posts: 4 | Registered: May 2004
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Voodoo Janie
Hell is our creation and not a punishment ... it is the self selected state of hatred and God-isolation.
Heaven is not a reward but rather both our natural and redeened state ... it is the state of love of God and union with God.
Hell has absolutely nothing to do with God. Heaven has everything to do with God.
Lokk what a risk God takes in giving us this freedom!
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Bill, I'm reluctant to really bash religion because there are so many people who are so damn good and people who so desperately need a god just to survive life. I owe so much to priests and ministers who have so selflessly helped me and so many others. Christians in particular give so much of themselves and I have the highest respect for them. But I am angry at things like the belief in Hell, sin, transgressions and judgment. They cause so much fear and hate.
As to god, how could total perfection and all knowledge possess the traits I mentioned? Why would a god need his creation to believe in him? Why would a god give free will, make "sins" so tempting and enjoyable and then condemn his creation for making the wrong choice? Is there really free will when man has only two choices; Heaven or Hell? What kind of choice is that? Why would separating ourselves from god even be a choice? If bonding with god is the ultimate, then why are "sins" so tempting? It's a very cruel game.
Man can give himself to god, be constantly tested and often made miserable every inch of the way or constantly feel the pleasures of sin. It's like offering a child canned spinach and the neglect of a mother or living in a candy shop. The love of god is much better, but you have to wait until you die to really get that love. The reward is all a promise with the expectation of pure blind faith.
My name isn't Thomas for nothing. I want to see before I believe. I have to know the truth without any doubt. People should have the right to know that god's love is better than "sin". And not some wishy-washy blind faith thing either. Hell, anyone can have blind faith that a rock is god, but that doesn't make it god.
If god were real, an honest person who needed to know he exists wouldn't be subjected to all this "in your heart" crap. It would take less than a hundredth of a second to answer such a humble and simple question, "Do you exist?", but I sure as hell didn't receive that. The easiest thing in the world is to want to believe so bad that you make yourself believe and feel. Forget that! If I wanted to do that, I’d take drugs.
I agree that man is incredibly good at corrupting things, but I don't see any god helping us one little bit to correct that. "Holy" books sure don't help with their contradictions of; love one another, kill one another. This contradiction will inevitably cause religion to run amuck and shows a very serious flaw in the whole idea of god. A true god would be quite a bit more helpful so that wouldn't happen.
I have no idea what you mean by, "those moments are defined when we shift away from God and towards an idol of our own making: power, ourselves, our community.". What do you mean, "shift away from god"? What possible state of existence could that be without at least some power, sense of ourselves and the support of community? You take the most natural and healthy things that man has and pervert them as idols.
I do agree that we do indeed "smite each other" and no help from any god in the process. We are a young species who has a lot to learn. We learn in many ways, including and especially conflict. But learning and growing is a very slow and painful process. There are no easy answers or simple solutions like gods that will help us grow. We are on our own and no divine parent is there to help us. Gods are for children... as every religion clearly states. One day we will not be children or sheep and any kind of divine plaything. One day the gods will die because we won't need them anymore.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by voodoo janie:
yes that is all well and good, but why would it be considered punishment at all for those who chose to be there...?
Living in denial and rejection of the source of everything that is? I'd feel like I was punishing myself.
I don't think you can ever "belong" in a hellish state, because you are choosing against the ultimate Trinitarian community.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
voodoo janie -
There is a nice little tale whose origins I can't remember and which I will no doubt not be able to tell as well as I should. However, it goes something like that:
A visitor is taken to Hell. It is, essentially, a large room in which all the people are seated around a table. In the middle of the table is a pot of the most wonderful food ever created. However, all of the people around the table are wailing in pain and hunger because they are starving to death. They have spoons to eat the food with, but the handles of the spoons are so long that they cannot hold the handle and get the food into their mouths.
The visitor is taken to heaven. It is basically the same room. Same table, same food, same spoons. However, the people are joyous and laughing and having a grand old time of it. The difference?
Since they could not feed themselves, they used their spoons to feed each other.
When you're ignorant and selfish, being surrounded by people exactly like you is nothing like being at Club Med.
say
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Oh man! You're blowing my mind with this new (to me) concept of Hell. That is so cool! It is refreshing to experience a whole new perspective. All I've heard about Hell was the infernal, fire and brimstone thing. However, I do find it hard to believe that very many Christians subscribe to Hell being a fun sinful place.
So, let me see if I get this right. People like rapists, child molesters, mass murderers and so forth get to enjoy themselves for eternity? What about their victims? Something tells me they aren't going enjoy their sins that way. Those who like to rape and kill children, um, why would children be in hell?
Sorry, I don't buy this one. I think that if this was a proven fact, there would be very few Christians left... they'd all want to go to hell. I know I would. My sins aren’t real bad, but I sure wouldn't mind having nonstop orgies for eternity. Someone pass the grapes. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
PS. Ophthalmos: You have some interesting points that I would enjoy discussing, but I have to figure this UBB stuff out in selecting quotes. Hopefully I can figure that out today.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
One day the gods will die because we won't need them anymore.
Human greatness is the requisite component of idealogical atheism, and it of course requires rejection of "gods" of any sort. Mixed reviews on it for the 20th century, we'll see what the 21st holds. I'm not optimistic, as the Jesuit Henri du Lubac said "It is not true, as is sometimes said, that man cannot organize the world without God. What is true is that, without God, he can only organize it against man."
janie, Fr. G. pretty much summed up what I would have said. It is existance without meaning and self-isolation that is the state of "Hell".
One example I usually think of is that of monastics. In Orthodoxy, the men and women who take up this life are regarded as the nearest to God among humans. They renounce the trappings and material comforts of the world. They observe the liturgy of time, meaning a continual routine of daily offices at all times thoughout the day. They keep no secrets from their spiritual elders and submit completely to the authority of that elder. Their life is one of complete communion God, of unceasing prayer. The eremitic life is that of total abandonment of the self and the direct experience of God. Ask most people, and they would probably tell you that sounds like their idea of Hell.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
saysay: What makes you think people who don't accept god are ignorant and selfish? I've certainly seen my share of ignorant and selfish Christians... ah, but they aren’t "true" Christians, right?
You're little tale sounds so impressive, but it doesn't take much to see that it represents nothing and has so substance or reality to it.
The Christian belief is that you have to accept Jesus as the son of god and you can be as ignorant and selfish as you want and still get to heaven. It can be claimed that once you "see the glory" you won't be ignorant and selfish, but the reality is quite to the contrary.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I've always had trouble with the concept of Hell and a loving God, so a while back I started a thread on Hell. I don't know that I have any more to say at this point, but I thought I'd share the link.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
ThomasDF -
Please note that I didn't say that people who don't believe in G-d are ignorant and selfish. I was trying to point out that, when you sin, often it is not very fun to be surrounded by people who act exactly like you.
I'm a little surprised that you are posting on this website and still referring to the "Christian belief" as if it were some monolithic entity when there is really quite a lot of diversity and disagreement. I'm not particularly interested in laying out my theology here, but I actually believe that ultimately G-d is nondual, meaning that heaven and hell do not exist; I'm also a universalist, meaning that I ultimately think that all people, regardless of their beliefs or actions, will be saved. There are any number of people on this site who would argue these points endlessly with me (if they haven't lost the will to argue by endlessly arguing against others).
I grew up in the Bible-thumping USA South where some people tend to use G-d like a stick to beat you with, so I think I have some sympathy for where you're coming from - I avoided Christianity like the plague for quite a while. However, I'm not sure you're going to get much out of this sight unless you listen to what people are actually saying and what they actually believe instead of assuming you know. Believe it or not, but some people think of the doctrines we hold and the stories we use to try to teach each other about G-d as useful tools. We need them because we are incapable of seeing G-d face to face, and they are very useful and help us to teach each other about the glimpse of G-d we've gotten. They may be imperfect, but they're what we've got, and we'd like to try to make the best of them.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by voodoo janie:
yes that is all well and good, but why would it be considered punishment at all for those who chose to be there...? wouldn't it be like the ultimate club medd afterlife for all the evil folk out there....
You mean like the proverbial "honor among thieves?"
But what if infighting and non-co-operation were of the nature of evil? Then put a lot of evil people together, and they don't enjoy themselves for long. They're soon at one another's throats. Look at prisons in which people guilty of evil are concentrated. They fear one another as much as the jailers.
Contrast that, perhaps, with prisoners of war, inmates confined not because of particular evil they've done, but simply because they were on the other side. When Olivier Messiaen was a prisoner of war, he composed one of his masterpieces, "Quartet for the end of time." He and fellow inmates practiced and performed it and the other inmates listened. Put good people together and they make chamber music. But certain other people-- hardly known for it.
One of the ways in which Lord of the Rings is a work of Christian apologetics is the manner in which the orcs treat one another. With all their numbers and their strength, they might have won if their efforts were more unanimous.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anna Bay
Apprentice
# 7038
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Posted
hell? my definition would be being stuck in traffic in a carpool with a bunch of screaming children? I think that defines hell rather well? anyone want to trade places?
Posts: 17 | From: middle earth | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
I'm trying to figure this UBB thingy out and I've tested it. I hope it works this time.
quote:
Originally posted by Ophthalmos:
The doctrine of hell is used for that, yes. It doesn't have to be, though. For many it seems to be the best or only way of reconciling God's desire for humans to have free will and thus choose to reject God.
I'm thinking the belief is a bit more important than leaving it up to doctrine. Who cares what is best for people? I thought the whole idea was to know god and his expectations and that seems remarkably vague.
quote:
Maybe he didn't like God. It's surely a question beyond our scope, although...
Maybe Lucifer didn't like god??? Is this guy brain dead? No question is beyond our scope. The problem is that religious people simply don't ask enough questions. Claiming "beyond our scope" or the mysteries of god is just another way of saying "I don't know and I don't care to find out.". If god gave us the ability ask questions, then any real god would provide the answers.
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They can't be killed, but the Bible says God created hell "for the devil and all the angels". Presumably, then, it (I don't actually believe it's a place) was never intended for humans to be punished in.
Every wonder why he's called the Devil and all those other names? Shouldn't Lucifer be good enough? I could have sworn that the battle in heaven killed a lot of angels, but I guess I could be wrong.
So why all the talk of people going to hell if it isn't intended for people? And where do all the bad people go?
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He doesn't. He doesn't need us at all.
Now you really have me confused. Who does he need and why? If he doesn't need his creation to believe in him, then why is that the Only way to get to heaven?
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He wouldn't. People choose to go to hell themselves.
So, if I don't believe in god and don't want to hell, I don't have to? This isn't what the Christians I've seen believe and I've seen a lot of different denominations.
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A few points to make here:
1) God having human weaknesses: it's my belief that when God is said to have "anger" or "jealousy" in the Bible, it is because God has had his free self-giving love turned back onto Godself. They aren't human emotions, but simply our best description of God (he's hard to describe; the technical theological term for calling God by human standards is anthropomorphism)
A very interesting point. The problem here is that the Biblical god actions sure don't look like these emotions are any different that human. God did a lot of killing, including many innocent people and that sounds more human than god-like. There were thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of young children in places like Sodom, Gomorrah and Jericho. Sounds like a fierce temper tantrum so irrational that even newborns were slaughtered.
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2) God doesn't judge WHAT people belief, in my opinion. He judges HOW they believe.
But again, the requirement for Christians is to believe that Jesus is the son of god. Once you do that, nothing else keeps you from heaven. I was a born again Christian and by that belief I am going to heaven no matter what or how I believe now.
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3) What do you mean by eternal place of punishment? Because eternal places of punishment can go on forever, or they can stop if a person wants to stop punishing themself (in my belief).
I've never heard this from a Christian before. The term "eternal" in forever and does not have a stopping point. I don't understand this voluntary hell thing. Could you explain it to me?
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It would be nice if you respected the fact that Christians have as part of their religion read the Bible for greater personal spiritual comfort. We're not all psychos.
I totally agree with you and that is why this discussion is so rare for me. I have no desire to attack innocent religious people. I do believe that the psychos are few, but significant enough to reek havoc. Also, I suppose I'm in need of expressing what I have suppressed for so long. If I thought for one minute that this discussion in any way disturbed an innocent religious person, I would stop immediately.
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Which is what happens when you die, presumably. You see God for who God is. The Bible says "we see through a glass darkly" but that in eternity we will see God fully. Can you suggest good alternatives to the way things are?
Anytime that I see god I will give myself and all my love to him, but not until then. That is the only alternative. Especially for a god, it is such a small thing to ask.
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Why not?
Well figure it out. We're talking about god here, right. He's sure not like me who is so long-winded it's disgusting. Words are for communication and only an inept species needs to try so hard to communicate that it needs libraries. A god would be able to communicate exactly and in an instant. That what a god would be able to do or he wouldn't be a god.
quote:
You can criticise the Islamic or Judaic conceptions of God here if you want, but I doubt many will be that interested considering it is the Magazine of Christian Unrest. Try Beliefnet or whatever multi-religious sites there are out there if you want to criticise all the gods.
I hate to tell you, but the Judaic and Islamic god is the very same one the Christians believe in. As you should know, the Christian Old Testament is the Jewish Talmud. Even in Islam, they see Jesus as a holy many and very sacred.
quote:
I've been polite long enough in showing restraint, but religions and their gods are so remarkably spirit-building that I feel like really expressing myself.
I certainly hope so and what I hope for. Beliefs should never be timid. I admire and respect strong beliefs.
quote:
Yeah, me too. They're people. Like you or I.
True, but religious fanaticism seems to be the most brutal over all.
quote:
It has nothing to do with blood-thirstiness. It has to do with fire-thirstiness, silly.
Okay, you got me on that one. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally. :
Human greatness is the requisite component of idealogical atheism, and it of course requires rejection of "gods" of any sort. Mixed reviews on it for the 20th century, we'll see what the 21st holds. I'm not optimistic, as the Jesuit Henri du Lubac said "It is not true, as is sometimes said, that man cannot organize the world without God. What is true is that, without God, he can only organize it against man."
Ideological atheism is a meaningless and down right boring anti-religion. One of the scummiest human beings on earth I have ever seen was that Marxist bitch Madeline Murry O'Hara. I am so glad she is dead, but even her carcass would pollute a grave yard.
I don't call myself atheist because it is a label I really dislike and implies a desire to destroy religion. Proclaimed atheists are even worse than the Baptist preacher of the church of was brought up in. I wouldn't give the time of day to an ideological atheist, let along hold a discussion with one.
Unlike the atheist, I do not believe life ends after death. I do believe in a soul. I just think that people have the god thing wrong. I have the feeling that the reality, the truth is even bigger than a god.
As to those "mixed reviews", you're way too early. We're a very young species and it will take a few more thousand years to really grow up. As to your Jesuit, I wouldn't expect him to say anything else, but Jesuits are the educators that also consider science and humanity. But I have to disagree with him and think he has it all backwards.
quote:
janie, Fr. G. pretty much summed up what I would have said. It is existance without meaning and self-isolation that is the state of "Hell".
As has been pointed out, there are a kazillion different beliefs in what hell is. You would think something as grand as a god would have made it very clear as to what it is. I love a mystery as much as the next person, but not when it comes to the eternal disposition of my soul.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Please note that I didn't say that people who don't believe in G-d are ignorant and selfish. I was trying to point out that, when you sin, often it is not very fun to be surrounded by people who act exactly like you.
Excuse me, but that's exactly what you said, I used your words.
What makes you think that sinners would be so repulsed by each other? I believe sex is very healthy and see nothing wrong with people enjoying it with many other people. Do you actually think I wouldn't have fun surrounded with people exactly like me (actually, that would be a requirement)?
FYI (A Public Service Announcement), no I'm really not what some would regard as a pervert. I have never been to an orgy and really don't care for that sort of thing. But I do believe sex is healthy and see nothing wrong with enjoying it outside marriage, but I am very selective and rarely practice it. I know, I'm still a horrible sinner, but not as bad as some may have gotten an impression of. I partly say this because I don't want the impression that I'd go after the gals at every opportunity. That sort of Internet stuff is sick.
quote:
I'm a little surprised that you are posting on this website and still referring to the "Christian belief" as if it were some monolithic entity when there is really quite a lot of diversity and disagreement.
I don't know, it might have something to do with this being a Christian site. The diversity of beliefs makes for very interesting and stimulating discussions. I really enjoy hearing the different beliefs and perspectives. It's all about learning and understanding.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
A god would be able to communicate exactly and in an instant.
Well, from the Quaker Perspective™ that is exactly what God does, and it doesn't depend on your believing in any particular theology--it's just that we aren't always so good at listening.
As for Hell, I have no fixed opinion except that if it exists, it's voluntary. (Can you imagine Madelyn Murray O'Hare accepting an invitation to Heaven if it were offered?)
Timothy
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
What makes you think that sinners would be so repulsed by each other? I believe sex is very healthy and see nothing wrong with people enjoying it with many other people. Do you actually think I wouldn't have fun surrounded with people exactly like me (actually, that would be a requirement)?
If you're gay, anyway. Otherwise, they'd at least need to be the opposite sex. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I don't doubt that there is something equivalent to sex in heaven. In fact, I'm counting on it, because I'm sure not getting much down here, and it seems God doesn't want me to ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
You say you like sex, but you're very selective and don't participate in orgies, even though they are among the prime opportunities to get sex with nothing else. So maybe a something else is essential for you, too. But of course, that brings in a lot of other considerations, like relationships, and the possibility for relationships either developing or turning sour for countless reasons. Maybe some here will conform to the stereotype of a finger-wagging Christian prig and consign you to hell just for sex, but many others are not among them. In fact, you can count me as among those who "have a big problem with hell" as it is customarily depicted-- without being quite convinced that it doesn't exist.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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TxGal
Apprentice
# 6984
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Posted
quote:
Thomas DF said:
"Who does he need and why? If he doesn't need his creation to believe in him, then why is that the Only way to get to heaven?"
Well, if I didn't believe in God, then how in the world would I recognize heaven if I got there? All the people playing harps?
Seriously, I suspect that the fire-and-brimstone image of Hell that we've had pushed down our throats all our lives is just an attempt at creating a graphic image. I find that whenever we discuss forgiveness, it is a lot easier to accept the idea that God could forgive me than it is to forgive myself. I rather expect that if I were to die without fully accepting that forgiveness, then I wouldn't allow myself to enter into the presence of God ("heaven") even if I was assured by others that it was OK for me to do so, thereby condenming myself to eternal separation from God ("hell"). And the idea of spending eternity with a group of people who, like me, cannot forgive themselves, is indeed hell.
[Edited in quote UBB. There's a useful "Practice your UBB thread" in the Styx]
[ 27. May 2004, 01:00: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
Posts: 7 | From: Buda, TX, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Thomas
quote:
I don't call myself atheist because it is a label I really dislike and implies a desire to destroy religion.
Then I misunderstood your position, although you seem to be careening between several different topics all at once even though this thread is about Hell.
quote:
As to those "mixed reviews", you're way too early. We're a very young species and it will take a few more thousand years to really grow up. As to your Jesuit, I wouldn't expect him to say anything else, but Jesuits are the educators that also consider science and humanity. But I have to disagree with him and think he has it all backwards.
Personally, and just personally, I think the idea of human progress is illusory and false. Just as false as the notion that there is a God that exists to satisfy human notions of justice. Humans have shown an incredible power to create, and an equally incredible predeliction to destroy. Perhaps du Lubac was waxing polemic in his statement, or maybe he was too deeply influenced by the recent horrors of totalitarianism he had witnessed in Europe. I don't think he was wrong though, when we turn our back on God it is inevitable that we turn on each other.
quote:
As has been pointed out, there are a kazillion different beliefs in what hell is. You would think something as grand as a god would have made it very clear as to what it is.
I think you're saying a good God would not let differing or false ideas of Hell develop. The alternative is that God forces the belief on us and "lovingly" does not let us fall into error. That would simply be as meaningless as existence without God.
[ 27. May 2004, 00:54: Message edited by: Alt Wally . ]
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon
If you're gay, anyway. Otherwise, they'd at least need to be the opposite sex.
Exactly like me in my thinking, not anatomically. Sheeesh
quote:
I don't doubt that there is something equivalent to sex in heaven. In fact, I'm counting on it, because I'm sure not getting much down here, and it seems God doesn't want me to
Then just forget it, I don't want to go to heaven! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
The more people talk about this the more hell sounds like a great place. I am quickly losing my whole perception of hell being Dante's inferno. Dang, are Christian's losing their touch or what?
I really don't understand why sex is such a big deal to so many religious people. I don't even think it's worthy of much discussion, it's natural.
So much for this tidbit, I'm more interested in all these perceptions of hell.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure :
Well, from the Quaker Perspective™ that is exactly what God does, and it doesn't depend on your believing in any particular theology--it's just that we aren't always so good at listening.
Quaker? My highest respect is for Quakers. At least those I've known have been the gentlest people. I've never seen hypocrisy from them or religious fervor. Never mind what I say, your belief is good and healthy and with Quakers, I just listen.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TxGal :
Well, if I didn't believe in God, then how in the world would I recognize heaven if I got there? All the people playing harps?
No harps!? I LOVE harps. How dare you even suggest there are no harps in heaven. Now I'm permanently traumatized and it's all your fault.
quote:
Seriously, I suspect that the fire-and-brimstone image of Hell that we've had pushed down our throats all our lives is just an attempt at creating a graphic image.
That's an understatement. More like petrified fear. When I went through the whole born again thing, I was scared to death. These Baptists went into gory detail about hell and at twelve I was shaking in fear. Particularly a child can't see the love of god under those circumstances.
quote:
I find that whenever we discuss forgiveness, it is a lot easier to accept the idea that God could forgive me than it is to forgive myself. I rather expect that if I were to die without fully accepting that forgiveness, then I wouldn't allow myself to enter into the presence of God ("heaven") even if I was assured by others that it was OK for me to do so, thereby condenming myself to eternal separation from God ("hell"). And the idea of spending eternity with a group of people who, like me, cannot forgive themselves, is indeed hell.
My heart really goes out to you. What a tormenting thing to have to endure, even after you give yourself to god. Way too many religious beliefs inflict this and much worse on believers and I see it as just plain wrong.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally .
:
Then I misunderstood your position, although you seem to be careening between several different topics all at once even though this thread is about Hell.
Sorry, there are so many associated subjects and it is sometimes difficult to stay on tract, but I am trying.
quote:
Personally, and just personally, I think the idea of human progress is illusory and false. Just as false as the notion that there is a God that exists to satisfy human notions of justice. Humans have shown an incredible power to create, and an equally incredible predeliction to destroy. Perhaps du Lubac was waxing polemic in his statement, or maybe he was too deeply influenced by the recent horrors of totalitarianism he had witnessed in Europe. I don't think he was wrong though, when we turn our back on God it is inevitable that we turn on each other.
I can certainly understand your perception. It is almost impossible to see man's progress with all the anger, hate, destruction and death. Especially these days we are bombarded by it from the media. But human progress is like the entire history of this planet. It moves so slowly and our lives are so short that we can't see it. Take the Ice Age, it took, what, several million years to melt off. Who could possible see that progress?
It seemed like yesterday that I was a young child. It seem like moments ago that I was holding my first born. Our time is unbelievably short. In a flash, I will be dead and only bones. No matter how long I live, I will experience and learn next to nothing, even if I had learned all that is known. In a thousand years our prodigy will know a thousand times more than we. They probably won't be able to recognize the progress either. Who knows, just to recognize progress may take another three or four thousand years. Even that is a speck in time.
Indeed humans create and destroy, but we're still here. No matter how much the species destroys, it creates at a far greater rate. In time we will mature and no longer have any desire to destroy. Eventually, life on this little planet will become greater than any idea of heaven.
As to turning our back on god causing the horror, history proves the reverse. Religious power has been the single worst cause of human conflagration. For over a thousand years the Catholic church committed crimes that made Hitler and Stalin together look like humanitarians. The European Protestants had several hundred years to butcher people wholesale. Fortunately Christianity began being tempered in America where only a few Puritans managed to seek out witches and murder innocent people. Today Christianity is so much more benevolent and that's remarkable progress. But now we have the Muslims.
quote:
I think you're saying a good God would not let differing or false ideas of Hell develop. The alternative is that God forces the belief on us and "lovingly" does not let us fall into error. That would simply be as meaningless as existence without God.
I would use the term "true God", but essentially yes. Why would a true God not tell us the truth in the face of lies (as all beliefs in hell can't be right and thus are lies)? Offering truth is not forcing a belief, it is giving people the ability to make the right choice. And why would life be meaningless without god? My children alone make my life meaningful and there are many other things that also make my life very meaningful.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon
If you're gay, anyway. Otherwise, they'd at least need to be the opposite sex.
Exactly like me in my thinking, not anatomically. Sheeesh
I mentioned it to show that you weren't thinking.
quote:
Then just forget it, I don't want to go to heaven!
Suit yourself. That's a cleaner answer, at least, than the whining of some: 'My considered decision is not to accept Jesus Christ, but why shouldn't I go to heaven anyway?'
quote:
I really don't understand why sex is such a big deal to so many religious people. I don't even think it's worthy of much discussion, it's natural.
Lucky you. Well, as you said, you're not a "pervert," so it's simple, isn't it.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Sorry, Alogon I don't understand any of the points you are trying to make. Would you mind clarifying?
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Sorry, Alogon I don't understand any of the points you are trying to make. Would you mind clarifying?
Thomas
I don't want to be coy, but what if you enumerated whom you would class as "perverts"
and which of these, if any, you think should have sex.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Sorry, Alogon I don't understand any of the points you are trying to make. Would you mind clarifying?
Thomas
I don't want to be coy, but what if you enumerated whom you would class as "perverts"
and which of these, if any, you think should have sex.
What the hell does that matter? It's none of my business who has sex. I really would like to discuss Hell not perverts.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
If the word doesn't mean anything, then why did you bring it up in contradistinction to yourself?
It sounded as though even you implied that some people need to be punished, or at least isolated, more than others because of what they do by way of sex.
You should run for office on the platform "wipe all sex laws off the books." If you can make a case that that would be a good idea, then your thoughts about hell will probably be interesting.
means.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Alogon, I stated why I made that note.
I have no idea where you got the punishment thing from.
"wipe all sex laws off the books.", where did that come from and what does it have to do with an argument about hell? If you take a closer look, I've offered no thoughts about hell. I was asking others about it. I just don't believe there is a hell.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Alogon, I stated why I made that note.
I have no idea where you got the punishment thing from.
"wipe all sex laws off the books.", where did that come from and what does it have to do with an argument about hell?
It might have very little to do with hell-- but if you're a citizen in, roughly speaking, a democracy, then you have a stake in laws that do exist and do punish people for sexual conduct. You said that it's none of your business who has sex with whom. It follows that you should oppose all these laws. (Who knows, maybe some of us could even agree with you).
quote:
I've offered no thoughts about hell. I was asking others about it. I just don't believe there is a hell.
That's a thought about hell. I'm just fishing for some moral discernment that might give that opinion some weight. The waters seem rather muddy thus far.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Glenn
Shipmate
# 6517
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Posted
Hell is the ultimate way of saying, "Wait 'til your father gets home!" It is just a threat to keep you in line, very simple. Threats are a training tool. Heaven is the other training tool. You reward desired behaviour with promises of Heaven and condemn undesired behaviour with threats of hell. Heaven and Hell are similar to the dog biscuit and the rolled up newspaper, but more on an intellectual level. The dog owner wants to make sure that his dog doesn't get any funny ideas. The Minister tells the dog owner not to get any funny ideas.
(Oversimplified on purpose with tongue firmly in cheek.)
Glenn
Any of you scholars know who Thomas Aikenhead was?
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We are interested in evidence to support that which we already believe.
Posts: 288 | From: The Universe | Registered: May 2004
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TxGal
Apprentice
# 6984
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Posted
Ok, I'm enjoying this - it's refreshing to examine my notions of Heaven and Hell in the light of what they really mean.
Let's start from a different direction.
Premise 1: Everyone has a soul that exists on a different level of reality from the corporal.
Premise 2: After the death of the corporal, the soul continues to exist.
So where does the disembodied soul go? One possibility is that it goes to a different plane of existence. If that is the case, and everyone who has ever lived is still there, it must be a big mushpot of souls. So why not have some organization - all the souls who desire to know God and come into his presence go into one area and all the rest go somewhere else. Now for the souls who desire to know God, his presence would be called Heaven, and they would consider anyplace else Hell. The souls in Hell, who never wanted to know God in first place, wouldn't be any less satisfied, not knowing what they're missing.
Very tongue in cheek - but I wonder if the real problem Thomas has with hell is the use to which most religious people put it?
I know Christianity tends to be very specific about who will and will not enter the presence of God, and it's a shame how some self-proclaimed Christians will use that and the threat of Hell to 'win souls for Christ' - but I wonder if that is really what God wants - I rather suspect not. I consider myself a Christian, but I feel very strongly that it's not my call who gets in and who does not, and I'm probably going to get there one day and be very surprised at just how diverse the population of Heaven is - they may even let some of us Christians in!
Posts: 7 | From: Buda, TX, USA | Registered: May 2004
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
My opinion on hell:
Once you've been in the presence of God, not being in his presence is hell.
When you see God and he rejects you because you continue to reject him, that's hell.
Hell isn't a place: it's a state of mind.
As to who ends up there? Only God knows. I don't pretend that I will ever know the mind of God so I would never say that someone else is going to hell. How can any of us know that?
Having had a glimpse of God I can imagine what it would be like to not know him, and I desperately don't want the people I love to risk spending eternity knowing they could have stayed with God, but didn't. That's why I witness.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
(Note to self: ThomasDF respects and admires strong beliefs, as long as they aren't fervent. Remember to always plaster my strong beliefs on him in a gentle, Quaker-like manner...)
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Not bad, IBP, not bad. But it isn't down to you, though well done. God has elected His elite for for First and Better Resurrection, those that reject and neglect that election are in ever increasing danger according to their point on the path, in the process of salvation.
Me included and especially.
The condemnation and warnings in the Bible are for ME.
They aren't for the near 100,000,000,000 people who have not been called by the Father to the Son.
Yet.
As for the stupidity of Angelic rebellion in the OP - a dangerous thing to impute. Lucifer was the smartest entity in creation, at least primus inter pares with two others (Michael and Gabriel). And knew it. As did they.
Read Milton's Paradise Lost.
He discovered pride. Self-determination. Concretized the abstract posits of 'What if?'. Disbelief of God as moral authority. Even as creator. Once you discover the power to lie, to deceive, to plot, to fight, to murder, to define yourself any way you please you distrust all. It's a horrifying fate. And imagine being confronted with a plan to supercede you with rotting meat - monkeys. That the Earth which is your throne is going to be given over to golems, walking, talking dirt.
He had NEVER seen God angry, how could he possibly know what God would do if attacked? He believed God was a liar anyway. Even if he thought ahead he knew he had the MORAL RIGHT and may be God would fold.
Watch the blasphemous film Prophecy and blend Christopher Walken's Gabriel role with Vigo Mortenson's Satan. Self-pity, self-righteousness and visceral, laconically masked, cosmocidal hatred for anything daring to cramp his style.
Those elect to the First and Better Resurrection are nearly as capable of such stupidity. Even with his appalling example.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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sanc
Shipmate
# 6355
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Posted
indeed the mainstream "christianity" concept of hell is hellish to its very corrupt core. wickeds to be burned in hell for eternity? how absurd. for of what purpose will GOD do that? remember that GOD doesn't take any enjoyment in the torment of the wicked. yet GOD is a just GOD who will dispense justice fairly and justly. i myself could not imagine a loving GOD putting even a Hitler in hell to languish for eternity.
so is the concept of modern day "christians" about hell true. here are some points you need to consider before joining their band wagon:
1. is satan in charge of hell as they contend? no way will a just GOD have anything to do with satan in giving sinners their due. no way will HE be in partnership with satan in dispensing just justice to sinners. GOD is the supreme ruler of the universe and every inch of it hell included. the fact is satan will be thrown in hell himself, revelation said that.
2. hell is not eternal as they contend. "eternal fire means, its purpose to forever banish the wicked for eternity after they are ashes is eternal. remember that the fire GOD used to annihilate sodom and gomorrah is "eternal fire" but its extinguished now.
3. there is no hell now. GOD will judge the world and its inhabitants when he comes at the end of the world. JESUS said, "I will come and my reward is with me." HE will reward each one according to what they have done. common sense would tell us that it would be stupid to give the penalty before any hearing and judgement is made. in the last days every one of us will have audience in GOD's court. if there is hell now, it would be unfair to sinners who died 4 thousands years ago and are languishing there now suffering their now without any hearing and day in court.
4. the doctrine that sinners will be punished in hell for eternity will make them immortal. GOD said, the wages of sin is death. sinners will surely die. but if hell is eternal this will make the punishment for sin eternal life in hell not death as prescribed by scriptures.
5. if hell is eternal then CHRIST's sacrifice to give a solution to the sin problem has not solve the sin problem. sin would forever exist in hell. the thing is, GOD would like to put an end to sin and its effect.
6. eternal life of bliss for the righteous wouldnt be that blissful to think that some of their loved ones are swimmming in the lake of fire for eternity.
Dante is not inspired by GOD when he described hell. its a pity a lot of "chistians" adopt some of his descriptions.
hell is GOD's loving expression of justice to put an end to the depraved and anguish filled existence of the wicked. those who chose to lead a life apart from HIS guidance will be forever severed from his care and their existence will be put out for eternity in the lake of fire "hell" at the end of the world.
Posts: 358 | From: Philippines | Registered: May 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Basically right sanc, 5/6: 3 - there is sheol, the grave, the hell where medieval Englishmen stored their potatoes and there is Tartaroo, the place of restraint, chains of darkness, 2 Peter 2:4, Milton's Pandemonium, the capital of Hell painted by Blake, which the ancient Greeks knew to be the abode of Titans - Shaitans - Satans - Satan and his demons. And there was is and shall be Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, the starting point of the Earth's renewal at the millenium's end with the annihilation of the reprobate.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Thomas
quote:
I would use the term "true God", but essentially yes. Why would a true God not tell us the truth in the face of lies (as all beliefs in hell can't be right and thus are lies)? Offering truth is not forcing a belief, it is giving people the ability to make the right choice.
Well, I do believe God has offered us the truth and given us the ability to discern it. I’m not sure at what level God would need to broadcast the information that would make you comfortable, or how if put in front of us in a way to completely mitigate doubt that would not be tantamount to coercion.
I can recall that God interacted directly with man directly in both the Old and New Testaments through things like the experiences of Moses or the miracles of Christ. Yet many turned away, and many did not believe.
Regarding the life meaningless without God comment, that is just my personal feeling. I realize that could be read as a backhanded swipe at our agnostic or atheist friends and I did not intend it that way. My apologies if it came across as an insult.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
I'd be very wary of stating anything about hell or Lucifer as fact. The writings we have about the Morning Star's fall from heaven after the battle for power are - and if I'm wrong I'll apologise most wholeheartedly - merely contemporary fiction with no basis in holy writings.
That doesn't mean it didn't happen but equally it doesn't mean it did.
I might as well use the film Dogma as my proof text, as use Milton.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
I recently heard a priest remarks that the Church required him to believe that there is a Hell, but it does not require him to believe that there is anyone there.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We have Jesus' eye witness account.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Actually IBP you would have been more correct if you said "slim basis" rather than "no basis" --
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! Isaiah 14:12
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Luke, 10:18 "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven."
Slim? If the words of God count for little.
And Isaiah 14 = Ezekiel 28
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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