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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The Future (Or Lack Thereof) of Evangelicalism
stonespring
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Interesting Article, Hardly Breaking News:

http://theamericanscholar.org/where-are-the-people/#.UrIrz2RDuQo

I'm always skeptical when someone says "California is the future" just because its demographics.

Does this describe conditions where you live?

I have no idea whether these observations apply to the Catholic Church.

The author also consistently talks about Pentecostalism as something clearly differentiable from Charismatic Evangelicalism. Is this true? Do his observations also apply to Pentecostalism/the Charismatic Movement?

I'm no expert and I know this is an old discussion. Just thought the article was interesting.

[ 02. April 2014, 19:17: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Kaplan Corday
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The extent to which Schuller was ever representative of evangelicalism can be questioned.

Many evangelicals found his theology vacuous and anodyne, and his Crystal Cathedral kitsch - though when it comes to kitsch, there is plenty of competition right across the spectrum of ecclesiastical culture.

Yes, megachurches might well have had their day, but then eventually today's cutting-edge emerging / emergent communities will seem quaint and dated, too.

The decline in evangelicalism is just part of the general decline of Christianity in the West.

It is still vibrant in many other parts of the world, and even in the West, in various manifestations, it will long outlive mainstream liberal Protestantism.

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Highfive
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Just had to say, thanks for posting that article.
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MrsBeaky
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Brilliant article, thanks Stonespring.

I love the delicious yet wonderful irony here that the crystal cathedral will now be a R.C. cathedral...I so remember as a young catholic student my first experience of an evangelical church which included the minister shouting from the pulpit that the pope was the anti-Christ and all catholic theology suspect...I did point out to the young man who had taken me there that it wasn't a particularly user-friendly approach.....our personal irony is that 37 years later the somewhat older man has returned with me to my catholic roots....
which only goes to show that perhaps these things (such as in the article) really need viewing from the perspective of centuries as well as in their immediate context.

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Alan Cresswell

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Evangelicalism has always had a range of different expressions. In parts of the US, the expressions that led to the development of mega-churches and TV shows has had prominance. Expressions of evangelicalism that operate around small fellowships, independent churches and congregations in mainstream congregationshave continued within the shadow cast by the megachurches. Often with ministers and members who disagree with aspects of the theology and practice of their mega-church brothers and sisters, and may often have found that mega-church theology and practice hindered their own ministry - a "we're evangelicals, but not like those who gather in their thousands in that mega-church over there".

The future of evangelicalism? Different from the prominant expressions of evangelicalism over the last 30 years, just as the last 30 years were different from the 30 years before that. And, so on all the way back to the first evangelicals (whoever you consider them to be). The article expressed part of that well "The preeminence of conversion has produced huge variety and creativity in their outreach to nonbelievers. For nearly a century, evangelicals have been at the forefront of innovations". The essence of evangelicalism has always been the message, Christ Jesus, with a call for all to follow Christ. The way that message is expressed isn't all that important, whatever works in communicating that message and bringing people into committed discipleship is adopted, and if something stops working then it's abandoned. The mega-churches are often no longer succeeding to reach and disciple people and are fading. Other approaches will be tried and those that work adopted widely - whether that's meeting in laundromats or "quasi-intentional spiritual communities" remains to be seen. There will always be variety and novelty, just as 30 years ago the mega-churches were novelties.

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IngoB

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There will always be variety and novelty, just as 30 years ago the mega-churches were novelties.

And there will always be the Roman Catholic Church to pick up the pieces, whether the flash in the pan lasts years, decades, centuries or millennia. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet 3:8)

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Francophile
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And there will always be RC priests to sexually abuse your children
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There will always be variety and novelty, just as 30 years ago the mega-churches were novelties.

And there will always be the Roman Catholic Church to pick up the pieces, whether the flash in the pan lasts years, decades, centuries or millennia.
You appear to be implying that the RCC has always been immune to variety and novelty, and/or that the victims of variety and novelty in non-RCC sections of the church invariably (or at least largely) turn to the RCC to find refuge and stability.

Neither is true.

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Schroedinger's cat

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I think it is part of the very significantly changing face of the church in all forms. The Catholics will never be treated with the same respect after the abuse scandals. Fundamentalism - in particular the megachurch US car-salesman style - has been declining since the Jimmy Swaggert scandal (I think that was the first one). Anglicanism has been struggling with the furore over women and gays (and the traditionalists probably suffering more than most, so it is not just the evangelicals).

But this is actually just the face of the religion. It does not necessarily reflect the reality in most churches or in most people. It just means that the form and style of Christianity - as a whole - is changing, and will continue to change into something else.

That is not a bad thing. Unless you happen to be significantly invested in the current for of the faith.

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Gamaliel
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My take on this is that we need both ... we need the traditional churches like the RCs, Orthodox and Anglicans to provide ballast and stability (although all have developed and evolved over the years and didn't simply drop fully-formed from heaven in the 1st century in the way they appear today).

We also need the innovators and the radicals.

Were the more 'catholic' traditions and the 'upper-ends' of Lutheranism and so on and elements within the Reformed tradition to suddenly disappear tomorrow, I for one, would be deeply concerned about the future of evangelicalism.

There would be little to stop it, in my view, from veering off into subjectivism, heresy and cloud-cuckoo landness.

It retains what stability it has amidst the flux and change that is part and parcel of its DNA because it has an umbilical chord that attaches it to the main thrust of the received tradition.

Sever that chord and you've got problems.

My own view isn't a million miles from Kaplan's, in the sense that much of mainstream Protestantism will wither on the vine through lack of spiritual nourishment and oxygen. Why? Because it is losing or has lost its connection to the grand tradition too ...

It's simply done/doing it in a different way to how some movements within the broadly evangelical field are doing or have done.

This might sound as if I'm calling for a middle position - the Anglican via media for instance ... but I'm not necessarily.

But I do think its axiomatic that the closer any group or movement is to the received, mainstream tradition that runs like a thread through all branches of Christianity - then the less likely it is for them to drift away into kookiness.

If mega-churchiness begins to decline, it's not bad thing in and of itself. I'd much rather people were involved with groups like Kaplan's or in evangelical Anglican churches like Jade Constable's or daronmedway's ... for all the more minor misgivings I might have about aspects of that.

But the problem remains, as Kaplan has identified that Christianity in all its forms is in decline in the West. How we address that is a moot point.

A rigid traditionalism isn't going to do it any more than innovation for innovation's sake.

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Francophile
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I dont think Jade is in an evangelical Anglican church. Aren't they against women and gay priests and gay marriage?
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Eutychus
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hosting/

Francophile, your last two comments on this thread have been far more inflammatory than constructive. They constitute jerkish behaviour as outlined in the Ship's Commandment One. The first one had already been flagged to the hosts. Adjust your posting content appropriately now, or expect attention from an admin soon.

/hosting

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pydseybare
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And there will always be the Roman Catholic Church to pick up the pieces, whether the flash in the pan lasts years, decades, centuries or millennia. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet 3:8)

I admire your faith on this point, but I think it is unlikely.

I think the question of what is, and is not, evangelicalism is a very complicated question. Let us not forget that there are a large number of evangelicals who would not assert that other Evangelicals (of whatever type) are not actually Christians, never mind the rest.

The main problem is that it seems to be a term that means whatever you, personally, want it to mean - so there is actually very little convergence around any recognisable shared values.

In the future, I'd guess that the differences will become even more dramatic. On the one side there seems to be convergence - where groups which had as radically different roots as the (some of the) Reformed and (some of the) Methodist churches (plus Anglican, Baptist, even Mennonite etc) appear to express very little difference in practice and theology to each other.

On the other extreme, there is a form of divergence whereby there are (in my view quite a large group of) evangelical churches that are forcing themselves into totally new directions until they effectively become new and distinct forms of religion.

So, I think this notion that there is any such thing as 'evangelicalism' has basically broken down and the constituent parts will generally divide further and further apart.

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB
And there will always be the Roman Catholic Church to pick up the pieces...

I am sure I don't need to tell you that the reverse is also true: that there are many people whose spiritual lives have been messed up by the RCC, and other churches have had to "pick up the pieces".

In fact, any organisation can make this kind of claim. It doesn't prove anything (as I am sure you well know).

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pydseybare
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To be fair, I'm not sure he is saying it proves anything, just that he has faith on this point.

Of course, there are many many Christians that fundamentally disagree, and many who would not even be happy to say that the RCC was any kind of Christian church.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
And there will always be RC priests to sexually abuse your children

Let's be ecumenical - plenty of ministers of other churches as well are available.

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Francophile
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
And there will always be RC priests to sexually abuse your children

Let's be ecumenical - plenty of ministers of other churches as well are available.
Agreed. But my response was re the RCC picking up the pieces of the mess created by other churches. Tell that to those who have been abused by RCC priests and whose abuse was institutionally covered.
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pydseybare
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quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Agreed. But my response was re the RCC picking up the pieces of the mess created by other churches. Tell that to those who have been abused by RCC priests and whose abuse was institutionally covered.

I'd not downplay any abusive victim, but I suspect you've more chance of successfully getting compensation from the RCC diocese than a small independent evangelical church - which may have closed years ago.

Anacdotally, I hear that a lot of abuse went on in those kinds of settings, but nothing can be done as there is nothing left of the churches to pursue.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
And there will always be RC priests to sexually abuse your children

Let's be ecumenical - plenty of ministers of other churches as well are available.
hosting/

Quetzalcoatl, as you'll have seen the post you quoted is already the subject of hostly attention. If you want to continue that tangent, you do so at your own risk, especially outside Hell.

/hosting

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Barnabas62
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Host Hat On

Francophile

Don't add ignoring a Host's ruling to the reference to Admin.

Everyone else. In view of the request for Admin overview, you would be wise not to continue the tangent re Catholic priests and abuse in this thread. You can rant in Hell, start a serious separate discussion in Purgatory. Stop derailing this one.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host.

Host Hat Off

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South Coast Kevin
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Given my ecclesiological proclivities, I'm heartened to read of those more experimental ways of doing / being church, like the group based in launderettes. And I had no idea Rob Bell was involved in something of the organic, simple sort - I knew he'd left the big church he was pastor of in Michigan, but I hadn't heard what he was up to in California. I wonder if he'll write about his simple church experiences...

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
So, I think this notion that there is any such thing as 'evangelicalism' has basically broken down and the constituent parts will generally divide further and further apart.

Though I recognise there are significant fracture lines within Evangelicalism, I don't ascribe to your view that Evangelicalism has broken down into parts that are drifting further apart, much less drifting into heresy.

Fracture lines within Evangelicalism have always existed. In my days as a student and member of ECU exec, the big one was over Charismatic gifts - are tongues, prophecy etc essential for Christian faith, or are they actually satanic in origin? Another was whether Evangelicals should be active in politics and social justice, or is that a distraction from evangelism? Whether women can be in positions of leadership and issues of sexuality are just more points of disagreement between evangelicals, and in some cases are now bigger divisions than the old ones - but probably no bigger than the old divisions were 20-30 years ago.

Evangelicalism has survived these fractures, it has changed a bit with different views having ascendance at different times, but evangelicals even when they've drifted apart from each other still find a lot of common ground. We are a broad section of the Church, with some distinctives that make the label meaningful (for some of us, at least) but still well within the mainstream of the Christian faith (I can't think of any evangelicals who would, for example, disagree with the Nicene Creed even if they wouldn't use that as a liturgical statement of belief).

What are those common threads that still bind evangelicals together? They're commonly expressed as four points that all evangelicals would essentially hold:
  1. Centrality of the Bible as the supreme authority in matters of faith and conduct, a commitment to study the Bible and apply the best reasoning we can to determine what it has to teach us. Some evangelicals would tend towards viewing Scripture as Inerrant, but by no means all.
  2. Centrality of the Crucifixion as the means of our salvation. We preach Christ Crucified. For many evangelicals that has resulted in an (IMO) unhealthy fixation on PSA, but other models of how Christ has saved us are acceptable within the breadth of evangelicalism. The important point is that salvation is achieved by Christ, his obedience that led to his death, and not on any work we can do.
  3. Need for conversion. Christians need to accept the salvation Christ gives, we need to have faith in Christ and what he has done for us, and as a result of that, in the power of the Spirit, we need to change our lives and follow him.
  4. Activism. The Christian faith is not accepting a set of beliefs. It is something that is lived, and our faith has to lead to action. Some evangelicals might limit that action to evangelism, others would want to include political action and practical help for those in need, the majority would include Christian fellowship and Bible study as important acts (and, hence, many evangelical churches would have a very substantial programme of worship and study events throughout the week).
Yes, many non-evangelicals would be entirely in agreement with those. But, all evangelicals would hold those as vital to a sound and healthy Christian life.

How those principles work out in practice is highly variable. And, many of the squabbles within evangelicalism are essentially about the practical questions of working out the faith. We are brothers and sisters in the faith, and as we all know siblings do tend to rub each other up over trivial matters and squabble endlessly. That doesn't mean we don't love evangelicals we disagree with, or seek to declare them to not be part of the family.

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pydseybare
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Thanks, that is a good reposte.

I can think of many Evangelicals who would never assent to the historic Creeds because a) they mention a Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church - which they don't believe in (and refuse to assent to due to the things that those words mean to other people who use the phrases) and b) they don't say anything about the bible.

This is why so many Evangelicals spend such a long time debating and deriving Statements of Belief, which end up being far longer than the historic creeds.

Some beliefs of some sets of Evangelicals are mutually exclusive. A set of people - who call themselves consciously Evangelicals - refuse to accept that spiritual gifts are in use today. Another set refuse to accept people are saved without them. These two groups are never going to agree.

I still think the idea that there is a central set of beliefs that unites Evangelicals that is more important to them than the things that divide them is a misnomer.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
And there will always be RC priests to sexually abuse your children

Francophile is fortunate, perhaps, in not having seen too many files of Anglican clergy who have done the same. Those responsible for running evangelical children's camps will also have horror stories for him. There is a parable about casting stones somewhere about...
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Augustine the Aleut
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I have just noticed Barnabas' direction after my post, and am sorry for veering into the area.
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Tubbs

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Alan’s take seems about right … In some places, due to the makeup of the population, the mega-church will continue to hold sway and they will continue to offer their own unique brand of Christianity. (That band ranging from the mainstream Rick Warrens and Bill Hybals of this world to the more extreme as believed in by Sarah Palin and Ted Cruz).

In other areas, smaller and more open-minded congregations are going to spring up. Some of those are going to avoid going down the mega church route and grow by adopting the church planting model instead – where you start in one place and as soon as you reach a certain size, plant a new church somewhere else and so on.

The article is talking about mega churches and Christianity within America though. In the UK the mega church doesn’t exist – unless you count some of the larger Vineyards, NFIs, CofEs and RCC – which is stretching the definition IMO. The right wing Evangelical movement also manifests itself differently over here as well.

The central point is valid though – is Christianity evolving?! Yes, thank goodness! It continually evolves and reinvents itself. How do we hold fast to eternal truths whilst still remaining relevant? Dunno, each person, congregation and church group is going to have work that out for themselves. The answer isn’t going to be the same for everyone. And neither is the definition of “kooky” and “mainstream”. As SC pointed out, it’s not a problem unless you’re significantly invested in keeping things as they are. (I suspect that some of the more extreme elements in the US will not go quietly. Not so sure how that will work itself out elsewhere).

Tubbs

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Marvin the Martian

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ADMINLY DISINTEGRATION RAY ARMED

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
And there will always be RC priests to sexually abuse your children

Francophile is fortunate, perhaps, in not having seen too many files of Anglican clergy who have done the same. Those responsible for running evangelical children's camps will also have horror stories for him. There is a parable about casting stones somewhere about...
There have been three Hostly warnings about this tangent, and it's inappropriateness for this thread. Drop it NOW.

This is NOT a friendly warning. If I have to so much as glance at this thread again, someone will be spending Christmas and New Year ashore for violations of Commandments 1 and 6.

Marvin
Admin

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I have just noticed Barnabas' direction after my post, and am sorry for veering into the area.

It's often a good idea to read the whole thread before replying...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Gamaliel
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Backing up ... sorry, I meant Laurelin's church not Jade Constable's ... [Hot and Hormonal]

What I meant to say was that I would rather people went to evangelical churches like Laurelin's, Kaplan Corday's and daronmedway's rather than US megachurch ones ...

That's probably pure theological snobbery on my part though.

I don't mind people going to Anglican churches like Jade Constable's either.

I don't mind people going to any type of church really ... I'd rather that than them not go to any kind of church at all ... not that 'going to church' is where it's all at ...

But if I were to express a preference, it'd be away from the megachurch end of things ... but that's a purely subjective reaction (although I do think that the megachurch thing does lead to a theology-lite, carcinogenic fast-food approach if taken to its logical conclusion) ...

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pydseybare
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That's an interesting thought, Gamaliel.

Are you saying there is something destructive about large congregations?

What about large (for example) Anglican or RC Catherdral congregations? Or it is just Evangelicals that tend towards the behaviours you have a problem with?

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Francophile
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Are there any mega churches in the UK to go to? Id like to try one out. There are big churches no doubt, but I haven't heard of any with multiple locations, 20,000 congregations etc.


Cross posted

[ 19. December 2013, 12:30: Message edited by: Francophile ]

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Are there any mega churches in the UK to go to? Id like to try one out. There are big churches no doubt, but I haven't heard of any with multiple locations, 20,000 congregations etc.

I suppose you could get a flavour at the big Christian conferences like New Wine and Spring Harvest. I've not been to Spring Harvest but the New Wine main meetings certainly seem quite megachurch-y to me - big crowd; fervent atmosphere; very well-produced, modern music; quite a long sermon / talk.

I'm not aware of any churches in the UK where they do that satellite congregation thing, with one guy (usually a guy, usually the main minister / pastor) speaking and each satellite group having a video link. Horrible idea, IMO - Christian celebrity culture at its worst.

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Gamaliel
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I think Alan Cresswell is right in regards to what might be termed mainstream evangelicalism ... of the kind found around Spring Harvest and similar conventions.

However, I can see some of the 'marginal' groups of the future having their roots in contemporary megachurch or Pentecostal groups ... it's happened already in China, sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America.

At the same time, you can find syncretic offshoots from Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism in some of those places too.

I can certainly see some of the health-wealth end of the US megachurch spectrum hiving off and evolving into something that is akin to a new religion rather than Christianity as traditionally understood.

There's nothing new in that. Mormonism sprung from revivalism. The millenarian tendencies of the mid-19th century also spawned various sects and cults.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
That's an interesting thought, Gamaliel.

Are you saying there is something destructive about large congregations?

I can't answer for Gamaliel. But, for me the biggest problem I have with large congregations is that there is no possibility to share fellowship with the whole gathered body of Christ. I know that, for various reasons, that's not possible with small churches either but when you get above 100 regular attendees the size of the group adds an impenetrable barrier. I personally consider that sharing fellowship with the gathered congregation is a powerful symbol of the fellowship of the whole Christian Church - something we aren't going to experience this side of Heaven, but anticipated in the local congregation. With a congregation so large that you can't possibly experience that fellowship then there is a danger of losing the feeling of being united with the whole; you can either find yourself feeling like a small cog in a machine or an individual travelling with other individuals. I don't think either of those is how it should be. Large congregations don't necessarily result in such conclusions, but I suspect they may offer a hindrance to avoiding those conclusions.

Another issue relates to the minister. I think it is healthy for a minister to know everyone in their congregation, to be able to visit the sick and those in need at least occasionally. I think it is healthy for everyone in the congregation to feel that they can talk to the minister. Clearly visiting those in need is not a job just for the minister, but if the congregation is so large that there is no way for the minister to do that at all then there is a problem IMO. I'll let ministers comment on just how big a congregation can be for it to be possible to visit and talk to anyone in need (remembering that those people are more than just those who attend on Sunday morning).

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Gamaliel
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In terms of 'behaviours' I might have an issue with ... as it's been put here ...

I'd simply suggest that all traditions have their strong points and weak points. There's an Achilles Heel of nominalism, 'cultural Christianity' and a certain amount of superstition, I would suggest, in some of the older Christian traditions.

Equally, some of the more closely knit 'sects' (using the term in its sociological rather than perjorative sense) can suffer from insularity and lack of engagement with the wider society.

So if I'm critical of megachurchiness it doesn't mean that I'd regard everything that happens in cathedrals or RCC parishes or whatever else as necessarily any 'better' - simply different.

Personally, I'd far rather worship in a cathedral than attend New Wine rallies or some kind of megachurch service - but that's based on personal preference rather than a belief that one is 'right' and the other 'wrong.'

I'd agree with South Coast Kevin on the slickness and celebrity culture that seems to have crept in ... professionalism is one thing but it can go way too far.

As for megachurch-sized congregations here in the UK ... well, I think that churches such as Kingsway in London (is that still going?) has services with around 5,000 people involved. Some of the ethnic-minority churches in London may be closest in terms of numbers to US models, but would be quite different in style to the Bill Hybels model.

The atmosphere of a convention like New Wine or Spring Harvest might be the closest over here in the UK. But even there it wouldn't quite be the same as what we see in the US.

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Gamaliel
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I cross-posted with Alan Cresswell ...

Yes, you're right, you can't speak for me, Alan ... [Biased] but I'd echo your sentiments.

In addition, though, I'd say that there was something about the size that would it more possible to whip up particular emotions and desired effects ... you get the effect that you can get at any large gathering (both for good or ill) and people can get carried along with the crowd.

That's why, I would submit, that there are more claims of healings and so on at large charismatic gatherings and rallies than there seem to be in smaller charismatic congregations that gather 'as normal' week by week ...

The placebo effect of platform-cues, collective expectancy and heightened expectations is a lot more potent in a large crowd.

Hence the people you get going forward and claiming to have been healed and even - as I have seen myself - apparent healings such as people rising out of wheelchairs and so on ... because of the effect of the adrenalin and the 'surge' of euphoria that is possible in such settings.

It also explains why so many of these apparent healings don't 'apply' and why many of these same people can be found back in their wheelchairs or using their sticks and so on as soon as they are aware from the atmosphere of the meeting or back in their normal, day-to-day church experience.

I'd suggest that this happens across the board and not just in the more obviously hyped-up gatherings such as those associated with the likes of Benny Hinn.

That's another reason I'm wary of these kind of large gatherings ... because the claims tend to be overblown and you get 'mission-creep' or 'testimony-extension' as it were.

Small groups have their problems, but so do the large rallies.

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daronmedway
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The linked article suggests that the type of evangelicalism being discussed can be traced back to Jonathan Edwards and the First Great Awakening. I don't agree. It seems to me that the seeker sensitive mega-church phenomenon can be traced to the pragmatic, pietistic and and anti-doctrinalism of Charles Finney and the Second Great Awakening. The Theology of Jonathan Edwards epitomised in his most famous sermon Sinners in the Hands of and Angry God just doesn't seem to capture to vacuous, easy-believism and cheap grace of this particular brand of American evangelicalism.
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deano
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A quick google using the words “decline fundamentalist Christianity” opens up a plethora of evidence that certainly the more fundamentalist Christians are in terminal decline. Mainly due to the age (50+) of those who subscribe to such views, and the younger generation are not replacing them due to increased liberalist attitudes and exposure to competing views via the Internet.

In other words those who cling on to creationism are old, and any young people who try to hold on to such views are exposed to many counter arguments on sites like ours. A decade ago they wouldn’t have been exposed to those counter arguments as much and might have held on to their creationist and fundamentalist beliefs.

So the dripping on the floor low end of the Evanglical movement’s candle is in terminal decline, in my opinion. Which is good news.

But I don’t see why a more mainstream, tolerant and rational evangelical movement has to be in decline. There will always be those who pursue a Sola Scriptura style of worship, and providing that it isn’t forced on others then I see no reason for that to change.

I personally don’t want it – I’m too much of a cake-eating-and-having-it-as-well affirming Catholic for that – but I don’t think there is anything in evangelical teaching per se that will cause it to lose members. Maybe a demographic change might though.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The linked article suggests that the type of evangelicalism being discussed can be traced back to Jonathan Edwards and the First Great Awakening. I don't agree.

I read it as tracing US evangelicalism as a whole to Edwards, though I think an argument could be made for tracing US evangelicalism back further than that ... like, to Wesley sending Methodists across the Pond.

I found the article did tend towards a suggestion that at the height of the mega-church phenomenum that that represented the whole of US evangelicalism (ie: all US evangelical churches were mega churches or aspired to be), whereas that was only ever a part of US evangelicalism with other strands co-existing with the mega-churches.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
That's an interesting thought, Gamaliel.

Are you saying there is something destructive about large congregations?

Large evangelical congregations, IME, generally gather in buildings situated to affluent areas and are generally comprised of fairly affluent people. IMO, this has created a received evangelical missiology which has consistently failed to consider, let alone help, churches and church leaders who are evangelical in their theology but situated geographically in 'hard to reach' areas and among 'hard to reach' people.

Furthermore, the leaders of these large affluent evangelical 'hippo churches' and the networks that they run - such as New Wine and HTB - have historically given a platform to American mega-church pastors as examples of 'success' and aspiration. IMO, this has been because they have been rather self serving in their selection of speakers and celebrities. They've chosen their own heroes because they've wanted to take their own, already thriving churches, to 'the next level' of numerical growth. They haven't really served the huge numbers of ordinary evangelical churches and leaders who are quietly getting on with the job in normal parishes and communities. On the contrary, sometimes they've laid huge and unrealistic burdens of expectation on people's shoulders without lifting a finger to lighten the load.

But I'm not bitter... [Smile]

[ 19. December 2013, 14:37: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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pydseybare
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Thanks Daronmedway, I liked that. Particularly

quote:
without lifting a pinger to lighten the load.
[Hot and Hormonal]

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stonespring
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I agree that Evangelicalism has gone through many paradigm changes and this is just another one. Megachurches were never the overwhelming paradigm of Evangelicalism either, even in the US. Small and diverse Evangelical congregations have always been everywhere here.

However, I think that the post-doctrinalism, post-congregationalism (as people not feeling a need to go to church on Sunday or to belong to a particular denomination), post-pastoralism (as in people not feeling a need to be under the care of a particular pastor), and post-labelism (people not feeling the need to adopt the label of any denomination, congregation, or even the label of Christianity, even if they have some or many Christian beliefs), as well as the openness many people now have to syncretism and drawing spiritual succor not only from Scripture but also from secular writings (from literature, poetry, popular non-fiction, and (sigh) self-help books) - all of these trends mean that the form of Evangelicalism, or of non-Catholic/Orthodox Christianity in general, that seems to be on the rise in the US is pretty different than anything seen before. Of course, there are immigrant churches, many Pentecostal, with powerful pastors, large Sunday congregations, etc. But I wonder whether the third and fourth generations of immigrants will not come to resemble the mainstream population in these religious trends.

As has been noted, the people who claim no religious affiliation (the nones), who now outnumber Evangelicals (but are still way outnumbered by Christians) in the US, still seem to be pretty spiritual if not religious. They just don't want a label or don't spend time thinking about labels. And the number of people who just say they are "Christian" without needing to even add the label "Evangelical" is also very large.

Cultural Christianity has often been criticised but I think people are not beginning to embrace it as not any less authentic than stereotypical religious observance. That may seem nothing new, but I think now it is becoming common for people to be very comfortable in the belief that they do not even need to read the Bible in order to be a good Christian. Christianity is more and more coming to mean either a personal relationship with Jesus or a life inspired by Christ with no other strings needing to be attached - not even the Bible.

I am not saying I support this. I could also be totally wrong since I am not backing up my observations with data.

Maybe this is just another fad and old-fashined Christianity will survive out of the limelight like before. But once non-Catholic/Orthodox Christianity loses its focus on Scripture, what is left? Something substantial, but something very different than what we are used to.

By the way, as a Roman Catholic I do not think the RCC is immune from these trends at all. As a different institution the RCC has its own issues - but in the US this is a cultural shift that is affecting just about everyone.

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seekingsister
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I think a lot of the rejection of evangelicalism (as defined in the linked article) by younger Christians is due to politics - specifically the way that evangelical churches got into bed with the right-wing movement.
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The Theology of Jonathan Edwards epitomised in his most famous sermon Sinners in the Hands of and Angry God just doesn't seem to capture to vacuous, easy-believism and cheap grace of this particular brand of American evangelicalism.

No, the theology of Jonathan Edwards is not epitomised by that one particular sermon - even if it is one of his more famous works. Yes, he would have been horrified by the vacuous easy-believism - but his own interior and subjective focus, and to a greater extent that of Whitfield, set the stage for the experience focused Second Awakening.
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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Thanks, that is a good reposte.

I can think of many Evangelicals who would never assent to the historic Creeds because a) they mention a Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church - which they don't believe in (and refuse to assent to due to the things that those words mean to other people who use the phrases) and b) they don't say anything about the bible.

This is why so many Evangelicals spend such a long time debating and deriving Statements of Belief, which end up being far longer than the historic creeds.

Some beliefs of some sets of Evangelicals are mutually exclusive. A set of people - who call themselves consciously Evangelicals - refuse to accept that spiritual gifts are in use today. Another set refuse to accept people are saved without them. These two groups are never going to agree.

I still think the idea that there is a central set of beliefs that unites Evangelicals that is more important to them than the things that divide them is a misnomer.

Well this evangelical subscribes to the creeds!

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The Theology of Jonathan Edwards epitomised in his most famous sermon Sinners in the Hands of and Angry God just doesn't seem to capture to vacuous, easy-believism and cheap grace of this particular brand of American evangelicalism.

No, the theology of Jonathan Edwards is not epitomised by that one particular sermon - even if it is one of his more famous works. Yes, he would have been horrified by the vacuous easy-believism - but his own interior and subjective focus, and to a greater extent that of Whitfield, set the stage for the experience focused Second Awakening.
Yes, you're right, Edward's reflection on the place of spiritual emotion, intuition and feeling in the experience of revived spiritual life in his book The Religious Affections is more generally representative of his theology.
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Pomona
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I think my priest would be quite amused to hear my church described as evangelical - we could do with the youth demographic though [Biased] My church is AffCath, although I did start out at an evangelical Anglican church, and was there for 6 years or so. I'd say it's prayerbook evangelical though - more Reformed than charismatic (pretty close to Sydney Anglican IME), although it does work closely with the local NFI churches. It is in East Sussex though which has a very dominant evangelical culture.

What impact would people say that UCCF and student churches have on evangelicalism in the UK?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well this evangelical subscribes to the creeds!

In this country that is a decidedly un-evangelical thing to do. "No creed but the Bible!" is a common rallying cry.

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Alan Cresswell

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I introduced Creeds, not saying that Evangelicals would subscribe to the historic Creeds but that they wouldn't disagree with them. There's a subtle difference, I think.

Evangelical may not recite "We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth". But, they would say "The Bible teaches that God is our Almighty Father, that He made all things". We believe the same things, we just won't always choose the same words to express those beliefs.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What impact would people say that UCCF and student churches have on evangelicalism in the UK?

Difficult to say. Most students experience their ECU rather than UCCF directly. And, ECUs and student churches are highly variable - even at the same university they can change beyond recognition in only a couple of years.

At their best, ECUs instil an appreciation of applying the same faculties used in university studies to the Bible, with integrity and honesty. They give young people an opportunity at leadership. They often provide the first experience young people have of being treated as adults with intelligent things to say about their faith, rather than "the slightly too old for Sunday School children" their home churches weren't sure what to do with.

At their worst ... well, ECUs can have a very strong influence in driving young people to run a mile from any aspect of Evangelicalism, or even Christian faith.

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