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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: "Spiritual Growth”
Just a branch on the vine
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How you grow spiritually? What disciplines/practices help you connect to God/Jesus? How does one stay fresh and vibrant in faith without becoming a legalist?

Just wondering – I was hoping some fresh ideas would help me see things in a way I haven’t been able to previously.

[ 02. August 2016, 22:10: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

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maleveque
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Not to sound too simplistic, but... first question: pray; second question: prayer; third question: pray with others in a faith community.
Of course, it's not always easy. I find myself forgetting to pray, or just doing the words (which is its own spiritual exercise, especially when things aren't looking good and it's hard to feel connected to God).
Anne L.

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Life isn't all fricasseed frogs and eel pie.

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aj

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Hi Just a branch on the vine

I'm sure everyone would have worthwhile input here, and answers certainly pop up in weird and wonderful ways all over the ship, but, to pick up on your comment about becoming legalistic - would you care to elaborate on that a little?

I say that because I think there are quite a few people on the ship who have encountered a more conservative period of personal faith in the past, where `things seemed a lot more certain' and black and white looked like a comforting room to inhabit. I've certainly been there.

A few things that I've found helpful, whether I'm `good' at them or not. Whether they help me connect to God...well...I like to think they do :

Praying is good - times of silence, meditation on scripture and favourite pieces of writing, walking in silence; imagining the laughter of God; the God who surprises us; who longs to meet with us.

Be aware of the world around us. Read news media from a variety of sources, view an Iranian film, visit art galleries, watch a skateboarder practice in the mall, take up cycling, join a [not strictly faith-based] volunteer organisation, stop on the street when pulled up by someone asking you to sign up to help save the whales (at least don't pretend to be on the phone).

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if there's no god, then who turns on the light when you open the fridge?

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Nunc Dimittis
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Hostly Tudor Bonnet ON

As this is more discussion based rather than support based, I am kicking this thread to Purgatory.

Hostly Tudor Bonnet OFF

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Freddy
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12 step programs are a good way of growing spiritually.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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LutheranChik
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Just for myself, I've found that praying the Daily Office has improved my prayer life overall...also lectio divina -- slow, prayerful reading of Scripture texts (as opposed to the thinky, analytical way that I'm usually inclined to read the Bible). Social action -- works of justice and mercy -- can energize me spiritually. And, as has been noted, balancing personal practice with spirituality in the context of a faith community.

I have several friends who follow, to one extent or the other, the Benedictine Rule and have found that a good framework for a healthy, balanced spiritual life.

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Simul iustus et peccator
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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
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I'm not too keen on the idea of disciplines and practices, although I'm sure I have them. Naming them 'disciplines' and 'practices' seem suspiciously like a nice way of saying 'legalism', so I tend to try to steer clear if I possibly can. So far the approach has worked well.

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LutheranChik
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Gordon: It's not about "earning points by doing stuff," for the same reason that jogging around the neighborhood every evening isn't about "winning a race." Spiritual disciplines are good, time-tested gifts that help us in our spiritual walks. They're only legalistic if you choose to make them so. And anything can be legalistic, including legalistically applied anti-legalism.

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Simul iustus et peccator
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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
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Could be I suppose. My experience has been that avoiding these disciplines has helped me in my spiritual growth; I can't really comment on the experience of others.

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Spiffy
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Gordon, having a set time that you pray (whether daily, weekly, or even monthly), is a discipline. So is sitting down to read the Scriptures. So is going to church every Sunday.

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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
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aj

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
And anything can be legalistic, including legalistically applied anti-legalism.

Well said.

A daily (say, morning) `quiet time' is a good discipline (or whatever you want to call it - routine, perhaps) to have. Even if you often feel you're not getting anywhere the routine of prayer and bible study can be helpful in getting you in the mode of reading, listening and meditating. At the moment I am enjoying Dave Tomlinson's recent book Running into God - reflections for ordinary days, which offers some marvellous thoughts on scripture passages, inspired by the idea of God meeting us in the `ordinariness' of life.

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if there's no god, then who turns on the light when you open the fridge?

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Ian Climacus

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[Edit: x-posted with the two fine people above re my first comment]

quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I'm not too keen on the idea of disciplines and practices, although I'm sure I have them. Naming them 'disciplines' and 'practices' seem suspiciously like a nice way of saying 'legalism', so I tend to try to steer clear if I possibly can. So far the approach has worked well.

Is naming it "Quiet time", a word often favoured among our evangelical brothers and sisters, any less legalistic? Whatever name you give it, it seems to me to be the same thing. [Confused]


I find having a minimum rule of prayer (Morning and Evening) helpful. I pray various Orthodox prayers, read the Epistle and Gospel from the lectionary, and add my personal petitions. I also like reading from Church Fathers or Desert Fathers (e.g. see here). Substitute your favourite theologian if you like (a fellow parishioner devours St Augustine's books continually). That's not to say there are days where I don't do this, for there are, but making it a priority is very helpful, as is some regularity.

Corporate worship is also very important. I'd also say participating in the sacraments, which I find of great benefit.

As is making a conscious effort to change: when you fall, cry "Lord have mercy!" or similar, and get up, determined, by God's grace, to not do it again. And, if you're anything like me, when you do do the same thing, cry "Lord have mercy!" again, and get up, again determined, by God's grace, to not do it again. Repeat ad infinitum until the end of the your life. [Biased]

God bless.
Ian.

[ 25. October 2005, 03:25: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
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Could be a discipline. Could be a habit. Could be obsessive compulsive disorder. Could be a legalism. Our church meets regularly at 9 am on Sundays, but I suspect that is more a pragmatic thing, as if we changed the time each week or met on an ad hoc basis, it would be difficult to get everyone together.

I tend not to have a regular time of prayer or bible reading, although I wouldn't complain if others wanted to.

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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
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Sorry, my previous post was a response to Spiffy DWS.

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Ian Climacus

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Oh, and I forgot to say something, but aj said it better than I would've. Even if you don't feel you are praying "well" or whatever, keep at it. God's grace is still working.

As my avatar's namesake wrote:
quote:
Fight always with your thoughts and call them back when they wander away. God does not demand of those under obedience that their thoughts be totally undistracted when they pray. And do not lose heart when your thoughts are stolen away. Just remain calm, and constantly call your mind back.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent

And, from someone else,:
quote:
A brother said to an old man, “Abba, I go and beg the old men to speak to me about the salvation of my soul, and I do not remember any of their words, so what ought I to do? Continue to ask them, but do nothing? In truth, I am altogether in impurity.” Now there were two empty jugs there, and the old man said to him, “Bring me one of the jugs, put oil in it and then scrub it with water, then go and put it back in its place.” He did this several times. The old man said to him, “Now bring the two jugs together, and see which is the cleaner.” The brother said, “That in which I put the oil.” The old man said to him, “So it is also for the soul; for, even if it retains nothing of what it has asked, yet it is more purified than the one which has not asked anything.”
God's grace is working.
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LutheranChik
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quote:
As is making a conscious effort to change: when you fall, cry "Lord have mercy!" or similar, and get up, determined, by God's grace, to not do it again. And, if you're anything like me, when you do do the same thing, cry "Lord have mercy!" again, and get up, again determined, by God's grace, to not do it again. Repeat ad infinitum until the end of the your life.

Waving to Ian from my own ungraceful sprawl farther down the ditch. [Biased]

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Simul iustus et peccator
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spook
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I would say reading the bible, praying and wholehearted worship all help spiritual growth. Having others pray with and for you also helps...
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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by Just a branch on the vine:
How does one stay fresh and vibrant in faith without becoming a legalist?

What a wonderful question.

I've almost just about perhaps concluded I need to do whatever I want to do in my life, including some really outrageous stuff, and that God will still take me where he wants me.

I hope I'm right... [Paranoid]

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sabine
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I pray, read inspirational literature, attend Meeting, etc. etc.

But I think the thing that has helped me grow spiritually in a most profound way has been being present to and engaging the wounded world (I include my own wounds in this).

"Let your life speak." Sure, sounds good on paper--but enacting it requies the kind of self-reflection and compassion towards others that can create spiritual growth over time.

I don't want to encourage an either/or discussion--prayer is very important, IMHO....but there is a worldly connection that can go along with prayer to help a person be a part of the wider community of God's creation.

[edited for typo...hope I got 'em all [Smile] ]

sabine

[ 25. October 2005, 14:49: Message edited by: sabine ]

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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humblebum
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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Could be a discipline. Could be a habit. Could be obsessive compulsive disorder. Could be a legalism. Our church meets regularly at 9 am on Sundays, but I suspect that is more a pragmatic thing, as if we changed the time each week or met on an ad hoc basis, it would be difficult to get everyone together.

But the discipline of church attendance is not so much about the time of the service, but whether the individual members chose to go or not.

I assume that you only go to your sunday morning church service when you feel like it, and avoid any habits of regular attendance that you might or might not be developing, just to nip any latent legalism in the bud before it gets going?

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humblebum

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Spiffy
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I agree with sabine (and p.s. I was cooking last night, sabine, that's why I missed you in the cafe!) that prayer is an important aspect of opening yourself up to God, but there's also the, "okay, now get out and do something about it!" part of our faith that isn't emphasised quite as much.

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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
I agree with sabine (and p.s. I was cooking last night, sabine, that's why I missed you in the cafe!) that prayer is an important aspect of opening yourself up to God, but there's also the, "okay, now get out and do something about it!" part of our faith that isn't emphasised quite as much.

Wonderful point. Isn't the whole point of prayer to help God work with you so that you can get out and do something about it?

I would say that the entire plan of spiritual growth is to turn away from evil and towards what is good.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Carys

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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Could be a discipline. Could be a habit. Could be obsessive compulsive disorder. Could be a legalism. Our church meets regularly at 9 am on Sundays, but I suspect that is more a pragmatic thing, as if we changed the time each week or met on an ad hoc basis, it would be difficult to get everyone together.

I tend not to have a regular time of prayer or bible reading, although I wouldn't complain if others wanted to.

Mmm, once again C.S. Lewis has expressed my reaction to this well:
quote:
The correct response to misuse is not disuse but right use
Yes, spiritual disciplines can lapse into legalism (and I found the evangelical emphasis on the Quiet Time and the pressure to have the same pattern as all other GLEs to head in that direction) but that doesn't mean that we should just abandon them.

If I do not have a regular structure for prayer/bible reading it does not happen more often than not and I meander on aimlessly. Having the framework of the discipline (whilst not having to stick to it legalistically), frees me to spend time with God. I'm just beginning to add lectio divina to my attendence at the office and it's helping me.

Fine, if you can manage without, or maybe need a break because of previous legalistic experiences, but to dismiss others practices?

I'm actually a fan of habit in Church attendence. At least if you've got yourself to be physically present, you're opening yourself up to the possibility of God's presence even if you're half on auto-pilot.* I remember when I was an undergrad, most of my friends found the idea of bowing when crossing the altar odd at best and idolatrous at worst. One day I was in a church, and turned and bowed (out of habit) as I crossed the altar. In doing so, my brain realised where I was. Training my body helps it counter my mind when it wants to wander off into its own things.

Carys

*Yes, he can get to you in other ways, but there's no reason to make it more difficult than it could be!

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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The Lady of the Lake
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Silent prayer alone and with other people.

Serving in church. This is v. important IME, because being responsible for other people at some level means you're forced to confront self-centredness. Serving in the church specifically means having to look for signs of God at work in other people you haven't chosen to be with.

Advice from other Christians

Spiritual direction. Makes a real difference.

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If I had a coat, I would get it.

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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
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quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:

I assume that you only go to your sunday morning church service when you feel like it, and avoid any habits of regular attendance that you might or might not be developing, just to nip any latent legalism in the bud before it gets going?

No, meeting with my brothers and sisters in Christ is important for me and them, so wild horses wouldn't keep me away. Getting 3 little girls out the door in time sometimes threatens to, though.

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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

If I do not have a regular structure for prayer/bible reading it does not happen more often than not and I meander on aimlessly. Having the framework of the discipline (whilst not having to stick to it legalistically), frees me to spend time with God.

It's just that I am always in the presence of my Father through the work of the Lord Jesus. I'm never away from Him. Nor is anyone who has put their trust in him for forgiveness of sins.

Oh, and is there anything wrong with meandering on aimlessly? When I was little I used to love to do that with my parents. Frameworks and disciplines I associate with work, study, school and housework, and I like to get away from those things. Thank God I can do it in my relationship with Him.

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Robert Armin

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Sorry GC - beg to differ. I have certainly "put my trust in him for forgiveness of sins"; I couldn't keep going in life otherwise. But I couldn't claim to be always in the presence of God and I am amazed that you can. Still this has already been picked up on in the Hell thread, so no more needs to be said here.

As for the whole discipline issue, I am someone else who finds it very useful to have some sort of simple structure to my prayer life. BUT that was not always the case, and I think any system can fall into legalism - especially if it is imposed from outside rather than arising out of our relationship with God. Hope that makes sense - I'm about to fall into bed so it probably doesn't.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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daronmedway
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The problem with evangelical spirituality is that it is about making Christians, but not disciples. At risk of stating the obvious the words disciple and discipline share the same root, do they not? Surely, spiritual disciplines are just the practical outworkings of intentional discipleship?

[ 25. October 2005, 22:54: Message edited by: m.t_tomb ]

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Amazing Grace

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JaBotV:

You may wish to explore the idea of spiritual direction. I believe there is a thread in All Saints.

I'll second the motions of prayer, prayer within a community, and some sort of regular study. I have the ECUSA Daily Office book and try to read (or sing!) Compline and the daily Scripture before I go to sleep. Lectio divina is a wonderful tool IMO, but I am usually just propping my eyes open. If you want something less "fixed", there are plenty of resources. (Just don't ask me, because I love the Office and its treasure trove!)

In counterpoint to the "fixed" forms (Daily Office, church attendance) I try to do some free form stuff. Meditating on the Jesus prayer and a lot of really wonderful music are in my mix right now. Lately I've been doing less meditating and more dancing through the house singing at full volume.

Like Sabine, I have found new doors opening in my "going out into the world". It doesn't have to be a religious activity or a religious setting. I find that chopping vegetables is very meditative if I am in the right frame of mind.

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

If I do not have a regular structure for prayer/bible reading it does not happen more often than not and I meander on aimlessly. Having the framework of the discipline (whilst not having to stick to it legalistically), frees me to spend time with God.

It's just that I am always in the presence of my Father through the work of the Lord Jesus. I'm never away from Him. Nor is anyone who has put their trust in him for forgiveness of sins.
Yes, God is always with us; indeed, that was part of my lectio divina yesterday. However, I'm really rather bad at remembering this. Having set times makes me and in getting to him in those times enables me to recognise his presence with me at other times. Here's an analogy, as an undergrad, there was a girl all my lectures and thus we were together a lot of the time. However, I wouldn't really have got to know her if I had not spent time with her when we weren't doing other things (like being taught Old Irish). It was important to make time for that.

quote:

Oh, and is there anything wrong with meandering on aimlessly? When I was little I used to love to do that with my parents.

Poor choice of words on my part. Meandering aimlessly in the sense you've picked up is great, but what I was getting at was slipping into a state of complete unproductivity and possibly even depression. It is very bad for me.

quote:
Frameworks and disciplines I associate with work, study, school and housework, and I like to get away from those things. Thank God I can do it in my relationship with Him.
Whereas one of the struggles I have as an Arts PhD student is that I don't have a pre-existing framework. Unlike the scientists, engineers and mathmos, I don't have an office or a lab in which I am expected to be.* I need the framework to be productive.

*In some ways this is a good thing, because I couldn't hack the culture of working every hour God sends which seems to exist in at least some groups in those departments

quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
The problem with evangelical spirituality is that it is about making Christians, but not disciples. At risk of stating the obvious the words disciple and discipline share the same root, do they not? Surely, spiritual disciplines are just the practical outworkings of intentional discipleship?

Exactly. Discipline and disciple are very closely linked etymologically. As the OED is my friend at least,** I looked it up. Here's the etymology it gives for discipline

quote:

[a. F. discipline (OF. also dece-, dese-, desce-, 11th c. in Hatz.-Darm.), ad. L. discipl{imac}na instruction of disciples, tuition, for discipul{imac}na, f. discipulus pupil, DISCIPLE.

Given we are to make disciples of all nations, it sounds like we need discipline! (Though no doubt someone will tell my etymology is not meaning)

Carys

**The joys of being in academia with subscriptions to such things!

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
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Aah, whilst the OED is my friend, I didn't succeed in making preview post my friend. I tried, but failed to spot the problem with odd characters in what I quoted from the OED. {imac} should have been an i with a macron over it!

Carys

[typo]

[ 26. October 2005, 09:36: Message edited by: Carys ]

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humblebum
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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
No, meeting with my brothers and sisters in Christ is important for me and them, so wild horses wouldn't keep me away. Getting 3 little girls out the door in time sometimes threatens to, though.

Glad to hear it. Most people posting here feel the same way about the other ways we have of setting aside time to be with God - prayer, lectio divina, spiritual direction etc.

Its like taking your wife out to dinner regularly (not that I'm married myself). It's not like you don't already spend lots of time in each other's physical presence anyway, but its valuable to set aside some opportunities to deliberately spend some time paying attention to each other and getting some quality "you and me" time. The rest of the world still exists, as do your family and everything else that puts demands on you, but just for the evening, they are less important than the person sitting on the opposite side of the table from you. Without times like this, its very easy to be spending all the time in the world with someone, but not really communicating or growing in your relationship at all.

(Apologies if people find the marriage analogy an overly sentimental way to describe our relationship with God, but I do think the metaphor holds).

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Carys

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# 78

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quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:
(Apologies if people find the marriage analogy an overly sentimental way to describe our relationship with God, but I do think the metaphor holds).

Your husband and wife analogy works better than my friend from undergrad days one did! Acutally, mine would probably have been better with a school setting rather than a uni one because you spend far more time in the same lessons as people at school. If you only saw people in lessons and never spent break times with them, you wouldn't really know them.

Carys

[eta: school comment]

[ 26. October 2005, 10:17: Message edited by: Carys ]

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Edward Green
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Prayer is a little like breathing. The tempo does vary from time to time, but I don't consider it legalistic to breath in and out regularly.

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Carys

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This topic was brought up in Gordon's hell thread.

Gordon Cheng, PaTDYS and I had the following exchange and as RooK has answered my wondering whether the exchange was purgatorial in the affirmative, I thought I'd copy it up as I want Gordon's response to my last post. (I've quoted my posts as they contain the relevant parts of the others') Sorry for its length and the proof texting!

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Anyway, the only way out of relying on our own experience is God's kindness, and only he can supply that. He gives it freely to those who ask, which is why I think the idea of practising spiritual discipline is potentially insulting. It's like working to pay off a nice Chrissy present.

[brick wall] (The wall's on the wrong side, but hey!)

No, no and thrice no!

Ok, somone gives you a piano for Christmas. Which is the better use of it: leave it in the corner of the room looking pretty or to sit yourself down regularly in front of it and practise (and possibly get yourself some lessons)?

Carys

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Pure as the Driven Yellow Snow:
Isn't this still the legalism versus grace debate.

Do you play your piano out of a sense of duty, cos it is the right thing to do, or do you play it out of thankfulness for the gift it is.


Looking at the intent rather than the same outcome?

But, if the outcome is that you learn to play the piano (which was presumably the idea the giver had in giving you the piano) does it matter if there were times when you only played out of a sense of duty?

Duty can carry you through a time when you're struggling to be thankful for the gift and you're not sure there's any point practising because you're not getting anywhere and you'll never be any good at this piano lark and scales are just boring. It's hard to see at those times that you are getting somewhere and whilst scales are boring they give you the background to be a really good pianist.

In the same way, at times prayer can be hard, and we're convinced that we're useless at it and everything else and we're worse than we were last year and it's all pointless. But praying through those times teaches us more than at the highs. At least that's what C.S. Lewis argues in Screwtape!

Carys

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:

Carys and m.t., I see what you are saying but I just can't see where you would see those ideas in the Bible. Which, because I'm wanting to approach questions like spiritual discipline as an evangelical, matters quite a bit to me.

I'm not an evangelical, so the facts that traditionally such practices have been taught to disciples by the Church and empircally I've found them beneficial are sufficent for me. But I'll try and point to possible starting points.

quote:

Matthew 6:6
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

When, not if.

quote:

Luke 11:2
He said to them, "When you pray, say: " 'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come.

A set form.

quote:
# Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

As I quoted earlier today (I think on the Purg thread) the etymology of discipline is the instruction of disciples, so making disciples involves discipline. And whilst discipline in the sense of what people complain is lacking in schools has move a way from its root, discipline in the sense we are using it hear is a lot less far removed.

quote:
Romans 12:12
Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.

Faithful in this context implies regularly which in turns implies a discipline.

quote:
1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

A temporary discipline (abstaining from sex) is good in order to devote oneself to prayer.

quote:

Ephesians 3:14
[ A Prayer for the Ephesians ] For this reason I kneel before the Father,

Posture as part of prayer, the externals are helpful.

quote:
Colossians 4:2
[ Further Instructions ] Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful.

quote:

I would have problems with the analogy of practising the piano if it were to imply in any way that we begin our Christian lives a long way from God and have to use discipline and practice to get closer to him.

quote:
1 Thessalonians 5:17
pray continually;

The importance of prayer.

I hope that helps. But I ask in return: Where in the Bible does it say that only things explicitly in the Bible are helpful?

quote:

It is quite a nice analogy and I'm sorry to treat it clumsily, but it's as if God not only gave us the piano but transformed us into concert pianists and gave us the desire and the joy of playing. I can already imagine the counter-counter-analogies that might occur, but that's why I ask where such an idea might find its grounding in Scripture?

But even concert pianists need to practise.

In my analogy, I see being a concert pianist as being the equivalent of being like Christ. We are to become more like Christ. I presume you acknowledge that we do not become exactly Christ-like at our baptism/conversion but grow in his likeness as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling?

quote:

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

We are commanded to be change in order that (in the future, change) we will be able to test what God's will is. That is a skill we acquire (in some sense). Setting time aside for prayer is a good way of not conforming to the world's pattern which can tend to excessive busyness.

Carys (who wonders whether this exchange should actually be on the purg thread)



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LutheranChik
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I'm frankly still trying to wrap my head around the mentation of someone who, on a Christian forum, wants to argue about whether spiritual disciplines are a good thing. [Ultra confused]

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Caz...
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# 3026

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I'm frankly still trying to wrap my head around the mentation of someone who, on a Christian forum, wants to argue about whether spiritual disciplines are a good thing. [Ultra confused]

Why? Because it works for you and therefore it must work for everyone?

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by Caz...:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I'm frankly still trying to wrap my head around the mentation of someone who, on a Christian forum, wants to argue about whether spiritual disciplines are a good thing. [Ultra confused]

Why? Because it works for you and therefore it must work for everyone?
I think the problem LC is having is the same one I am--- I've been in a lot of churches, on every inch of the spectrum, and every last one has said "Pray and read the Scriptures", which is prescribing a spiritual discipline, no matter how much you want to split infinitives.

Some of us use the Daily Office, some of us get up an hour early to read the Bible, and some of us roll over in bed in the morning and say, "Oh, God... I don't wanna go to work today." Either way, that's a spiritual discipline (and yes, my own does tend more towards the latter).

[ 26. October 2005, 15:45: Message edited by: Spiffy da Wonder Sheep ]

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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As I also said on the Hell thread, there is a real and healthy debate to have about the amount of discipline and freedom that we need in our Christian lives; both contain blessings and both contain pitfalls. However I, in my admittedly limited experience, have never before come across anyone who claims that the whole discussion is redundant because:
quote:
I am always in the presence of my Father through the work of the Lord Jesus. I'm never away from Him.
Traditionally the Beatific Vision has been reserved for the blessed in Heaven; it is only then that we will know even as we are known.

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humblebum
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# 4358

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Oh man... yeah, after reading Carys' post from the Hell thread I'm struggling with that too.

I am an evangelical (more or less), and I'm fairly certain that Gordon is well off the mark with Evangelical belief and practice on this one.

If you can find any big name from the Evangelical tradition (Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, Packer etc) who has claimed that having any kind of self-discipline in your prayer life is "potentially insulting" to God, I'd be very surprised indeed.

Just to throw in a couple of extra proof texts in with Carys's:

quote:
Matthew 7:16
"And when you fast, don't make it obvious, as the hypocrites do, who try to look pale and disheveled so people will admire them for their fasting. I assure you, that is the only reward they will ever get. But when you fast, comb your hair and wash your face. Then no-one will suspect you are fasting except your Father, who knows what you do in secret. And your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you.

When, not if.

quote:
Ephesians 6:18
Pray at all times and on every occasion in the power of the Holy Spirit. Stay alert and be persistent in your prayers for all Christians everywhere.

"Being persistent" implies some measure of self-discipline, does it not?

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LutheranChik
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quote:
Why? Because it works for you and therefore it must work for everyone?

?????????????????????

Why all the defensiveness? [Ultra confused] [Ultra confused] [Ultra confused]

Is this some sort of cross-continental cultural misunderstanding that this clueless Yank doesn't get?

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
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quote:
Originally posted by Caz...:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I'm frankly still trying to wrap my head around the mentation of someone who, on a Christian forum, wants to argue about whether spiritual disciplines are a good thing. [Ultra confused]

Why? Because it works for you and therefore it must work for everyone?
No because Gordon appears to be saying it doesn't work for him therefore it cannot work for everyone. Maybe spiritual disciplines in general are like auricular confession in particularly: none must; all can; some should. What Gordon appears to be saying though is all must not!

Carys

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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quote:
What Gordon appears to be saying though is all must not!
Indeed. It would be useful if GC could come back here and explain what his position actually is, in case we've all misunderstood him. Useful, but not likely.

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
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quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
quote:
What Gordon appears to be saying though is all must not!
Indeed. It would be useful if GC could come back here and explain what his position actually is, in case we've all misunderstood him. Useful, but not likely.
Indeed. He avoided answering my original question about the better use of the piano you'd been given, preferring to ask for scriptual backing for the idea. I suppose his counter-analogy of God have turned us into concert pianists just like that sort of works. But he hasn't returned to address my point of Christ as concert pianist and us being concert pianists being absolutely like Christ in all ways nor the fact even concert pianists have to practice. Which reminds me that I forgot in proof-texting for him, that I should have pointed to the way in which Christ frequently withdrew from the crowds to spend time in prayer. There was discipline there, although it wasn't absolutely fixed -- when the crowds followed him, he'd talk to them even though he'd been trying to escape. But no-one (at least, I don't think anyone is) is saying that these spiritual disciplines are over-riding of everything as and have to be stuck to or else.* Indeed, having got home at 2:30 last night after quite a demanding conversation and having read for a bit in the hope of diverting my mind from it, such that it was 10 past 3 before I turned the light off. I decided that sleeeeeeeeeep was more important than sticking to my discipline of getting to the morning office which requires my alarm to go off at 7am!

*Talking to a shipmate last night, we wondered whether discipline was being heard in the sense of what people claim is lacking schools and thinking of being punished if you failed. That is not what I mean here.

To be fair to Gordon, I realised after I'd posted last night, that my summary of his position was a bit harsh. Initially that's the impression I got. His last response nuanced it to -- I'm not sure I find this in the Bible and think that you are in danger of being pharasaical. However, whilst warning us of the dangers of legalism (which I agree are many), he seems to me to be coming close to antinominianism which Paul also condemns (even if I can't find the passage I want, but it's the bit where he asks 'should we sin more that grace may abound?'). I was reminded last night of what Screwtape says about making us terrified of falling into the sin at the other end of the pendulum swing from where we are. So in a time of freedom, making is wary of legalism whilst harping on on freedom, when it is antinominianism which is the greater danger.

Carys

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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
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Morning all (Sydney time), just stepping in with a bit of trepidation as I realize, being out of Hell, that I must now turn my brain cells on.

I'm not sure I've said 'spiritual discipline' is wrong, but I do find it a slightly woolly concept. To what does it refer? Does it refer to 'self-discipline' (Humblebum's paraphrase)? If so, then that is part of the fruit of the Spirit (ie self control) and consequently rather hard to argue against. In fact, I wouldn't start.

Or does it refer to something right up the other end of the spectrum (and I don't necessarily say that any of you are suggesting this) corporal mortification, such as the wearing of a cilice (as seen on TV, or rather, I am sure as eggs that we will get the idea from the upcoming Da Vinci movie). From an evangelical perspective, there is a lot to be said about why such practices are questionable.

Obviously from my (conservative evangelical) perspective I oppose the second and support the first.

But the key question for me is not the practice of spiritual discipline itself (although it would be nice to get it a bit defined) but the question of what we think we are achieving by practicing it. Although I don't oppose certain forms of spiritual discipline [still awaiting definition], I don't think we are achieving anything by it. We are already as close to God as it is possible to be this side of heaven, because we are in Christ through faith.

By the way, Carys, thankyou for the Bible texts. I don't believe they support the idea of spiritual discipline in the sense of praying regularly at a set time (for example). I think they support the idea of praying, which I do frequently. At least I think I do, because I don't tend to keep records and I am a bit absent-minded about these things and quite a lot more besides, so my wife tells me.

[ 27. October 2005, 20:47: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]

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AdamPater
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# 4431

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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
We are already as close to God as it is possible to be this side of heaven, because we are in Christ through faith.

Since it's hard avoid being close to him in whom we live and move and have our being, that's a bit of a no-brainer, and the psalmist has a nice song about trying to run away from God.

Yet, close as I am, I am not yet as by the grace of God I will be. I am called to press on in the race, put my hand to the plough, put away the old man, and lots of other stuff which keeps me busy.

Since there's quite a lot to do there, lots of people find it helpful to be intentional and organise one's self about the whole deal, indeed, to be disciplined.

The OP simply asked for ideas and suggestions in this regard. Gordon, what on earth (because I don't believe it's heaven) motivates you to chime in with so much caution and opposition to things that you admit you haven't understood or defined?

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Ian Climacus

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Gordon,

Do you really think we were talking about rolling naked in thorns to counter lust (St Benedict?) or flagellating ourselves on the way to church? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I rather thought it was clear that the spiritual discipline being talked about was with the aim of us overcoming our passions and drawing near to God. Though if people want to roll around in thorns and whip themselves, I won't judge -- even if I may look askance.

quote:
But the key question for me is not the practice of spiritual discipline itself (although it would be nice to get it a bit defined) but the question of what we think we are achieving by practicing it. Although I don't oppose certain forms of spiritual discipline [still awaiting definition], I don't think we are achieving anything by it. We are already as close to God as it is possible to be this side of heaven, because we are in Christ through faith.
Thanks for explaining. But, at least for me, I hold a different point of view.

As Christ said, "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect". Paul makes constant reference to 'finishing the race' and 'struggling against the flesh'. We need to be transformed into the likeness of God, in this world or the next. We need to overcome our sinful desires and our indeed our sin. Christ has accomplished all, Christ has accomplished our redemption: but we still need to do our part. No doubt this is where we start to diverge. [Smile]

It's painful, bloody painful -- but necessary. And, if we aren't perfect at the end of this life, the transformation awaits us after death -- and we need to go through it there.

Ian.

[ 28. October 2005, 00:02: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Although I don't oppose certain forms of spiritual discipline [still awaiting definition], I don't think we are achieving anything by it. We are already as close to God as it is possible to be this side of heaven, because we are in Christ through faith.

It's certainly no wonder that you have no use for spiritual disciplines, since you have already achieved theosis. You're like St. Dosithy, the disciple of St. Dorotheos of Gaza, who had no need to fast or keep watch, because he had already achieved perfect humility and perfect obedience. And you've been there so long, clearly, that you don't even remember what it was like to struggle.

I haven't gotten there yet, though. So, for me, I need spiritual disciplines so that, over time, I may grow to be more like God. You ask for a definition. Here's one: spiritual disciplines are those things that allow me to cultivate virtue and eradicate vice, that make it easier for me to choose to love others and to love God, that take my attention from things that are of no value or that are indeed harmful to me or to others, and to focus my attention on those things that I need in order to be the person that God created me to be.

Spiritual discipline will eventually allow me to overcome sloth, covetousness, vanity, self-pity, and the other sins that I find come so easily to me.

Fasting, a rule of prayer, attendance at services -- all of those are small things that allow me to practice choosing to do something I don't necessarily want to do, or choosing not to do something that I do want. These things may not be important in and of themselves. They are important because there will be times when it IS important to act against my own desires. If I've never practiced doing that, I may not be able to when it really matters.

So I practice it. Not well enough, not often enough, not with enough diligence. But even the little bit of practice that I do manage makes me stronger. So I keep at it.

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Gordon,

Do you really think we were talking about rolling naked in thorns to counter lust (St Benedict?) or flagellating ourselves on the way to church? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I rather thought it was clear that the spiritual discipline being talked about was with the aim of us overcoming our passions and drawing near to God. Though if people want to roll around in thorns and whip themselves, I won't judge -- even if I may look askance.

Y'know, some days that rolling around in thorns bit seems preferable to having to read another.bloody.chapter.of.Leviticus (guess where I am right now in my Scripture reading? Go on, guess!)

I don't though, 'cause that would cause a spectacle (the nearest thorns being the blackberry bushes that front the street fence of my house) and, well, wouldn't be disciplining myself to keep a regular daily schedule. I mean, after a couple of weeks of rolling about, I'dve crushed all the canes and be right out of thorns, and then what would I do?

[ 28. October 2005, 01:05: Message edited by: Spiffy da Wonder Sheep ]

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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
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I'm not sure why people think I've achieved theosis or anything like it. I just know that I'm "in Christ" because of his work and his work alone. So are you, if you trust him.

Phillipians 3:10-12 explains this well, especially the words "not that I have already attained this".

Gotta go, back later.

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