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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Theological Standpoint on Suicide
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Never Conforming
Aspiring to Something
# 4054
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Posted
Looking recently at a thread in Heaven about things your therapist would never say there are many comments about suicide and whether or not it is a good plan.
I thought it would be interesting to know what people think of it theologically?
NOTE
I am aware that many of us know people who have considered (and many who have tried) suicide, so I ask that people tread carefully on this.
Thanks
[ 26. September 2003, 12:11: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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I used to poison Student Minds™ and am proud to have done so
Never Conforming in the Surreal World
Posts: 1419 | From: Oop Norf | Registered: Feb 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Theologically, it depends on what tradition you're talking about. The Catholics clearly reject suicide. I think most Protestants would say it was an evil. That is that life is both a gift and a responsibility, and to end it represents a rejection of that gift and that responsibility. OTOH, some traditions have made exceptions for suicide by the terminally ill, for example.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
This is theological and it concerns suicide though I have never seen it in the traditional debates. It has for me at times been the one straw in a very weak barrier that has stopped me doing this. Let me say that to me the attractiveness of suicide is that it would give me release from the strain of existing.
It is in the form of a single question in a catechism. I am going to call the speakers Q (questioner) and A (answeree who is myself).
Q. Do you believe in Heaven or Hell?
A. both?
Q. Only one needs to be considered to exist and at present you can replace it with any form of after life you prefer.
A. Uhm yes, I suppose so. It is traditional.
Q. Then suicide will not bring about the result you desire.
A. Bother.
Now I can not be sure what the attraction is to others so I will not say this always counts.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Sorry to double post. I was unaware of the situation on the Ship having been on holiday and would if I had been, have made clear in the above post that incidents referred to above is over ten years ago.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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LittleTotty
Shipmate
# 3798
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Posted
Sorry to be ignorant, but what is the situation on the ship. If it's something unsuitable to discuss here would someone PM me to let me know so that I don't end up with my foot in my mouth.
I have contemplated suicide at times of extreme stress as to gain release from feelings that seem unbearable at the time. It seems in those times a cruel joke, as if I were sat in a dark, miserable room with only one door for exit but that which I am forbidden to use. Those are dark times and I think I am fortunate that I have lived through those times, however despairing, and been able to pull through to see a better day.
I can't believe that God would outrightly condemn anyone who committs it.
Posts: 172 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2002
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
I found the following section of G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy a great help in appreciating the Catholic line on suicide: quote:
Under the lengthening shadow of Ibsen, an argument arose whether it was not a very nice thing to murder one's self. Grave moderns told us that we must not even say "poor fellow," of a man who had blown his brains out, since he was an enviable person, and had only blown them out because of their exceptional excellence. Mr. William Archer even suggested that in the golden age there would be penny-in-the-slot machines, by which a man could kill himself for a penny. In all this I found myself utterly hostile to many who called themselves liberal and humane. Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer. When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront. Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act. There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite. But if it comes to clear ideas and the intelligent meaning of things, then there is much more rational and philosophic truth in the burial at the cross-roads and the stake driven through the body, than in Mr. Archer's suicidal automatic machines. There is a meaning in burying the suicide apart. The man's crime is different from other crimes -- for it makes even crimes impossible.
(Copyright not an issue.)
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
HOSTING
This is obviously a painful topic for many people. Please be sensitive in your comments.
Before you post any personal history or experiences, please take a moment to read the Ship's policy on the posting of sucidal ideations (click here). If you aren't sure whether your post would be appropriate, please PM one of the hosts or admins before posting.
Thanks for you help.
scot
Purgatory Host
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by thegreent:
JLs quote ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
You can always take other posters to Hell, if you think they're being insensitive idiots.
Someone could start a Hell thread in which we could all compete to see who could post the most insensitive and offensive quote of the year - but then how could we hope to match a masterpiece like the one above?
L.
[posting as shipmate!]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
It's Chesterton's quote, and certainly represents the hardest line on suicide, showing no sympathy at all for the tormented soul who would do such a thing. Fortunately, Chesterton is not the only voice in official Catholicism.
For a really interesting treatment, see the Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on suicide, which considers such things as whether martyrs who suicided in the face of certain death were excused, and the different sorts of suicide. Catholic Encyclopedia: Suicide
Or skip to something completely different, from the C of E:
quote:
SUICIDE
Traditionally the Christian Churches were very severe on suicides and attempted suicides, refusing the former burial in consecrated ground, since it was argued that the person who committed suicide was expressing his or her total lack of faith in God.
Nowadays, Christians generally recognise that suicide is not so much a deliberate rejection of life as an expression of dissatisfaction with the particular life the person is leading, and in many cases is a cry for help. To take your life is obviously a muddled and unsatisfactory way of responding to an unsatisfactory personal state of affairs, but seeing things in this way has led Christians to treat suicides and potential suicides as they would treat people who were depressed or sick in other ways, ie by seeking to help them where possible, and certainly not to engage in moral condemnation of them. This shift in attitude led this Board to produce Ought Suicide to be a Crime? And to press the Government to change the law so that suicide should no longer be treated as a crime. This change came about in 1961.
(culled from www.cofe.anglican.org)
United Methodist Church, General Board of Church and Society (a much more caring point of view)
quote:
M) Suicide-We believe that suicide is not the way a human life should end. The church has an obligation to see that all persons have access to needed pastoral and medical care and therapy in those circumstances that lead to loss of self-worth, or suicidal despair, and/or the desire to seek physician assisted suicide. We encourage the church to provide education to address the biblical, theological, social and ethical issues related to suicide, including United Methodist theological seminary courses focusing on issues of suicide.
A Christian perspective on suicide begins with an affirmation of faith that nothing, including suicide, separates us from the love of God. (Romans 8:38-39). Therefore, we deplore the condemnation of people who take their own lives, and we consider unjust the stigma that so often falls on surviving family and friends.
We encourage pastors to address this issue through preaching and teaching. We urge pastors to provide pastoral care to attempters, survivors, and their families, and to those families who have lost loved ones to suicide, seeking always to remove the oppressive stigma around suicide. The church does not endorse the enlistment of medical providers, who are charged to cure and to care, to assist people in taking their own lives.
From Our Social Principles II. The Nurturing Community
(back later with more)
[ 26. May 2003, 21:24: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
As a clergy person I have always responded to a suicide situation pastorally. I have never reflected upon it theologically. I would rather respond to the pain, sorrow, guilt and anger (on behalf of both the person who did it and the folk left behind) with the compassionate love of God reflected in my words and actions.
As a person who was "left behind", the love of God was what got our family through, as our respective churches were as Jesus to us.
As the close friend of some-one who has considered it, I have said to her that not only does God love her very much, and we do too, but that she should tell her pyschiatrist- which she did, and appropriate helping practices were administed.
I always have asked myself "WWJD?"
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
The Main-line Lutheran Church in the U.S., the ELCA has a very insightful, caring and dynamic suicide prevention sheet which exhorts Church communities to reach out, and repeats the "nothing can separate us" language of St. Paul.
A Message on Suicide Prevention
quote:
Suicide testifies to life's tragic brokenness. We believe that life is God's good and precious gift to us, and yet life for us ourselves and others sometimes appears to be hell, a torment without hope. When we would prefer to ignore, reject, or shy away from those who despair of life, we need to recall what we have heard: God's boundless love in Jesus Christ will leave no one alone and abandoned. We who lean on God's love to live are called to "bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Our efforts to prevent suicide grow out of our obligation to protect and promote life, our hope in God amid suffering and adversity, and our love for our troubled neighbor.
Increasingly, suicide is being viewed as a serious and preventable public health problem. 2 Suicide and its prevention are complex and multi-dimensional and need to be approached openly and comprehensively. Suicide prevention requires concerted and collaborative efforts from all sectors of society. Let us in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America contribute to these efforts. With this message, the Church Council encourages members, congregations, and affiliated institutions to learn more about suicide and its prevention in their communities, to ask what they can do, and to work with others to prevent suicide.
...
Punitive attitudes form another obstacle to suicide prevention. These attitudes are eager to punish suicidal behavior and often blame the living for suicidal deaths. They create an environment in which suicidal behavior is concealed and persons with suicidal thoughts are reluctant to talk. Punitive attitudes are a carry over from the time when suicide was considered a crime and an unpardonable sin, and when those who completed suicide were denied Christian burial.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
I found the following section of G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy a great help in appreciating the Catholic line on suicide: ...
Wow. I marvel at what you find "helpful", JL. I would think that the Catholic position on suicide might be better clarified by a discussion of, e.g., the scriptural and traditional basis of the deep committment of the Catholic Church to the sanctity of life, all life, more "helpful". Do you find a nice brisk morning body rub with steel wool pads to be "helpful" in appreciating your nerve endings? A nice cup of coffee does it for me.
[ 26. May 2003, 21:36: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Scot, do you have any idea of the SBC position on suicide? I googled, but I kept getting bogged down in the SBC position on sex (very good in marriage), homosexuality (bad), abortion (bad), missions in Africa (very good), and the whole headship thing (debate continues). And anyway, since I understand the Baptist churches are essentially independent, it could vary widely from church to church, is that an accurate assessment?
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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sophs
Sardonic Angel
# 2296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad but written by chesterton:
Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil,
(Copyright not an issue.)
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Why is this helpful JL?
[fixed code]
[ 26. May 2003, 22:22: Message edited by: Scot ]
Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
I rather suspect the SBC sex position to be derived from that on mission.
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
Is this thread "Theological Standpoint On Suicide", or is it "Counselling For Those Contemplating Suicide"? I was under the impression it was the former, and that the latter was no longer considered within the remit of the Ship.
I find Chesterton's quote helpful in explaining the reasons for Catholicism's theological standpoint on suicide. I would not consider it a useful quote to pass to those contemplating suicide.
I hope this clarifies any "issues" other posters may have with my post.
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
Originally posted by thegreent:
JLs quote
You can always take other posters to Hell, if you think they're being insensitive idiots.
Someone could start a Hell thread in which we could all compete to see who could post the most insensitive and offensive quote of the year - but then how could we hope to match a masterpiece like the one above?
L.
[posting as shipmate!]
I'm sorry Louise, but I can't see how this constitutes reasoned debate. Any chance that you could enlighten me?
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
My problem with having a theological standpoint on suicide is that I can not do it. From my own experience and from the experience of many who have traveled with and near me. I am constantly forced by this issue into unfathomable paradoxes.
How does one reconcile a human born less able, abused and tormented, never having anyone to love or trust who did not wound them further. Who everyday may pray for death. With a loving God. We live in a world that is at times hugely cruel and some seem beyond any help.
The theological reflection I can manage is that only when people are at rock bottom does anyone seem to notice. By then it may be to late and again paradoxically that may be the only time that the Christian hope of new life from death may show itself. Often death of self and hopefully not physical death. And it is that rock bottom that brings in its hands the seeds of hope. Strange.
Again the paradox of those who have survived suicide and gone one to lead lives beyond their hopes or dreams.
In my prayers everyday I pray for the departed, those who died alone, those who died and have no one to pray for them and those who in despair took their own lives. I could not begin to comprehend one tenth of what some go through, how can I judge? And again in a reflection of our recent discussions about shipboard policy it is those who find themselves and some hope (and maybe even a little faith) who come back. This hope can not, in my experience, be given. Only mercifully received.
I am a little tired of “the church says.” There is not one ethical issue that can be covered by “the church says.” To often said in fear and loathing. It smacks of a pharisaic legalism.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
I personally find the theological positions on suicide which I have previously encountered (including the Catholic position) to be ineffectual in terms of actual life experience, and Pyx_e's post strikes a chord for me.
Have any Shipmates had to wrestle with practical dealings in this area, and been able to forge a satisfying theological understanding as a result?
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
I'm sorry Louise, but I can't see how this constitutes reasoned debate. Any chance that you could enlighten me?
It constitutes reasoned debate in the same way that this does:
quote:
I rather suspect the SBC sex position to be derived from that on mission.
How about you leave the hosting to those whose job it is?
JL, than you for clarifying that the Chesterton quote was intended to be helpful in understanding the Roman Catholic teaching. I'm sure you realize that once you post such a thing, you are likely to be challenged on it. You may even cornered into a choice between defending or denying it.
Everyone, as I said before, please be sensitive in your comments.
scot
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
OK, because this thread looks sticky, I'll reply by PM.
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
I'm sorry Louise, but I can't see how this constitutes reasoned debate. Any chance that you could enlighten me?
It constitutes reasoned debate in the same way that this does:
quote:
I rather suspect the SBC sex position to be derived from that on mission.
?
I disagree.
There was indeed implicit reasoning in my post.
I'm not sure that there was in Louise's, and would like to find out.
quote:
How about you leave the hosting to those whose job it is??
I certainly intend to. How does challenging Louise's view constitute "hosting"?
quote:
All views are welcome – orthodox, unorthodox, radical or just plain bizarre – so long as you can stand being challenged.
Having said all that, I respect your authority on this thread, and if you rule against me, I'll abide by that.
Please don't reply immediately.
Best wishes,
H&E
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
Oh b*****! ![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif)
Apologies, sackcloth and ashes....
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
Originally posted by thegreent:
JLs quote
You can always take other posters to Hell, if you think they're being insensitive idiots.
Someone could start a Hell thread in which we could all compete to see who could post the most insensitive and offensive quote of the year - but then how could we hope to match a masterpiece like the one above?
L.
[posting as shipmate!]
I'm sorry Louise, but I can't see how this constitutes reasoned debate. Any chance that you could enlighten me?
It's not part of the cut and thrust of debate to comment on the style of debate and the options of other debaters?
My mistake. Let me spell it out for you.
Suicide is a painful subject.
Some people on these boards have had close brushes with it.
Therefore when someone posts a deeply insensitive chunk of prose on the subject, people are likely to get hurt and offended.
I hate it when I see that kind of thoughtlessness.
Therefore I may wish to make the odd acid remark tending to characterise such quotes as being insensitive.
Is that enough argument for you? I thought what I said at first was clear enough.
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
Thank you for your graciousness in spelling it out for me. Louise.
I want to apologise to everyone for turning this thread into such a train-wreck. :hangs head:
I shall not be posting again, unless required to by a host.
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
JL's Chesterton quote is one particular theological response to the issue of suicide. And I will take JL's word for it that it is in some way representative of a (the?) Roman Catholic Church view on the subject. And indeed many Christians of other denominations/churches might agree. Philosophically it might even open up all kinds of interesting debate about the responsibility for life-living and life-taking, as in do we have the right to take life, if it is our own?
But as much as I usually enjoy Chesterton's theological contributions, I feel this quote fails particularly in a few areas. Eg, there's an unrealistic hint of hyperbole, ref: his response to Archer's penny-in-a-slot machines, where those who seek to end their own lives are represented as queuing up to blythly kill themselves, in the way folks queue up to take a fairground ride, or play with the penny-machines in the amusement arcade. I would question the realism of this comparison, or this fear of Chesterton's about the 'modern' future as portrayed by Archer.
And I can't see how killing oneself is the 'ultimate and absolute evil'. I have to be honest and admit that the first time I heard of a friend of mine who had killed himself, I was very angry with him! I called him selfish and cowardly and every angry name under the sun, because, like a bad participant in an argument, he had had the last word, slammed the door, and prevented anyone else from a come-back comment! And of course those left behind had to deal with all these awful feelings.
It was wrong, it was selfish, it was many things. But it wasn't ultimately and absolutely evil. He wasn't evil either, he was distressed to the point of hopeless despair - despite his Christian faith. And if he was subject to God's judgement, as some might believe he should have been (though how quick folk are to forget that even God's judgement is rooted in his love for us), he was certainly as much subject to and deserving of God's mercy and love.
Even while I railed at my friend, for a while, I knew that he was with God, and that God was good and God was love. That God holds us accountable for the life he gives us might be an interesting debate to have. The kind of people taking their own lives in the Chesterton quote seem to be intent on deliberately 'punishing' the world around them; does this address the pastoral and incredibly complex circumstances that often accompany extreme self-harm? I don't believe it does, though it seems very angry and condemnatory about the behaviour itself.
Like Rowan, the practical person's response to suicide situations, I believe, should be pastorally motivated. Applied theology or Practical theology might be kinder to the suicidal person than Chesterton's theological and philosophical standpoint, as it tends to lean on the experiential.
But the Chesterton 'ivory tower' position sounds like a rather cold-blooded exposition on the philosophical mechanics of self-extinction, within the context of a perfectly viable world; rather than the reality, which is the hot-blooded, though usually calm acceptance of utter despair, within the context of a life which has become hopelessly unviable.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
I think the Chesterton quote may have some (improbably) rare applications eg. for people of sound mind who choose death out of a philosophy of nihilism (And at the moment I can't think of any. Emile Zola purportedly?) - but in all other cases it displays a breath-taking lack of understanding of mental illness.
Outside of depressive or other mental illness (or even moments of diminished responsibility/crisis situations in otherwise well people*), I agree with the Chesterton quote: it is the ultimate rejection of God's Creation. But in terms of it's applicability - it is certainly not a blue print for a pastoral response (not just inappropriate, but damaging). He is making a point about the great value of God's Creation and I do find it shocking that anyone in possession of their faculties could choose to reject it**, however, the point could have been made without villifying people who contemplate/commit suicide.
* The theological position of people against suicide regarding a person who kills themselves in the expectation of terrible torture or degradation would be interesting to know. How much does God expect us to put up with? Do we remove the chance for divine agency? Is it still rejecting the Creation if we refuse to embrace what is in store for us? Generally I find the contemplation of such things quite macabre.
** I think that it necessarily follows that someone who rejects God's Creation is not in possession of their faculties. (The same sort of argument as to why Hell will not be populated eternally ie. Christian universalism - no-one in their right mind could reject God eternally)
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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The Lad Himself
Accidental stowaway
# 2073
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Posted
Far as I'm concerned, when my brother did it, he was insane. That in my view absolved him of guilt. He had previously given his life to Christ; he had descended rapidly into a madness of lonely adolescence.
I do believe people go to hell. I don't believe they go for committing suicide per se - I don't believe it's possible simply to commit suicide, any more than it's possible to simply kill a man. There's always more to it than that, like murder or self-defense might affect the eternal effect of killing of another human.
These things are always the culmination of a process during which we make choices. Apocalyptic choices.
Don't you worry about those who have already passed over. Get yourself to saving those who still might let themselves fall.
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new blog: crazywise.org
Posts: 2302 | From: Southport, UK | Registered: Dec 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Lad Himself:
I do believe people go to hell. I don't believe they go for committing suicide per se - I don't believe it's possible simply to commit suicide, any more than it's possible to simply kill a man. There's always more to it than that, like murder or self-defense might affect the eternal effect of killing of another human.
That's right. There is just more to it than that.
New Church (Swedenborgian) teaching is that no single act determines whether a person goes to heaven or hell. It is an accumulation of life choices, and the person himself goes where he wants to be. Suicide is only one piece of that puzzle.
According to New Church theology, every person is surrounded by good spirits and evil spirits who exercize a constant influence on him or her through his or her feelings and moods. In some ways these things are controlled by the person himself, so that a person chases away or attracts associate spirits through his choices, and in other ways. But a variety of factors often puts these things beyond the person's control, such as mood swings associated with heredity, hormonal cycles, mental and physical sicknesses, and environmental factors such as social pressure.
According to this thinking, one of the tragic aspects of suicide is that the evil spirits, who stir up the feelings of despair and worthlessness that usually precede it, are actually comparatively remote from the person. The person does not see or hear them, and is not even aware of them. The terrible feelings appear to be self-generated. Tragically, however, if a person commits suicide he leaves this world and enters the spiritual world where these spirits are. He then comes face to face with the source, as it were, of his feelings, having jumped from the frying pan into the fire. In a sense, he is then in their clutches and can suffer terribly. But this completely depends on the person's real situation, and is obviously different in every case. A person who is actually insane, for example, might simply be freed of their illness.
Happily, the person's real nature wins out in the end, and they eventually come through it, if they are willing. It is a terrible and unhappy way to end life in this world, but it does not by itself, in the long run, determine the person's fate - at least according to what I have been taught.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Coot, as much as i usually love your comments....
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus Coot:
Outside of depressive or other mental illness (or even moments of diminished responsibility/crisis situations in otherwise well people*), I agree with the Chesterton quote: it is the ultimate rejection of God's Creation. ...God's Creation and I do find it shocking that anyone in possession of their faculties could choose to reject it**,
** I think that it necessarily follows that someone who rejects God's Creation is not in possession of their faculties. (The same sort of argument as to why Hell will not be populated eternally ie. Christian universalism - no-one in their right mind could reject God eternally)
Coot - i think this argument is as good as 'why does anyone in their right mind smoke/ drink/eat too much etc.'In an ideal world where we all act according to the one true way, fine, but in rality im not sure its so clear cut.
In terms of rejection of Gods creation - do you think thats how someone at their wits end would see it?
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Greent,
No, I guess that was my point: people who kill themselves because they are 'at their wits end' are not doing it in a rejection of the Creation ie. I think it is a pathological response and they are to an extent outside of morality. Ordinary standards of morality are not applicable. (I say 'to an extent' because except maybe in florid psychosis we mostly have a choice)
But the ** comment was my thought that even those who who do it in an apparent rejection of the Creation (I am thinking of the possibility of nihilists or Satanists) are 'not in possession of their faculties', which is a bit strong, but basically, in the same way that Christian Universalists (I'm thinking Orthodox thought on Hell) say no-one who knows the truth of God can eternally reject him; no-one who has enough awareness of God can reject him and the Creation. I suppose what I'm saying in another way is, 'Only sane people can choose to reject the Creation, but if you choose to reject the Creation it means you are not sane'. Heh!
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
The Chersterton quote seems distanced from the reality of real lives ; frighteningly so. Perhaps this shows the limitations of doctrine in situations which, by their very nature, cannot be neatly packaged up into some sort of edict or guideline.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Scandal
Shipmate
# 4185
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Posted
Like Rowen I have been too busy ministering to those left behind in pain, distress and feeling terrible failures becaue they hadn't seen this coming or prevented it happening. You get close to the family when you help scrub up the mess left behind as they blow their brains out!
But theologically??? Thou shalt not murder is pretty clear in the 10 commandments, but can you murder yourself?
I can only conclude from my pastoral ministry that those who kill themeselves do so because they can no longer handle the world and its lack of care or feeling on their behalf. They die hopeless and that is a deperately sad reflection on those of us who survive .... for ALL of us have failed to help them see that their life does matter, that there is something worth living for.
I have often spoken to the relatives and friends left behind of how God would view the suicide of their loved one, because this is a question that they keenly feel, however tenuous their undersanding or hold on God may be. They also feel isolated because this is still seen as something terrible and sinful by the world in general.
I tend to use Roman 8 as it sums up clearly the faith that NO ONE is beyond God's loveand that NOTHING can separate us from him.
My own personal feeling is that God has a special corner reserved for such as these. A place where he can strive with them to see and understand that he does care and that others do care; that they do matter and that they are loved beyond all telling.
I'm taking 'theological' here, to mean, 'where does God come into this' as opposed to a code invented by human agencies.
Posts: 145 | From: uk | Registered: Feb 2003
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
But the Chesterton 'ivory tower' position sounds like a rather cold-blooded exposition on the philosophical mechanics of self-extinction, within the context of a perfectly viable world; rather than the reality, which is the hot-blooded, though usually calm acceptance of utter despair, within the context of a life which has become hopelessly unviable.
That's exactly what it is. Jesuitical Lad can look after himself, but I'm prepared to defend Chesterton. The quote comes from 'Orthodoxy' which is a defence of Catholic Christianity against 'modern' philosophies. Chesterton is defending the value of life against Victorian philosophers who maintained that life was a good only if it was accompanied by other goods. It's a philosophical argument, rather than a discussion of the pastoral realities which confront a counsellor for the Samaritans or a parish priest at the graveside of someone who has killed themselves.
I think that JL might have been better served, if he wanted to demonstrate the official Roman Catholic position by linking to the passages in the Catechism (go to www.vatican.va and follow the links) which maintains that whilst suicide is a sin, responsibility can be mitigated by a number of factors and that the Church does not despair of the salvation of those who commit suicide and continues to pray for their souls. I think that this is about right. I don't think that suicide, in abstract, can be defended as a morally good action but suicides rarely happen in abstract. Clearly the case of someone who, say, is suffering from mental illness or great physical pain is complicated by these factors and to apply the Chesterton passage, ripp'd untimely out of context, in these circumstances is clearly inappropriate. I've known a number of people who have committed or contemplated suicide and in every instance the most important thing to do has been to support the living and pray for the dead, rather than to worry about the ethical licitness of suicide.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JL:
From Chesterton:
Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin.
I'm failing to understand how suicide is a worse sin/crime than torturing people, or abusing children? Because, afaik, these things do not get you automatically condemned to Hell, yet suicide does, or did, depending on your view point.
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Do you find a nice brisk morning body rub with steel wool pads to be "helpful" in appreciating your nerve endings?
No, that's me. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Actually, my understanding of the reason for the forbidding (forbiddance?) of suicide is on grounds that it is murder -- just murder of one's self -- and that one does not have the right to do that even when it is oneself.
I generally agree with both Chesterton's quote (!) AND with the people who say that mental illness is a mitigating factor. I don't think that all suicide is a result of mental illness, and there really have been people like Archer who proposed self-killing machines, which is what Chesterton was arguing with. And I do think that "For God's sake, there's a bluebird outside your window -- if you cannot live for the sake of anything else, live for that bluebird's sake" is a valid, and quite rational, argument, whether or not someone struggling with despair can understand it at the time.
Saying that to commit suicide is a sin, AND that people can be in circumstances (whether emotional or otherwise) which might tempt them to near the breaking point, aren't mutually exclusive. Insofar as someone isn't responsible for their actions, then I'd say that they would hold less responsibility for that action too, and I do believe that if God can forgive other sins, then the physical act of suicide can be forgiven as well. But I do believe it is forbidden to us as Christians.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
But what real help is it to inform them of that if they were in mental distress, or were suffering from a disease which could be medically sustained ,in terms of life in years ?
I would hope that I never foresee a time when I would wish to take my own life, but in the absence of voluntary euthanasia I would have no doubts that certain circumstances may cause me to do so.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Thank you, Jesuitical Lad for reminding me why I dislike Chesterton so much.
The absolute sin, for Christians, is failure to love.
Individual instances of suicide may or may not be objectively sinful depending on motivation, state of mind and all sorts of other things we will never know about a person at their time of acting. The Christian attitude towards anyone who has committed suicide is to entrust them in love to God and to hope in God's reconciliation of all creation. Pompus abstract moralising of the GKC is about as unchristian as you can get.
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insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I think Chesterton's statement will also make sense if we put it in context not of someone committing suicide in emotional torment/anguish, but of philosophical despair or nihilism. It starts not with "Someone whose spouse left them for someone else, leaving them destitute in the street" but:
quote:
Under the lengthening shadow of Ibsen, an argument arose whether it was not a very nice thing to murder one's self. Grave moderns told us that we must not even say "poor fellow," of a man who had blown his brains out, since he was an enviable person, and had only blown them out because of their exceptional excellence. Mr. William Archer even suggested that in the golden age there would be penny-in-the-slot machines, by which a man could kill himself for a penny.
This particular attitude isn't as popular today as I think it was in Chesterton's day. He's not arguing with the lonely person in torment who sees no way out of a desperate situation (though he would still counsel them not to give in to despair) -- he's arguing with a very real belief which may play no part in that sort of person's train of thought.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
Generally, when a person is ill, we don't hold them responsible for their actions. For example, if a very sick person accidentally vomits on my brand new carpet, I don't say "You are implicitly rejecting the beautiful gift of this carpet and my authority as owner of this house. Because you have chosen this path, you are therefore required to make recompense for your error, and to clean the carpet."
People who commit suicide have a mental illness, usually depression. Suicide is a fatal symptom of this illness.
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sarkycow:
Because, afaik, these things do not get you automatically condemned to Hell, yet suicide does, or did, depending on your view point.
It's a sin which, if committed with full consent and undertanding etc. (i.e. fulfilling all the criteria for a sin to be mortal) can not, by its nature, be repented of. I think that would be the main problem.
[fixed quote]
[ 27. May 2003, 14:05: Message edited by: Scot ]
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
People who commit suicide have a mental illness, usually depression.
I'd say that some do but not all. I don't think it's intrinsic at all to the act.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
It's a sin which, if committed with full consent and undertanding etc. (i.e. fulfilling all the criteria for a sin to be mortal)
And there might be the rub here -- i.e., in any given case, how much consent and understanding is there? I think that really will depend on the person and their circumstances. I agree that it is a sin, even pretty much wholeheartedly with what Chesterton says (I'll say that it's helped bring me out of some pretty dark times myself, his essay -- i.e., "Yes! Life is worth living, dammit! Even if it's really rough right now!" etc. though I don't know that I can say I've been tempted to suicide per se...), but at the same time someone who is in a certain state of mind may not be able to see it at all, and perhaps particularly these days with the greater degree of isolation people have, the circumstances mitigate things quite a bit.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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LittleTotty
Shipmate
# 3798
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
...no single act determines whether a person goes to heaven or hell. It is an accumulation of life choices, and the person himself goes where he wants to be. Suicide is only one piece of that puzzle.
![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Freddy, as ever
What is a theological standpoint anyway? Is it not just an intellectualism of spirituality, humanity and religion? (I ask that as a question, not as a statement). So to take a theological view of suicide in cases of extreme mental, physical, or as Freddy pointed out spiritual stress, are we not just missing the point, as some others have mentioned, of our call to love people not bog them down with religious thinking and morals???
I found Freddy's post helpful because it has helped me to see why at times I have felt so low and not been able to explain or have any reason for my feelings. And why those feelings have passed...almost as if satan has put me on his hit list and too lazy to do the job himself wants me to carry it out for him.
Unlike other quotes - the Chesterton one in particular, though I see it is out of context and rings no bells with me - Freddy's words are empowering, strengthening and altogether helpful. But I think it might be useful to have some case studies as there surely can be no one cut and dried response to suicide and it seems to me at the moment that we are all talking about different things ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
For example, didn't Hitler kill himself?
[fixed UBB for quote]
[ 27. May 2003, 15:15: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
Posts: 172 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2002
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
quote:
Originally posted by sarkycow:
Because, afaik, these things do not get you automatically condemned to Hell, yet suicide does, or did, depending on your view point.
It's a sin which, if committed with full consent and undertanding etc. (i.e. fulfilling all the criteria for a sin to be mortal) can not, by its nature, be repented of. I think that would be the main problem.
[fixed quote]
And you know that for a fact do you?
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insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
And you know that for a fact do you?
Well, it's a doctrinal thing, isn't it? For JL, Roman Catholic theology is going to be intrinsically correct, just as I take tradition as paramount and some people take the Old and New Testaments as paramount -- whether we fully understand it or not, we can still accept it. It doesn't mean we have to hold such doctrines with a nasty attitude, or even be comfortable with them, or even for that matter wanting to believe it. The truth might be something so difficult to handle that one would cut off one's arms and legs to keep from thinking about it but it could still be true. It doesn't mean anyone who holds an unpleasant doctrine is doing so out of arrogance...
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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sophs
Sardonic Angel
# 2296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by thegreent:
In terms of rejection of Gods creation - do you think thats how someone at their wits end would see it?
Personally i do see it as a rejection of Gods creation.
I have always seen suicide (and self harm) as my rejection of something that God created...If i had to liken it to some theological thing, i'd say it was blasphemy against the holy spirt (whihc i was told meant seeing something God did and saying it was of the devil, not sure how theological that is) it is deliberetly turning away from gods creation, hating it to the point of destroying it...
But it's forgivable.
IMHO it hurts God like crazy, doesn't make him angry it makes him upset...'cos he can see the pain and the brokenness there. I don't think God could condem someone who was broken. I hope not anyway.
(sorry if this post is insensitive, or in some way against the policy...)
Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002
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Jerry Boam
Shipmate
# 4551
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Posted
Hmmmm...
There are a number of blanket statements being made about suicide witht the implicit presumption that all suicide is basically a choice made by very depressed people.
A number of people have taken a more nuanced position and suggest that suicide in the context of mental and physical illness is categorically different than suicide by a healthy person.
I find it hard to believe that anyone does not take this view and suspect that abstract positions will always tend to collapse when the issue is confronted in the life of someone known and loved (parents, children, lovers, friends, spouses).
As for the Chesterton, ChastMastr, what can I say: ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
"an insult to all women" ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
Posts: 2165 | From: Miskatonic University | Registered: May 2003
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