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Originally posted by Jengie:
However I am aware of many of the pastoral care courses which stress how much more a hug can say than words. I know many people very much appreciate touch.

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I was taught the complete opposite as touching anybody in a pastoral context could be misinterpreted and that we could find ourselves in trouble. This is particularly true if dealing with somebody who is particularly distraught. Even worse if someone is mentally ill or drunk, or the worst scenario of all, mentally ill and drunk. Generally speaking (from a male perspective) a woman would be likely to interpret it as an unwelcome sexual advance and a man to take it as an act of aggression.

::uuuuurrghh::

Jengie, do you have to put such a personal problem you sound as if you're seriously dealing with ... in hell???

If so. Well! I may have some fun with you problem!

"If so, well, I may have to have some fun with your problem."

Now.. I have a problem... it's called typing.

I suck at it.

Slightly more seriously, touch is a very important tool in pastoral work. As such, it should be used with care and consideration, especially consideration for the person being touched. In a pastoral situation, I would always ask permission before touching, because it can be a very big issue. In church, I would love to hug lots of people, but tend only to hug those who have indicated that they are happy with it.

I try to take the attitude that this person may have suffered abuse at some point, and that may not be resolved. The touch of another person may be something that will scare them away, rather than enable them to open up and address the issues. I tend to assume that they may have been abused within a pastoral church situation. It makes me very aware of what their feelings might be. This is not to suggest that they have been abused ( or that you Jengie has been ), but it helps me to read the signs better.

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Originally posted by Jengie:
The question is how do we strike the right balance between respecting those who do not wish to touch and those that do.

Jengie

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You do just that - respect their wishes either way?

On a general note, if I don't know someone well enough to know whether touch is ok, and I want to hug them, or touch their shoulder etc, I usually ask. Along the lines of 'Is it ok if...'. That way it's more ok for them to say no.

And usually people make it kinda obvious - especially if they don't want to be touched - through their body language.

So (for me personally) people with arms crossed tightly, or wrapped around them; leaning away from me; moving slightly away as I reach forward; slight wary look; wide-eyed panic as all around start hugging - all this kinda thing would stop me from touching.

I guess others wil have a lot more to say,

For example at v. high C of E churched it is very unusual for you to shake hands with anyone, apart from the person you came with, while going to fairly low C of E churches/'free evangelical' hugging everyone during the peace is a normal act. I think you learn those who appreciate a hug and those who qould prefer to have their handshaken.

I agree with Spike on hugging during pastorial care. You have to ask someone if they want a hug, otherwise it is possible to have it taken the wrong way, and 'sexual harshment' conduct is brought up.

‘Abuse of authority’

‘Inappropriate behaviour’

and

‘Knee to the groin’

Think about how 'physical' you would be with a stranger, and you simply don't go beyond that line in counselling.

One of the simplest ways of avoiding hugs etc in church is to walk up to someone with your hand extended. The vast majority of people will simply shake your hand.

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The vast majority of people will simply shake your hand.

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At the 'peace' again, it's usually shaking hands (very British), with various others hugging/kissing - once, twice, three times! - these continentals

But we had an abuser in our midst, who was hugging, kissing, touching people under the pretence of 'sharing the peace' and at other times. We took a while to really appreciate what was going on, and that he was regularly assaulting many people, and by that time we had gone through all the usual things - keep your elbow firmly down at your side and stiffly hold out your hand to shake so he can't get near you - say, "I don't want a hug/kiss!" - say "Don't touch me!" etc.

Eventually we had to organise a proper official confrontation. He has left the church. It was all very horible. It feels much safer now.

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Talk about space invaders!

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Lovely phrase, Tina.

Another hard part of the equation though it those that really want hugs or physical contact, especially those who never get it anywhere else, but who are so bad at giving and receiving it that they rarely initiate it and often seem to be uncomfortable when it is initated by someone else, even when they really welcome it - if you seem not to be reciprocating in a hug, it may just be because you are bad at hugging.

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Originally posted by babybear:
I hate the idea of a bear being crossed out!

bb

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You hug if you want to and don't if you don't want to, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

Other similar complaints- churches with prayer ministry people that actually try to push you over when praying with you. This happened to me once at the height of the Toronto blessing thing, and being a very new christian at the time I was pretty alarmed by it.

And my other pet hate- air kissing. I work in an industry where there's an awful lot of it, and it's one of the most false and empty gestures I know. So I get really annoyed when someone tries it at church

I'll stop ranting now.

I also remember a young couple many years earlier who were overly affectionate towards one another...

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Something that was suggested to me as a housegroup leader was to lay a hand gently on the person's wrist, and be prepared to withdraw it if it wasn't welcomed.

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I'd have thought the wrist a very aggressive touch from a stranger. Disabling, potentially, if someone grabs it. Upper arms, shoulders, backs, all less invasive.

Those who are not comfortable with hugging will leave it at that. Those who ARE "huggers" will usually initiate a hug themselves. I leave that choice up to them. In my experience, almost all the "grandmotherly" types are major league huggers.

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Originally posted by Jengie:
I am starting this in Hell as I know that a lot of people have very strong opinions on it.

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There's nothing wrong with expressing strong opinions in Purgatory, and this is a very reasonable, non-Hellish discussion, so I'm moving it up to Purgatory.

I've discussed this issue several times with a fellow extremly-high-introvert friend who used to go to the same Jesus Iz Way Kool college church I did. We said things like, "I'm dreading the sign of peace today."

Luckily I've now found a service that suits my style -- 7 a.m. Sunday (not many twentysomethings up then!), where there's about fifty retired farmers and myself in a space built for several hundred. Not only are there no hugs to dread, everyone's usually so spread out that there's not even anyone close enough to insist on a handshake! It's great, we all just aim good-natured nods at each other from a distance.

Thus, men who may hug women more than men (and that includes me and probably applies to the majority of men) do so because physical contact with other men can often provoke negative reactions.

However, I think the closeness of relationship is important - I don't embrace people who I don't know well, and I don't embrace those who don't like it. Following that rule means that from an external observer's point of view, I could be seen as predatory as I know more women well than men, and the difference when considering those who are more physical, that difference is even bigger.

What do us gold ole' English do when we ever ever ever so lightly graze someone in the street? "Oh, I'm sorry!" We are scared stiff of touch and so the fear generates a salaciousness of touch, the hint that there might be more to it than comfort .... and there sometimes is. Many often say that evil creates fear ... forgetting that often it works the other way round as well ... fear generates evil.

Quoting from Spike

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I was taught the complete opposite as touching anybody in a pastoral context could be misinterpreted and that we could find ourselves in trouble

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Thanks. My basis was on pretty limited experience though I have been on basic pastoral care courses. I am sure that those who echo Spike sentiments are correct and this is modern practise.

Steve said:

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Jengie - you need to go for the Goth look - leather, spikes piercings. Then no-one will come near you. (apologies in advance to those Goths on baord).

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Well I do to a certain extent follow the intent here. I'm not a Goth but I can cultivate the formidable women at times and that can be quite effective at least as far men are concerned.

Questia - I can at least understand in part I have a fairly similar response at healing services. Though I would say your concerns were much more worrying than mine.

Father Gregory

Touch need not be sexual to be abusive. It can be used to place yourself in a position of power over someone.

In at least one situation I have been in I know for certain that the touch was not sexual on either part. The touch itself was not abusive but used to further a very toxic emotional game.

takes me back to 6th form where a gang of us used to greet each other with a pinch and pat of the cheek! always felt good.

Suggested rules of thumb!
IMHO index of intimacy goes- handshake without eye contact-awkward
Hug without eye contact- awkward
Handshake with eye contact and smile- good
Hug with eye contact and smile -good.
Hug you want to stop and rest in- intimate, friendly and good, with someone you trust.
Hugging someone you know you ought to find time to listen to and feel vaguely guilty about- bad idea.
Hugs from people who've never bothered to talk to you- bad idea, decline gracefully

Rules of thumb-suggested. Make eye contact and smile first. Base decision on whether to shake hands or hug on length of eye contact and what you feel/ intuit other person feels.

Golden rule- more physical than emotional/mental contact is selfish and poss abusive.

Hugging people you love is natural. Hugging people you don't really love feels unnatural. However sometimes people you find hard to love need a hug. Be open to the possibility, but be aware that a hug signals that you're also available to listen.

Look at a train or bus that is filling up so people can no longer sit on their own. Women who find they have to sit next to a stranger tend to choose to sit next to a woman. Men tend to choose to sit next to a woman as well. Both sexes are much less likely to sit next to a strange man.

This is almost always irritating if you are a bloke and the last seat taken is the one next to you, which normally happens to me, because you feel that everyone is scared of you, which is a bad feeling.

Though it can be useful. On one long crowded train journey from London to somewhere in the west country in very hot weather no-one sat next to me the whole way even though it was standing-room only till Oxford and every other seat was taken. I was grateful for it then. But usually it just pisses me off.

Applies to church as well. I think I quite like hugs, but I know that many people don't so I wouldn't go up and force a hug on someone, so, in practice, no-one other than my own daughter is likely to want to hug me.

yes one of the collars with the 2 inch long spikes will definitely discourage hugs. Problem is you might find people are so scared of you they may not approach you at all.......

People are talking mostly about hugs, but it is quite possible to be abusive whilst merely shaking someone's hand. This man who goes to our church used to come up to me during the Peace with a big evangelical smile pasted to his face, seize my hand in a death-grip and grind my rings against my bones. It hurt like hell. After a few months of this, I tried to ensure that I was always looking the other way when he approached my pew.

I was never quite sure whether his attempts to crush my hand were inspired by a spirit of Christian love, or sadism. But now I'm in the choir, so I am well protected from him.

Incidentally, the 'women hug other women' applies to our choir, but we don't hug the men.

My experience that it is always the prayer who will reach out and seek contact.

That means there is a power relationship in who touches and who is touched.

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Originally posted by Jengie:
Anyone ever considered prayer and touch. How often does the prayed for ever initiate the touching.

My experience that it is always the prayer who will reach out and seek contact.

That means there is a power relationship in who touches and who is touched.

Jengie

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Absolutely - that's one of the things we teach our prayer ministry people - and we deliberately use praying for each other in the team as part of the training. So they get to feel both vulnerable and affirmed.

And we practise checking out physical boundaries by walking towards each other and making eye contact, seeing how close we feel comfortable sitting with each other (our prayer is usually done sitting next to the prayed-for person, in a fairly private part of the church which is in view but out of earshot of the rest of the congregation), and observing how many different reactions we have.

However, we do have people who come for prayer and try to snuggle up to us too close for our comfort, and also some who fling their arms around us or kiss us.....there can be a 'power' thing from them as well.

I have read both your responses and been impressed. It sounds like you are extraordinary thorough. I particularly like it that you do not just teach it but practise it.

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Originally posted by Jane R:
... it is quite possible to be abusive whilst merely shaking someone's hand. This man who goes to our church used to come up to me during the Peace with a big evangelical smile pasted to his face, seize my hand in a death-grip and grind my rings against my bones. It hurt like hell.

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I have had that done to me. I knew enough about the men who did it to be sure that there was no aggressive intent.

I think the problem was that they had never been taught how to shake hands.

Moo

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Originally posted by Steve:
Jengie - you need to go for the Goth look - leather, spikes, piercings. Then no-one will come near you.

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Originally posted by gbuchanan:
Then there's the limp lettuce handshake, which is just as appalling. Are folks so dim that they need instruction on handshakes?

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No of course not. We are all born knowing how to do that.

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That means there is a power relationship in who touches and who is touched.

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