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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church
Eddy
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The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church is available here.

Apparently the LCC say their liturgy comes from the Orthodox liturgy. To me it seems like our Mass.

However, two things immediately stand out to me. First of all their are no prayers of the faithful. I thought theyd be in everyone's mass somewhere.

Secondly, after the words of 'consecration or transubstantiation' it says this:

quote:
After some moments of silent adoration, the following verse shall be sung very softly, all devoutly kneeling:

All Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.

Now, I think thats so nice and it would be nice to do say at Corpus Christi, but not at every Mass - even at weekdays?

[ 15. February 2010, 21:35: Message edited by: Think² ]

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The Scrumpmeister
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The structure is definitely based on western forms but some of the terms and phrasing of the texts that are peculiar to the LCC(I) liturgy do have a Byzantine feel. Some phrases, such as "Lover of Mankind" (from the Greek, describing God as philanthropos) are taken directly from Byzantium.

All in all, it seems to me to be a minor influence rather than a major basis.

I'll say, too, that what they have presented as the Chrysostom Liturgy that they have supplied is a heavily abbreviated shadow of the Chrysostom Liturgy. We wouldn't dream of touching it.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Secondly, after the words of 'consecration or transubstantiation' it says this:

quote:
After some moments of silent adoration, the following verse shall be sung very softly, all devoutly kneeling:

All Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.

Now, I think thats so nice and it would be nice to do say at Corpus Christi, but not at every Mass - even at weekdays?
That's the first verse of Adoro, te devote (better known to most English speakers as "Humbly I adore thee"). It seems like a way of inserting a little Eucharistic devotion into the administration of Communion.

Most annoying to me is the fuzzy new-agery that creeps around the edges of this ordo. Though I have to say I was looking for the part where the dead are offered the sacrament, and I couldn't find it!

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Eddy
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Fr Weber says

quote:
Most annoying to me is the fuzzy new-agery that creeps around the edges of this ordo.
Please can you give an example of this, Father? I thought there mass seemed unusually close to the West.

Cyprian thanks for that from your knowledge. I thought it seemed very similar to our Mass and so wondered if it was really Orthodox in origin. Its strange they should make that claim.

The singing after a pause in the prayer of consecration I think could be quite moving, I've not come across it but can imagine it. I have to say for me its a bit more appealing than 'Chjrist has died...' being shouted out (as it sometimes is). But again I'd not like it at every Mass.

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dj_ordinaire
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There was a thread on this a while back - I will try and dig it out later!

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Eddy
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Yes djo I remeber reading something, but it is hard to dig stuff out here, I find.

The addition to the Eucharistic Prayer isn't something entirely new to me. I went to Mass in a church round Christmas time and as the Mystery of Faith they sang 'O come let us adore him' three times.

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Yes djo I remeber reading something, but it is hard to dig stuff out here, I find.

The addition to the Eucharistic Prayer isn't something entirely new to me. I went to Mass in a church round Christmas time and as the Mystery of Faith they sang 'O come let us adore him' three times.

It's quite a common thing in the Catholic Church to do at Christmas... it's not totally in keeping with what Rome says but we're not in Rome so... [Biased]


Max.

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Thurible
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"Word of the Father, living on this altar, o come let us adore him..." is how it went at our church in Christmastide.

Thurible

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
"Word of the Father, living on this altar, o come let us adore him..." is how it went at our church in Christmastide.

Thurible

We had:

"O Come Let us adore him (x3)
For he alone is worthy (x3)
We'll give him all the glory (x3)"

Lengthy but... it was Christmas [Big Grin]

I have no idea what I'm going to do at Grizzly Martyrs this year, it's a very different sort of parish.


Max.

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leo
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Sorry, but it is bonkers and typical of those schismatics who founded their own churches - the do the basic English Missal rite and add their own private devotions (like singing Adeste fidelis) and then expect everyone to like their own tastes.

Also, of course, it is old-fashioned - the and thou etc.

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Extol
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Sorry, but it is bonkers and typical of those schismatics who founded their own churches -

I know, Leo! I mean, they trace their apostolic succession from Rome, but they broke from Rome! And their liturgical texts are based on the old Missale Romanum, but with radical changes to the Canon! And they use Tudor English! What sort of lunatics would do such a thing?
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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
I know, Leo! I mean, they trace their apostolic succession from Rome, but they broke from Rome! And their liturgical texts are based on the old Missale Romanum, but with radical changes to the Canon! And they use Tudor English! What sort of lunatics would do such a thing?

*snort* [Killing me]

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
"Word of the Father, living on this altar, o come let us adore him..." is how it went at our church in Christmastide.

Thurible

We had:

"O Come Let us adore him (x3)
For he alone is worthy (x3)
We'll give him all the glory (x3)"

Lengthy but... it was Christmas [Big Grin]

I have no idea what I'm going to do at Grizzly Martyrs this year, it's a very different sort of parish.


Max.

I have heard something similar sung at Benediction at Walsingham - not all the time, but on occasions.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Sorry, but it is bonkers and typical of those schismatics who founded their own churches -

I know, Leo! I mean, they trace their apostolic succession from Rome, but they broke from Rome! And their liturgical texts are based on the old Missale Romanum, but with radical changes to the Canon! And they use Tudor English! What sort of lunatics would do such a thing?
Okay, that's hilarious!

I'm also not at all sure that the LCC can be classed as 'schismatics' in quite that way. They are more an independent quasi-Masonic organisation I think rather than a group who split from Rome or Canterbury or somewhere over any particular 'issue'.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Sorry, but it is bonkers and typical of those schismatics who founded their own churches -

I know, Leo! I mean, they trace their apostolic succession from Rome, but they broke from Rome! And their liturgical texts are based on the old Missale Romanum, but with radical changes to the Canon! And they use Tudor English! What sort of lunatics would do such a thing?
The 'sort of lunatics' who espouse heterodox doctrines, i.e. they face the rising sun to pray, they are dualists who believe that the body is less important than the soul, who dabble in theosophy etc.
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Extol
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
What sort of lunatics would do such a thing?

The 'sort of lunatics' who espouse heterodox doctrines
The nerve!
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Angloid
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Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

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Manipled Mutineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

Given the notoriously fissile nature of such churches, we may very well be talking about both...

Pace DJ_O above, both wings of the LCC seem to position themselves very much as inheritors of the Old Catholic tradition.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

Wrong way round, sorry. But they are clearly different organisations, having in common only appallingly-designed websites and the same sort of theology.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

Liz Stuart is a bishop in the 'Open Episcopal church'. They have a loony rite too called 'The Matthew'.

The church this thread is talking about was started by Charles Leadbetter, a friend of the theosophist Annie Beasant. He was also a freemason. He was required to be rebaptised before being ordained by some episcope vagantes - so they are not a mainline church, a mark of which is the recognition of each other's baptisms. He did some work in investigasting his 'past life' - reincarnation? He also believed in astral bodies. In reaction to Calvinism's doctrine of total depravity, they seem not to believe in original sin.

Leadbetter was accused of pederasty. His defence was that he was talking to boys about masturbation as being harmless and sinless - though today, such talk would be regarded as 'grooming'. This scandal made Beassant glad when he moved to Australia, out of harm's way. There, he earned his living as a clairvoyant.

Perhaps Laetere will feel moved to start a thread on comparative liturgical practices within necromancy and Tarot?

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The Scrumpmeister
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They both have the same origins. They split in the 1940s over whether theosophy should be compulsory. The group that became the LCCI is the group that felt it was not in keeping with the liberal aspect of the group's ethos.

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leo
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Yes, that sounds right because they both have origins in this 'Matthew' person. The Open Episcopals are theologically more orthodox though morally more heterodox.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

Liz Stuart is a bishop in the 'Open Episcopal church'. They have a loony rite too called 'The Matthew'.

According to the second link in my post she is 'Regionary bishop for the UK' (why not 'regional'?) in the 'Liberal Catholic Church International'.

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leo
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Well, I know someone whom she ordained - they hired the Crematorium on a Sunday afternoon.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

Liz Stuart is a bishop in the 'Open Episcopal church'. They have a loony rite too called 'The Matthew'.

According to the second link in my post she is 'Regionary bishop for the UK' (why not 'regional'?) in the 'Liberal Catholic Church International'.
You're correct, Angloid. They had no local bishop so the UK was administered by their bishop Dean Bekken, but he left them a few years back to form yet another group. At the time, they had one priest in the UK, a Fr Christopher Falconer, somewhere in or near London. There's no sign of him now on the LCCI website. Professor Stuart is now their bishop for the UK.

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Extol
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Liz Stuart is a bishop in the 'Open Episcopal church'. They have a loony rite too called 'The Matthew'.

Do you mean this Missal edited by ++Arnold Harris Matthew? It seems fairly benign as Old Catholic rites go. I've seen parts of it used for ordination to minor orders by an Old Catholic bishop in Philadelphia, and the rites were slightly less "loony" than much of what is on offer in local conventicles these days.
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The Scrumpmeister
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'Mathew' rather than 'Matthew'.

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Manipled Mutineer
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Elizabeth Stuart's Wikipedia article gives her as having been consecrated a bishop in the Open Episcopal Church but having been made "Archbishop of the Province of Great Britain and Ireland" of the LCCI in 2006. This article gives a little more background. A willingness to change denominations fairly readily seems to be a characteristic of the independent sacramental movement. This site gives a slightly garbled but overall probably fairly accurate summary of the links between Old Catholicism, Liberal Catholicism, the LCC and LCCI, Open Episcopal Church and the plethora of others out there.

[ 23. September 2009, 20:02: Message edited by: Manipled Mutineer ]

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, I know someone whom she ordained - they hired the Crematorium on a Sunday afternoon.

Must have been a short ministry! [Snigger]

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Eddy
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes, that sounds right because they both have origins in this 'Matthew' person. The Open Episcopals are theologically more orthodox though morally more heterodox.

Thanksa for all this info Leo, you seem to know a lot about all this, I did not think you'd be very interested, but it is good to see you contributing so much.

Now you say:

quote:
The 'sort of lunatics' who espouse heterodox doctrines, i.e. they face the rising sun to pray,
Rather like the lunatic C of E MOTR folk that face East to say the creed, lol. And of course the whole of Islam who face in a set direction to pray. Lunatics the lot of them!!

Actually its interesting that the LCC custom of singing in the Eucharistic prayer a popular chorus or verse seems to have later appeared in other western rites.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

Given the notoriously fissile nature of such churches, we may very well be talking about both...

Pace DJ_O above, both wings of the LCC seem to position themselves very much as inheritors of the Old Catholic tradition.

Certainly that's the case these days, but they originally grew out of Leadbeater's Liberal Catholic organization; basically Anglo-Catholicism with a healthy (?) dollop of Theosophy. As the years have gone on, they have been downplaying the Annie Besant; it reminds me of what happened with the Holy Order of MANS, which (IIRC) wound up converting to Orthodoxy.

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Liz Stuart is a bishop in the 'Open Episcopal church'. They have a loony rite too called 'The Matthew'.

Do you mean this Missal edited by ++Arnold Harris Matthew? It seems fairly benign as Old Catholic rites go. I've seen parts of it used for ordination to minor orders by an Old Catholic bishop in Philadelphia, and the rites were slightly less "loony" than much of what is on offer in local conventicles these days.
That looks like it. Someone I know, who was ordained by Liz Stewart, says that they use a modern rite most of the time but use 'The Matthew' on festivals.

There is a good (though biased) description of Liz Sturart's consecration at http://www.trushare.com/96may03/MY03SMOK.htm

She needed a hairdrier after the anointing and muslims received communion.

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Eddy
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quote:
She needed a hairdrier after the anointing and muslims received communion.
Are you pleased at these two happenings, leo, or disgusted? [Smile]
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northender
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. May one who spent 40 years in the Liberal Catholic Church
correct some misconceptions that have appeared in this thread?

There is the original LCC with Bishop Wedgwood as first Presiding Bishop, and there have been some groups who have left. The reasons for their leaving are of little import now as they all seem to accept ordination of women, which the original LCC rejects.

The online liturgy is from one of those other groups and has some peculiarities of its own. I can only comment on the authorised Liturgy of the original LCC. That was a strange reference to Eastern origins. The Preface to the first edition of The Liturgy reads: The movement from which the LCC originated used the Roman liturgy, but the complete reorganisation of the movement upon its present basis of the widest freedom involved a correspondingly drastic revision of the liturgy. The Roman liturgy was chosen as the basis for that revision....we were disappointed to find the Greek liturgy quite unsuitable for use in our work of revision.

There are two forms of "The Celebration of the Holy Eucharist commonly called the Mass", one being a shorter version of the other with some material of its own.

The Asperges is used at every celebration.

There is no need for prayers of the faithful as
secular authority, the parish, wider church, Presiding and local bishops, the sick and special needs, the departed, are all mentioned in The Canon.

"Thee we adore" and "O come all ye faithful" are sung after the consecration. I understand the reason for this, but it has always seemed strange to me to sing the Adeste all year round, even if a different tune is used outside of Christmas and Epiphany seasons.

The ceremonial is the same everywhere, the Church "asks of its members not the profession of a common belief but their willingness to worship corporately through a common ritual". (Statement of Principles). As part of thir Oath of Canonical Obedience, clergy give their agreement to that Statement of Principles and a Summary of Doctrine. These are not binding on the laity.

With reference to its Old Catholic origins. the Statement says "it does so to indicate the source of its orders and its organic unity with the historical church", and "the LCC has carefully preserved this succession of orders".

The founding bishops were Theosophists, there are probably still a majority of members of that persuasion. I do not know, and never enquired when I was a priest. I was never a member of the TS, never asked to join, never accepted its peculiar teachings. The books of Bishop Leadbeater were required reading for the LC Institute of Studies. Some treat them as Gospel. I thought them fanciful and said so tactfully. Respect for the opinions of others is a hallmark of Liberal Catholicism. The only reference to (small "t") theosophy in The Statement is to the dictionary definition of experiential religion, and the basic unity of all faiths.

(sometime) Fr Laurence

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Extol
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Thanks very much for that very interesting short history, Fr. Laurence. So, given your skepticism toward Theosophy, did your worship practices tend more in a conservative Old Catholic manner--perhaps the ++Mathew missal? Was that accepted by your colleagues?
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
quote:
She needed a hairdrier after the anointing and muslims received communion.
Are you pleased at these two happenings, leo, or disgusted? [Smile]
Amused by the former, slightly pleased about the latter while also thinking that it is heretical/taking inclusiveness too far. Mainly, however, I highlighted these to encourage people to read the article in full.

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Eddy
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quote:
Originally posted by northender:


There are two forms of "The Celebration of the Holy Eucharist commonly called the Mass", one being a shorter version of the other with some material of its own.

The Asperges is used at every celebration.

There is no need for prayers of the faithful as
secular authority, the parish, wider church, Presiding and local bishops, the sick and special needs, the departed, are all mentioned in The Canon.

"Thee we adore" and "O come all ye faithful" are sung after the consecration....I understand the reason for this, but it has always seemed strange to me to sing the Adeste all year round, even if a different tune is used outside of Christmas and Epiphany seasons.

The ceremonial is the same everywhere, the Church "asks of its members not the profession of a common belief but their willingness to worship corporately through a common ritual". ...

(sometime) Fr Laurence

Oh, Fr Laurence (that was) thank you for a very helpful post. Its fantastic here when we get guys like you from different churches who can explain.

As a matter of interest what other tunes did u use for Adeste Fidelis?

Now you wrote:
"asks of its members not the profession of a common belief but their willingness to worship corporately through a common ritual".

I think thats such a good principle.

You say you belonged to the original Liberal Catholic Church group - can you point to there online presence? Where can one go to experience there liturgy today?

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northender
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for Brian M-- there is strict conformity to the authorised Liturgy and ceremonial. You do not get to pick and choose.

for Laetare--
try
http://liberalcatholic.tripod.com

Your nearest church should be All Saints, Putney.

The Adeste tune was by Dr Bruce Gordon Kingsley way back in the thirties. I do not know if it has been published apart from the authorised "Musical Supplement to the Liturgy".

Laurence Fr

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Sir Pellinore
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Many thanks for your wise, hilariously witty and thoroughly insightful posts, northender/(sometime) Father Laurence. [Smile]

I remember, in the 1980s and 90s, there was a Co-Masonic temple near Central Station in Sydney. I believe that also had associations with Theosophy.

The influence of Theosophy in Australia in the 1920s and 30s is absolutely fascinating. Definitely our 'alternative pre-Nimbin' side. [Big Grin]

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northender
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Co-Masonry is a whole other kettle of nutmeat, not appropriate to this forum. Suffice to say that HQ in Paris always remained in the tradition of Grand Orient atheistic masonry. Annie Besant carried it to the English speaking world and a lot of theosophists joined.

The original St Albans Liberal Catholic Pro-Cathedral and the Co-M temple site in Sydney were once the Wesleyan Church and its hall. Church bought one, lodge the other. When St Albans was demolished in the 60s a wall fell on the back part of the temple building. It was rebuilt but they later sold and moved to the suburbs. A new St Albans was opened in 1976 in East Sydney, it has recently closed, there being no priest to serve it. The church in the northern suburb of Gordon is currently served by one frail priest in his eighties.

Laurence Fr

For a great read/laugh see "Beyond Belief - Theosophy in Australia 1879-1939" by Jill Roe, NSWU Press, Sydney 1986.

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Eddy
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Thanks for the info Fr Laurence, but that website you gave only gives US churches. Is there one for the LCC churches of the UK please?

Mention has been made about Co-Masonry. I don't know what that is.

Is the ritual of the Liberal Catholic Church related to Freemasons then?
If so I'd be a bit doubtful about it. Anyone help on this one.

No doubt the good Fr Laurence if he is around can.

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northender
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Last word on co-masonry, not being appropriate for this forum. But it is masonry that admits both men and women. There has always been a certain amount of church members who also were co-masons. Masonic influence on the Liturgy? Hardly. Except that masonry in its English form uses the Christian bible, therefore some familiar texts are common to both. I recall at a funeral a Mason commenting on words he knew from his ritual, but that just indicates the common Old Testament was used.

That US website I recall was a sort of generic one used by all provinces. I cannot find the UK one. The London church of All Saints in on Upper Richmond Road, Putney.

That must about play out this thread.

Laurence Fr

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Curiosity killed ...

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I blinked at that address trying to remember a church there and found this link with a photograph of the building.

[edited to add a question, else Doublethink will slap my wrists for not adding to the conversation.]

Is it usual for these Liberal Catholic Churches to meet in secular buildings? I would have thought there were enough redundant church buildings around - having heard how many churches, both Church of England and other denominations had gone out of commission of the past few years at a talk last week.

[ 27. September 2009, 07:13: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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Margaret

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The LCC in Bristol used to meet in a chapel in the basement of the big Victorian house in Clifton owned by the Theosophical Society, and an LCC bishop lived in a flat on the top floor. About fifteen years ago - I'm rather hazy on the chronology as it happened after I'd left Bristol - the bishop and the Bristol TS committee fell out, and he eventually moved (and left the LCC, devised his own rite, which apparently was based on early Syriac sources but unitarian in theology, and started ordaining women). I don't know whether there's a congregation still meeting there - it would be interesting to know!
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leo
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I am tempted to find out since that place is ten minutes walk from here.

I know the bishop concerned - he died about three years ago and was a very learned, if somewhat eccentric chap. (When he showed me round, he stubbed out his fag in a holy water stoup upon entry._

[ 27. September 2009, 16:22: Message edited by: leo ]

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leo
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I have just googled it - it seems to have moved to Easton, the poor end of the city. That doesn't mean, of course, that there isn't a splinter group still in basement of the Theosophists.

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

Is it usual for these Liberal Catholic Churches to meet in secular buildings? I would have thought there were enough redundant church buildings around - having heard how many churches, both Church of England and other denominations had gone out of commission of the past few years at a talk last week.

The Charity Commisioners are quite strict about this, buildings owned by charities which are sold have to go to the highest bidder. There is some leeway if there is a covenant on the building (Many Methodist church have a covenant* on the building that states alcohol may not be consumed on the premises, so they then cannot be sold directly for a brewery to turn into a pub).

It often means that buildings cannot be sold to another church as the commercial price is higher than what the other church can pay.

The Church of England is excepted from these rules.

Jengie

*Most properties in England have covenants as part of their title deeds. For instance mine prohibits me playing a keyboard in my flat although all other musical instruments are allowed!!

[ 27. September 2009, 17:44: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

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Bishops Finger
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The covenant on my first house precluded me from burning lime or brewing alcohol on the premises, and from using a steam road locomotive (and also, IIRC, from holding religious meetings)!

All of which things, of course, I then had a fervent desire to do.........

As far as the Liberal Catholic Church(es) is/are concerned, I suspect that the individual congregations are probably too small to be able to afford (or need) a redundant C of E church.

Ian J.

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Eddy
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I think Bishop's Finger has a good point there.

Here is a photo of the Bournemouth Liberal Catholic Church.

It seems to be an addition to a house. I cant see much full liturgy happening in that space - but mind you I'm sure some shipmates can tell stories liturgies in front rooms with lots of clergy / acolytes!

What puzzles me is I cannt find, and no one has pointed to, the Lib Cath Church website with churches / HQ etc in the UK.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:

What puzzles me is I cannt find, and no one has pointed to, the Lib Cath Church website with churches / HQ etc in the UK.

Try this one.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
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