|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Trouble at Mars Hill
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Mark Driscoll, who has been the subject of a Hell thread or two in the past, has been removed from the network of churches he founded and invited to resign his leadership of Mars Hill church.
I wonder how this will go down with former evangelical fans? (And plead for non-libellious answers!)
[ 08. January 2015, 14:36: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
Not a major development IMO. Discoll & Acts 29 have been at arms-length since 2012, when Matt Chandler took over as president.
Driscoll's power base is Mars Hill, which he's run as his fiefdom since a 2007 purge of dissenting elders, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Plenty evangelicals want nothing to do with Driscoll, but so long as reformed heavy-hitters like John Piper stay onside, he's secure.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
To use Driscoll as a measure for evangelicals is like using Peter Akinola as a measure for anglicans. He may have a large following, but he is far from being representative.
My prayer is that the church and those who comprise it find all the help they need and that the whole affair doesn't leave a permanent scar.
--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
Driscoll's not representative of evangelicals, but he's not marginal, either, and is certainly representative of neo-Reformed Calvinists.
Evangelicals keep him in the tent, invite him to their ubiquitous conferences, and so on. If evangelicalism doesn't want to be associated with him, it shouldn't associate with him.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
|
Posted
Are there any quintessential Evangelical books on sex in marriage out there?
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
Are there any quintessential Evangelical books on sex in marriage out there?
Besides Driskoll's misogynistic slop, you mean?
A bit old (but the mechanics are probably the same) but The Gift of Sex isn't bad.
But if you're looking for more humorous material, the options are endless.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
To use Driscoll as a measure for evangelicals is like using Peter Akinola as a measure for anglicans. He may have a large following, but he is far from being representative.
From the article: quote:
Driscoll appeared to be moving toward status as one of America’s leading evangelicals, and was subject of a New York Times Magazine profile in 2009.
He now appears to be in extreme disfavor with fellow evangelicals.
I agree with Byron here. Of course there are plenty of evangelicals that don't agree with him, but he has had plenty of support from people seen (in non-conformist evangelical circles anyway) as mainstream.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
Are there any quintessential Evangelical books on sex in marriage out there?
I imagine it's easy to find outrageous ones, but I expect that what one group of evangelicals regards as quintessential will be regarded by others as misrepresenting their views. I think mutual exclusivity compounds the problem of identification.
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Are we supposed to have heard of this man?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
He now appears to be in extreme disfavor with fellow evangelicals.
I agree with Byron here. Of course there are plenty of evangelicals that don't agree with him, but he has had plenty of support from people seen (in non-conformist evangelical circles anyway) as mainstream.
I'd kind of agree - though another way of describing it is that he has plenty of support from people who are mainstream for those evangelicals who are influenced by people across the pond.
The problem of course is that any movement that puts personalities to the forefront is prone to this kind of thing. I often feel the conservative evangelicals approach has sometimes been to pat themselves on the back and say 'God I thank you i'm not like other people'.
It has amused me in the past that the neo-Reformed who love to speak about 'functional idolatry' then describe themselves on their blob sidelines as 'Husband, Father, Pastor'
[ 09. August 2014, 07:54: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The problem of course is that any movement that puts personalities to the forefront is prone to this kind of thing.
Definitely. The cult of personality is a horrible thing, and ISTM complete anathema to the way of Christ. Putting so much emphasis and investing so much in one person is just a recipe for disaster; it's almost always too much for one person to bear.
I'm not massively up to speed with the goings-on at Mars Hill (or Acts 29 for that matter) but I was already aware of some of the criticism that the links in Eutychus' thread starter mention. Some of the accusations of bullying and abuse of power have really alarmed me. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Some of the accusations of bullying and abuse of power have really alarmed me.
That's what stuck out to me there most, that they were making former staff members sign contracts agreeing to forgo their pensions if they or their spouses made any negative comments about Mars Hill for several years after leaving. These weren't limited to comments about their employment, which is standard, but anything even a negative view about their experiences as church members!
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well he's on Wikipedia, whose criteria for keeping pages of living persons are pretty strict.
Hmmm ... I can think of one eponymous former shippie who has a high profile, but perhaps I digress.
To be honest I haven't heard of Driscoll, except shipboard vaguely, and Mars Hill only in the context of Rob Bell, who I suspect has long since been expelled. I did drive past Mars Hill in LA once, though, when I was trying to find a random Piskie Church.
What I would like to know are what doctrinal issues so easily produce division in evangelical congoes these days. In my day it was all pre-mid, post-mid and mid-mid speculation.
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
To use Driscoll as a measure for evangelicals is like using Peter Akinola as a measure for anglicans. He may have a large following, but he is far from being representative.
From the article: quote:
Driscoll appeared to be moving toward status as one of America’s leading evangelicals, and was subject of a New York Times Magazine profile in 2009.
He now appears to be in extreme disfavor with fellow evangelicals.
I agree with Byron here. Of course there are plenty of evangelicals that don't agree with him, but he has had plenty of support from people seen (in non-conformist evangelical circles anyway) as mainstream.
I don't know about the UK, but here in the US it's been hard to find ANY evangelical willing to stand up for the guy for a very long time. Even his large congregation seems a bit like niche marketing-- since precisely no on in the evangelical world is offering the sort of misogynistic, controlling schtick he favors, the fact that he has 5000 followers seems to indicate that there are about 5000 twisted evangelicals in the US who are drawn to this swill, which, given that estimates put the number of American evangelicals (depending on how defined) somewhere around 80 or 90 million, is not that significant.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To be honest I haven't heard of Driscoll, except shipboard vaguely, and Mars Hill only in the context of Rob Bell, who I suspect has long since been expelled. I did drive past Mars Hill in LA once, though, when I was trying to find a random Piskie Church.
There are two large evangelical churches with celebrity pastors named Mars Hill in the US, but any similarity or connection between the two ends there. Rob Bell founded the Mars Hill church in Michigan and was pastor there until just a year or two ago. He was not expelled but left to "pursue other projects" (speaking and writing engagements, one assumes).
Driskoll's Mars Hill is in Washington state.
I live in L.A. but had never heard of a Mars Hill L.A. I'm guessing it's part of the Acts 29 network, but it could also be an offshoot of the Bell version.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well he's on Wikipedia, whose criteria for keeping pages of living persons are pretty strict.
Hmmm ... I can think of one eponymous former shippie who has a high profile, but perhaps I digress.
To be honest I haven't heard of Driscoll, except shipboard vaguely, and Mars Hill only in the context of Rob Bell, who I suspect has long since been expelled. I did drive past Mars Hill in LA once, though, when I was trying to find a random Piskie Church.
What I would like to know are what doctrinal issues so easily produce division in evangelical congoes these days. In my day it was all pre-mid, post-mid and mid-mid speculation.
In 2008, Sydney Anglicans (via Youthworks and KCC)I think but I could be wrong on tis) paid Mark Driscoll to come to Sydney, he addressed the Anglican Bishops of Sydney and made some public appearances to "the faithful".. There were some rather lukewarm reviews of the whole thing and a little critique from official channels and it all went very, very quiet, thank goodness. So even for SydneyAnglicans his weird, sex-obsesssed, potty-mouthed "preaching' was too much.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well he's on Wikipedia, whose criteria for keeping pages of living persons are pretty strict.
It's not that strict... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
The whole thing boils down to an ongoing argument about church government. The solution, I think, is bishops or apostles. Pick your own terminology.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The whole thing boils down to an ongoing argument about church government.
It really doesn't. Unless you mean that he should have had some oversight (he probably would put his role down as 'apostle' especially given his comments in the past about 'kingly anointings) in which case I agree.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The whole thing boils down to an ongoing argument about church government. The solution, I think, is bishops or apostles. Pick your own terminology.
But Driscoll could easily be thought of as an apostle - he has played a key role in establishing many new church congregations, notably in areas like Seattle where the gospel of Jesus hasn't (so I gather) been given an enthusiastic welcome.
I'd suggest the issue is indeed related, in part, to issues of church government and structure; but more around the fact that Driscoll simply had (was allowed to take... was given...) far too much power. Once that much power is vested in a single person, a great deal of damage can be done if that person drifts away from Christ.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The whole thing boils down to an ongoing argument about church government. The solution, I think, is bishops or apostles. Pick your own terminology.
But Driscoll could easily be thought of as an apostle - he has played a key role in establishing many new church congregations, notably in areas like Seattle where the gospel of Jesus hasn't (so I gather) been given an enthusiastic welcome.
I'd suggest the issue is indeed related, in part, to issues of church government and structure; but more around the fact that Driscoll simply had (was allowed to take... was given...) far too much power. Once that much power is vested in a single person, a great deal of damage can be done if that person drifts away from Christ.
Precisely. When it's functioning properly one role of episcopal government (and/or 'trans-local apostolic ministry) is to prevent local pluralities of elders from lording it over the flock by giving them fatherly encouragement, godly discipline and genuine accountability.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
Has anyone managed to find out what Driscoll earns ? I tried emailing them but couldn't get an answer - they only publish the combined salaries figure.
Not good enough and not at all transparent.
Would I trust Driscoll ? NO....
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The whole thing boils down to an ongoing argument about church government. The solution, I think, is bishops or apostles. Pick your own terminology.
But Driscoll could easily be thought of as an apostle - he has played a key role in establishing many new church congregations, notably in areas like Seattle where the gospel of Jesus hasn't (so I gather) been given an enthusiastic welcome.
I'd suggest the issue is indeed related, in part, to issues of church government and structure; but more around the fact that Driscoll simply had (was allowed to take... was given...) far too much power. Once that much power is vested in a single person, a great deal of damage can be done if that person drifts away from Christ.
Precisely. When it's functioning properly one role of episcopal government (and/or 'trans-local apostolic ministry) is to prevent local pluralities of elders from lording it over the flock by giving them fatherly encouragement, godly discipline and genuine accountability.
That sentence is rather ambiguous. Sorry. Hopefully you get my point.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
Yes, I think I get you. And I agree. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Has anyone managed to find out what Driscoll earns ? I tried emailing them but couldn't get an answer - they only publish the combined salaries figure.
Not good enough and not at all transparent.
Would I trust Driscoll ? NO....
I don't know much about him, but having set up and run a number of successful churches and become a media figure he's probably quite rich, relatively speaking. His people are likely to be okay about that, because they've increased his wealth by joining his churches and buying his books, etc.
People who prefer their clergy to exist in a state of genteel poverty (when compared to the salaries of other professional folk) obviously wouldn't have anything to do with him, which is fair enough. But the jobs are somewhat different; the ministerial role in older and more centralised denominations is more about pastoral care, maintenance, and (in many cases) managing decline. This obviously isn't the sort of work that's likely to make anyone rich. Mark Driscoll's successors might find their salaries dropping as their role becomes more traditional and less entrepreneurial and risk-laden.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Has anyone managed to find out what Driscoll earns ? I tried emailing them but couldn't get an answer - they only publish the combined salaries figure.
Not good enough and not at all transparent.
Would I trust Driscoll ? NO....
I don't know much about him, but having set up and run a number of successful churches and become a media figure he's probably quite rich, relatively speaking. His people are likely to be okay about that, because they've increased his wealth by joining his churches and buying his books, etc.
People who prefer their clergy to exist in a state of genteel poverty (when compared to the salaries of other professional folk) obviously wouldn't have anything to do with him, which is fair enough. But the jobs are somewhat different; the ministerial role in older and more centralised denominations is more about pastoral care, maintenance, and (in many cases) managing decline. This obviously isn't the sort of work that's likely to make anyone rich. Mark Driscoll's successors might find their salaries dropping as their role becomes more traditional and less entrepreneurial and risk-laden.
I don't necessarily have a problem with him being materially rich, but the risk of corruption when one is "selling" the kingdom is huge and I don't believe Jesus gave his life in order for entrepreneurs to maximise their profits.
It's a slippery slope and one that I believe more than a few miracle healers and mega-church leaders fall into, and that is actually to sin against the Holy Spirit by making claims about God that are untrue, they know them to be entirely untrue and they do so in order to extract money from people. Now I'm not saying that Driscoll does this but with a profit incentive and no oversight the temptation is huge, ask Jesus he faced it in the wilderness.
"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Link
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Has anyone managed to find out what Driscoll earns ? I tried emailing them but couldn't get an answer - they only publish the combined salaries figure.
Not good enough and not at all transparent.
Would I trust Driscoll ? NO....
The lack of financial transparency is one of several issues that has been raised many times by his critics. iow, don't expect anything more than that omnibus figure. That doesn't mean he's doing anything shady, of course (although last year's use of church $$ to boost his NYT booklist ranking seems less-than-squeeky-clean) but it does go to the overall issue of lack of accountability. So far his pattern seems to be to set up a group of (all male, 'natch) elders to provide some illusion of accountability, then the minute they raise any questions, fire/ excommunicate them for lack of loyalty.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
by Cliffdweller
So far his pattern seems to be to set up a group of (all male, 'natch) elders to provide some illusion of accountability, then the minute they raise any questions, fire/ excommunicate them for lack of loyalty.
This behaviour is not Reformed. Elders were invented in Geneva precisely to control the clerics and as such should have their own power structures. Normative today is that they should have representation authority from within the congregation (other social ones have been tried). Clerics thus should have little say in their appointment. The correct approach for a cleric is to win them over and make them powerful allies
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
by Cliffdweller
So far his pattern seems to be to set up a group of (all male, 'natch) elders to provide some illusion of accountability, then the minute they raise any questions, fire/ excommunicate them for lack of loyalty.
This behaviour is not Reformed. Elders were invented in Geneva precisely to control the clerics and as such should have their own power structures. Normative today is that they should have representation authority from within the congregation (other social ones have been tried). Clerics thus should have little say in their appointment. The correct approach for a cleric is to win them over and make them powerful allies
Jengie
Absolutely. But then, Driskoll is not really Reformed-- he is Calvinist (theology) but his polity is, as you have just pointed out, not at all Reformed.
Conversely, as I age, I'm finding my theology less and less Calvinist, but my polity more and more Reformed. fwiw.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
|
Posted
I wonder if using church funds to unethically boost his book to the top of the NY Times best seller list might be among the list of grievances of the Acts 29 board?
This guy has been a future train wreck for a long time now. Lord have mercy. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
--------------------
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know much about him, but having set up and run a number of successful churches and become a media figure he's probably quite rich, relatively speaking. His people are likely to be okay about that, because they've increased his wealth by joining his churches and buying his books, etc.
People who prefer their clergy to exist in a state of genteel poverty (when compared to the salaries of other professional folk) obviously wouldn't have anything to do with him, which is fair enough. But the jobs are somewhat different; the ministerial role in older and more centralised denominations is more about pastoral care, maintenance, and (in many cases) managing decline. This obviously isn't the sort of work that's likely to make anyone rich. Mark Driscoll's successors might find their salaries dropping as their role becomes more traditional and less entrepreneurial and risk-laden.
I'm inclined to say that people shouldn't be profiteering from their ministry. To choose someone outside the traditional clergy, C. S. Lewis provides an admirable example of how to deal with the profits of religious books - he gave them all away.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I wonder if using church funds to unethically boost his book to the top of the NY Times best seller list might be among the list of grievances of the Acts 29 board?
It seems likely. Who can trust an individual who manipulates things to obtain financial advantage and gain worldly status? He's disqualified himself from holding any position of responsibility I the church.
He just kept trying to come across as a "good ole boy" and it hasn't worked - he tried to be something he isn't and it's failed and failed big time.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[...] [Driscoll] just kept trying to come across as a "good ole boy" and it hasn't worked - he tried to be something he isn't and it's failed and failed big time.
Is "failed" the right word? Sure, Driscoll's been caught in shady business practices, but he still lords it over the Mars Hill empire, which shows no sign of folding.
As folk have said elsewhere, the church's name points to Driscoll's real god. For many guys, his theological machismo has magnetic appeal. Ironically for someone who loathes atheism, he's the swaggering embodiment of Nietzsche's Overman. Want, take, have. Driscoll's Alpha through and through, an apex predator who could beatdown anyone who crosses him, and he knows it.
I loathe that might-makes-right line, but damn, does it ever work for him.
[ 10. August 2014, 07:26: Message edited by: Byron ]
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
I guess my problem with Driscoll becoming rich is if its on the back of demanding 10% tithing from his flock, and then refusing to disclose how much of it ends up in his pocket.
This would allow him to say that book proceeds go to the church but potentially take a lot of that back in salary without publishing it.
Some of these ministries can be very controlling - and end up rather cult like. If his members give because they believe he is 'God's anointed' and therefore beyond criticism, one day when they see through it they may loose their faith entirely.
For those of you who haven't seen it this is how Driscoll deals with descent ! He sounds like a narcissist to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kayRXtITyw
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I loathe that might-makes-right line, but damn, does it ever work for him.
Yes - but to a pretty small and increasingly restricted minority.
[code]
[ 10. August 2014, 13:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
This behaviour is not Reformed. Elders were invented in Geneva precisely to control the clerics and as such should have their own power structures.
Yes, it's kind of ironic that a lot of the Neo-Reformed trumpet their belief in 'total depravity' but then put one person in charge.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
I think we need to distinguish Neo-Reformed from New Reformed. Neo-Reformed I have seen applied to the group of Reformed theologians who took inspiration from Karl Barth post war including such as T.F.Torrance. This was in part a reaction to the liberalism within Reformed theology in the late nineteenth century. So in some respects conservative but it rests on the greatness of God and in many ways knows the limitation of itself as a system. It knows the system speaks poorly of God as that is part of the greatness of God that he cannot be captured in a man made system.
I would contrast this with the New-Calvinists, who are not really "New" but have got delighted in the rational theological system developed from the work of John Calvin and feel that it is a panacea for all theological points. The system then becomes a panacea for all theological difficulties and master it and you know everything. We have had them in every age it is just the refinement of Calvinist system that is different.
The second type I regard as worshipping an idol of theology of their own making because they have replace the central mystery of God with a theological system of human making. The first group is far more difficult to counteract.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
As folk have said elsewhere, the church's name points to Driscoll's real god. For many guys, his theological machismo has magnetic appeal. Ironically for someone who loathes atheism, he's the swaggering embodiment of Nietzsche's Overman. Want, take, have. Driscoll's Alpha through and through, an apex predator who could beatdown anyone who crosses him, and he knows it.
I loathe that might-makes-right line, but damn, does it ever work for him.
too true.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
I guess my problem with Driscoll becoming rich is if its on the back of demanding 10% tithing from his flock, and then refusing to disclose how much of it ends up in his pocket.
Perhaps he might argue that it's all right as long as only 90% does.
Going back to the question of apostles, aren't they restricted to the New Testament era? Surely nobody is entitled to claim to be one now? I'd be very suspicious of somebody who did?
Besides, there's no evidence that I know of that any of the first generation of Christian leaders ended up rich in worldly terms. Being taken across the Mediterranean under military guard and being shipwrecked aren't quite in the same league as having personal jets or country estates.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
I guess my problem with Driscoll becoming rich is if its on the back of demanding 10% tithing from his flock, and then refusing to disclose how much of it ends up in his pocket.
Perhaps he might argue that it's all right as long as only 90% does.
Going back to the question of apostles, aren't they restricted to the New Testament era? Surely nobody is entitled to claim to be one now? I'd be very suspicious of somebody who did?
Besides, there's no evidence that I know of that any of the first generation of Christian leaders ended up rich in worldly terms. Being taken across the Mediterranean under military guard and being shipwrecked aren't quite in the same league as having personal jets or country estates.
Far be it from me to defend Driskoll in his ilk, but just to answer these specific questions:
Many non-liturgical churches define "apostle" as "church planter". So Driskoll meets that definition of the term.
Similarly, Paul makes a strong argument for paying pastors & apostles a "living wage" of sorts, even while explaining why he himself eschewed that. The whole notion of "celebrity pastors" though, who could make millions of $$ (while their less famous brethren toil away at near poverty wages) is something that probably would have been unimaginable in the 1st c.
That being said, Driskoll's lack of transparency and accountability is w/o any NT warrant, and, as others noted, is often the root of some very unhealthy practices.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
[replying to Enoch]
Actually that is not the case in Reformed Tradition. The five fold ministry as in John Calvin is Apostle, Prophet, Minister, Doctor and Elder. However, the roles of Apostle and Prophet only arise in times of crisis, they are eschatological offices. John Calvin counted Martin Luther as an Apostle.
I would say Apostle and Prophet are offices that can only be bestowed by others, not ones you can claim for yourself. To a lesser extent that is true of regular offices as well.
Jengie
[ 10. August 2014, 15:28: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
[replying to Enoch]
Actually that is not the case in Reformed Tradition. The five fold ministry as in John Calvin is Apostle, Prophet, Minister, Doctor and Elder. However, the roles of Apostle and Prophet only arise in times of crisis, they are eschatological offices. John Calvin counted Martin Luther as an Apostle.
I would say Apostle and Prophet are offices that can only be bestowed by others, not ones you can claim for yourself. To a lesser extent that is true of regular offices as well.
Jengie
Yes. As has been noted, Driskoll seems to be (somewhat selectively) hyper-Calvinist in his theology, but entirely un-Reformed in his polity. This would be one such example-- Reformed theology always recognizes the role of the gathered community in "calling forth the gifts"-- we don't get to step forward in isolation and say "I have the gift of preaching/ prophesy/ teaching/ basket weaving"-- that's for the gathered community to say. One of the things I appreciate most about Reformed theology is that it takes the perils of power seriously, with appropriate levels of transparency and accountability. Driskoll would do well to attend to that aspect of Reformed tradition.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Many non-liturgical churches define "apostle" as "church planter". So Driskoll meets that definition of the term.
I don't know. I think that if the apostle Paul was still around he might well have said Driscoll met his definition of a "false apostle"...
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Many non-liturgical churches define "apostle" as "church planter". So Driskoll meets that definition of the term.
This is certainly what I mean by the term 'apostle', so I think they're absolutely needed in the 21st century (though hopefully less self-aggrandising and bullying than Driscoll!). Actually, I'd broaden out the term to mean anyone who starts new activities and enterprises with the aim of bringing about more of God's will on earth - so that could be new churches, but it could also be new community activities or social businesses.
That's what the first apostles actually did, after all. Sure, most of them were first-hand witnesses to Jesus' ministry on earth; but I think Paul's reference to many people being his 'co-workers' or 'fellow labourers', and the reference to apostles in Ephesians 4:11 alongside shepherds, teachers, evangelists and prophets, means we shouldn't hesitate to identify some people as apostles nowadays.
[EDIT - to agree with cliffdweller that all these gifts / roles should be identified and confirmed by others. Anyone going around declaring themselves as an apostle or whatever needs to be treated with caution, IMO.]
[ 10. August 2014, 15:39: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
[EDIT - to agree with cliffdweller that all these gifts / roles should be identified and confirmed by others. Anyone going around declaring themselves as an apostle or whatever needs to be treated with caution, IMO.]
Mandatory viewing: The Apostle.
Like many other monikers, too many people have latched onto a once noble term, added a business model, and monetised it. I know of people I would consider contemporary apostles, but they never termed themselves such and have been forgotten by most within a few years of their death - just left a whole load of churches that have survived more than a generation.
Surprised by the power of the Spirit by Jack Deere is a book I only pull off the shelves these days to make the following point on the Ship from time to time, but I think Jack is on the money here (p245) about the definite characteristics of an apostle:
quote:
First on the list is the suffering of an apostle. [...] Today there are those in the church who are claiming to be apostles, but they seem to want no part of apostolic suffering. They not only live lifestyles of lavish ease, but they accept and encourage an incredible deference that is paid to them by ordinary Christians... They effectively put themselves beyone the rebuke of fellow Christians, as though this were part of their apostolic calling
I'll leave you to do the comparisons.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
Absolutely, Eutychus. I've not seen the film or read the book you mentioned, but I agree with everything in your above post.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Interesting and rather sad letter from someone at the sharp end of Mars Hill...If true its pretty classic narcissist behavior.
http://ronwheelerjr.wordpress.com/2014/08/07/i-am-not-anonymous-2/
Well, it fits a couple of other things I've read... By the way, that post has been shared over 3,000 times on Facebook as I type this. That's a lot, right? The tide really is turning on how Driscoll is thought of, it seems.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
)
