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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The new Archbishop
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I may be completely wrong in this, but it seems to me that there has been very little discussion of the new ABofC, either on board Ship or in the media as a whole. There is a lot of interest in the new Pope (see the "White Smoke" thread) but even in "Anglicanism and the new Pope" there is a lot of discussion about Catholicism as a whole, some on Pope Francis, and hardly a mention of Archbishop Justin.
Does anyone have any thoughts about ++Justin? Hopes and fears based on his previous ministry or on what he has done since he took the helm? Or is he such a dull non-entity he's not worth talking about?
[ 18. June 2013, 13:36: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There was a fair bit of discussion here when his appointment was announced, but there hasn't been a great deal since he was enthroned, as it were.
It's early days.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Pilot Light
Apprentice
# 17549
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Posted
The local press in Warwickshire have been printing lots of articles about Justin Welby since his parish ministry was round here (Nuneaton and Southam). There seems to be a lot of affection for him in Coventry and Warwickshire.
Here's a link to an article (page 5) written by someone who worked with him - you'll get a flavour of what he's like in his ministry...
Magazine article
Hope that helps a little!
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Worse things happen at sea
Posts: 13 | From: Warwickshire | Registered: Feb 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
What the new Archbishop needs is someone to discover an ancient prophecy in which he plays a key role. If that happens, everyone will be all over him, as they are with the new Pope!
Barring that, he needs to do something ultra-PR-friendly. The new Pope washed the feet of a female Muslim prisoner on Maundy Thursday, which some people thought was rather daring....
BTW, the news about Justin Welby engaged my interest, because I went out of my way to see him when he came to Coventry Cathedral a few weeks ago, and I'm not even an Anglican. He spent the day leading prayers there. His photos do him justice, and he's well-spoken, as one would expect. In the little I saw of him, he didn't seem to have any obvious quirks, but neither did he ooze charisma. ABsofC don't have the same job description as popes, so perhaps it's natural that they have a different aura.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Before anyone gets into the hype does anyone remember this event from early in the time of Rowan Williams tenure. It made positive press then.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Re the OP. I hope that I am wrong but...
The new ABC strikes me as being a very capable manager as his background in business would suggest. ( Perhaps this is what the Anglican Church needs).
He did not come across as an inspiring preacher. One would have thought that a man of his capabilities would not have to be tied to his mss and he used the HTB "Jesus" mantra as expected given that background.
What the Christian Church needs is a prophet with passion and fire in his belly. Scholarly yes, but the two are not incompatible.
What is incompatible is the split in the world-wide Anglican communion which a prophet would only exacerbate. And that is a non-starter. So expect a blanc-mange tenure accompanied by all the right noises depending on the audience being addressed.
Hopeful but not expectant.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Huts
Apprentice
# 13017
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Posted
It might be a bit early to judge him yet.
He's only 'Just In' ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 37 | From: Down South - UK | Registered: Sep 2007
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
I'm still in two minds about Abp. Justin, I probably always will be.
One concern I have is that he seems to be trying to force through women bishops, already having his own female chaplain (the first ever) and women clergy in the House of Bishops - I expect the C of E will eventually have women bishops, but it is not good to trample all over the consciences of those who don't see things his way. In any case, it will lead to more people leaving the Church of England, which will in turn lead to the church starting to become more protestant, more liberal, and less catholic. Some may think that's a good thing of course.
We all know his views on gay marriage and gay ordination, but just lately he seems to be squirming and walking on a tightrope when it comes to these things. Perhaps with the pressures of the (left wing) media that's inevitable, but it's a shame he feels he cannot give clear teaching in this matter, yet he is perfectly clear where he stands with women bishops.
Anyway, characterwise I like the man, and I don't envy his task of trying to keep the Anglican Communion together.
I've heard a couple of his sermons, and I can't say I'm very impressed. Something about the way he words things just doesn't exactly have people on the edge of their seats does it?
Anyway, I wish him all the best, and God's blessing - One thing I do like about him is his humility and openness which comes out when he is interviewed.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
... What the Christian Church needs is a prophet with passion and fire in his belly. Scholarly yes, but the two are not incompatible. ...
Provided one means 'prophet' in its true sense, and not just 'controversial and outspoken', true, but would Archbishop of Canterbury be the right job to tie a true prophet into?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Hmph. First we have a defense of legalism as superseding the Spirit on the Pope thread (re washing the feet of the wrong sort of people) and now we have a defense of the stiff-necked from someone who jumped ship.
Women as bishops hasn't been a noticeable issue in other parts of the Communion for quite some time now, and I don't see any evidence that more people left as a result, just as I don't see hetero marriages falling by the wayside in Canada now that SSMs are allowed (7 years now)
If you are discontented, you will find an excuse to flounce. The only thing the rest of us would ask is that you don't actually do damage on the way out (a cheap shot on my part at the ACNA)
[ 29. March 2013, 20:28: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Yam-pk
Shipmate
# 12791
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I've heard a couple of his sermons, and I can't say I'm very impressed. Something about the way he words things just doesn't exactly have people on the edge of their seats does it?
Well, doesn't make him much different from the previous bloke then... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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sososlowly
Apprentice
# 17592
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Posted
So far the Holy Spirit has taken me pleasantly by surprise.
He may not be the most charismatic of men, but he seems to speak simply without dumbing down overly. +Rowan was a better and holier man than we deserved as our primate, but his very holy desire to do justice to every side of every facet of every argument made him easy pickings in the playground that passes for the media in the UK. Justin's ability to craft a sound bite may buy him the time and space to do some significant stuff relatively unmolested.
Justin's prayer pilgrimmage before his public ministry started does seem to me to be motivated genuinely by a desire to put prayer at the centre of everything. And if his archepiscopal ministry did nothing except to remind the church that, as Stephen Cottrell puts it, we should hit the gorund kneeling, it would be a mighty and propehetic contribution.
I wander what ecclesiology he will articulate. +Rowan's assumption that the church is already the perfected new humanity (I'm paraphrasing savagely but that's the gist of it) was wildly optimistic in the way that only true prophets can dare to be.
I suspect Justin will be more realistic. That might make him firmer and more managerial sometimes and, for me, that wouldn't be a bad thing. As someone who leads a team in business for a living but takes my faith seriously I'm pretty hacked off with "managerialism" being the whipping boy of ecclesiological discourse.
As others have said, it's early days. Let's keep praying for him. though.
[ 29. March 2013, 21:08: Message edited by: sososlowly ]
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
...Women as bishops hasn't been a noticeable issue in other parts of the Communion for quite some time now, and I don't see any evidence that more people left as a result...
[TEMPORARY TANGENT INTO DEAD HORSE TERRITORY]You are missing the point. On another thread we are discussing the issues surrounding unity/unification of the Anglicans with the wider Church, and there is a problem when the C of E sees itself as having the Authority to make such changes unilaterally, as if it was THE Church, which it isn't.
Usually, when individuals depart from a church, they don't fill out a form to explain their reasons - so how can we conclusively prove whether people have left over this issue or for some other reason?
Certainly, in many of the countries where they have women bishops, membership of the Anglican church is declining quite drastically.[/TEMPORARY TANGENT INTO DEAD HORSE TERRITORY]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Deputy Verger
Shipmate
# 15876
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Posted
Welcome aboard, sososlowly. Excellent first post. Couldn't say it better myself.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm still in two minds about Abp. Justin, I probably always will be.
One concern I have is that he seems to be trying to force through women bishops, already having his own female chaplain (the first ever) and women clergy in the House of Bishops - I expect the C of E will eventually have women bishops, but it is not good to trample all over the consciences of those who don't see things his way. In any case, it will lead to more people leaving the Church of England, which will in turn lead to the church starting to become more protestant, more liberal, and less catholic. Some may think that's a good thing of course.
We all know his views on gay marriage and gay ordination, but just lately he seems to be squirming and walking on a tightrope when it comes to these things. Perhaps with the pressures of the (left wing) media that's inevitable, but it's a shame he feels he cannot give clear teaching in this matter, yet he is perfectly clear where he stands with women bishops.
Anyway, characterwise I like the man, and I don't envy his task of trying to keep the Anglican Communion together.
I've heard a couple of his sermons, and I can't say I'm very impressed. Something about the way he words things just doesn't exactly have people on the edge of their seats does it?
Anyway, I wish him all the best, and God's blessing - One thing I do like about him is his humility and openness which comes out when he is interviewed.
I'm perplexed by the idea that things will be more Protestant but also more liberal. HTB isn't particularly liberal, and there are plenty of liberal Anglo-Catholics in the CoE.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm still in two minds about Abp. Justin, I probably always will be.
One concern I have is that he seems to be trying to force through women bishops, already having his own female chaplain (the first ever) and women clergy in the House of Bishops - I expect the C of E will eventually have women bishops, but it is not good to trample all over the consciences of those who don't see things his way. In any case, it will lead to more people leaving the Church of England, which will in turn lead to the church starting to become more protestant, more liberal, and less catholic. Some may think that's a good thing of course.
We all know his views on gay marriage and gay ordination, but just lately he seems to be squirming and walking on a tightrope when it comes to these things. Perhaps with the pressures of the (left wing) media that's inevitable, but it's a shame he feels he cannot give clear teaching in this matter, yet he is perfectly clear where he stands with women bishops.
Anyway, characterwise I like the man, and I don't envy his task of trying to keep the Anglican Communion together.
I've heard a couple of his sermons, and I can't say I'm very impressed. Something about the way he words things just doesn't exactly have people on the edge of their seats does it?
Anyway, I wish him all the best, and God's blessing - One thing I do like about him is his humility and openness which comes out when he is interviewed.
I'm perplexed by the idea that things will be more Protestant but also more liberal. HTB isn't particularly liberal, and there are plenty of liberal Anglo-Catholics in the CoE.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm perplexed by the idea that things will be more Protestant but also more liberal. HTB isn't particularly liberal, and there are plenty of liberal Anglo-Catholics in the CoE.
It's just about proportion - if catholics leave, there will be higher proportions of liberals and catholics.
I know I am asking to have my head bitten off here, but by "catholics" I meant FiF type Anglo-Catholics. Affirming-catholics, I would classify as liberal (they won't be going anywhere) - but YMMV.
I wasn't suggesting HTB are particularly liberal, but they are protestant (ie. very un-catholic).
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
As you were:
...if catholics leave, there will be higher proportions of liberals and protestants...
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Why are affirming catholics not counting as catholics? I'm not biting your head off, it's just that I've come across this point of view before and it just baffles me. Is conservatism an essential part of a catholic faith? If an AffCath priest and an FiF priest were to agree on all theological issues bar Dead Horses, why would the Dead Horses automatically make the AffCath priest not a 'real' catholic? It just seems like such an odd thing to define the term by - maybe it's just me, but I don't think the defining feature of even the RCC is their stance on Dead Horse issues.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Why are affirming catholics not counting as catholics?
I think Mark's claim is that FiF types are likely to swim the Tiber, whereas Aff-Cath will stay put. Other things being equal, this makes the C of E less Catholic, because some of the Catholics have gone to Rome.
This doesn't discount the Catholicity of Aff-Caths, it's just a statement that Aff-Cath is a smaller group of people than (Aff-Cath + FiF), and so unless the C of E loses a matching number of low-church evangelicals on headship grounds, the centre of mass (or should that be centre of Mass?) moves away from Catholicism.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
If that is the case, I understand, but I have come across others not counting affirming catholics as 'real' catholics (not on the Ship) so it is a view held by some.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
This doesn't discount the Catholicity of Aff-Caths, it's just a statement that Aff-Cath is a smaller group of people than (Aff-Cath + FiF), and so unless the C of E loses a matching number of low-church evangelicals on headship grounds, the centre of mass (or should that be centre of Mass?) moves away from Catholicism.
I mean, Mark came right out and said "Affirming-catholics, I would classify as liberal." So yes, it's discounting the Catholicity of Aff-Caths.
Most likely a few people will continue to drift away. My real question is whether, right now, the net flow is Canterbury -> Rome or vice versa (with all due respect, I think the anywhere -> Eastern Orthodox flow is pretty limited). In the United States at least, I know many many more ex-Catholics in the Episcopal Church than I do ex-Episcopalians in the Catholic Church.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Does anyone have any thoughts about ++Justin? Hopes and fears based on his previous ministry or on what he has done since he took the helm? Or is he such a dull non-entity he's not worth talking about?
I liked the theology of his Good Friday chat on radio.
He started with a bit of philosophy (always a good tick in my book):
quote:
As we all know well, where you stand determines what you see.
Then went on to describe his Easter theology as:
quote:
The rulers discovered that God is not held down by human failure and foolishness, even by human wickedness and injustice. They saw Jesus as a mere man, and loaded hatred and fear onto him.
They did not realise that the power of the love that God expressed in Him would swallow the hate and destroy it.
The women discovered that the love they knew was more than merely human. They saw Jesus as wonderful but defeated. The next few days would show that he was in fact utterly triumphant and far more than wonderful.
And a bit further down:
quote:
he death of Jesus is both a challenge and a promise of hope. The challenge is to show that same self-giving love for the sake of others. The promise is that nothing is beyond His reach and even despair can be healed.'
Seems like good Christus Victor theology. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
There's a lot of talk about Anglicans swimming the Tiber, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is steady two way traffic here. At nearly every confirmation service there is invariably at least one Roman Catholic being received into the Anglican Church. In my deanery, we even have two priests who were originally ordained in the RCC.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
We hear this "two way traffic" remark around here quite a lot. There is undoubtedly some traffic away from Rome but what evidence there is suggests that it is heavily outnumbered. The traffic may be steady but it is also pretty lopsided.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
We hear this "two way traffic" remark around here quite a lot. There is undoubtedly some traffic away from Rome but what evidence there is suggests that it is heavily outnumbered. The traffic may be steady but it is also pretty lopsided.
At the level of priests, perhaps, but that will have a lot to do with there not being many young Catholic priests in the developed world anyway. At the lay level, I think the balance is the other way.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
On the basis of what evidence do you make that assertion?
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
On the basis of what evidence do you make that assertion?
Anecdotal, mostly. I've never encountered, in person, an Anglican who has converted to the RCC or any who I knew were thinking of it. I have encountered a lot of former RC Anglicans. If you have data I'd be interested to see it. And it wasn't an assertion, it was an opinion. The word "I think" ought to have been a clue.
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
On the basis of what evidence do you make that assertion?
Anecdotal, mostly. I've never encountered, in person, an Anglican who has converted to the RCC or any who I knew were thinking of it. I have encountered a lot of former RC Anglicans. If you have data I'd be interested to see it. And it wasn't an assertion, it was an opinion. The word "I think" ought to have been a clue.
Last Easter in England and Wales just over 2000 ex-Anglicans were received into the Catholic Church, excluding those joining the Ordinariate. That figure has been pretty constant for the last ten years or so. I have no data for traffic in the opposite direction, in part because the data collected is different and in part because of the difficulty of collecting data when many ex-Catholics go through no formal process. Suffice it to say that our sister dioceses on Portsmouth and of Winchester estimate that the traffic is about 3 to 1 in our favour.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
An outsider's perspective. The less Anglo-Catholic the C of E appears to be, the bigger the jump for Catholics contemplating a move.
In the much more fidgety world of protestant nonconformism, folks who change churches are normally looking for a place which will feel familiar, but not so uncomfortably misfitting as where they are. That would seem to me to be a general preference.
Only the most naive expect to find perfection and are soon disappointed. There is some consumeristic shuffling, but IME that is not so in the majority of cases, and I certainly would not expect it to be so for a Catholic contemplating a "move out".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Why are affirming catholics not counting as catholics? I'm not biting your head off, it's just that I've come across this point of view before and it just baffles me. Is conservatism an essential part of a catholic faith?...
This little note sums it up from Paul Stead's blog - (note they are his words, not mine - so don't shoot the messenger):
quote:
What is Anglo-Catholicism?
P.S -A note about “High-Church” Anglicanism
There is an odd strand of Anglicanism which goes by the name of “Affirming Catholicism”, these Anglicans enjoy Catholic liturgy but cannot quite stomach Catholic doctrine. Unhappily and confusingly some Affirming Catholics call themselves “Anglo-Catholics”, and so there are women priests who will call themselves Anglo-Catholics. However Affirming Catholics are not Anglo-Catholics, they are liberals; Catholicity is more about doctrine than liturgy (though that is not to say that liturgy is unimportant); it is possible to still be Catholic whilst dancing along to a modern worship song in a big tent in the middle of the countryside. But no amount of incense can mask the stench of capitulation to liberal theology.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
The old 'Liberal Catholics are not Catholics' line is rather like 'Evangelicals who believe X are not Evangelicals'.
There have always been differences in terms of what Catholic means to different Anglo-Catholics - Liturgy? Spirituality? Theology? Identity? Hierarchy? As my senior selector said to me 'One day you will have to decide if you are an Anglican first or a Catholic first'.
The world Liberal also means little these days: See Roger Olsen's rather long blog post:
What is Theological Liberalism
From my perspective the marker of the term Catholic in Anglican circles would be a more Sacrificial understanding and practice of the Eucharist. A few years back I might have gone for the Real Presence, but that is too vague and broad. The marker of Liberal is a rejection of the supernatural action of God in an area that has been in general accepted.
Now by these definitions a lot of Protestantism and Evangelicalism is Liberal in (Anglo)Catholic eyes, because we embrace a particular understanding of the supernatural action of God in the offering of bread and wine that the majority of Protestant's reject.
As for Archbishops, Rowan was nuanced in his view of Eucharistic Sacrifice (see:
Here ) and Justin's view is probably fairly practical.
Justin however has recently spoken at a Catholic Charismatic conference, has a Catholic Spiritual director and clearly respects the tradition. Such things would have been unthinkable for even a High Church Archbishop not so long ago. Justin may be more Charismatic than the average punter in the pew, but he is also more Catholic.
If those streams of his spirituality are integrated then I suspect that he will have a Charismatic experience of offering the Eucharist - an experience denied by a more memorialist understanding more common in Charismatic circles.
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blog//twitter//
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sososlowly
Apprentice
# 17592
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Posted
We must be heading for some sort of Dead Horse with this stuff about whether Affirming Catholics are "real" catholics. But until the hosts step in, here goes:
I'm not sure the line that says, "Aff Cath is full of people who like insence but can't cope with Catholic doctrine" bears scrutiny, although like all good parody it has a grain of truth in it.
For me, and I suspect for a great many others who are comfortable with Affirming Catholocism's position on divisive topics like the ordination of women, I'm Catholic because catholicity is what God wills for his church.
Here I use catholic in the sense of broadly inclusive. For me, catholicity boils down to two things: First, a fidelity to the ecumenical creeds, so that differences over less primary doctrinal issues are interesting but not the end of the conversation. I would include among my list of non-primary issues complex scholastic debates about what happens at the eucharist; whether women can be ordained, and a great many others. Your list may be more restrictive.
Second, I take, as a bare minimum from the Gospel's accounts of Jesus' ministry the message that "there's a wideness in God's mercy". Jesus went out of his way to include, indeed to use most momentously, those on the outside of traditional structures.
I accept that, in lots of these debates, catolicity has become a barnacle-encrusted-rock of a concept about believing the right stuff about the length of a surplice, the shape of a chasuble and the necessity of having a penis in order to celebrate a valid mass. But it is a construct.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think that a lot of former Catholics who end up in Anglican or other Protestant churches often do so after a period in the wilderness or in a nominal position ... hence they'll slip under the radar.
I once belonged to a Baptist church where I reckon about a sixth of the congregation were former RCs ... mostly nominal or cradle-Catholics who had undergone an evangelical conversion whilst at university ... although there were some who'd crossed to evangelical-land from Catholicism at an older age.
Anglican or other Protestant converts to Roman Catholicism, I would submit, tend to be more visible as they have to apply for membership in a more formal way than is sometimes the case in Protestant churches and also because they are likely to be moving for reasons that catch the headlines as it were.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Last Easter in England and Wales just over 2000 ex-Anglicans were received into the Catholic Church, excluding those joining the Ordinariate. That figure has been pretty constant for the last ten years or so. I have no data for traffic in the opposite direction, in part because the data collected is different and in part because of the difficulty of collecting data when many ex-Catholics go through no formal process. Suffice it to say that our sister dioceses on Portsmouth and of Winchester estimate that the traffic is about 3 to 1 in our favour.
The numbers could hardly help to be otherwise, considering there are 2 to 4 times as many Anglicans as there are Roman Catholic in the United Kingdom.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
[QB] This little note sums it up from Paul Stead's blog - (note they are his words, not mine - so don't shoot the messenger):
When the messenger chooses the message they are going to convey, they are just as responsible for it as the original author. It's still wildly inaccurate, are you able to list those crucial areas of Catholic doctrine upon which Affirming Catholicism and Forward in Faith disagree, or does it just come back to gays and women again?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
I would suspect the ratio to be much higher than that - if you're talking about nominal Anglicans. If about practising ones then we're about equal.
There was a thread about this a couple of years ago but concentrating on things your side of the pond. I can't remember how it went.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I would suspect the ratio to be much higher than that - if you're talking about nominal Anglicans. If about practising ones then we're about equal.
There was a thread about this a couple of years ago but concentrating on things your side of the pond. I can't remember how it went.
The 4 times number is baptized members, the 2 times number is self identifying. The upshot being that the ratio of conversions could favor the Roman Catholic three to one for centuries, but the portion of Anglicans overall could grow all the same.
As luck would have it, both sects are looking at a pretty catastrophic collapse in the United Kingdom, and should probably look more at reaching out to the 50 percent of Britons that have no idea at all of a Church rather than playing this game.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
When the messenger chooses the message they are going to convey, they are just as responsible for it as the original author. It's still wildly inaccurate, are you able to list those crucial areas of Catholic doctrine upon which Affirming Catholicism and Forward in Faith disagree, or does it just come back to gays and women again?
There are plenty - let's start with the virgin birth shall we? I'm sure you can think of plenty more if you put your mind to it.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
With all due respect, I'm so glad that my catholicity is not determined by how Paul Stead, Mark Betts and their soul mates have taken upon themselves to define it.
[ 30. March 2013, 14:37: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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maryjones
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# 13523
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Posted
One feature of Anglicanism that seems to me highly likely to put people off Church is the continuing tendency of Lord Carey (last archbishop but one) to shoot his mouth off .
According to the BBC News, BBC News he is concerned that Christians are being persecuted. quote:
WAs he not warned? Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Perhaps he hasn't read that bit!
Posts: 75 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: Mar 2008
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sososlowly
Apprentice
# 17592
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Posted
quote:
One feature of Anglicanism that seems to me highly likely to put people off Church is the continuing tendency of Lord Carey (last archbishop but one) to shoot his mouth off
I'm finding being charitable about Lord Carey a particularly trying Tridium discipline. I can think of plenty of stuff I'd challenge the UK government about: we are 24 hours from some huge benfits and legal aid cuts taking effect.
I can't help thinking it's a pure ego trip on Lord Carey's part. +Justin would do well to get a statement out disowning it.
Posts: 20 | From: Chichester, West Sussex | Registered: Mar 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
When the messenger chooses the message they are going to convey, they are just as responsible for it as the original author. It's still wildly inaccurate, are you able to list those crucial areas of Catholic doctrine upon which Affirming Catholicism and Forward in Faith disagree, or does it just come back to gays and women again?
There are plenty - let's start with the virgin birth shall we? I'm sure you can think of plenty more if you put your mind to it.
I don't know any Affirming Catholics (myself included) who deny the virgin birth. Most I know also affirm the Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
In my more cynically liberal moods I wonder about it. I don't think it is incompatible with belief in Christ's divinity to question the VB, but I affirm it as part of the Church's teaching. How does that disqualify me from being a Catholic?
I know that from an orthodox RC position no-one outside the Catholic Church can be a Catholic. I accept that. It's those Anglicans who decide for themselves which bits of RC teaching to accept and write off their fellow-believers as 'not Catholic' that I object to. It's like those fundamentalists who see themselves as the only true Christians.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It seems God is putting our faith that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" to the test. If Anglicans can't believe the virgin birth or the resurrection, then our Catholicity is indeed in dire peril. Let's hope this salt will not lose its savor.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Belief in the Incarnation and the Resurrection is indeed the cornerstone of our faith. I'm not sure that the Virgin Birth should be in the same category, as it is merely one attempt to illustrate the mystery of the former. In the same way, as Bishop David Jenkins put it, there is much more to the Resurrection than the resuscitation of a bag of bones.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
In my experience, when someone says "The resurrection is more than mere resuscitation," they usually mean to say it was far less.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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sososlowly
Apprentice
# 17592
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Posted
quote:
If Anglicans can't believe the virgin birth or the resurrection, then our Catholicity is indeed in dire peril. Let's hope this salt will not lose its savor.
Two things:
(1) So far precisely no Anglicans have said that they don't believe in the virgin birth, so far as I can see in this thread. By resurrection I assume you imply bodily resurrection. Again, no deniers here so far. But I accept it's fun to construct straw men and throw stones at them.
(2) Be careful how you use the word "believe". Doubting stuff, still less questioning stuff, even Big Stuff (TM) like the resurrection, doesn't disqualify you from the status of a believer. I think we all doubt and question. It's just that some of us are more intellectually honest about it than others.
And in case it matters, I raise both those points from the perspective of someone who holds the traditional line on the virgin birth and Christ's bodily resurrection. Although only the second is a crucial plank of my faith.
Posts: 20 | From: Chichester, West Sussex | Registered: Mar 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Angloid
I don't understand how the concept of the Trinity works without the virgin birth. Clergy who disbelieve in the virgin birth need to explain to their congregations how it's possible to believe in one but not the other. Maybe it's time to revise the whole idea.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The disbelief in the Resurrection and Virgin Birth are very strong in the more conservative of all Protestants. Its a bit like describing a cat as a quadruped to make that a hallmark of Catholicity.
Jengie
[ 30. March 2013, 16:40: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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