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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Isiah 14:12 v. Revelations 22:16
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
Please forgive the stealth title, but I am interested in why the morning star (what we'd now call the planet Venus) is clearly a metaphor for Lucifer in Isiah and equally clearly a metaphor for Jesus in Revelations and 2 Peter (1:19). Different authors, different times, and different languages, I'm sure, are all in play here.
It's not like the morning star is a common biblical image. And so I don't think the contradiction is all that significant, but it is remarkable.
And so do the texts refer to the same celestial phenomena? If so, then were the Newer testament writers unaware of the Isiah passage? Or is it simply that as the third brightest object in the sky, Venus is an obvious place for poets to go?
Lastly, the planet Venus was commonly associated with Goddesses in surrounding cultures: Venus, Aphrodite, Isis, Inanna, Astarte and possibly even Asherah (if Asherah was, indeed, a form of Astarte). Is there a bit of a replacing of the feminine religious association of the morning star with the masculine forms of the judeo-christian mythos going on here?
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1730 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
What strikes me (right now) as particularly interesting is the fact that I've never heard this question asked before and have never thought of it myself.
I would guess it's a case of the Morning Star not having any set significance by the time of the NT writers, so it was an image they were free to apply to Jesus, despite the use Isaiah had made of it. That's just my guess!
My NAB has the following notes:
(on Isaiah 14.12) - "Morning Star: the king of Babylon. The Vulgate has 'Lucifer,' a name applied by the church Fathers to Satan."
(no note on 2 Peter 1.19)
(on Rev. 22.16) see note on Rev. 2.26-28.
(on Rev. 2.26-28, which has Jesus saying, "To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. Like clay vessels will they be smashed, just as I received authority from my Father. And to him I will give the morning star.") "The Christian who perseveres in faith will share in Christ's messianic authority (cf. Ps. 2.8-9) and resurrection victory over death, symbolized by the morning star; cf. Rev. 22.16"
Ps. 2.8-9, "A Psalm for a Royal Coronation," reads: "Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth. With an iron rod you shall shpherd them, like a clay pot you will shatter them."
(Curious that in Ps. and Rev. "ruling" and "shepherding" involve smashing one's subjects/sheep!)
From these examples - and the further example from Rev. 2 where the morning star is given by Christ and symbolizes, apparently, resurrection, it seems that the morning star has no set meaning even in the same book, but is an image these disparate visionaries used according to their different subjects and themes. But that's a first (and very amateur) stab at the question!
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
(For Doctor Who fans)
And...my brand new poetry blog
Posts: 6936 | From: Detroit, but currently in San Francisco Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Well, it is obviously used metaphorically and contextually by writers.
As applied to Satan, the context maybe suggests it is a metaphor for his former nature. Thus we could see the image as a positive one in scripture used to symbolize hope and reflected glory or blessing of God. It points also to hope. The 'daystar' is a fulfillment of a promise of God's blessing within, a way to describe blessing or annointing or reward as a future thing :2Pet 1:19."..until the morning star arises in your hearts."
[ 26. December 2009, 08:18: Message edited by: Jamat ]
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 1592 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
Please forgive the stealth title, but I am interested in why the morning star (what we'd now call the planet Venus) is clearly a metaphor for Lucifer in Isiah and equally clearly a metaphor for Jesus in Revelations and 2 Peter (1:19).
It's not a reference to Satan in Isaiah - it's a refernce to the King of Babylon (v.3). Morning Star may well have been one of the titles that the King of Babylon claimed for himself - next to the Sun and the Moon, it is one of the most significant lights in the heavenly realms ["Prince of Heaven" as it were].
Revelation and 2 Peter properly apply this title to the true Prince of the Heavenly Realms.
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2522 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
Thanks, all. A couple of follow-ups.
Why did St Jerome go with "Lucifer" then if it was a reference to the King of Babylon? Did he not know the association with the King of Babylon, or was he saying that the King of Babylon was Lucifer in some sense.
Does anyone happen to know the evidence that "Morning Star" was an epithet for the King of Babylon? Ishtar is the Goddess associated with Venus in the Babylonian religion, and the King of Babylon held his mandate via the cult of the god Assur or Asher, thus, "Morning Star" would be a strange title for the King. Then again royal titles tend to accumulate over time.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1730 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Dovetail
Shipmate
# 13234
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Posted
"Morning Star" has been used by very powerful leaders for centuries. A self glorification.
Basically saying I am a god-king.
They considered themselves to be outwardly human but divine.
In some case it might have been true.
Like the King of Babylon-satan or some powerful demon was possessing him. He was called a "morning star".
Sons of God and Morning Stars are synonymous.
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
So, Christ is a Son of God/Morning Star and
satan is a Son of God/Morning Star.
One obedient and exalted the other disobedient and condemned.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Rev 2:28
And I will give him the morning star (title Son of God).
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Morning Stars)
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Thru Christ you have been given the tools to fight other disobedient Sons of God.
Like Paul said your fight is not with flesh.
Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
(that would be the disobedient Sons of God who work through people, like the King of Babylon, who oppose the Will of God).
Posts: 82 | From: Out in the sticks | Registered: Dec 2007
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
[PEDANT]
There's only one Revelation according to John. If my complaint offends, understand that I picked up the pet peeve from a professor named Papandrea.
[/PEDANT]
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lazy man come to the table/make some food for those who ain't able
pretty winner swallow your pride/drink the ugly loser who for all died
make sure everyone gets some/then we'll see the kingdom...
--psalters Dumpster Divers
Posts: 7291 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
First of all, "morning star" aka Lucifer was not originally a negative title whether you take it to be a description of the king of Babylon or of Satan or both. I'm going to go with the Satan thing, since you can always deal with the king of Babylon as a pale reflection thereof...
By tradition, then, Satan was once a holy angel, and apparently one that was fairly important and in a position of trust and authority. Lucifer =light bearer, which would have been a perfectly fine name and/or title for a good individual--like "Judas" (=praise YHWH), the name got tarnished by the conduct of its owner, and was not originally pejorative.
After his fall, of course, the name gets tainted. And he winds up called by a newer, more appropriate title--Satan (=Accuser), among many others.
But what to do with the title "Lucifer"? Well, generally speaking, when someone commits treason, his titles and assets are confiscate and revert to the king. That's apparently what happened here. The original angelic Lucifer lost his titles and authority for treason to the Most High, and therefore they have reverted to the King.
And, as often happens, the king can re-grant those titles to someone more worthy (think of Duncan and the thane of Cawdor in Macbeth). In this case, the King has re-assigned that title to his own Son Jesus, the true Light Bearer.
(For a similar divine re-possession of symbolism, take a look at the history of snakes and dragons as symbols of --in the first case debased and demonic symbols of death, destruction and occult knowledge, in the last case divine and redeemed life, healing and wisdom.)
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 14313 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
More to the point of the thread, there's a strong metaphorical link in Revelation between Babylon and the Roman Empire. This is also true in 1 Peter. "Babylon" was just a sneaky way to talk about Rome.
I'm not sure if this relates to the Lucifer thing, but it's an interesting coincidence.
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lazy man come to the table/make some food for those who ain't able
pretty winner swallow your pride/drink the ugly loser who for all died
make sure everyone gets some/then we'll see the kingdom...
--psalters Dumpster Divers
Posts: 7291 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
...the King of Babylon held his mandate via the cult of the god Assur or Asher, thus, "Morning Star" would be a strange title for the King.
The patron deity of Babylon was Marduk, often called "Bel Marduk" which more or less just means Lord Marduk, who would have been assimilated with Baal in Canaan. Astrologically associated with the planet we call Jupiter, and with Thursday. But the cult of Ishtar was also big in Babylon and might in fact have been the most popular at the time of the Jewish Exile.
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
More to the point of the thread, there's a strong metaphorical link in Revelation between Babylon and the Roman Empire. This is also true in 1 Peter. "Babylon" was just a sneaky way to talk about Rome.
Yes, possibly, for the Revelation. Not so sure about Peter. Its quite possible he actually was in Babylon. There was a large Jewish community there, and it was an big trade partner for Syria and Palestine in Roman times. Not the city of Babylon as such, which was no longer important, but the province of Babylon, which contained many cities which were collectively called "Babylon" by the Jews at the time. At least one city was almost entirely Jewish and others had large Jewish populations (IIRC the most Jewish ones were the places we now call Kerbala and Fallujah) The largest city was Ctesiphon, the capital of the Parthian Empire, wich would have been commonly called "Babylon" at the time. And Ctesipohon is a lot nearer to Jerusalem than Rome is.
That's even more likely if the author is not the Apostle Peter (as most modern writers seem to believe). Peter was dead by the fall of Jerusalem in 70, but after the war Babylon became one of the main centres of Jewish scholarship. Hence the Babylonian Talmud, the most important work of Rabbinical Judaism from Roman times.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
Why did St Jerome go with "Lucifer" then if it was a reference to the King of Babylon? Did he not know the association with the King of Babylon, or was he saying that the King of Babylon was Lucifer in some sense.
The text makes it clear it is referring to the King of Babylon rather than Satan - there is nothing in the text to indicate a reference to Satan.
'Lucifer' is just a name that literally means "morning star", doesn't it - the real question is who associated 'Lucifer' with Satan?
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2522 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
Good point, Anselm. I should have just read the wikipedia article on Lucifer (I had glanced at it as I explored "morning star"). Apparently, that connection between Lucifer and Satan was already in place by the time of Tertullian.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1730 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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