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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Amen
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
I’m wondering if any of our resident liturgy experts can help with a verse. In the NASB translation of I Cor. 14:16 there is mention of “the Amen”. I dimly remember from my Greek class that the use of the definite article was meant to place emphasis on the noun that came after it. With this in mind I’m wondering if Paul is referring to a generic amen that the congregation would say at the end of any given prayer or if what he is referring to is a special part of the liturgy. If it is the second option what would be the modern day equivalent? Thanks in advance for any help.
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Was JSwift
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
This seems more suited to Kerygmania but, while it's here, does is the article actually present in the Greek or is it merely included in English translation for it to read better in English, and where its presence/absence doesn't carry the same significance of emphasis My Apostol includes it and doesn't italicise it, suggesting that it is indeed in the Greek text but I'm not quite sure what this means.
Sorry not to be of more help.
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Chorister
Defrocked
# 473
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Posted
If it is decided to keep the topic in Eccles as a more general discussion of the Amen, I'd be interested to find out how it is treated in churches, eg. sung settings, etc.
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"Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do without." - Confucius
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If it is decided to keep the topic in Eccles as a more general discussion of the Amen, I'd be interested to find out how it is treated in churches, eg. sung settings, etc.
We generally just sing it on a chord, with sopranos a third above the chanted prayer, as seen here. There are certain points in the Liturgy where the custom has developed of singing a double amen. At my parish, we've started doing one of those, but we've also added it to the dismissal (even though this isn't usual) because it sounds veyr final and seems to work. You can hear what I mean here.
It has also become customary to do certain of the litanies in a minor tonality, (the second short litany and the litany of thanksgiving after Communion), in which case, a version of the double amen is done, with the second amen taking you back into the major tonality to make esier the transition to whatever is sung next. I don't have a recording of us singing that but you can see it here. (The deacon/priest intone on G rather than F for minor litanies).
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
The definite article is present in the Greek.
He's writing about tongues and interpretation. If prayers in tongues are never interpreted, how can others say Amen
It's liturgical in the sense that the Amen is the proper response to a prayer said by another.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jengie Jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Been to my Greek interlinear. Yes it is "the amen". Actually it is one of those case where I would fault every translation I have heard. It says basically "how can one who is in the place of the instructed say the amen".
Normally I get it translated as "an outsider" or "unbeliever", but more correctly it would be translated enquirer or convert. It certainly does not sound like a casual visitor. More intriguingly from the worship perspective is the use of "place". Does this imply they were actually in a distinct part of the room used for worship and people in this part may have been restricted in how they participated but at the end of an act of worship expected to say "amen".
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
my blog and thesis progress
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
This is getting Kerygmaniacal.
I won't quibble too much with your preferred translation of ιδιωτου - I like the KJV unlearned.
I really don't think that τον τοπον refers to a specific space for saying prayers.
As they say context is everything, and I think it's as simple as Paul telling them not to babble on in tongues without interpretation because you can't say Amen if you don't understand.
That was, after all, part of the problem with the Church in Corinth.
I don't see it being about liturgy or liturgical space.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
I’m wondering if any of our resident liturgy experts can help with a verse. In the NASB translation of I Cor. 14:16 there is mention of “the Amen”. I dimly remember from my Greek class that the use of the definite article was meant to place emphasis on the noun that came after it. With this in mind I’m wondering if Paul is referring to a generic amen that the congregation would say at the end of any given prayer or if what he is referring to is a special part of the liturgy. If it is the second option what would be the modern day equivalent? Thanks in advance for any help.
If it is specific, the particular Amen that it might relate to is the Great Amen that comes at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer i.e. the centre of the liturgy.
My incumbent would like* our congregation to put some emphasis on this Amen because it is the congo's consent/agreement to the whole of the epiclesis, blessing and thanksgiving. I am not sure how to achieve this. It can be sung, of course, but does this achieve the effect?
*"and I agree with him" - best Proudieite tradition
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
If it is specific, the particular Amen that it might relate to is the Great Amen that comes at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer i.e. the centre of the liturgy.
That would have been my guess, if indeed it's referring to a piece of the liturgy, and then I would wonder if the eucharistic prayer had taken on enough of a form at that time that what we now call the Great Amen had been standardized.
But the question of whether this belongs here or in Keryg stands. I will check with the Keryg hosts and be back with the verdict.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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"Life is short, and we do not have much time to gladden the hearts of those who travel with us. So be swift to love, make haste to be kind."
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
If it is specific, the particular Amen that it might relate to is the Great Amen that comes at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer i.e. the centre of the liturgy.
That would have been my guess, if indeed it's referring to a piece of the liturgy, and then I would wonder if the eucharistic prayer had taken on enough of a form at that time that what we now call the Great Amen had been standardized.
That's precisely the question that needs to be asked, I think, Mamacita.
It's possible that this could refer to the Amen at the end of the anaphora, but it seems a bit tenuous. This seems to me like a good example of anachronistic transposition of current liturgical thought onto another place and time.
Some of the things that are coming to light today through the study of older liturgical manuscripts is just how flawed some older liturgical scholarship has been in assuming one element of the development of one rite would apply equally to another rite of the same period. With the greatest of respect, to make a similar assumption about the earliest worship of Christians 2000 years ago based on current thinking about the modern Roman Rite seems to lend itself much more freely to the same sort of error.
The modern Roman Rite (and modern rites of other western churches that were developed in conjunction with it/based on it), places great emphasis on the structural unity of the anaphora, with a single, final Amen at the end. However, before the revisions of the 20th century, the Roman Canon was actually a series of individual prayers, each with its own Amen, (all but the final of which were not heard because of the manner that the prayer was said). So the change in the modern Roman Rite seems to me to be born of a desire to return to the earlier, distinctively Roman liturgical tradition, for we see the same structural unity in the Roman anaphora of Hippolytus, and St Justin Martyr (also based in Rome), in his first apology to the emperor, describes what seems a single prayer with what may be termed a great Amen by the people. Yet, throughout history and in different places, there have been anaphoras which have actually comprised a series of individual prayers, each with its own Amen. In the Byzantine anaphora, the people give an Amen after the dominical words on both occasions, and there is a series of Amens at the epiklesis, culminating with a triple Amen, which is actually given much greater significance than the Amen at the conclusion of the anaphora, especially in places where the people chant it rather than the deacon. I've looked at the anaphora of the Alexandrian rite and managed to count twenty Amens throughout the course of it, with one after each line when it comes to the dominical words. I'm sure we could find numerous examples if we were to examine other rites, and that's just looking at the anaphora alone.
These variations are all the products of different development in different places over the course of 2000 years, but the way of talking and thinking of a 'Great Amen' is really the product of the liturgical movement in the west in the 20th century. I think we need to be wary of using our way of conceptualising what we see today in a local tradition and assume that this same way of thinking about worship automatically applies to the way Christians worshipped in 1st-century Corinth.
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Onoma Demosia
Shipmate
# 15727
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Posted
I do rather suspect there is a liturgical discussion to be had here. See also 2 Cor 1:20 which talks about the church using "the amen". In both cases the Greek neuter article is used and in both cases the manuscript tradition is consistent. From a very brief search, and acknowledging that I'm a very beginner Greek scholar, these seem to be the only uses of amen as a noun in the NT, and quite a distinct way of using the word.
So I'd guess that the Corinthian church may well have had some kind of liturgical response they called "the amen".
As for the place of the ιδιωτου, that's a singular noun - the place of "the amateur", rather than the place of "amateurs". So I'd go with +Chad in thinking it's probably not a physical place, but rather along the lines of "wearing the hat of...".
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
The consensus is that the discussion of the meaning of the I Cor. passage belongs in Kerygmania, so I'm going to transfer this thread. If anyone wants to start a discussion of 'Amens' in worship practices, please go ahead and start one. We'll leave the copy of the thread here for a few days if anyone wants to cut & paste some of the comments on liturgical practice.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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"Life is short, and we do not have much time to gladden the hearts of those who travel with us. So be swift to love, make haste to be kind."
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
If you look at the entire passage, it becomes clear that Paul is not talking about the prayers which are part of the regular liturgy.
Here is 1 Corinthians 14:10-16.
Paul is saying that the prayers that are said must be intelligible to the congregation, whether they are in the common language of the people or whether they are interpreted.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
My incumbent would like* our congregation to put some emphasis on this Amen because it is the congo's consent/agreement to the whole of the epiclesis, blessing and thanksgiving. I am not sure how to achieve this. It can be sung, of course, but does this achieve the effect?
*"and I agree with him" - best Proudieite tradition
Well, for starters, don't rush past it, which seems to be a fairly common practice nowadays. It's really a great place for the celebrant to genuflect, if they do that where you are, or at least make a deep bow. That recognizes that with the congregation's assent, the elements are indeed now the Body and Blood of Christ. With a good pause there, people are more likely to pay some attention.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Anyway, more to the point of this thread, now in Keryg:
Another suggestion for the "unlearned" or "those in the place of instruction" could be simply, those who aren't "in the know" re: the prayer in tongues - that is, those who don't have the gift of interpretation (or tongues for that matter).
Paul's concern for people being able to "say the Amen" in common worship is similar to a reason I've heard given for using written, rather than extemporaneous, prayers: if we're using a common prayer book, then (presumably) no one will pray a prayer everyone gathered can't say "Amen" to. I wonder if this passage was also appealed to when reformers wanted the liturgy in the common language of the people?
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
(For Doctor Who fans)
And...my brand new poetry blog
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